Is Brady the luckiest qb ever ?

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

51 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

First, I'm not saying anything close to Brady is a buffoon, so don't put words in my mouth.  Brady is very football-intelligent, and probably the most clutch QB ever.  I'm not trying to bash Brady.  He is one of the greatest of all time.

 

Second, winning is a team effort in the sport of football, so it's not the most important factor when talking about the best individual to ever play QB.  You're not going to say Charles Haley is the best individual to ever rush the passer.

 

Third, again, I'm not bashing Brady.  He is one of the greatest to ever play.  But in my humble opinion, Manning is the best to ever play QB.  Was he ever part of the greatest team, or dynasty, or even the greatest offense?  No, but he was the greatest to ever play QB.  His football-intelligence put him in a league of his own.

 

Big Belichick has great football intelligence (probably greater than that of even Manning) that doesn't make him a great player. I guess we value different things. I put winning above all. If 2 players have similar career statistics (which they do) then the tie breaker for me is who won the most. With that there is no argument it is Tom Brady. 

[Finball]

14 minutes ago, coltsorioles said:

And one other thing no one has mentioned is that Brady always has has a running game in the playoffs were peyton has not. 

 

Possibly bc it's not true, though Brady has had better run game than Peyton in the postseason.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 minute ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

Big Belichick has great football intelligence (probably greater than that of even Manning) that doesn't make him a great player.

 

Huh?  He's a coach, not a player... your argument does not compute? 

 

But I do agree that BB probably has the greatest football mind ever.  He just didn't play QB like Manning and Brady.

 

3 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

I guess we value different things. I put winning above all. If 2 players have similar career statistics (which they do) then the tie breaker for me is who won the most. With that there is no argument it is Tom Brady.

 

Fair enough.  That's your opinion.

 

Mine's different.

 

I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just giving my opinion.  And I hope anyone that thinks Brady is a better QB than Manning doesn't think they can change my mind. 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 hour ago, JimJaime said:

my point is be considered the greatest you have to show up at crunch crunch time in the playoffs.  Also like I said isn’t like I have a huge margin between the two I have Brady as 1a and Manning as 1B..

 

I understand.  A lot of people, including Colts fans, agree with you that Brady is the best ever.

 

I don't, but I'm not trying to change your mind.

 

I'm just giving my because people were saying he's the luckiest and the best QB ever.  I think he's the luckiest for having BB as his HC for a 17-year dynasty, but I think Manning is the best QB ever. 

[GoPats]

1 hour ago, 18to87 said:

 

I can't think of any time in the playoff careers of Manning or Brees where they have been as lucky as Brady was in those games. They should have both been losses on Brady's resume (both teams should have run the ball; Atlanta dropping an INT), regardless of how he inspired comebacks in each. 

 

You can say the same thing about the three Super Bowls the Patriots have lost. 

 

They're about a dozen plays away from being 0-8 in Super Bowls, and a dozen plays away from being 8-0 in them. 

 

 

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

26 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Huh?  He's a coach, not a player... your argument does not compute? 

 

But I do agree that BB probably has the greatest football mind ever.  He just didn't play QB like Manning and Brady.

 

 

Fair enough.  That's your opinion.

 

Mine's different.

 

I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just giving my opinion.  And I hope anyone that thinks Brady is a better QB than Manning doesn't think they can change my mind. 

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't understand your argument about how Manning's football IQ makes him the greatest player. I'm trying to understand why you make that the thing you value most. My question is what good is the knowledge if it doesn't lead to ultimate success? I hope you don't think I am being antagonistic, I really want to see your point of view. 

 

I love the Colts and believe that if it weren't for Brady and Belichick we would be talking right now about the early 2000's Colts were the greatest or one of the greatest dynasties in the history of football. That is one reason I don't buy into the argument people make that Manning had inferior teammates. I believe that things just lined up wrong for us in the time we had our greatest teams there was one team out there that was just a little better. That's why I like to call us the Atlanta Braves of the NFL. We had a great run and Manning had a great career. There is nothing our franchise has to be ashamed of about that time. I just think the Pats and Brady were just a little better.

 

I'm not really trying to change your mind. I love talking sports and hearing the views of others. It's great that we don't agree. This place would be pretty boring if we all said and believed the same things. 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

12 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

I'm trying to understand why you make that the thing you value most. My question is what good is the knowledge if it doesn't lead to ultimate success?

 

Let's look at wins and SBs another way.  Who is the best LT to ever play the game?

 

Is Joe Thomas not in that conversation?  Or Anthony Munoz?  Or Jonathan Ogden?  Or do we only consider LTs who won lots of games and SBs?

 

IMO, you give wins and SBs a little too much weight when talking about an individual because those are team accomplishments.

[BOTT]

11 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

And? Remind me again how dominating he has been in the playoffs? Rodgers is so overhyped. I would be more nervous about Brees than Rodgers. Just being picky here but there is no NFC Central. The Packers are in the North.

It was mostly a joke. But I feel if were starting a team from scatch I would probably lean towards Rodgers because I think his skill set is superior. The thought of him with someone like BB is scary.

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

4 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Let's look at wins and SBs another way.  Who is the best LT to ever play the game?

 

Is Joe Thomas not in that conversation?  Or Anthony Munoz?  Or Jonathan Ogden?  Or do we only consider LTs who won lots of games and SBs?

 

IMO, you give wins and SBs a little too much weight when talking about an individual because those are team accomplishments.

 

There is a little bit of a difference between a LT and a QB. QB is probably the most scrutinized and most praised position in all team sports. A QB touches the ball EVERY offensive play. A great QB can make up for the mistakes of a poor LT and still lead his team to victory. It doesn't work the other way though. Joe Thomas couldn't make up for the myriad of QB's that Cleveland put out on the field during his career no matter how great he played.

 

In my opinion, QB is a position where you do have to put weight on the wins and losses. That just comes with the job.

[ReMeDy]

Just now, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

A QB touches the ball EVERY offensive play.

Unless you're Jay Cutler doing this:

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

2 minutes ago, ReMeDy said:

Unless you're Jay Cutler doing this:

 

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

15 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

In my opinion, QB is a position where you do have to put weight on the wins and losses. That just comes with the job.

 

Ok, if you're going to give wins that much weight, then how many wins a year is a QB worth?

 

Given the records of their teams when they weren't playing due to injury or suspension, I could say that Manning is worth at least 8 wins a year, while Brady is worth at most 7.

 

We could go back and forth on that, but it's hard to argue that the Pats would have lost more games without Brady than the Colts would have without Manning.  That's more of a testament to the HC and complete-team-talent surrounding Brady, but again, wins is more of a team criteria.

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

6 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Ok, if you're going to give wins that much weight, then how many wins a year is a QB worth?

 

Given the records of their teams when they weren't playing due to injury or suspension, I could say that Manning is worth at least 8 wins a year, while Brady is worth at most 7.

 

We could go back and forth on that, but it's hard to argue that the Pats would have lost more games without Brady than the Colts would have without Manning.  That's more of a testament to the HC and complete-team-talent surrounding Brady, but again, wins is more of a team criteria.

 

I don't buy the notion that Brady has had superior talent around him the field than Manning did. Besides Moss and maybe Gronk has he had any other HOF caliber players on the field with him while they were in their prime?  Peyton Manning had Faulk, Harrison, Wayne, James, Freeney, and Mathis. I'm not saying all of them will get in the Hall , but they will definitely get very strong consideration. I left AV off the list because they both played with him on their teams. I will say that Brady had superior coaching but it isn't like Manning was coached by chumps. All of the coaches who coached Manning were winning coaches and Tony Dungy made the HOF. And before you say the others won because of Manning both Mora and Caldwell were winning coaches with teams not QB'd by Peyton Manning.

 

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 minute ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

I don't buy the notion that Brady has had superior talent around him the field than Manning did. Besides Moss and maybe Gronk has he had any other HOF caliber players on the field with him while they were in their prime?  Peyton Manning had Faulk, Harrison, Wayne, James, Freeney, and Mathis. I'm not saying all of them will get in the Hall , but they will definitely get very strong consideration. I left AV off the list because they both played with him on their teams. I will say that Brady had superior coaching but it isn't like Manning was coached by chumps. All of the coaches who coached Manning were winning coaches and Tony Dungy made the HOF. And before you say the others won because of Manning both Mora and Caldwell were winning coaches with teams not QB'd by Peyton Manning.

 

Then you've made my point for me.  If they had comparable talent and comparable coaching, and they were equal QBs, they should be worth the same number of wins for their team.

 

Or Brady should be worth more wins if he's better than Manning.

 

Yet the Pats had a better win % without Brady than the Colts did without Manning.

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

5 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Then you've made my point for me.  If they had comparable talent and comparable coaching, and they were equal QBs, they should be worth the same number of wins for their team.

 

Or Brady should be worth more wins if he's better than Manning.

 

Yet the Pats had a better win % without Brady than the Colts did without Manning.

 

I'm not saying the gap between them is huge. I don't know what analytics you use to determine how many wins they worth or if it is just your opinion. The fact that Belichick kept a better backup QB on the roster than Bill Polian is no way a reflection on Tom Brady's greatness. If anything it shows how inept both Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter were that they couldn't get the job done with the players on the roster. That would be like saying the Joe Montana wasn't great because the 49'ers kept winning after his backup came in. 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

2 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

I'm not saying the gap between them is huge.

 

Me either.

 

2 minutes ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

I don't know what analytics you use to determine how many wins they worth or if it is just your opinion.

 

This is all just my opinion.

 

I'm not saying Manning is light-years ahead of everyone else.  Manning is the best in my opinion, but it's close.  Guys like Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Favre, Elway, and Marino are only 2nd to Peyton by the slimmest of margins.  And how those guys are ranked is all opinion no matter who does the ranking or how they do it.  Like the difference between you and me, some will value certain criteria over others.

 

And that's just the modern era of QBs.  I never saw Unitas or Baugh play, so I can't really even claim Peyton is the greatest "of all time".  I mean, didn't Otto Graham win 7 championships? 

[18to87]

4 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

I don't buy the notion that Brady has had superior talent around him the field than Manning did. Besides Moss and maybe Gronk has he had any other HOF caliber players on the field with him while they were in their prime?  Peyton Manning had Faulk, Harrison, Wayne, James, Freeney, and Mathis. I'm not saying all of them will get in the Hall , but they will definitely get very strong consideration. I left AV off the list because they both played with him on their teams. I will say that Brady had superior coaching but it isn't like Manning was coached by chumps. All of the coaches who coached Manning were winning coaches and Tony Dungy made the HOF. And before you say the others won because of Manning both Mora and Caldwell were winning coaches with teams not QB'd by Peyton Manning.

 

 

 

Freeney and Mathis benefitted greatly from frequently playing with the lead. 

 

One thing being overlooked are the offensive lines. Brady has a reputation for often having all day to stand back there and throw. His lines can pass block and run block and benefit from the best playcalling the NFL may have ever seen. Manning is known for his quick release because for most of his career he had no choice - particularly post Edgerrin. PM was also in his Colts peak during a time where 3rd and 1 was a certified running down. Time and time again the OL failed here. The one year that the O-Line was very good (2006), they won the Superbowl.  

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

4 hours ago, 18to87 said:

 

Freeney and Mathis benefitted greatly from frequently playing with the lead. 

 

One thing being overlooked are the offensive lines. Brady has a reputation for often having all day to stand back there and throw. His lines can pass block and run block and benefit from the best playcalling the NFL may have ever seen. Manning is known for his quick release because for most of his career he had no choice - particularly post Edgerrin. PM was also in his Colts peak during a time where 3rd and 1 was a certified running down. Time and time again the OL failed here. The one year that the O-Line was very good (2006), they won the Superbowl.  

 

Manning's offensive lines couldn't have been too bad. He had fewer sacks and a lower sacks per season average than Brady. That can't all be attributed to "quick release" and according to a couple of different articles I've seen there isn't much of a difference in Brady and Manning's release time.

 

Career Sack Numbers (Reg Season)

 

Release time article 1

 

Release time article 2

[JimJaime]

18 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Let's look at wins and SBs another way.  Who is the best LT to ever play the game?

 

Is Joe Thomas not in that conversation?  Or Anthony Munoz?  Or Jonathan Ogden?  Or do we only consider LTs who won lots of games and SBs?

 

IMO, you give wins and SBs a little too much weight when talking about an individual because those are team accomplishments.

Aren’t all stats for a QB or any player really “team” stats? He only completes passes because the receiver got opened. He was only able to run the ball because the line did their job.. nothing in football is just on one player.. I mean how many INT do Brady and Manning have on their stats that were because of receivers letting the ball go right threw their hands? (I’m sure it’s a lot!)

 

my point is every stat is grey area.. Manning had superior receiver talent around him for most of his career if not all. (I’m sure we’re a few with less talent I just don’t remember it) so couldn’t we all say his stats were because he had HIF talent around him catching the ball? While Brady minus the Moss years has been doing it with JAG and Gronk lol..

 

Both guys are great!! Both are elite and upper echelon of the NFL.. and I doubt we ever have a true number one till many many years after they both retired and fans are less passionate about both.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

9 minutes ago, JimJaime said:

Aren’t all stats for a QB or any player really “team” stats?

 

my point is every stat is grey area.

 

That's very true.  That's why fans can go back-and-forth citing stats until the cows come home and nobody will change anybody elses' mind.

 

That's why I put more weight on the football-intelligence Manning used pre-snap.  That's not a stat.  It's purely individually up to the QB, and Manning was better at it than anybody.

 

Of course, I can't quantify that to prove my point.  It's just my opinion.  But it seems universally accepted that Manning was the best at it. 

[18to87]

5 hours ago, Mel Kiper's Hair said:

 

Manning's offensive lines couldn't have been too bad. He had fewer sacks and a lower sacks per season average than Brady. That can't all be attributed to "quick release" and according to a couple of different articles I've seen there isn't much of a difference in Brady and Manning's release time.

 

Career Sack Numbers (Reg Season)

 

Release time article 1

 

Release time article 2

 

They weren't bad - they just weren't built for January football. 

[JimJaime]

2 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

That's very true.  That's why fans can go back-and-forth citing stats until the cows come home and nobody will change anybody elses' mind.

 

That's why I put more weight on the football-intelligence Manning used pre-snap.  That's not a stat.  It's purely individually up to the QB, and Manning was better at it than anybody.

 

Of course, I can't quantify that to prove my point.  It's just my opinion.  But it seems universally accepted that Manning was the best at it. 

I don’t know, another area where they both be 1 and 1a. I mean Brady is by far (now) the best pre snap reader of D in the NFL and before it was him and Manning.  Unlike Manning I’d argue he had rely more on his football IQ since he was no where near as naturally gifted as Manning.  What makes Brady great is the fact he isn’t the best athlete or the most talented but dang he was the hardest working.  

[Lucky Colts Fan]

29 minutes ago, JimJaime said:

I don’t know, another area where they both be 1 and 1a. I mean Brady is by far (now) the best pre snap reader of D in the NFL and before it was him and Manning.  Unlike Manning I’d argue he had rely more on his football IQ since he was no where near as naturally gifted as Manning.  What makes Brady great is the fact he isn’t the best athlete or the most talented but dang he was the hardest working.  

 

I'd say they were about equal talent-wise.  I wouldn't call either physically "gifted", except for height and good arms.  They're both pocket-passing-statues.  Good arm strength, accuracy,  and pocket movement, but not fast or elusive or prolific scramblers.

 

I think Brady may actually be a little more restricted with play-calling from his coaches.  The Pats ran a lot of up-the-gut run plays using a fullback against KC.  His coaches come up with team-specific gameplans that vary greatly from week-to-week.  Whereas Manning was basically gameplanning in real-time during the game, usually in the hurry-up with 3 WRs, 1 TE, and 1 RB, and managed to have a successful passing game every week even though teams knew he was going to be passing.

 

In the game the other night, Brady was saying "kill, kill" at the line to call an audible, much like Luck does when he switches it from the first play to the second option.  Manning was calling all sorts of audibles before the snap sometimes changing the play two or three times before the snap, and then using fake audible calls to further confuse defensive players with high football-intelligence like Ray Lewis that were catching on to what he was doing.

 

I think Brady probably works harder on his body and fitness than any player in the NFL.  But I think Manning spent more time in the film-room improving his football intelligence.  Both are all-time greats, but I give the edge to Manning for his football intelligence.  He was basically an OC on the field.

[JimJaime]

1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

I'd say they were about equal talent-wise.  I wouldn't call either physically "gifted", except for height and good arms.  They're both pocket-passing-statues.  Good arm strength, accuracy,  and pocket movement, but not fast or elusive or prolific scramblers..

 

In the game the other night, Brady was saying "kill, kill" at the line to call an audible, much like Luck does when he switches it from the first play to the second option. 

Lol the NFL would disagree with you on athlete.. Manning drafted 1st round 1st pick.. (aren’t you glad the colts didn’t go Leaf lol) Brady 6th round pick..  Manning was expected (and rightfully so) be a gifted and amazing QB.. he was definitely physically gifted with QB skills. (I’m not a scramble QB fan they get hurt more and well usually less accurate passers)

 

also Kill kill was in KC because that field is super loud and trying audible out to anything outside of a second pre set play be a disaster. Manning did this as well.

 

tonyour point he was the OC.. if true then that’s a failure on the Colts then.. he should be able do pre snap reads and change the play.. but not make the play up himself.. maybe that’s why they were so much less successful in the playoffs? 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 hour ago, JimJaime said:

Lol the NFL would disagree with you on athlete.. Manning drafted 1st round 1st pick.. (aren’t you glad the colts didn’t go Leaf lol) Brady 6th round pick..  Manning was expected (and rightfully so) be a gifted and amazing QB.. he was definitely physically gifted with QB skills.

 

What are all these "QB skills" you're talking about?  Do you have examples of physical measurables with corresponding numbers that made Manning "gifted" compared to Brady?

 

They're both slow for QBs.  Neither has the strongest arm in the league, but can throw the ball pretty far.  They're both accurate.

 

I just don't think Manning was much of an "athlete".  He was a slow QB with a dad-bod.

 

  

 

Tom Brady is also a slow QB with a dad-bod.

 

[Gramz]

[Lucky Colts Fan]

13 minutes ago, Gramz said:

 

Is it the dad-bod pics?

 

I admit, the Manning vs Brady debate might have reached a new low...

 

[Gramz]

15 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Is it the dad-bod pics?

 

I admit, the Manning vs Brady debate might have reached a new low...

 

lol   sitting here laughing.   Better than being angry at something I guess.