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John Waylon

Antonio Brown? Doubt it.

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There is a big difference in drafting a young man who has had issues then signing a guy like brown. Someone coming out of the draft is going to be on a rookie contract. There is less risk. 

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36 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Ehh... They took great care to check off Peters' character before drafting him. If they weren't confident that he'd fly straight they wouldn't have drafted him.

 

Saying 'character matters most' doesn't mean they'll never invest in a player with character concerns. It means they need to check those character concerns off before investing in him.

 

And the calculus for the 2015 Chiefs was different than it was for the 2018 Colts. They had a well established locker room and coaching staff, and a pretty good roster. They had more room to take a chance on a questionable player in the first round.

 

Obviously Ballard would do his due diligence on any AB or Bell move (chances being slim to none regardless). I just don't think we can apply "character matters most" to drafting a great talent/decent character player. When you are just looking to be able to check off the character box, that means you are valuing other things about that player higher.

 

And there are recent picks Ballard has made where that character box was likely checked off first...and then the rest came. There's nothing wrong with that approach either...but it's a different way of doing it.

 

And then you look at Jalen Collins. He doesn't have character issues, but he does have red flags. Ballard scooped him up and is giving him a chance to show the character that he wants while already with the team. Not nearly the same move that we are talking about it...because of the low risk involved. But I do think it points to Ballard having a diverse approach to scouting and player acquisition...as opposed to some set mantra. 

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I’d like to see us eventually pick up hunt over bell since we’re talking about second chances. Way less miles. 

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19 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

Obviously Ballard would do his due diligence on any AB or Bell move (chances being slim to none regardless). I just don't think we can apply "character matters most" to drafting a great talent/decent character player. When you are just looking to be able to check off the character box, that means you are valuing other things about that player higher.

 

And there are recent picks Ballard has made where that character box was likely checked off first...and then the rest came. There's nothing wrong with that approach either...but it's a different way of doing it.

 

And then you look at Jalen Collins. He doesn't have character issues, but he does have red flags. Ballard scooped him up and is giving him a chance to show the character that he wants while already with the team. Not nearly the same move that we are talking about it...because of the low risk involved. But I do think it points to Ballard having a diverse approach to scouting and player acquisition...as opposed to some set mantra. 

 

It's a semantics disagreement. I'm just saying that, no matter the talent, if they don't check off the character / red flag concerns, they're not going to take a chance on the player. First round, 7th round, UDFA, free agency, whatever... if they're not convinced the player will fit the culture, work hard, be available, etc., they aren't going to pull the trigger on him, no matter how good he is.

 

In my mind, that means character is more important than talent, if we're being forced to rank them in order.

 

Of course, if the player isn't good enough, there's no point in checking off the character / red flag concerns, because you're not interested in the first place.

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2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It's a semantics disagreement. I'm just saying that, no matter the talent, if they don't check off the character / red flag concerns, they're not going to take a chance on the player. First round, 7th round, UDFA, free agency, whatever... if they're not convinced the player will fit the culture, work hard, be available, etc., they aren't going to pull the trigger on him, no matter how good he is.

 

In my mind, that means character is more important than talent, if we're being forced to rank them in order.

 

Of course, if the player isn't good enough, there's no point in checking off the character / red flag concerns, because you're not interested in the first place.

 

I agree with this. I just think some people are interpreting this as Ballard would never even look at a player with perceived character issues.

 

Look at Doyel's artice in the Indy Star...he actually says that Ballard would lose rather than bring in a player like AB. That's silly...and obviously a dumb false choice Doyel set up...but I think some people are taking it a bit too far.

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39 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

I agree with this. I just think some people are interpreting this as Ballard would never even look at a player with perceived character issues.

 

Look at Doyel's artice in the Indy Star...he actually says that Ballard would lose rather than bring in a player like AB. That's silly...and obviously a dumb false choice Doyel set up...but I think some people are taking it a bit too far.

 

Well, rule #1 is pay zero attention to Doyel.

 

But yeah, I agree, things like this always get pushed out to the extremes, and the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

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2 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

I did not say "character doesn't matter" to Ballard...it obviously does. I just said there are instances where it didn't matter most.

The one thing that is not brought up is Ballard was never a GM before joining the Colts.

What he learned he learn from experience but he never made the final choices with any other team. It stands to reason he learned from is past.

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11 hours ago, Narcosys said:

Previous experience does not dictate the future.

 

How old is Brown and who was the steelers leading receiver this year?

And yet he produced 15 TD's, and gets constant double teamed. A rookie isn't going to take pressure off of Ebron or T.Y., but no team will have enough players to cover Bell, T.Y., Brown and Ebron, and a great OL that gives Luck time to throw or open up holes.

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11 hours ago, Finball said:

 

He did feud with with lot of players and even his own staff in Denver and of course got caught (well assistant got caught) in videotaping practices of his teams opponent.

And the thought around the league was he had grown up and matured from that.  Clearly he hadn’t but those were not thought to be an issue anymore.  

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16 hours ago, Pacergeek said:

Culture and great locker room guys are way overrated. How did culture help when we were getting embarrassed by KC. We need difference makers, and they might carry some baggage. Big deal. 

How did those difference makers help out the Steelers this year?

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7 hours ago, aavmarine said:

And yet he produced 15 TD's, and gets constant double teamed. A rookie isn't going to take pressure off of Ebron or T.Y., but no team will have enough players to cover Bell, T.Y., Brown and Ebron, and a great OL that gives Luck time to throw or open up holes.

We couldn't afford both unless we put ourselves in the same situation that we did that caused us to release manning. No thank you. You can't say a rookie can't because look what numerous rookies have done lately, OBJ, Gordon, Calloway. Rookies can tear it up so long as you draft good ones.

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21 hours ago, TyTD13 said:

I’d like to see us eventually pick up hunt over bell since we’re talking about second chances. Way less miles. 

 

I’d like to see this too, the guy has made stupid mistakes, but he’s young and can still turn things around...and he’s a special talent obviously.

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7 hours ago, NorthernBlue said:

How did those difference makers help out the Steelers this year?

bell actually wants to come here, he did help the steelers when he played

 

the brown situation is complicated.  hes not a bad guy, but he is stuck with ben and its understandable when guys cant get along with him.  that guy is terrible 

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55 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

bell actually wants to come here, he did help the steelers when he played

 

the brown situation is complicated.  hes not a bad guy, but he is stuck with ben and its understandable when guys cant get along with him.  that guy is terrible 

Yeah.  Bell wants to come here and he's the much younger player with a year off from getting hit.  Brown wants the 49'ers.  It's interesting to see players making their preferences known.  Bell just wants to be paid what he's worth.  Nothing wrong with that.  

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12 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Bell just wants to be paid what he's worth.  Nothing wrong with that.  

 

He wants MORE than he is worth.

 

You think he's worth more than he actually is.

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8 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

He wants MORE than he is worth.

 

You think he's worth more than he actually is.

he will have to accept what hes offered this time, or retire

 

maybe we dont offer what hes looking for and neither does anyone else.  what happens then?

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15 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

He wants MORE than he is worth.

 

You think he's worth more than he actually is.

I never said he's worth more than he actually is.  The marketplace will determine what he's worth.  Sorry. 

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4 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

he will have to accept what hes offered this time, or retire

 

maybe we dont offer what hes looking for and neither does anyone else.  what happens then?

 

Bell:  "Can someone throw me a bone, here."

 

NFL:  "You wanna play frisbee, first?"

 

Not-a-good-retrieve.gif

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9 minutes ago, #12. said:

That was very interesting. It does make you think he could work out here pretty well. I think it’s more in what we would have to give up to get him. He doesn’t seem like a bad dude. I think that Pitt locker room is just a mess.

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Like I said, Luck's a different kind of guy.  I think Brown would work fine with Luck. 

 

Would the Steelers trade Brown to another AFC playoff team, though?  Would they trade him to the Pats?  I doubt it.  Would they trade him to the Chiefs or Colts?  I don't know.

 

If a trade were possible, from the Colts perspective it would probably be more about the draft pick, money and his age than anything locker room related.  

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Bell:  "Can someone throw me a bone, here."

 

NFL:  "You wanna play frisbee, first?"

 

Not-a-good-retrieve.gif

 

or he will just take what he can get.  its like people want this guy to be out of the league though he did nothing wrong.  cousins and palmer both fought back after being tagged too, and fans didnt turn on them like they did to bell

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1 minute ago, aaron11 said:

or he will just take what he can get.

 

That was kind of my point.  He'll have to settle for whatever he's offered.

 

1 minute ago, aaron11 said:

cousins and palmer both fought back after being tagged too, and fans didnt turn on them like they did to bell

 

They didn't sit out an entire season.

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2 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

they didn't sit out an entire season.

palmer refused to play for them anymore

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1 minute ago, aaron11 said:

 

or he will just take what he can get.  its like people want this guy to be out of the league though he did nothing wrong.  cousins and palmer both fought back after being tagged too, and fans didnt turn on them like they did to bell

 

Speaking for myself, and speaking to what other people have said, I don't get where you're getting this impression that people want Bell out of the league. That's an exaggeration, at best.

 

Cousins 'fought back' by signing his tender and playing out the tag twice. I'm not sure what you mean regarding Palmer; he was never tagged (by my recollection and quick research), and he took plenty of criticism when he demanded a trade and threatened to retire.

 

(Also, Palmer reportedly had open, honest discussions with the owner of the team, explaining how he felt, before asking to be traded. Then, when they wouldn't trade him, he retired. He was very clear about the fact that he didn't want to play for the Bengals anymore, and his dispute with them was never about money.)

 

Bell refused to show up, while giving indications along the way that he would show up, but eventually never did. It's in no way the same situation as Cousins or Palmer.

 

And before my comments get mischaracterized, let me be clear that I have no beef with Bell refusing to sign the tag, or turning down the Steelers contract offers. He's within his rights to do so. I have more of a beef with his teammates and other players who expressed displeasure with him, but at the same time make senseless noise about guaranteed contracts. 

 

However, I do think he handled the situation poorly by not being clear about his intentions, whether he was going to show up or not; and I definitely think he wants more money than the market will bear, so the whole thing seems kind of pointless.

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18 minutes ago, #12. said:

Like I said, Luck's a different kind of guy.  I think Brown would work fine with Luck. 

 

Would the Steelers trade Brown to another AFC playoff team, though?  Would they trade him to the Pats?  I doubt it.  Would they trade him to the Chiefs or Colts?  I don't know.

 

If a trade were possible, from the Colts perspective it would probably be more about the draft pick, money and his age than anything locker room related.  

 

 

My guess it would be a trade to the NFC.  Just like the Giants would prefer to send OBJ to he AFC.  I really don't see a No. 1 pick being traded though.  The Steelers lost some leverage after Rooney's remarks IMO.  His salary is certainly affordable for us.  His age?  I think he would be very productive for three years.  I think he would be happy on the Colts.  Especially with TY at his side.  He needs some fresh air.  

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17 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Speaking for myself, and speaking to what other people have said, I don't get where you're getting this impression that people want Bell out of the league. That's an exaggeration, at best.

 

Cousins 'fought back' by signing his tender and playing out the tag twice. I'm not sure what you mean regarding Palmer; he was never tagged (by my recollection and quick research), and he took plenty of criticism when he demanded a trade and threatened to retire.

 

(Also, Palmer reportedly had open, honest discussions with the owner of the team, explaining how he felt, before asking to be traded. Then, when they wouldn't trade him, he retired. He was very clear about the fact that he didn't want to play for the Bengals anymore, and his dispute with them was never about money.)

 

Bell refused to show up, while giving indications along the way that he would show up, but eventually never did. It's in no way the same situation as Cousins or Palmer.

 

And before my comments get mischaracterized, let me be clear that I have no beef with Bell refusing to sign the tag, or turning down the Steelers contract offers. He's within his rights to do so. I have more of a beef with his teammates and other players who expressed displeasure with him, but at the same time make senseless noise about guaranteed contracts. 

 

However, I do think he handled the situation poorly by not being clear about his intentions, whether he was going to show up or not; and I definitely think he wants more money than the market will bear, so the whole thing seems kind of pointless.

palmer was never tagged, my bad

 

him and cousins both definitely made impact on the locker room though, and thats what everyone seems to be so worried about here.  fans didnt mind bringing those guys in after that though

 

bell  apparently wants to come here, i dont see the locker room stuff following him

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13 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

palmer was never tagged, my bad

 

him and cousins both definitely made impact on the locker room though, and thats what everyone seems to be so worried about here.  fans didnt mind bringing those guys in after that though

 

bell  apparently wants to come here, i dont see the locker room stuff following him

 

Neither of those guys were pursued by the Colts, neither of them have anything to do with the Colts locker room or approach. It's largely irrelevant, and seems like you're grasping at straws.

 

And ultimately, the full stop on Bell is that he wants way more money than anyone is going to give him. Certainly way more than the Colts will give him.

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53 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

palmer refused to play for them anymore

 

He forced a trade, didn't he? Told them he wouldn't play for them anymore. They were lucky to get the pick they got...stupid Raiders.

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1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

That was very interesting. It does make you think he could work out here pretty well. I think it’s more in what we would have to give up to get him. He doesn’t seem like a bad dude. I think that Pitt locker room is just a mess.

 

We can only guess...but I think AB and TY being here would help. I don't see PIT trading him to the Colts though. 

 

Sounds like he will likely be in SF next season. 

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Neither of those guys were pursued by the Colts, neither of them have anything to do with the Colts locker room or approach. It's largely irrelevant, and seems like you're grasping at straws.

 

And ultimately, the full stop on Bell is that he wants way more money than anyone is going to give him. Certainly way more than the Colts will give him.

its not grasping at straws.  they did more to the locker room than bell ever did, but no one cared when it was time for them to sign on a new team

 

the locker room thing has been brought up many times on this forum as a reason to not sign bell, but he didint even do that much 

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2 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

its not grasping at straws.  they did more to the locker room than bell ever did, but no one cared when it was time for them to sign on a new team

 

the locker room thing has been brought up many times on this forum as a reason to not sign bell, but he didint even do that much 

 

I don't agree regarding Cousins. I'm not sure why you think his actions impacted the locker room, but I don't think they did.

 

And as I mentioned, Palmer got plenty of criticism when he demanded a trade, then retired, then unretired once he was traded (to the Raiders, of all teams). 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/899924-oakland-raiders-5-reasons-why-the-carson-palmer-trade-is-a-bad-move

Quote

 

Mike Freeman of CBS Sports said, “There are players around the league ripping Palmer as a chump who was afraid to take on the challenge of sticking with the Bengals and making them good again.

 

"Some players are calling him the word that is slang for a cat. They also feel he’s getting a pass from the media," he said. 

 

 

There was also a different dynamic in which Palmer was positioned against a dumpster fire of a franchise, which found a serviceable QB and looked like they were better off by trading him. And then a couple years later, it was obvious that the Raiders didn't benefit from the trade. I think you're forgetting some of the color commentary that surrounded the Palmer saga. 

 

And neither of those situations had anything to do with the Colts. So Colts fans saying 'we don't want Bell or Brown' is completely separate from Cousins or Palmer, and I'm not sure why you're trying to make a connection between the two.

 

Also, both Bell and Brown clearly had a negative impact on their locker room this season, and it's not the first time for either of them. The idea that they'd have a negative impact on a new locker room isn't something people are making up, there's history to support it.

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On 1/15/2019 at 12:27 AM, GoColts8818 said:

There weren’t questions about McDaniels character until he backed out on the Colts.  

 

He didnt draft Hill he wasn’t the General Manger.

What about him?  His character wasn’t in question until he backed out on the Colts.

His character WAS in question even before the hire. This is the same guy who burned down Denver's walls.

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Besides the Facebook live incident. Brown isn’t a locker room problem. His issue was with management and Big Jen. I don’t disagree with him at all. He was thrown under the bus by his QB. The mistake wasn’t his fault. Now him being on this team is a different story. I’m all for whatever helps the team. I like building through the draft though. Cheaper and better overall. You get younger players to develop through your system. 

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Strange thread....    posters complaining about Carson Palmer forcing his way out of Cincinnati?

 

Seriously?      What did he do wrong?     He played for them for how many years?    Seven.

 

And some posters say some players think of Palmer as a Kitty Cat?    Really?     I think any player who thinks of Palmer that way is himself a Kitty Cat if he can't put his name to that.    No name to me equals no credibility.    What Palmer did helps all players and some players take anonymous shots at him?     Bad, bad look.

 

As for Antonio Brown.....    no less a person than Bruce Arians, who was on the Steelers staff drafted Brown is publicly calling Brown a "Diva" and says he's not the same guy that the team once drafted.

 

That's Bruce Arians who drafted Tyron Mathieu and Robert Nndici (sp?)...   two well known head cases....   so Bruce isn't afraid of those type of players if he thinks he can handle them....   so when he's calling a guy a "Diva" you know he thinks Brown is a bad guy these days.

 

Here is the Arians story.      By the way,  Brown is now publically taking shots at both Arians and Emanuel Sanders who also criticised Brown.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25772147/ex-steelers-oc-bruce-arians-says-antonio-brown-same-player-pittsburgh-drafted

 

 

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42 minutes ago, ManningGM said:

His character WAS in question even before the hire. This is the same guy who burned down Denver's walls.

Again it was believed around the league he had grown up from that and it was no longer in question when the Colts hired him.

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23 minutes ago, a06cc said:

Besides the Facebook live incident. Brown isn’t a locker room problem. His issue was with management and Big Jen. I don’t disagree with him at all. He was thrown under the bus by his QB. The mistake wasn’t his fault. Now him being on this team is a different story. I’m all for whatever helps the team. I like building through the draft though. Cheaper and better overall. You get younger players to develop through your system. 

 

I'm sorry but this is 100% false.    The Facebook Live incident happened two years ago.    The Steelers aren't getting rid of a guy for some incident that's two years old.

 

They're getting rid of Brown for what he's become THIS YEAR.     Pittsburgh is one of THE MOST stable franchises in the NFL.    If they're publicly saying Brown is likely to be traded then he's been a huge problem child for them.     Huge.    The fact that specifics haven't come out is meaningless.  Pittsburgh actions are speaking louder than their words.    Bruce Arians is now calling him a Diva.   Former teammate Emanuel Sanders is calling Brown uo.    This is a mess of HIS making.    It might not be too late to save himself and stay with the franchise.   But he's not acting like a guy who wants to stay.    Brown is a HUGE locker room problem.

 

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47 minutes ago, ManningGM said:

His character WAS in question even before the hire. This is the same guy who burned down Denver's walls.

 

"Burned down Denver's Walls"......??      Hyperbole much?     

 

You do realize that the walls were so badly damaged that Denver was IN the Super Bowl in several years.    They WON a Super Bowl a few years after that.   The walls were hardly burned down.

 

There's a difference between being bad at his job -- which McDaniels. clearly was -- and showing bad character.     Would you like to post specifics that demonstrate bad character?    Otherwise.....

 

Josh McDaniels, for all his baggage,  is a terrific OC.   A terrific play caller.   His skills in this area can not be denied.   And, as you can see from the HC hirings the last few years,   smart offensive minds are in the highest demand.   McDaniels is one of them.    He may have screwed us,  but around the NFL,  someone is going to make him an HC someday.    Whether they will regret it, or have the last laugh is anyone's guess.....

 

Me?     I'm glad we have Frank Reich.

 

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1 hour ago, ManningGM said:

His character WAS in question even before the hire. This is the same guy who burned down Denver's walls.

 

This is one of the guys who burned down Cleveland’s walls. 

 

50e519c654b05adab22deef330533873.jpg

 

One bad stop in a coaches career does not tell his tale. 

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