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BlueShoe

If you're wondering how good Malik Hooker was this year

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10 minutes ago, CanuckColtsFan said:

Was he out for the Chiefs game? I saw Wilcox out there. 

 

Yes, he was out, foot injury. 

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20 minutes ago, CanuckColtsFan said:

Was he out for the Chiefs game? I saw Wilcox out there. 

 

Yeah. It was huge blow to our secondary. 

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He could of made such a difference in that chiefs game. The middle of the field wouldn’t of been so open. As good as he is he has to stay healthy.

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Well he doesnt have enough picks so he isnt good! :sarcasm:

 

Damn I love Malik Hooker!! I really hope we get a SS with better coverage skills to pair with him our S duo will be one of the best in the league. If by some miracle Collins hits FA I'd take him or I'd even take Johnathan Abram in the draft if he falls to one of the 2nd rounders.

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28 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

He could of made such a difference in that chiefs game. The middle of the field wouldn’t of been so open. As good as he is he has to stay healthy.

 

He was nicked up all year and still managed to play 14 games.  If I’m not mistaken, that was more than any other safety on the team.  

 

It’s a tough position to stay 100% all season.  

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9 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

He was nicked up all year and still managed to play 14 games.  If I’m not mistaken, that was more than any other safety on the team.  

 

It’s a tough position to stay 100% all season.  

 

Especially in this scheme. It was very hard to keep healthy safeties when Dungy was here too. We were often forced to play corners at safety. Remember Donald Strickland? I think playing him at safety so much ruined what would have been a stellar career at corner. 

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I look forward to a healthy player this fall

 

I see these stats and I am happy that the guy had some decent stats

 

But.........

 

We played largely the same defense last year, and he SEEMED to be more involved last year (before his injury)  

 

I hope he gets his elite speed back.

 

As mentioned a few times on the board...... it takes 2 years with many people..... especialy

if they tore both ACL and MCL (Like Hooker did)

 

If we actually get some pass rush, there will be some less accurate throws that ALL of our DBs will be able to improve their stats

 

 

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Not denying his effectiveness...but wonder how you objectively measure the coverage exposure of a deep safety.

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You don’t realize how good a safety is that plays the deep pass until they are out.  Kinda like how people took Bethea for granted at times here and underrated him.

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12 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

Not denying his effectiveness...but wonder how you objectively measure the coverage exposure of a deep safety.

 

Easy... He did not allow much success when the ball came his way. :) 

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Yeah he quietly shuts down a large portion of the backfield.  I feel like he was pretty dinged up as well in many games.  He just needs to work a bit on his tackling, and hopefully he will be 100% next year and make it through all 16 games.  Hopefully their safety core in general can stay healthy.  It was  a rough year with regards to injuries with Hooker being banged up  and missing some games, Clayton missing multiple games and being banged up in others and Mitchell getting injured.  

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good stuff, he is very good at shutting down his zone, these stats basically quantify that.  hes probably average at moving off his spot and making a play elsewhere, but he can learn to read the field better with more experience too

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2 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Well he doesnt have enough picks so he isnt good! :sarcasm:

 

Damn I love Malik Hooker!! I really hope we get a SS with better coverage skills to pair with him our S duo will be one of the best in the league. If by some miracle Collins hits FA I'd take him or I'd even take Johnathan Abram in the draft if he falls to one of the 2nd rounders.

 

Collins, IMO, is largely overrated.  And the biggest knock on his game is probably his coverage skills.  He's also a bad teammate (most of my friends are Giants' fans and do not like him much -- here's one example of him being a jerk: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2751070-landon-collins-calls-giants-teammate-eli-apple-a-cancer-during-interview).

 

Plus, Ballard loves Geathers (listen to his season ending press conference, he's very high on the guy).  Geathers is a very good player, he just has to be healthy (not just healthy enough to get on the field, but healthy when he's on the field as well).  Given that both Geathers and Hooker have had injury issues over the course of their short careers, I expect we'll do something to address the S position in the off-season (expecting Farley back healthy and resigning some of our own guys may be enough), but I don't foresee us doing in anything major or bringing in any huge names to replace Geathers.

 

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

 

He was nicked up all year and still managed to play 14 games.  If I’m not mistaken, that was more than any other safety on the team.  

 

It’s a tough position to stay 100% all season.  

 

He also came off a knee injury that most say takes a full 2 years to recover from.  I am optimistic about the way Hooker played this year and that he was on the field for the majority of games.

 

25 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

I look forward to a healthy player this fall

 

I see these stats and I am happy that the guy had some decent stats

 

But.........

 

We played largely the same defense last year, and he SEEMED to be more involved last year (before his injury)  

 

I hope he gets his elite speed back.

 

As mentioned a few times on the board...... it takes 2 years with many people..... especialy

if they tore both ACL and MCL (Like Hooker did)

 

If we actually get some pass rush, there will be some less accurate throws that ALL of our DBs will be able to improve their stats

 

 

 

We played a very different defense last year (we can just start at we switched from a 3-4 to a 4-3 cover 2 base defense).  And being more involved isn't always a great thing for DBs... he had more picks last year, but people were throwing is way more.  He lead the NFL in being targeted this year (only 1 ball every 75 snaps was thrown his way).  It could be teams this year just shied away from him due to them knowing how big a playmaker he can be, but is probably some combination of that plus our overall scheme and defensive improvement.

 

15 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

Not denying his effectiveness...but wonder how you objectively measure the coverage exposure of a deep safety.

 

As @BlueShoe said, Hooker did very well when the ball was thrown his way (1 completion allowed per 131 snaps).  I think the metric to look at, though, is targets per snap which Hooker also lead the league in (only once every 75 snaps were balls going directly his way).  I still think you pose a good question, though, as there are many times where Hooker is really kind of a 'clean-up' guy (like a 'sweeper' would be in soccer)... i.e., plays where he doesn't have a specific man responsibility but rather reads the QB and the offense to get to the right spot on the field.

 

Regardless, even though his INT numbers were down and at times he may have seemed a little slower than last year (probably true, especially early in the year when he was getting used to contact again after a long time rehabbing his knee), Hooker had a very good year and if he can stay healthy, he should be a very solid FS in this league for years to come.

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1 minute ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Collins, IMO, is largely overrated.  And the biggest knock on his game is probably his coverage skills.  He's also a bad teammate (most of my friends are Giants' fans and do not like him much -- here's one example of him being a jerk: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2751070-landon-collins-calls-giants-teammate-eli-apple-a-cancer-during-interview).

 

Plus, Ballard loves Geathers (listen to his season ending press conference, he's very high on the guy).  Geathers is a very good player, he just has to be healthy (not just healthy enough to get on the field, but healthy when he's on the field as well).  Given that both Geathers and Hooker have had injury issues over the course of their short careers, I expect we'll do something to address the S position in the off-season (expecting Farley back healthy and resigning some of our own guys may be enough), but I don't foresee us doing in anything major or bringing in any huge names to replace Geathers.

 

 

He also came off a knee injury that most say takes a full 2 years to recover from.  I am optimistic about the way Hooker played this year and that he was on the field for the majority of games.

 

 

We played a very different defense last year (we can just start at we switched from a 3-4 to a 4-3 cover 2 base defense).  And being more involved isn't always a great thing for DBs... he had more picks last year, but people were throwing is way more.  He lead the NFL in being targeted this year (only 1 ball every 75 snaps was thrown his way).  It could be teams this year just shied away from him due to them knowing how big a playmaker he can be, but is probably some combination of that plus our overall scheme and defensive improvement.

 

 

As @BlueShoe said, Hooker did very well when the ball was thrown his way (1 completion allowed per 131 snaps).  I think the metric to look at, though, is targets per snap which Hooker also lead the league in (only once every 75 snaps were balls going directly his way).  I still think you pose a good question, though, as there are many times where Hooker is really kind of a 'clean-up' guy (like a 'sweeper' would be in soccer)... i.e., plays where he doesn't have a specific man responsibility but rather reads the QB and the offense to get to the right spot on the field.

 

Regardless, even though his INT numbers were down and at times he may have seemed a little slower than last year (probably true, especially early in the year when he was getting used to contact again after a long time rehabbing his knee), Hooker had a very good year and if he can stay healthy, he should be a very solid FS in this league for years to come.

That would be a waste Geathers is a decent player but we should definitely be looking to upgrade. Nothing is worse than being content with average players. Collins is still a far superior player to Geathers.

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26 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Collins, IMO, is largely overrated.  And the biggest knock on his game is probably his coverage skills.  He's also a bad teammate (most of my friends are Giants' fans and do not like him much -- here's one example of him being a jerk: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2751070-landon-collins-calls-giants-teammate-eli-apple-a-cancer-during-interview).

 

Plus, Ballard loves Geathers (listen to his season ending press conference, he's very high on the guy).  Geathers is a very good player, he just has to be healthy (not just healthy enough to get on the field, but healthy when he's on the field as well).  Given that both Geathers and Hooker have had injury issues over the course of their short careers, I expect we'll do something to address the S position in the off-season (expecting Farley back healthy and resigning some of our own guys may be enough), but I don't foresee us doing in anything major or bringing in any huge names to replace Geathers.

 

 

He also came off a knee injury that most say takes a full 2 years to recover from.  I am optimistic about the way Hooker played this year and that he was on the field for the majority of games.

 

 

We played a very different defense last year (we can just start at we switched from a 3-4 to a 4-3 cover 2 base defense).  And being more involved isn't always a great thing for DBs... he had more picks last year, but people were throwing is way more.  He lead the NFL in being targeted this year (only 1 ball every 75 snaps was thrown his way).  It could be teams this year just shied away from him due to them knowing how big a playmaker he can be, but is probably some combination of that plus our overall scheme and defensive improvement.

 

 

As @BlueShoe said, Hooker did very well when the ball was thrown his way (1 completion allowed per 131 snaps).  I think the metric to look at, though, is targets per snap which Hooker also lead the league in (only once every 75 snaps were balls going directly his way).  I still think you pose a good question, though, as there are many times where Hooker is really kind of a 'clean-up' guy (like a 'sweeper' would be in soccer)... i.e., plays where he doesn't have a specific man responsibility but rather reads the QB and the offense to get to the right spot on the field.

 

Regardless, even though his INT numbers were down and at times he may have seemed a little slower than last year (probably true, especially early in the year when he was getting used to contact again after a long time rehabbing his knee), Hooker had a very good year and if he can stay healthy, he should be a very solid FS in this league for years to come.

 

 Thanks so much for this well thought out post.
Just gotta laugh at these Collins Junkies.

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collins is basically a better version of geathers.  neither was rated very high this year

 

there is a strong chance collins will be tagged anyway though 

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1 hour ago, GoColts8818 said:

You don’t realize how good a safety is that plays the deep pass until they are out.  Kinda like how people took Bethea for granted at times here and underrated him.

Bethea was awesome during his time here, I hate that we let him go

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18 minutes ago, colt18 said:

Bethea was awesome during his time here, I hate that we let him go

 

Loved that guy.  I’m glad he got paid, he wasn’t going to get that contract here.  Hard to believe he’s still playing.

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Hooker is good when Healthy... BUT... he's often injured and we need another stud to back him up or one who can take more of his snaps. 

Hooker is good, but we need one who's reliable  

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One of the most underappreciated guys on our defense is Mathias Farley. If he was healthy this year, we would have had very solid Safety depth and I think would have improved the overall play of our defense. He's not a pro bowler or a game changer, but he's one of those dependable guys that will at the very least execute consistently and make a good play every now and then.

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44 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

Loved that guy.  I’m glad he got paid, he wasn’t going to get that contract here.  Hard to believe he’s still playing.

Agreed.

 

I always believed Bethea/Sanders had the potential to be one of the GOAT safety tandems. Unfortunately, you know Sanders was often hurt himself. Bethea always did his job, a very good player.

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4 minutes ago, Shive said:

One of the most underappreciated guys on our defense is Mathias Farley. If he was healthy this year, we would have had very solid Safety depth and I think would have improved the overall play of our defense. He's not a pro bowler or a game changer, but he's one of those dependable guys that will at the very least execute consistently and make a good play every now and then.

 

Excellent point. 

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3 minutes ago, Shive said:

One of the most underappreciated guys on our defense is Mathias Farley. If he was healthy this year, we would have had very solid Safety depth and I think would have improved the overall play of our defense. He's not a pro bowler or a game changer, but he's one of those dependable guys that will at the very least execute consistently and make a good play every now and then.

 

I think lost in the midst of our divisional round hype, was the health of the secondary. Fairley went down, Mitchell got hurt, we eventually lost Hooker....It's amazing that Mahomes didn't absolutely kill us deep. We paid for it dearly for it over the middle, however.

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5 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

That would be a waste Geathers is a decent player but we should definitely be looking to upgrade. Nothing is worse than being content with average players. Collins is still a far superior player to Geathers.

 

In absolutely zero ways as far as football talent is concerned is Collins 'far superior to Geathers.'  He has stayed more healthy then Geathers and he comes from a bigger school and is more of a household name than Geathers are the only areas where he is superior to Geathers.  They both played 12 games last year, missing 4 due to injury.  Geathers had 89 tackles, 1 FF, 3 PDs, 0 INTs ... Collins, in a different scheme, had 96 tackles, 1 FF, 4 PDs, 0 INTs (more or less as close to the same stat line as possible for 2 players on different teams playing the same position).

 

Geathers was named a team captain for Indy last year.  Collins is disliked by most of his teammates because he is a bad teammate.  Watch Inman's interview on the Herd yesterday where he talks about locker room/chemistry/team atmosphere.  He flat out says the Colts and Patriots are about building a culture of a team that cares about eachother and basically every player knows the sum is greater than each individual part.  Collins has no problem throwing his teammates under the bus if it makes him look better to the media (for the short term... Collins and the NYG looked pretty dumb after Eli Apple was basically ridden out of town by Collins and  going on to be a stud for NO).

 

4 hours ago, colt18 said:

Bethea was awesome during his time here, I hate that we let him go

 

I always liked Bethea.  Great player and a great Colt.  I think part of him being let go was just trying to clean house from the mess Polian left Grigs and Co in (funny, now we're stuck trying to clean up some of Grigs' mess) and part was he probably didn't want to sacrifice his salary as part of a rebuilding team.

 

4 hours ago, ThorstenDenmark said:

Hooker is good when Healthy... BUT... he's often injured and we need another stud to back him up or one who can take more of his snaps. 

Hooker is good, but we need one who's reliable  

 

Hooker played 14 games this year and did very well.  That is pretty good in terms of health, and we're not likely to find a back up who will be near as good of a player as Hooker who can also play 16 games a year.  As mentioned previously by many posters, the injury from his rookie year normally takes 2 full years to recover from, so the fact he only missed 2 games 1 year out is promising.  The only way we're going to get someone as talented as him is to either draft high or break the bank in free agency (and both of those are probably bad ideas and not likely to provide us an improvement of Hooker).

 

4 hours ago, Shive said:

One of the most underappreciated guys on our defense is Mathias Farley. If he was healthy this year, we would have had very solid Safety depth and I think would have improved the overall play of our defense. He's not a pro bowler or a game changer, but he's one of those dependable guys that will at the very least execute consistently and make a good play every now and then.

 

I agree.  Farley is a very solid and reliable player.  That said, everyone is knocking Hooker and Geathers on their health issues.  Farley missed a 11 games with his own injury problems.  Hopefully he comes back fully healthy and can stay that way.  If so, we may have no real need to address safety in the off-season and can rely on what we already have. 

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1 hour ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

In absolutely zero ways as far as football talent is concerned is Collins 'far superior to Geathers.'  He has stayed more healthy then Geathers and he comes from a bigger school and is more of a household name than Geathers are the only areas where he is superior to Geathers.  They both played 12 games last year, missing 4 due to injury.  Geathers had 89 tackles, 1 FF, 3 PDs, 0 INTs ... Collins, in a different scheme, had 96 tackles, 1 FF, 4 PDs, 0 INTs (more or less as close to the same stat line as possible for 2 players on different teams playing the same position).

 

Geathers was named a team captain for Indy last year.  Collins is disliked by most of his teammates because he is a bad teammate.  Watch Inman's interview on the Herd yesterday where he talks about locker room/chemistry/team atmosphere.  He flat out says the Colts and Patriots are about building a culture of a team that cares about eachother and basically every player knows the sum is greater than each individual part.  Collins has no problem throwing his teammates under the bus if it makes him look better to the media (for the short term... Collins and the NYG looked pretty dumb after Eli Apple was basically ridden out of town by Collins and  going on to be a stud for NO).

Umm you do know Collins career is more than one season right? He may have had a bad season but hes been healthier all his career hes 100 times better in coverage Geathers has a career number of like 9 passes defensed and 0 picks. He may not be liked by his team but that doesnt make him more talented not even close collins also isnt the only possible upgrade.

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That's weird, because I thought many of the delusional expert wannabe's that populate this board were telling me how he wasn't playing well this year.

 

Another huge whiff for them.....yet again.

 

Now que said experts, who will now come on here after seeing this news, and tell us that PFF is wrong and they, the anonymous message board poster, actually know better then the entity that is paid and in the business of conducting such analysis.

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Well, I can't make heads or tails of those numbers, and since he plays so deep, how many balls would target him anyway? 

 

I'd like to see a stat about how many passes he broke up.  That might be a better indication of his impact per game. 

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1 hour ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Umm you do know Collins career is more than one season right? He may have had a bad season but hes been healthier all his career hes 100 times better in coverage Geathers has a career number of like 9 passes defensed and 0 picks. He may not be liked by his team but that doesnt make him more talented not even close collins also isnt the only possible upgrade.

 

Collins has been healthier.  I gave you that.  That is about the only area where he is 'far superior' to Geathers.  He may be a tad better, but Geathers is a very good football player IF/when he is healthy.  Collins also came into the league super-hyped, straight from a very good Alabama team and he plays in NY, so he gets more coverage from the media (the fact that he was voted by fans into the pro-bowl this year given his performance is a testament to that -- there are several players at that position who are far more deserving based on their on-field performance in the NFC this past year).  

 

They play in two totally different systems.  Geathers is not used in coverage remotely close to how Collins is used in coverage.  Collins had one big year with PDs and INTs (2016), otherwise his numbers per game are extremely similar to Geathers.

 

It seems like Ballard and Reich are building a culture here in Indy.  Geathers seems to fit that mold of a team-first player, a leader, a stand-up guy.  Collins is far from that.  Collins is also far from being 'far superior' of a football player than Geathers, he's just been able to keep himself on the field more.  We don't need him here.  I am not saying we shouldn't do something to address the S position in the off-season, especially if the FO isn't convinced we'll have full health from Geathers, Farley and Hooker.... but it's likely we can bring in a player who is comparable (or maybe better for our scheme) than Collins who won't break the bank and who we won't have to worry about bringing problems into the locker room.

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29 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Collins has been healthier.  I gave you that.  That is about the only area where he is 'far superior' to Geathers.  He may be a tad better, but Geathers is a very good football player IF/when he is healthy.  Collins also came into the league super-hyped, straight from a very good Alabama team and he plays in NY, so he gets more coverage from the media (the fact that he was voted by fans into the pro-bowl this year given his performance is a testament to that -- there are several players at that position who are far more deserving based on their on-field performance in the NFC this past year).  

 

They play in two totally different systems.  Geathers is not used in coverage remotely close to how Collins is used in coverage.  Collins had one big year with PDs and INTs (2016), otherwise his numbers per game are extremely similar to Geathers.

 

It seems like Ballard and Reich are building a culture here in Indy.  Geathers seems to fit that mold of a team-first player, a leader, a stand-up guy.  Collins is far from that.  Collins is also far from being 'far superior' of a football player than Geathers, he's just been able to keep himself on the field more.  We don't need him here.  I am not saying we shouldn't do something to address the S position in the off-season, especially if the FO isn't convinced we'll have full health from Geathers, Farley and Hooker.... but it's likely we can bring in a player who is comparable (or maybe better for our scheme) than Collins who won't break the bank and who we won't have to worry about bringing problems into the locker room.

I'm done arguing with you a simple Google search will show hes a better player. hell ignore the horrible injury seasons of Geathers and still in his good seasons hes still out played in every statistical category by Collins not by much this year but still better. The other years it's not as close as you are trying to make it. As I said the position needs an upgrade that doesn't mean Collins is the only option but being content with him is dumb and something only a homervos happy with. I'm not saying Geathers is a bad guy or that he is horrible he's just not some all pro safety the colts can't move on from like so many here seem to think. I don't have any idea why so many of you wanna fully invest in a guy with a bad neck at one of the hardest hitting positions but you guys think what you want.

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3 hours ago, MacDee1975 said:

That's weird, because I thought many of the delusional expert wannabe's that populate this board were telling me how he wasn't playing well this year.

 

Another huge whiff for them.....yet again.

 

Now que said experts, who will now come on here after seeing this news, and tell us that PFF is wrong and they, the anonymous message board poster, actually know better then the entity that is paid and in the business of conducting such analysis.

We are truly lucky to have so many hall of fame general managers who like to post here!

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Some people just don't get the concept of doing your job. A player's impact doesn't have to be reflected in the stat line

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From actually watching the games, Hooker did not have a good year. I don't need a spread sheet to tell me my eyes were incorrect

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7 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I'm done arguing with you a simple Google search will show hes a better player. hell ignore the horrible injury seasons of Geathers and still in his good seasons hes still out played in every statistical category by Collins not by much this year but still better. The other years it's not as close as you are trying to make it. As I said the position needs an upgrade that doesn't mean Collins is the only option but being content with him is dumb and something only a homervos happy with. I'm not saying Geathers is a bad guy or that he is horrible he's just not some all pro safety the colts can't move on from like so many here seem to think. I don't have any idea why so many of you wanna fully invest in a guy with a bad neck at one of the hardest hitting positions but you guys think what you want.

 

We had this conversation in another topic a while back, it’s a lot closer than you make out if you really dig into the stats (comparing volume stats is not the way as hint). Either way its not just a simple “google search”, proper analysis never is.

 

Geathers not staying healthy is his main issue.

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55 minutes ago, Pacergeek said:

From actually watching the games, Hooker did not have a good year. I don't need a spread sheet to tell me my eyes were incorrect

Your eyes might be fine, but your thought process on the other hand.....

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1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

We had this conversation in another topic a while back, it’s a lot closer than you make out if you really dig into the stats (comparing volume stats is not the way as hint). Either way its not just a simple “google search”, proper analysis never is.

 

Geathers not staying healthy is his main issue.

Fully agree on the last part you can be the best player in the league at your position but if you are never healthy you have limited value, ask Bob Sanders.

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He's a ballhawk, terrific player and ALMOST reminds of me ed reed at times. Add landon collins and we're set in the backfield! Hopefully he can heal from his injuries this off season.  

 

Also, that font is absolutely hideous :facepalm:

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