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Foles or Wentz


Myles

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Who do you keep after this season.   They cannot keep both.   The Eagles are in the worst shape in the NFL as it pertains to the salary cap.  They can't afford to franchise tag Foles.  

Assume Foles get them to the NFC championship game this season.   After the Superbowl win and MVP last season and his pretty darn good play, do you let him go? 

Things to consider:

Foles is 30

Wentz is 26

Foles is a free agent, well he can opt out or stay for $20 million.   That's good money, but the Eagles cannot afford it.  

Wentz has a year left on his rookie deal

I assume you can get a decent haul if they were to trade Wentz.   Maybe a 1st and a 3rd.  I could be wrong. 

 

Is an injury prone Wentz worth more than Foles and an extra 1st and 3rd round pick?

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Wentz is the more talented player, although injuries have gotten the best of him lately. I still think you stick with Wentz and hope the injury bug stays away.

 

Foles is a good QB in that system. It will be interesting to see how he does outside of Philly.

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Foles is good when he is not "the guy", if he is coming in as an underdog with fewer expectations. Even now, he is playing with house money and the fact whether he can do it again (will lightning strike twice kind of thing)??? It is also the make up of the Eagles, I think, that helps them thrive as underdogs with their backs to the wall more than as the front runner. 

 

If Foles comes in as the alpha guy with higher expectations, we have seen that he has not done that great based on recent history. When he filled in as a back up for the KC Chiefs here in Indy when Alex Smith went out with a concussion, he lit us up but if he comes in game in and game out, his tendencies can be chalked out better and make him less effective, IMO.

 

The myth, the legend, Mr. Foles!!! :) 

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3 hours ago, CR91 said:

Wentz imo is a playmaker. Foles is just a system QB.

I always HATE this argument. Every QB is a system QB.. every last one!  

 

Wentz is injury prone but had a much much bigger upside than Foles

 

Foles is good under pressure but reminds me of Eli Manning.. in other words he is either good or very very bad.. (he stunk at the beginning of the year)

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They'll stick with Wentz, just because of the resources they put up to get him. It also wouldn't look as bad if they kept him and he doesn't develop/gets injured and/or Foles plays well in his next stop as it would if they traded him and Foles would play like, well Foles and Wentz became perennial MVP candidate,

 

It's fair question though, why Wentz hasn't clearly outperformed Foles. Not sure if they even make the playoffs if he doesn't get injured. He has bad habit of taking sacks and fumbling the ball.

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2 minutes ago, Finball said:

They'll stick with Wentz, just because of the resources they put up to get him. It also wouldn't look as bad if they kept him and he doesn't develop/gets injured and/or Foles plays well in his next stop as it would if they traded him and Foles would play like, well Foles and Wentz became perennial MVP candidate,

 

It's fair question though, why Wentz hasn't clearly outperformed Foles. Not sure if they even make the playoffs if he doesn't get injured. He has bad habit of taking sacks and fumbling the ball.

I feel the same.  

If not for the injury prone part, I'd go with Wentz.   But when I factor in that and the two 1 st round picks they could get, Foles sounds better.   Maybe it is more the system, but if Foles fits that system and you can get a couple 1st round picks as well, it makes it a tougher decision.  

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Wentz pros:

Currently a better QB than Foles

Higher ceiling for being abetter QB.

4 years younger than Foles

Wentz negs:

Injury prone

 

Foles pros:

Super bowl winner and MVP

Has played well in limited time

Would come with 2 extra 1st round draft picks

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Myles said:

Wentz pros:

Currently a better QB than Foles

Higher ceiling for being abetter QB.

4 years younger than Foles

Wentz negs:

Injury prone

 

Foles pros:

Super bowl winner and MVP

Has played well in limited time

Would come with 2 extra 1st round draft picks

 

 

 

There is also the cap savings. Wentz has one more year as a rookie and then the option year. After that he'll be really expensive but Foles would be expensive next year and Philly is really tight with the cap.

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4 hours ago, Finball said:

 

There is also the cap savings. Wentz has one more year as a rookie and then the option year. After that he'll be really expensive but Foles would be expensive next year and Philly is really tight with the cap.

That's true.  I left it off because long term, i think the contract for Wentz next year will be more than what they could sign Foles for this year.   Kind of a wash IMO.

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11 hours ago, Myles said:

Who do you keep after this season.   They cannot keep both.   The Eagles are in the worst shape in the NFL as it pertains to the salary cap.  They can't afford to franchise tag Foles.  

Assume Foles get them to the NFC championship game this season.   After the Superbowl win and MVP last season and his pretty darn good play, do you let him go? 

Things to consider:

Foles is 30

Wentz is 26

Foles is a free agent, well he can opt out or stay for $20 million.   That's good money, but the Eagles cannot afford it.  

Wentz has a year left on his rookie deal

I assume you can get a decent haul if they were to trade Wentz.   Maybe a 1st and a 3rd.  I could be wrong. 

 

Is an injury prone Wentz worth more than Foles and an extra 1st and 3rd round pick?

 

I think Wentz will bring more than a 1st and a 3rd.... I think atleast two 1st's plus. But I think Eagles will keep him anyway.

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8 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

I think Wentz will bring more than a 1st and a 3rd.... I think atleast two 1st's plus. But I think Eagles will keep him anyway.

 After some thought, I think you are correct.    I had switched to two 1st rounders a bit back.

 

I think Foles and two 1st round picks is better than Wentz for me.  Especially since they are in salary cap trouble.   A couple extra starters on rookie contracts would be nice. 

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19 hours ago, Myles said:

I feel the same.  

If not for the injury prone part, I'd go with Wentz.   But when I factor in that and the two 1 st round picks they could get, Foles sounds better.   Maybe it is more the system, but if Foles fits that system and you can get a couple 1st round picks as well, it makes it a tougher decision.  

Yes, I see @Finball's point too.  Philly has put a lot of resources into Wentz, however, trading him for 2 1sts can get those resources back.  

 

If Wentz goes upward somewhere else and Foles flops in Philly, that looks really bad; but if Foles does well elsewhere and Wentz comes back to earth in Philly, that's more easily defendable for Philly's management. 

 

I'd probably go with Foles because he is more of a sure thing for Philly, and I've always thought he has been underrated and over criticized since draft time, so I'm biased about him. 

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2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yes, I see @Finball's point too.  Philly has put a lot of resources into Wentz, however, trading him for 2 1sts can get those resources back.  

 

If Wentz goes upward somewhere else and Foles flops in Philly, that looks really bad; but if Foles does well elsewhere and Wentz comes back to earth in Philly, that's more easily defendable for Philly's management. 

 

I'd probably go with Foles because he is more of a sure thing for Philly, and I've always thought he has been underrated and over criticized since draft time, so I'm biased about him. 

The egg on the face of Philly if Wentz goes on to be an MVP QB somewhere else is the fear that may stop a trade from happening.   I think the two 1st round picks (probably a top 10 at least this year) could make up for it.   If 1 or both end up being pro bowl caliber and Foles plays above average, it is a deal worth making.    I think Foles will be cheaper too.

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3 minutes ago, Myles said:

The egg on the face of Philly if Wentz goes on to be an MVP QB somewhere else is the fear that may stop a trade from happening.   I think the two 1st round picks (probably a top 10 at least this year) could make up for it.   If 1 or both end up being pro bowl caliber and Foles plays above average, it is a deal worth making.    I think Foles will be cheaper too.

I think Foles' first time with Philly he had posted some gawdy stats like 27 TDs and 3 INTs before coming back to earth later in the year. That may have been with Chip Kelly.  Then he flops elsewhere but returns to Philly and does well.

 

Really, it doesn't matter if your QB is regarded as a system QB.  As long as he does well in your system, who cares if he would do well for 31 other teams?  Take the draft picks, save the money, and build a dominant defense and improve the oline.

 

The age difference might be a factor though.

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Foles has a player option, and can buy out his 2019 option for $2 million.  He's made more than that just in incentives this year.  Eagles only way to get something  for him is tag him.  That gives them room for 2 scenarios.  Trade him, or keep him on as Wentz health insurance. No thought to even trading Wentz.

 

And the Eagles can likely do this.  I've heard Bill Polian, Mark Dominik, Phil savage and other former NFL GM's say making cap room for situations like this is not all that difficult. The decision is to accept the $2 million opt out money and let him walk, or tag him.  What is more worthwhile to the Eagles?

 

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30 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

Foles has a player option, and can buy out his 2019 option for $2 million.  He's made more than that just in incentives this year.  Eagles only way to get something  for him is tag him.  That gives them room for 2 scenarios.  Trade him, or keep him on as Wentz health insurance. No thought to even trading Wentz.

 

And the Eagles can likely do this.  I've heard Bill Polian, Mark Dominik, Phil savage and other former NFL GM's say making cap room for situations like this is not all that difficult. The decision is to accept the $2 million opt out money and let him walk, or tag him.  What is more worthwhile to the Eagles?

 

I don't think the Eagles can pay their backup QB franchise tag money.   He'll pay the $2 million and get a starting job elsewhere.  

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2 minutes ago, Myles said:

I don't think the Eagles can pay their backup QB franchise tag money.   He'll pay the $2 million and get a starting job elsewhere.  

 

You can if your starter is making rookie contact salary...

 

Add Wentz and Foles cap value compared to those like Garoppolo and backup, Stafford and backup, Cousins and backup, Luck and Brissett...

 

Eagles backup (Foles) is a Super Bowl MVP and starter caliber QB, backing up a talented yet so far injury prone franchise QB.  Eagles fans might revolt if they let Foles walk for 2 million, especially if they beat the Saints.

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16 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

You can if your starter is making rookie contact salary...

 

Add Wentz and Foles cap value compared to those like Garoppolo and backup, Stafford and backup, Cousins and backup, Luck and Brissett...

 

Eagles backup (Foles) is a Super Bowl MVP and starter caliber QB, backing up a talented yet so far injury prone franchise QB.  Eagles fans might revolt if they let Foles walk for 2 million, especially if they beat the Saints.

They are already well over the cap.   I know there are ways to get around it, but the Eagles don't have the flexibility to do it at this time.   I do agree that it would be a good option for the Eagles.   Same reason I wouldn't trade Brissett.   The insurance is worth it.    I just have to think Foles will want a starting job after the season.  He's only 30 now.   Time to cash in. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Myles said:

They are already well over the cap.  

 

That is impossible.  The salary cap is a Hard_Cap.  All contracts have to go through the NFL league office.  Any contract that makes a team go over the cap will be voided. The NFL will not allow a team to go over the hard cap in season.  And the NFL already announced the cap will go up between 10 and 14 million dollars for 2019.

 

If a team somehow slips a contract by the league that makes them go over, the team (after it being caught in review) will lose draft picks and likely be fined as well.

 

2 hours ago, Myles said:

I know there are ways to get around it, but the Eagles don't have the flexibility to do it at this time.  

 

Former GM's say otherwise... there are always methods to clear cap space... especially when start level/franchise QB's are concerned.

 

2 hours ago, Myles said:

I do agree that it would be a good option for the Eagles.   Same reason I wouldn't trade Brissett.   The insurance is worth it.    I just have to think Foles will want a starting job after the season.  He's only 30 now.   Time to cash in.

 

If Nick tries to buy out his option, I expect the Eagles to Franchise tag him, that's especially if they don't feel Wentz may be ready. Otherwise, I think he goes on the trading block ASAP; with the tag as their backup plan if teams won't bargain hoping Foles buys out his option and walks.

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3 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

That is impossible.  The salary cap is a Hard_Cap.  All contracts have to go through the NFL league office.  Any contract that makes a team go over the cap will be voided. The NFL will not allow a team to go over the hard cap in season.  And the NFL already announced the cap will go up between 10 and 14 million dollars for 2019.

 

If a team somehow slips a contract by the league that makes them go over, the team (after it being caught in review) will lose draft picks and likely be fined as well.

 

 

Former GM's say otherwise... there are always methods to clear cap space... especially when start level/franchise QB's are concerned.

 

 

If Nick tries to buy out his option, I expect the Eagles to Franchise tag him, that's especially if they don't feel Wentz may be ready. Otherwise, I think he goes on the trading block ASAP; with the tag as their backup plan if teams won't bargain hoping Foles buys out his option and walks.

I meant to say already over in the 2019 cap.   I don't know what they have due for 2019, but they are not sitting pretty with an extra $25 million to give to a back up player.  

I think Foles will want to leave and cash in as a starter.

 

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2019/

image.png.1452c11a72241ff6d383b8fb6dadf421.png

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2 hours ago, Myles said:

I meant to say already over in the 2019 cap.   I don't know what they have due for 2019, but they are not sitting pretty with an extra $25 million to give to a back up player.  

I think Foles will want to leave and cash in as a starter.

 

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2019/

image.png.1452c11a72241ff6d383b8fb6dadf421.png

 

20 million was already figured in there for Foles 2019 option.  Here's where they clear a lot more quickly:

 

LT Jason Peters

2019 cap hit: $10.66 million (team option)
Savings: If the Eagles decline the option, it'll probably clear the cap hit.
Peters is 36 and mmight retire anyway. Even if he doesn't, it's more likely his option is declined and the Eagles only bring him back on a cheaper, one-year deal.

 

DT Timmy Jernigan
2019 cap hit: $11 million (team option)
Savings: If the Eagles decline his option, they'll rid themselves of the remaining three years on his deal without any dead cap hit.


S Rodney McLeod
2019 cap hit: $9.9 million
Savings: If he's cut pre-June 1, the Eagles would save $5 million with a $4.8 million dead cap hit. If it's post-June 1, they'd save $7.5 million with $2.4 million dead cap hits in 2019 and 2020.
 

There's plenty of space generated right there.  I'm sure they have other options too. They can make room to tag Foles... if they want. Then, trade or keep him as insurance one more time.

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12 minutes ago, Myles said:

If I was betting my money, I don't think Coles and Wentz will both be Eagles.  

Has a team ever tagged a backup QB?

 

If Coles pays his $2 million to opt out, can the Eagles still tag him?

 

I think the team has to exercise the option within a week after the Super bowl. Then Foles has 5 days to accept or reject.  If he opts out, he has to repay 2 million.  I don't see the Eagles doing this.  I think they let him hit FA, and Franchise tag him, for a trade (Jacksonville?) to another team.  If the medical reports on Wentz aren't going as hoped, maybe they retain him.  Just letting him out the door probably won't happen.  Just like Steelers likely won't let Bell out the door without trying to get compensated. (transition tag).

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18 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

You can if your starter is making rookie contact salary...

 

But Wentz only has one year left, then he'll be making franchise QB money.  The main point to keeping Wentz over Foles is the longer term stability at the position.  If we're looking down the road just one a two years, then trading Wentz to get more draft picks as Foles approaches his mid 30s makes some sense.

 

Philly will probably settle on keeping Wentz as long as they don't think his durability issues will compromise his long term performance.

 

The issue with trading either QB (assuming they would after a franchse tag on Foles), is that the acquiring team will have to give up BOTH high draft picks AND salary cap.  Normally teams find a franchise QB through the draft and only pay them rookie money for 5 years.  Philly might have to accept the QB other teams are not willing to pay twice for. 

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8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

But Wentz only has one year left, then he'll be making franchise QB money.  The main point to keeping Wentz over Foles is the longer term stability at the position.  If we're looking down the road just one a two years, then I'd franchise Foles and get draft picks to add good players to the roster as Foles approaches his mid 30s.

 

Philly will probably settle on keeping Wentz as long as they don't think his durability issues will compromise his long term performance.

 

The issue with trading either QB (assuming they would after a franchse tag), is that the aquiring team will have to give up BOTH high draft picks AND salary cap.  Normally teams find a franchise QB through the draft and only pay them rookie money for 5 years.  Philly might have to accept the QB other teams are not willing to pay twice for.

 

Foles is a tag and trade (if Wentz becomes healthy), or a 1 year insurance plan.  Foles only becomes long term consideration if Wentz' back doesn't respond well.

 

Will Tom Coughlin take time to develop a newly drafted QB?  There will be someone that will pay for Foles.

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1 hour ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Foles is a tag and trade (if Wentz becomes healthy), or a 1 year insurance plan.  Foles only becomes long term consideration if Wentz' back doesn't respond well.

 

Will Tom Coughlin take time to develop a newly drafted QB?  There will be someone that will pay for Foles.

Its an interesting situation for sure.  Would the Jags offensive system and maybe their personnel have to drastically change for Foles to succeed there?  They already have cap problems as it is too.  There has to be a team that's more plug n play ready for Foles.

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The age difference is the deciding factor for the Eagles, no matter how you spin it. Even if Foles wins another SB with them, or even just beats the Saints this week, they still won't keep him even though I think they should. You cannot trust Wentz to stay healthy, but he has the longer career ahead of him (barring injuries of course). Foles has performed better imo than Wentz and he should be the one to stay and then trade Wentz for picks and such. But they just cannot do that.

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2 hours ago, Narcosys said:

The age difference is the deciding factor for the Eagles, no matter how you spin it. Even if Foles wins another SB with them, or even just beats the Saints this week, they still won't keep him even though I think they should. You cannot trust Wentz to stay healthy, but he has the longer career ahead of him (barring injuries of course). Foles has performed better imo than Wentz and he should be the one to stay and then trade Wentz for picks and such. But they just cannot do that.

 

Wentz is where the wagon is hooked. Rightfully sop. Too bad it ends up broken on the side of the road before reaching the destination and Foles has had to give them a tow a couple times already.  I'll be somewhat surprised if Steelers let Bell go without trying anything for compensation, same with Eagles and Foles. But they might. It will be interesting to watch this off season.

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