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Scott Pennock

Deon Cain

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2 hours ago, compuls1v3 said:

For all intents and purposes, Cain was picked in the 6th round, right?  That was probably for a reason...

Wasn't  because  of talent. Off field stuff

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1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Wasn't  because  of talent. Off field stuff

Well I can't judge him because he hasn't played a snap in a regular season game.  Hopefully he turns out to be another gem!

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On 12/26/2018 at 9:48 PM, John Waylon said:

Maybe. 

 

I remember when Duron Carter was the camp darling and people thought he might be the big answer for the offense. 

Duron Carter was a cfl player with a last name...

 

Nfl.com had Cain graded as the 4th best receiver in the draft. Some 20 or so receivers were picked before we snagged him. There was a reason people were excited about Cain. He has a ton of potential. Carter had zero. 

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1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

Duron Carter was a cfl player with a last name...

 

Nfl.com had Cain graded as the 4th best receiver in the draft. Some 20 or so receivers were picked before we snagged him. There was a reason people were excited about Cain. He has a ton of potential. Carter had zero. 

 

Back into the twilight zone we go. 

 

Maybe you missed the discrepancy between Carter’s CFL numbers and Cain’s college numbers. Go find that post. 

 

Its funny you mention zero potential. 

 

You know, funny because Cain has shown zero potential in a game to this point. 

 

Covet him all you want. The faith shown in him is nothing more than 100% optimism. Maybe he goes on to be a better player than Jerry Rice ever was. Maybe he goes on to be the next Duron Carter. 

 

It’s all yet to be determined. 

 

You can bet Ballard and Reich aren’t looking at 2019 and hoping for anything more than Cain to maybe be our #3. 

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ACL injury to a speedster WR before he's even played a game... I hope he gets back healthy for next season, but WR's with ACL problems so early on in their career... It's not the best cocktail :(

 

But we have to wait and see how he's doing when healthy in camp next season.

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3 hours ago, ThorstenDenmark said:

ACL injury to a speedster WR before he's even played a game... I hope he gets back healthy for next season, but WR's with ACL problems so early on in their career... It's not the best cocktail :(

 

But we have to wait and see how he's doing when healthy in camp next season.

People have come back even faster after an ACL recovery. Hold out hope.

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9 hours ago, John Waylon said:

 

Back into the twilight zone we go. 

 

Maybe you missed the discrepancy between Carter’s CFL numbers and Cain’s college numbers. Go find that post. 

 

Its funny you mention zero potential. 

 

You know, funny because Cain has shown zero potential in a game to this point. 

 

Covet him all you want. The faith shown in him is nothing more than 100% optimism. Maybe he goes on to be a better player than Jerry Rice ever was. Maybe he goes on to be the next Duron Carter. 

 

It’s all yet to be determined. 

 

You can bet Ballard and Reich aren’t looking at 2019 and hoping for anything more than Cain to maybe be our #3. 

 

I guess I didn't realize we like to look at CFL stats over power conference division 1 stats now... When I look at stats I look at quality of opponents, maybe you don't. I watched Deon Cain put up just shy of 100 yards in the national championship win against a stacked Bama defense. I remember them highlighting him a great deal in that game. I can't remember for the life of me Duron Carter in a big game...

 

It's funny this is even a conversation. I never said he'd be our #2 or even 3, but I would put serious money he's on the field next season, something Carter never realized... 

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4 minutes ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

I guess I didn't realize we like to look at CFL stats over power conference division 1 stats now... When I look at stats I look at quality of opponents, maybe you don't. I watched Deon Cain put up just shy of 100 yards in the national championship win against a stacked Bama defense. I remember them highlighting him a great deal in that game. I can't remember for the life of me Duron Carter in a big game...

 

It's funny this is even a conversation. I never said he'd be our #2 or even 3, but I would put serious money he's on the field next season, something Carter never realized... 

 

For the love of god. 

 

Stick with me here. Please.  

 

The stats are were simply to show that Carter wasn’t just some warm camp body that was here for no reason. They believed he could contribute. 

 

Just like they feel about Cain. 

 

The overall point still remains the exact same: (This is the important part. Buckle up and hang on.) 

 

Placing any kind of faith in Cain is a blind gamble. He’s shown nothing in a game setting. Just like Carter. They both got all kinds of hype and rave reviews in workouts and camps. None of that ever translated into any kind of meaningful production in a game setting. (And before you say it, YES. Cain has been injured. Which means... he still hasn’t shown anything in a game setting.)

 

You love Cain. 

 

Super. Stellar. Absolutely magically wonderful. 

 

He still hasnt actually proven he can be relied on to contribute. Why is this so hard to understand?

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No matter how optimistic you feel about Cain...does anyone think that a receiver shouldn't be taken with one of our top 4 picks for 2019? Because I certainly do, and I would still feel that way if Cain came in and had 80 catches next year. 

 

"Like" for yes to drafting a receiver, "sad" for no, not one in our top 4 picks.

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1 hour ago, John Waylon said:

He still hasnt actually proven he can be relied on to contribute. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

Because you're being argumentative about this for no reason whatsoever. Why shouldn't we be optimistic about a WR that Ballard drafted & Reich clearly likes in this scheme? Are you saying we should assume every player is bad until they prove us wrong?

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1 hour ago, John Waylon said:

 

For the love of god. 

 

Stick with me here. Please.  

 

The stats are were simply to show that Carter wasn’t just some warm camp body that was here for no reason. They believed he could contribute. 

 

Just like they feel about Cain. 

 

The overall point still remains the exact same: (This is the important part. Buckle up and hang on.) 

 

Placing any kind of faith in Cain is a blind gamble. He’s shown nothing in a game setting. Just like Carter. They both got all kinds of hype and rave reviews in workouts and camps. None of that ever translated into any kind of meaningful production in a game setting. (And before you say it, YES. Cain has been injured. Which means... he still hasn’t shown anything in a game setting.)

 

You love Cain. 

 

Super. Stellar. Absolutely magically wonderful. 

 

He still hasnt actually proven he can be relied on to contribute. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

I not once said I loved Cain, did I? You are putting words into my mouth now. All I said was that it was laughable to say he is similar to Duron Carter. Period.

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15 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Because you're being argumentative about this for no reason whatsoever. Why shouldn't we be optimistic about a WR that Ballard drafted & Reich clearly likes in this scheme? Are you saying we should assume every player is bad until they prove us wrong?

 

I'll take Ballard's eye and opinion on talent in the draft over Grigson's unorthodox method of searching the streets and CFL for players he thinks he could make work because he couldn't draft for a damn. 

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17 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Because you're being argumentative about this for no reason whatsoever. Why shouldn't we be optimistic about a WR that Ballard drafted & Reich clearly likes in this scheme? Are you saying we should assume every player is bad until they prove us wrong?

 

Yes. Exactly. That’s actually how this works. Players who prove that they are good and productive are.... good and productive. Players who do not.... are not. Glad to see the connection, no matter how fuzzy it may be, is taking hold. 

 

Cain has had nothing more than a good camp at this point in his career. There are thousands of players who have had good camps and never made a bit of diffence in games. 

 

People sitting around and proclaiming him the future #2 and a reason we shouldn’t look to improve our WR corps next season is a massive stretch. 

 

No one knows what he can bring to the table. 

 

No matter how good his camp was. 

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2 minutes ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

I'll take Ballard's eye and opinion on talent in the draft over Grigson's unorthodox method of searching the streets and CFL for players he thinks he could make work because he couldn't draft for a damn. 

 

And what when Ballard drafts a WR in the 2nd or 3rd round this spring? What when he signs a good FA WR to be the #2? What will that say about how the coaching staff and Ballard feel about him? 

 

That he’s an unproven commodity and they are not willing to put any kind of reliance on him until he shows he can play and produce in games.  

 

Which is exactly the point I’ve made from the very start. 

 

Love Cain all you want. He’s unproven. This is a fact. 

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9 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

 

And what when Ballard drafts a WR in the 2nd or 3rd round this spring? What when he signs a good FA WR to be the #2? What will that say about how the coaching staff and Ballard feel about him? 

 

That he’s an unproven commodity and they are not willing to put any kind of reliance on him until he shows he can play and produce in games.  

 

Which is exactly the point I’ve made from the very start. 

 

Love Cain all you want. He’s unproven. This is a fact. 

 

That Ballard and company will continue practicing what they preach which is competition. Just because they bring a few pieces in doesn't mean Cain doesn't blow everyone away come training camp and he is playing come September. I am willing to bet that if we release him, someone gives him the opportunity... unlike Duron Carter.

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2 minutes ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

That Ballard and company will continue practicing what they preach which is competition. Just because they bring a few pieces in doesn't mean Cain doesn't blow everyone away come training camp and he is playing come September. I am willing to bet that if we release him, someone gives him the opportunity... unlike Duron Carter.

 

Carter is still playing in the CFL. He got another chance. 

 

You just don’t get it. Carter is not the subject here. I’ll change it up and make it easier for you to understand. 

 

Roy Hall used to have impressive training camps. People would clamor for him to get more opportunities in the offense. And when he did.... nothing. 

 

Players look good in camp all the time. 

 

Which means nothing where real games are concerned. Go replace Carter’s name with an endless list of players who have good camps and then turn into just another face in the crowd when the real games start. It happens more often than not. 

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4 hours ago, John Waylon said:

Glad to see the connection, no matter how fuzzy it may be, is taking hold.

 

You're comin off a little like DougDew on this one.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but just some food for thought.

 

Keep it up and you might end up with a mob of optimistic Colts fans swooping in with emotional dive bombs.  haha

 

FWIW, Deon Cain did look better in college than either Duron Carter or Roy Hall, so the optimism isn't completely unwarranted.  :2c:

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Carter? No, no, no guys...

 

Da'Rick Rogers was the real deal! He was so fast and good that he could throw the ball himself and still catch it for a TD! Never seen anything like it! :goodluck:

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45 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

You're comin off a little like DougDew on this one.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but just some food for thought.

 

Keep it up and you might end up with a mob of optimistic Colts fans swooping in with emotional dive bombs.  haha

 

FWIW, Deon Cain did look better in college than either Duron Carter or Roy Hall, so the optimism isn't completely unwarranted.  :2c:

 

I disagree ... IMO many are being far too "optimistic" and missing the point.

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The Colts need to invest a high pick for a WR.   No way Ballard is going to not put big time weapons around Luck now.     And for that matter they need to invest in a big time running back.  Marlon Mack is not the answer. He is a good change of pace back but not consistent enough to be an every down back. I am not in the camp that wants Bell, but if it means we dont have to rely on Mack. I am in

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8 minutes ago, esmort said:

I disagree ... IMO many are being far too "optimistic" and missing the point.

 

I'm not saying he's wrong, but people are allowed to ignore facts and have their opinions, no matter how ridiculously optimistic.

 

I'm talking about the condescending tone of many of his posts in this thread: Twilight zone, "let me make it easy for you to understand", "you just don't get it", basically calling people stupid for not sharing his opinion.

 

That's very DougDewish, and it's going to make people dig their heels in even more, which will lead to 7-8 pages of back-and-forth.

 

giphy.gif

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5 hours ago, John Waylon said:

 

Carter is still playing in the CFL. He got another chance. 

 

You just don’t get it. Carter is not the subject here. I’ll change it up and make it easier for you to understand. 

 

Roy Hall used to have impressive training camps. People would clamor for him to get more opportunities in the offense. And when he did.... nothing. 

 

Players look good in camp all the time. 

 

Which means nothing where real games are concerned. Go replace Carter’s name with an endless list of players who have good camps and then turn into just another face in the crowd when the real games start. It happens more often than not. 

 

Not a great comp...but not terrible either. Hall was all potential...while Cain had some college success. But I agree with what you are saying.

 

Cain, for whaterver reason, was a late round draft pick. But it's not like he has an elite skill...like Tyreek Hill. The success rate of WRs drafted late is pretty low...and not something you gamble on. It's one thing to do so in a rebuilding year...but not when you are ready to compete.   

 

I think whatever the Colts get out of Cain next season should be considered gravy. I just don't see any way they enter TC without 3-4 legit options at WR for Cain to compete with. 

 

And this upcoming draft is fairly deep at WR as well. With so many teams likely targeting defense early, the Colts will could have their pick in the 2nd round.

 

I hope the depth chart starts to look like this next May:

 

Hilton

FA/trade

Day Two Pick

Inman

Cain

Rogers

Pascal

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

I'm not saying he's wrong, but people are allowed to ignore facts and have their opinions, no matter how ridiculously optimistic.

 

I'm talking about the condescending tone of many of his posts in this thread: Twilight zone, "let me make it easy for you to understand", "you just don't get it", basically calling people stupid for not sharing his opinion.

 

That's very DougDewish, and it's going to make people dig their heels in even more, which will lead to 7-8 pages of back-and-forth.

 

giphy.gif

 

Except that he started out very diplomatic and factual. The "optimistic" mob who get enamored to a new "camp darling" every couple years are the ones that couldn't just live with the "maybe/hopefully he will be good, but let's not pencil him is as #2 just yet" are just as guilty.

 

The big difference is DD picks ridiculous stances on things that is almost mind boggling and almost just seem to be for the sake of pot stirring.  JW has a legitimate point on a topic and the fact many posters agree with him clearly differentiates it from 99% of DD arguments. 

 

I get his frustration ... it's baffling to me that people can't see that Cain is a 6th rnd, IRd., never played a regular season game "giant question mark" ... maybe(hopefully) he will be great (and maybe not) ... but let's not anoint him the #2 WR and heir apparent to TY just yet .. people are free to have that opinion, but saying "they just don't get it" is accurate.

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40 minutes ago, esmort said:

but saying "they just don't get it" is accurate.

 

No it's not.

 

If someone wants to say that they believe Deon Cain is the 2nd most talented WR on the Colts and should be the #2 behind TY next year, they're not wrong.

 

If NFL "experts" want to say that they believe Ryan Kelly is the best center in the league when he only plays half the time, they're not wrong.

 

Maybe you don't "get" how opinions work...  <-- (and that's the kind of condescending comment I was talking about that John is guilty of, how does it feel to be on the receiving end?  You see my point?  Are you now more inclined to agree with me or contribute to a few more pages of back-and-forth because I've rubbed you the wrong way?)  :thinking:

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I think it's important to have a big and fast receiver opposite TY.  

  

TY is going to do his thing, but he needs help on the other side sometimes.  

  

I would be perfectly happy with a first round WR.

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1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

I'm not saying he's wrong, but people are allowed to ignore facts and have their opinions, no matter how ridiculously optimistic.

 

I'm talking about the condescending tone of many of his posts in this thread: Twilight zone, "let me make it easy for you to understand", "you just don't get it", basically calling people stupid for not sharing his opinion.

 

That's very DougDewish, and it's going to make people dig their heels in even more, which will lead to 7-8 pages of back-and-forth.

 

giphy.gif

 

Theres a difference between optimism and sensationalism. The hype around Cain from most of these hypers is the latter. I am optimistic about Cain. Maybe he’s the next Jerry Rice. Maybe he’s the next Juston Blackmon. 

 

Theres no was of knowing yet. Moving forward pegging him as anything is folly. 

 

I used rhe Carter reference because it was relevant. It’s recent, and the parallels are there. 

 

Then people started thinking I was comparing them in terms of talent. Which was not at all the point. 

 

But since they wanted to play that game I obliged with the stats references. Which is worth bearing. Carter proved in the CFL that he could produce. He produced well there before coming here. Just like Cain. 

 

And though I continued to maintain that point people still missed it like a Shaq free throw. 

 

The DD comparison is a little bit of a stretch. He would argue something wild like Cain is a robot incapable of wrong or something utterly ridiculous of the sort. 

 

At least I’m bringing stats and references to make valid points. 

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20 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

 

Theres a difference between optimism and sensationalism. The hype around Cain from most of these hypers is the latter. I am optimistic about Cain. Maybe he’s the next Jerry Rice. Maybe he’s the next Juston Blackmon. 

 

Theres no was of knowing yet. Moving forward pegging him as anything is folly. 

 

I used rhe Carter reference because it was relevant. It’s recent, and the parallels are there. 

 

Then people started thinking I was comparing them in terms of talent. Which was not at all the point. 

 

But since they wanted to play that game I obliged with the stats references. Which is worth bearing. Carter proved in the CFL that he could produce. He produced well there before coming here. Just like Cain. 

 

And though I continued to maintain that point people still missed it like a Shaq free throw. 

 

The DD comparison is a little bit of a stretch. He would argue something wild like Cain is a robot incapable of wrong or something utterly ridiculous of the sort. 

 

At least I’m bringing stats and references to make valid points. 

 

I'm also optimistic about Cain, and I also agree that he's a big question mark at the moment.

 

Sorry about the DD comparison, but your "Maybe" comment really felt like one of his, then there were multiple condescending posts that followed.

 

We're all on the same team, and I reject any DD vibes going into the biggest game of the year!  :rock:

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20 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

I'm also optimistic about Cain, and I also agree that he's a big question mark at the moment.

 

Sorry about the DD comparison, but your "Maybe" comment really felt like one of his, then there were multiple condescending posts that followed.

 

We're all on the same team, and I reject any DD vibes going into the biggest game of the year!  :rock:

 

All good. I didn’t take it personal!

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10 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

No it's not.

 

If someone wants to say that they believe Deon Cain is the 2nd most talented WR on the Colts and should be the #2 behind TY next year, they're not wrong.

 

If NFL "experts" want to say that they believe Ryan Kelly is the best center in the league when he only plays half the time, they're not wrong.

 

Maybe you don't "get" how opinions work...  <-- (and that's the kind of condescending comment I was talking about that John is guilty of, how does it feel to be on the receiving end?  You see my point?  Are you now more inclined to agree with me or contribute to a few more pages of back-and-forth because I've rubbed you the wrong way?:thinking:

 

How does it feel - Indifference ... Do I see the point you are trying to make - Yes (but you missed)... More inclined to agree with you - No, but partially because I don't know whether you are wanting me to agree about something related to Cain or on "your opinion on opinions". :scratch:

 

I do "get" how opinions work, but not every opinion is created equal; and no I am not going spend multiple pages arguing semantics and the difference between a well-founded opinion based on facts vs. ill-founded opinion based on emotion/hope/gut etc... I suspect (or at least hope) you know this already, but for some reason are determined to play mediator.

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Who is the Clemson WR Coach...…. Or Dabo and company are very very good at analyzing WR talent …..one or the other...…(maybe both ) !

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7 minutes ago, HOF19 said:

Who is the Clemson WR Coach...…. Or Dabo and company are very very good at analyzing WR talent …..one or the other...…(maybe both ) !

 

Too bad Ross is only a freshman.  Wouldn’t matter, he won’t be available at the 32nd pick anyway.

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I would be disappointed if we went WR with our first or second pick. An elite quarterback can succeed with average receivers. Defense, defense, defense in my humble opinion. 

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I don't usually follow the draft and training camp news. Usually to much of a crap shoot and just not my thing. That's why I rely on people who do to give the details haha. What makes this guy so exciting? He was drafted in the 6th round right? And didnt really play preseason, because he got hurt, right? I'd love to hear where the hype is coming from. (Would like a genuine answer I am not trying to argue that he is not worth the hype at all).

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Just now, DrLuck said:

I don't usually follow the draft and training camp news. Usually to much of a crap shoot and just not my thing. That's why I rely on people who do to give the details haha. What makes this guy so exciting? He was drafted in the 6th round right? And didnt really play preseason, because he got hurt, right? I'd love to hear where the hype is coming from. (Would like a genuine answer I am not trying to argue that he is not worth the hype at all).

he was thought to be a second or third round talent, that dropped due to failed drug tests and possibly some other issues that fans are not aware of

 

 

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On 12/28/2018 at 9:48 AM, ColtV said:

No matter how optimistic you feel about Cain...does anyone think that a receiver shouldn't be taken with one of our top 4 picks for 2019? Because I certainly do, and I would still feel that way if Cain came in and had 80 catches next year. 

 

"Like" for yes to drafting a receiver, "sad" for no, not one in our top 4 picks.

I think it's funny that people who don't want to expect much from Cain are also the ones saying draft a WR.  Would not all the negatives (except coming off an injury) that apply to Cain also apply to a draft pick?

 

I do remember last year when fans were convinced that Colts needed to draft 2 or 3 CBs because the Colts did not sign their best cornerback (Melvin) and the CBs left on the team Desir, Moore and Hairston would not make the 53 man roster of any other NFL team and Q. Wilson was a bust.

 

Based on the information available to us fans, I would draft a WR with one of the Colts 1st three picks.  But I will not be disappointed if CB and team have a different idea.

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8 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I think it's funny that people who don't want to expect much from Cain are also the ones saying draft a WR.  Would not all the negatives (except coming off an injury) that apply to Cain also apply to a draft pick?

 

I do remember last year when fans were convinced that Colts needed to draft 2 or 3 CBs because the Colts did not sign their best cornerback (Melvin) and the CBs left on the team Desir, Moore and Hairston would not make the 53 man roster of any other NFL team and Q. Wilson was a bust.

 

Based on the information available to us fans, I would draft a WR with one of the Colts 1st three picks.  But I will not be disappointed if CB and team have a different idea.

Ya 100%. Fans can be totally wrong but sometimes, and I truly believe this, an objectively dumb, bad decision actually ends up working out. Is this a situation where we give credit? Or do we start doubting the judgement even though things worked out? Maybe the hypothetical GM had more information than us, or maybe he got lucky. Goes back to my reasoning for not following the draft as closely as others. It is such a crap shoot lol. I mean I had people whose knowledge I respect and know  that they follow the draft extremely closely, not be a fan of this draft initially. This includes personal relationships and media pundits who's job it is to analyze these things. Most didn't particularly like our draft, and it turned out great. I dunno, moral of the story is I am glad I'm not the one responsible for making these choices holy cow.

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21 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

he was thought to be a second or third round talent, that dropped due to failed drug tests and possibly some other issues that fans are not aware of

 

 

Was he tearing it up in training camp or anything? Or is this pretty much it? Thanks btw.

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1 hour ago, DrColtsFan said:

I would be disappointed if we went WR with our first or second pick. An elite quarterback can succeed with average receivers. Defense, defense, defense in my humble opinion. 

IMO I think average receivers have more dropped balls than above average or elite receivers. 

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