Luck and manning.

[Trace Pyott]

I was bored and looking up lucks stats this year and decided to see how manning did on his 6th year and I couldn’t believe what I saw. Now let me first say that I think manning is the greatest ever and yes I know I’m biased but omg luck is absolutely having a monster season and I don’t think many people are realizing it and that’s why I wanted to put it next to Manning’s stats. During Manning’s 6th year in 2003 he had 29 td and 10 Int. I didn’t count last year as lucks 6th year because he didn’t play.  Right now basically half way through the season luck has 26td and 9 int!!!!!!  Guys this was supposed to be lucks season to knock the rust off and he’s putting up numbers that maybe a handful of qb have done this early in the season ever!  If the season ended now he would have had what would usually be considered a stellar season.   I don’t want to start a manning or luck debate on who is better and all that,  I just wanted to give luck credit and to show how much of a tear he has been on this season with a new coach and not so reliable receivers.   I am so glad he’s back and better than ever. We are so lucky to have luck back and leading our team in the future, one that looks super bright.  

[Superman]

The league was very different in 2003. Manning won his first MVP that year (co-MVP with McNair). This year, there's like 15 QBs on pace for more than 30 TD passes. 

 

Luck is having a really good year, though. And he and the staff have basically said he's working his way into shape as the year goes on, so yeah, he can probably still play better.

[Chrisaaron1023]

I agree @Superman I'm not even that old.. but back then 300 yards and 3 TD's was exceptional.. now it's the standard norm lol

 

So it's not surprising seeing these passing records fall. Especially when guys want to play till 50 now. Jerry Rice.. they are coming for your records too. All the RB's are safe! No way in the world someone is rushing for 28 Td's in a single season.

[18to87]

What Manning and co did in 2004 (with help from the rule change due to the cheating Pats DB's in the playoffs) opened the can of worms that is now the NFL. It is a copycat league. I would even say that Drew Brees eventually holding all of the passing records is thanks to Manning paving the way. If Luck and Reich stay together then 40 TD's per season should be his minimum. 

[Smonroe]

I think that Manning was more gifted cerebrally, formation wise.  He was the best at picking apart defenses and putting the offense into the best possible position.   

 

Luck is more physically gifted, and very bright.  A better passer, imho.  And a very bright guy, football wise.  Just not as good as PM, but no one was.   

 

Yes, we are very blessed to have them both.  

[ThorstenDenmark]

You can't compare Manning and Lucks stats, as it's a very different league now.

 

Mannings stats were crazy back then, today, it's the norm for putting up stats like that.

And in the years to come, we will see QB´s shatter the records of the NFL.

 

Passing yards in a season, TD´s thrown in a season and such records, will be smashed, due to the rule changes. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Luck or Mahomes take down the record for most passing TD´s this season, as they both have a decent chance. 

 

I bet both of them at least throw 45 TD´s this season.

But within two or three years, Mannings record will be shattered, and thats primarily due to the rule changes.

 

These comparisons, is like comparing the GOAT - Michael Jordan with LeBron James in Basketball. Jordan played in an era where you could hit each other, and hit each other hard.

Today, if you hit one another, the player you hit, will almost take off and land in the stands, and thats only when you touch him like you would touch a puppy.

 

In Mannings prime, you could take down the  QB´s hard and level them hard.

Today, its 15 yards penalty if you touch his helmet or look at him the wrong way.

 

So comparisons is a waste of time IMO

  

[Moosejawcolt]

Manning GOAT of all time in the regular season.  If I was starting a franchise that was a total dumpster fire, I would take Manning. That being said, he is not the GOAT when u factor in his play off performances. 

[jvan1973]

48 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Manning GOAT of all time in the regular season.  If I was starting a franchise that was a total dumpster fire, I would take Manning. That being said, he is not the GOAT when u factor in his play off performances. 

4 Superbowls. 4 different head coaches 

[Moosejawcolt]

I see that stat that and that  is why  I would probably start a franchise with him....Elway or Marino.  I think those 3 could b successful as they are not as dependant on coaching as other great qbs.  Honestly, I think the GOAT debate is rather foolish.  I think u can have say 10 great qbs and leave it  at that.  To much to take into account when crowning a qb the greatest of all time. U can make an argument for and against every qb in the top 10.  It's like who is the best qb today?.  I don't know and I don't care as long as I have a good one.

[IinD]

Manning I think is the smartest QB ever in terms of what he's seeing and what his plan(s) of attack are.

 

Definitely a different league once again. The last change I can recently remember was right after the New England mugging days.

 

Every week there's a new record set.

[BOTT]

3 hours ago, Smonroe said:

I think that Manning was more gifted cerebrally, formation wise.  He was the best at picking apart defenses and putting the offense into the best possible position.   

 

Luck is more physically gifted, and very bright.  A better passer, imho.  And a very bright guy, football wise.  Just not as good as PM, but no one was.   

 

Yes, we are very blessed to have them both.  

If Manning was forced to play for a buffoon for several yrs to start his career I doubt we would have been talking about how cerebral manning was.

[horseshoecrabs]

Luck has more similarities to Peyton than you might expect. Though they are different the one intangible that they have is to elevate the talent they have around them. The great QB's like Brady (I want to choke at saying this,) Drew,  ectee..  Make players at their position better they probably deserve.

[horseshoecrabs]

5 minutes ago, BOTT said:

If Manning was forced to play for a buffoon for several yrs to start his career I doubt we would have been talking about how cerebral manning was.

I agree with Bott.  Manning is a special player in the fact that he was a consummate student of the game and his thirst for always learning,  never satisfied with the statis quo, Is what you want as a team leader.

[jvan1973]

11 minutes ago, BOTT said:

If Manning was forced to play for a buffoon for several yrs to start his career I doubt we would have been talking about how cerebral manning was.

I'm guessing that's why mora was fired and Tom Moore was retained.   Polian knew

[Moosejawcolt]

29 minutes ago, BOTT said:

If Manning was forced to play for a buffoon for several yrs to start his career I doubt we would have been talking about how cerebral manning was.

One could argue that no other  high pick qb coming out of college had more to deal with and still excelled.  Talking bout Luck.

[Trace Pyott]

Wasn’t the main rule change that changed the nfl to what it is today the no contact with recievers after 5 yards?  When exactly was that implemented?   I know it was after we were mugged in NE. Looking at Manning’s stats most years after thAt he threw for around 30 to 39 td.  I think luck can easily throw that much this year with less talent around him. Like I said I’m not saying he’s manning, no one will be. He’s a once in a generation player for a franchise up there with the Jordan’s, Ruth’s, Gretzky’s etc. I just wanted to put in perspective the year that luck is having this year because I for one didn’t realize he was killing it as much as he was. 

[Trueman]

Talent wise , I think Luck is actually more talented than Peyton. The kid can do everything. 

But yeah, comparing modern NFL passing stats to the past eras is pointless. Bortles tossed 35 TD's one year , for christ's sake.

[18to87]

5 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Manning GOAT of all time in the regular season.  If I was starting a franchise that was a total dumpster fire, I would take Manning. That being said, he is not the GOAT when u factor in his play off performances. 

3-1 vs Brady in the AFCCG.

[Moosejawcolt]

31 minutes ago, 18to87 said:

3-1 vs Brady in the AFCCG.

No u r wrong.  That would b the Colts 3 to 1 Pats with Peyton Manning as the Colts qb and Glen as their LT and....so on and so on.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Peyton is in the handful of any 10 QB's of all-time like Brady, Montana, Unitas, Elway, Marino, Favre, etc.. Having said that, Luck is more talented than Peyton IMO. Peyton was just off the charts when it came to Football IQ - he could beat you with his mind. Luck reminds me this season of the way Steve Young used to play, he is still a running threat but a very accurate passer now. Steve Young was damn great too. 

[Colts_Fan12]

7 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Manning GOAT of all time in the regular season.  If I was starting a franchise that was a total dumpster fire, I would take Manning. That being said, he is not the GOAT when u factor in his play off performances. 

So your saying hes not the GOAT in a team category who cares 

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

So your saying hes not the GOAT in a team category who cares 

I do love how people say Peyton wasn't great in the Playoffs but yet his teams went 3-1 vs Tom's teams on the biggest stage in the AFC = AFC Title Games. Any QB that has led his teams to 4 SB appearances and has won 2 is at worse Good (maybe not Great but Good) in the Playoffs. Only 12 QB's in the history of the SB era has won 2 or more and Peyton is one of them. 

[Colts_Fan12]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I do love how people say Peyton wasn't great in the Playoffs but yet his teams went 3-1 vs Tom's teams on the biggest stage in the AFC = AFC Title Games. Any QB that has led his teams to 4 SB appearances and has won 2 is at worse Good (maybe not Great but Good) in the Playoffs. Only 12 QB's in the history of the SB era has won 2 or more and Peyton is one of them. 

Peoples excuses against peyton are so stupid lol I dont care what anyone says TB cant hold Peytons jock when it comes to talent never will hes not as smart and hes not as talented end of story 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Peoples excuses against peyton are so stupid lol I dont care what anyone says TB cant hold Peytons jock when it comes to talent never will hes not as smart and hes not as talented end of story 

If I was starting an all-time Draft and had the #1 pick I would take Peyton. IMO, Peyton is the one guy that could take a garbage team that is 0-16 and make them Good within 3 years even with a mediocre Coach. Had the Browns drafted Peyton he would've still been Peyton. We sucked when we drafted Peyton and then was 13-3 in his 2nd season.

[Colts_Fan12]

36 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If I was starting an all-time Draft and had the #1 pick I would take Peyton. IMO, Peyton is the one guy that could take a garbage team that is 0-16 and make them Good within 3 years even with a mediocre Coach. Had the Browns drafted Peyton he would've still been Peyton. We sucked when we drafted Peyton and then was 13-3 in his 2nd season.

I agree no player would be worth taking over Payton hes perfect like I say had he been couched by BB like Brady was no team would have won a SB until peyton retired lol

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I agree no player would be worth taking over Payton hes perfect like I say had he been couched by BB like Brady was no team would have won a SB until peyton retired lol

An all-time Draft is always an interesting topic. I would be curious to see who others would take #1. I would take Peyton like I said, Lawrence Taylor would be my 2nd choice, nothing like a Great Pass Rushing LB. Anyway back on topic, Luck has a real chance now to become an all-time great himself. We finally have a GM and a Coach that knows what they are doing 

[IinD]

20 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

I agree no player would be worth taking over Payton hes perfect like I say had he been couched by BB like Brady was no team would have won a SB until peyton retired lol

That's scary to think about, but I'd bet it would be true. At a minimum he'd have lost maybe one SB simply on the odds of a fluke loss.

They would have been beyond a deadly coach/QB combo.

[Chrisaaron1023]

8 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

No u r wrong.  That would b the Colts 3 to 1 Pats with Peyton Manning as the Colts qb and Glen as their LT and....so on and so on.

lol... except 2 were with the broncos 

[ColtsBlueFL]

23 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

I'm guessing that's why mora was fired and Tom Moore was retained.   Polian knew

 

That could possibly be a secondary reason. Actually it's not the impetus for the real reason.

 

The real reason was Polian wanted to field a Tampa/Cover 2 defense and asked Mora to fire Vic Fangio.  Jim Mora refused and thus Bill fired them both.

 

So Bill knew the incredible offense they were assembling with Peyton was eventually going to cost, and Fangio’s D, while exceptionally workable with the right personnel, was going to require smart veteran/expensive players to execute it.  ( 3-4 players with multiple disguises and sometimes run from a 4-3 Under alignment). The NFL cap rules would essentially prohibit teams from affording both.

 

Back then, Tampa 2 type players were easier to find (very helpful when drafting late in every round) less expense in payroll, and the system easier to learn (back then).  Line backers and corners seemed to rotate in and out. To this day, David Thornton is the One linebacker Bill totally dreads ever letting leave.

[Smonroe]

21 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

I'm guessing that's why mora was fired and Tom Moore was retained.   Polian knew

 

That's a good illustration of the differences between Manning and Luck.  Manning wasn't going to put up with a coach that was going to hinder his career.  Polian new it was a bad mix with Mora and Peyton was the franchise. 

 

Luck is too nice of a guy, and Grigson was an egotistical * who wouldn't take his side even if he did complain.

 

Water under the bridge.  We're on track now.  Just fix that defense!

 

 

[Superman]

20 hours ago, Trace Pyott said:

Wasn’t the main rule change that changed the nfl to what it is today the no contact with recievers after 5 yards?  When exactly was that implemented?   I know it was after we were mugged in NE. Looking at Manning’s stats most years after thAt he threw for around 30 to 39 td.  I think luck can easily throw that much this year with less talent around him. Like I said I’m not saying he’s manning, no one will be. He’s a once in a generation player for a franchise up there with the Jordan’s, Ruth’s, Gretzky’s etc. I just wanted to put in perspective the year that luck is having this year because I for one didn’t realize he was killing it as much as he was. 

 

The rule was on the books for a long time. They had just stopped calling it. The Patriots took advantage of that against us, and Polian used his position on the Comp Committee to make sure the rule was properly enforced moving forward. But I push back against the idea that Manning's statistical explosion in 2004 was simply about the rule enforcement. It helped, but that offense was primed to blow up already, then we added Stokley and Clark, and Edge was settling in as a wily vet after his knee injury. 

[Superman]

20 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

That's a good illustration of the differences between Manning and Luck.  Manning wasn't going to put up with a coach that was going to hinder his career.  Polian new it was a bad mix with Mora and Peyton was the franchise. 

 

Luck is too nice of a guy, and Grigson was an egotistical * who wouldn't take his side even if he did complain.

 

Water under the bridge.  We're on track now.  Just fix that defense!

 

I don't think Grigson was the problem there, besides his poor drafting. If it's true that Grigson pushed for Pep Hamilton, that's an indication that he wanted to get Luck in a more efficient and familiar offense. Pagano is the one who wanted the Coryell offense from the beginning. 

 

Pep didn't work out because he couldn't figure out an identity for his offense. But he wound up being better than Chud, IMO. 

[BOTT]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

 

That's a good illustration of the differences between Manning and Luck.  Manning wasn't going to put up with a coach that was going to hinder his career.  Polian new it was a bad mix with Mora and Peyton was the franchise. 

 

Luck is too nice of a guy, and Grigson was an egotistical * who wouldn't take his side even if he did complain.

 

Water under the bridge.  We're on track now.  Just fix that defense!

 

 

Manning forced Mora out?  That's a new one.

[Smonroe]

19 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Manning forced Mora out?  That's a new one.

 

This is news to you?   

 

That rock you’re living under must have really slow Wi-Fi.

[Surge89]

On 11/12/2018 at 5:36 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

One could argue that no other  high pick qb coming out of college had more to deal with and still excelled.  Talking bout Luck.

 

Ooof... Short term memories... Peyton came into a dumspter fire as well... With a coach that is now a common day football meme...

[BOTT]

10 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

Ooof... Short term memories... Peyton came into a dumspter fire as well... With a coach that is now a common day football meme...

Difference being Luck was winning playoff games in that dumpster fire. Not that Manning didn't do great things early on, he obviously did.....blah blah blah

 

and Jim Mora may not be a HOFer, but he was good solid coach who hired a heckuva staff that guided Manning for much of his career.  Even the young DC that Polian wanted him to fire turned out to be gem.

[ColtsBlueFL]

5 hours ago, Smonroe said:

 

This is news to you?   

 

That rock you’re living under must have really slow Wi-Fi.

 

And you are absolutely wrong. Manning didn't get Mora Fired, Mora was unwilling to fire Vic Fangio.

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2017/07/05/jim-mora-says-he-wont-come-back-indianapolis-peyton-mannings-statue-ceremony/453605001/

 

I also read this in Polian's book on my iPad

 

https://bit.ly/2DkUwLu

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

The only thing most people care about is winning, the only way most people in here will ever consider Luck better than Manning is, if he wins 2 SB's in a Colts uniform. I used the word MOST, not ALL but it's a true statement.

[Smonroe]

10 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

And you are absolutely wrong. Manning didn't get Mora Fired, Mora was unwilling to fire Vic Fangio.

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2017/07/05/jim-mora-says-he-wont-come-back-indianapolis-peyton-mannings-statue-ceremony/453605001/

 

I also read this in Polian's book on my iPad

 

https://bit.ly/2DkUwLu

 

 

You are correct, I forgot about that. 

 

In my initial post I was just trying to point out the difference between Peyton and Andrew.  Peyton wasn't going to keep quiet if he didn't agree with the head coach. 

 

I'm talking about the 4 interception game where Mora threw him under the bus and Peyton responded.  IMO, that also helped lay the bricks on the road to getting Mora out.  Obviously Moore was more important to Peyton, and Polian wanted a defensive coach who'd leave the offense alone.