Any doubt that Andrew Luck is elite now?

[Smoke317]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

or the 2000 Ravens 

Or Peyton or Eli’s 2 Super Bowl.  Probably Brady’s first 3 too...

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Or Peyton or Eli’s 2 Super Bowl.  Probably Brady’s first 3 too...

Our Defense finally showed up in the 2006 Playoffs against the Chiefs and Ravens and was Good but Peyton still had to score 38 against the Pats in order to win the AFC. Our Defense wasn't an all-time Great Defense. Peyton won us the game vs the Pats by playing a perfect 2nd Half. 

[tikyle]

I just don't see it with Luck.  He's an above average QB for sure.  But he's far from elite.  He misses too many throws on a game to game basis and he has too many throws directly to defenders as well.

 

To me elite are the guys who have less than 10 INT per year.  Guys have gotten to the point to where they throw a lot and have less than 5 INT per year.  I get that these receivers have a lot of drops and aren't that good but there have been plenty of times Luck just misses these guys when their wide open.  I mean total over or under throws.

 

He's not elite.  And if he wasn't our QB most on here wouldn't be saying he's elite as well.  Luck isn't better than Phillip Rivers and I haven't seen one person yet make the case for Rivers as elite.  BTW I believe Rivers is a HOF'er (and much, much better than little bro Eli) and I think that's the category Luck is closest to Rivers.

[Smoke317]

5 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Our Defense finally showed up in the 2006 Playoffs against the Chiefs and Ravens and was Good but Peyton still had to score 38 against the Pats in order to win the AFC. Our Defense wasn't an all-time Great Defense. Peyton won us the game vs the Pats by playing a perfect 2nd Half. 

Peyton had to score 38 because he threw a pick 6 & also was inept for the first 2 quarters and only scored 6 points in the first half...  So it was our defense that kept us from getting run out stadium until Peyton decided to “finally show up”...  Then it was our defense that sealed the game.

 

No they weren’t an all time great defense but they were the primary reason we won our lone Super Bowl.  Same with Peyton’s other win in Denver & both of Eli’s Bowls...  Sure they had good halves or games along the way but it was the defenses that won those rings. So Defenses more often than not win championships. 

[aaron11]

16 minutes ago, tikyle said:

I just don't see it with Luck.  He's an above average QB for sure.  But he's far from elite.  He misses too many throws on a game to game basis and he has too many throws directly to defenders as well.

 

To me elite are the guys who have less than 10 INT per year.  Guys have gotten to the point to where they throw a lot and have less than 5 INT per year.  I get that these receivers have a lot of drops and aren't that good but there have been plenty of times Luck just misses these guys when their wide open.  I mean total over or under throws.

 

He's not elite.  And if he wasn't our QB most on here wouldn't be saying he's elite as well.  Luck isn't better than Phillip Rivers and I haven't seen one person yet make the case for Rivers as elite.  BTW I believe Rivers is a HOF'er (and much, much better than little bro Eli) and I think that's the category Luck is closest to Rivers.

i guess it depends on what you consider elite.  to me hes a to 5-10 QB in the league, i dont necessarily call him elite, but i think hes very good

 

i agree that if he was elsewhere there would be a lot fewer colts fans calling him elite 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

15 minutes ago, tikyle said:

To me elite are the guys who have less than 10 INT per year.  Guys have gotten to the point to where they throw a lot and have less than 5 INT per year.

 

Uh... what?  Where are you getting this outrageous standard for "elite"?  Elite QBs routinely throw more than 10 INTs per season.

 

There have only been 3 QBs to play 16 games, throw over 400 times and have less than 5 INTs.

 

Steve DeBerg - 1990 Chiefs

Tom Brady - 2010 Pats

Dak Prescott - 2016 Cowboys

 

I don't know if you wanna put DeBerg and Prescott in the "elite" category... 

 

Check out this site and you can see a number of elite QBs that have thrown less than 10 INTs while playing a FULL season, but there are just as many QBs on this list that will get you laughed out of town if you try to call them "elite"...

 

https://www.sportingcharts.com/stats/nfl/all-time/fewest-passing-interceptions-in-a-single-season/

 

Gotta look at the whole picture, not just one stat-line... 

[tikyle]

6 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Gotta look at the whole picture, not just one stat-line... 

 

I am.  To me that's just his most glaring weakness.  I just think elite is on another level than great or even HOF.  Eli and Rothlisberger are both probably gonna be HOF'ers.  I don't consider either elite and I don't think either has ever been elite.  Elite is MVP for a season or best of the best at your position for most of your career.  Mahomes is having an elite year, Brady/Rodgers have had elite careers.  That's elite.  Luck has not entered that territory for a season, let alone his career.

 

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that's my definition of elite.  Elite to me is not just perennial pro bowler.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

Just now, tikyle said:

I am.  To me that's just his most glaring weakness.  I just think elite is on another level than great or even HOF.  Eli and Rothlisberger are both probably gonna be HOF'ers.  I don't consider either elite and I don't think either has ever been elite.  Elite is MVP for a season or best of the best at your position for most of your career.  Mahomes is having an elite year, Brady/Rodgers have had elite careers.  That's elite.  Luck has not entered that territory for a season, let alone his career.

 

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that's my definition of elite.  Elite to me is not just perennial pro bowler.

 

Ok, so now you're changing your definition of elite from "doesn't throw INTs" to "MVP-worthy for most of career". 

 

Peyton, Brees, Favre, Elway, and Marino are considered to have had elite careers, but routinely threw 10+ INTs per season...

 

So... by your standard, Brady and Rodgers are the only 2 elite QBs in NFL history because they kept the INTs down while having elite careers?

 

 

I mean, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it... but wow.

[aaron11]

8 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Ok, so now you're changing your definition of elite from "doesn't throw INTs" to "MVP-worthy for most of career". 

 

Peyton, Brees, Favre, Elway, and Marino are considered to have had elite careers, but routinely threw 10+ INTs per season...

 

So... by your standard, Brady and Rodgers are the only 2 elite QBs in NFL history because they kept the INTs down while having elite careers?

 

 

I mean, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it... but wow.

devils advocate here, what has luck ever won?  a couple of extremely weak afc south divisions i guess

 

pff has him 11th this year, and i do think he is very good.  elite is a strong word though 

[crazycolt1]

6 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

devils advocate here, what has luck ever won?  a couple of extremely weak afc south divisions i guess

 

pff has him 11th this year, and i do think he is very good.  elite is a strong word though 

Luck virtually broke most all records for his first 3 seasons and made an AFC championship game. You can't say he hasn't won anything.  He beat both the super bowl teams one of those years so you can't say he got all his wins in division.

[crazycolt1]

33 minutes ago, tikyle said:

 

I am.  To me that's just his most glaring weakness.  I just think elite is on another level than great or even HOF.  Eli and Rothlisberger are both probably gonna be HOF'ers.  I don't consider either elite and I don't think either has ever been elite.  Elite is MVP for a season or best of the best at your position for most of your career.  Mahomes is having an elite year, Brady/Rodgers have had elite careers.  That's elite.  Luck has not entered that territory for a season, let alone his career.

 

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that's my definition of elite.  Elite to me is not just perennial pro bowler.

[aaron11]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Luck virtually broke most all records for his first 3 seasons and made an AFC championship game. You can't say he hasn't won anything.  He beat both the super bowl teams one of those years so you can't say he got all his wins in division.

so he beat a couple of good teams, hes lost to some bad teams too. 

 

i know its also team game, imo luck is very good but not elite yet

[crazycolt1]

59 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Peyton had to score 38 because he threw a pick 6 & also was inept for the first 2 quarters and only scored 6 points in the first half...  So it was our defense that kept us from getting run out stadium until Peyton decided to “finally show up”...  Then it was our defense that sealed the game.

 

No they weren’t an all time great defense but they were the primary reason we won our lone Super Bowl.  Same with Peyton’s other win in Denver & both of Eli’s Bowls...  Sure they had good halves or games along the way but it was the defenses that won those rings. So Defenses more often than not win championships. 

Both Eli's super bowls?  Is that why he was named the MVP of both?

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, aaron11 said:

so he beat a couple of good teams, hes lost to some bad teams too. 

 

i know its also team game, imo luck is very good but not elite yet

No he beat a couple of great team and one of them was undefeated.  So get your facts straight please.

[aaron11]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

No he beat a couple of great team and one of them was undefeated.  So get your facts straight please.

so we can only look at the positives in this conversation? 

 

[aaron11]

to me rodgers, brady and brees are the elite qbs in the league.  i would not put luck on their level today

[chad72]

Luck is throwing in anticipation and trusting pass catchers not named TY more this year. This offense is really good for him. He has taken the step towards elite but until he can go toe-to-toe with Big Ben or Brady on offense when the game matters more and get a win against either of them, I will wait to crown him.

 

He is in the Top 7 conversation in the league, no doubt in my mind but he has to show more consistency down the stretch as well this year. Outside the obvious Rodgers, Brady, Brees, only Mahomes, Goff and Rivers are playing better than Luck, IMO. However, all the above mentioned QBs  definitely have a better supporting cast, IMO compared to Luck.

[Smoke317]

24 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Both Eli's super bowls?  Is that why he was named the MVP of both?

He was named MVP because he was the QB with the last name Manning...  Sure he played decent but the defense won those Super Bowls.  In those 2 Super Bowls, the Giants held the Patriots to 14 & 17 points.  And decent QB could have been able to put up 17 & 21 points & get those wins.  And the “MVP” of those games has shown that more often than not he can’t even get his team to the postseason let alone carry them to Super Bowl victories...  So again, the Defenses were the main reasonings behind those Super Bowl victories. Eli played a role but no way was he the main reason for their ultimate success. 

[chad72]

1 hour ago, Smoke317 said:

Peyton had to score 38 because he threw a pick 6 & also was inept for the first 2 quarters and only scored 6 points in the first half...  So it was our defense that kept us from getting run out stadium until Peyton decided to “finally show up”...  Then it was our defense that sealed the game.

 

No they weren’t an all time great defense but they were the primary reason we won our lone Super Bowl.  Same with Peyton’s other win in Denver & both of Eli’s Bowls...  Sure they had good halves or games along the way but it was the defenses that won those rings. So Defenses more often than not win championships. 

 

Defenses typically keep teams in games. Teams like the 2013 Seahawks and 2015 Broncos do not come around often. However, it is still up to the QB to finish games seizing upon those chances for possessions.

 

Eli's defense in 2007 - kept the game close at 10-14 till Eli had his game winning drive. Eli still had to get it done. It is pretty much impossible to expect a QB in the playoffs to score on every single drive, going against elite teams that have figured a way to keep scoring down. The Patriots' D was a unsung hero in their undefeated run till that point and it showed up in the fact that despite Brady not getting things going, they kept a team that put up 35 points on them a few weeks ago (Giants lose 35-38 to Patriots in last regular season game) to 17, they gave up 20 to Jaguars and 12 to Chargers that put up 28 against us here in Indy prior to that. So 20 points in the playoffs is typically hard earned. In 2011, Patriots went up 17-9 but the Giants kept them scoreless in the fourth quarter till the end but Eli still had to get 2 more FGs and the game winning TD drive. In 2014, the Seahawks went up 24-14 but the Patriots' D did not give up more in the 4th qtr. but Brady still had to score 2 TDs to get them to win.

 

Same way with our SB run - granted, we played one dimensional offenses in the Chiefs and Ravens that worked in our favor but against the Patriots, when we were down 6-21 at the half, our D forced enough punts that we outscored them 32-13 after the half. However, like I said before, the QB has to seize those chances and put TDs/points on the board. Football is the ultimate team sport, you cannot pin the credit just for one side because one feeds off each other. Peyton's 2nd SB however, in the SB, his D carried him. If Peyton was anywhere close to his prime, that game would have been over at the half but that D carried the old man. They did get 2 decent games out of him vs Steelers and Patriots prior to that.  

 

In the current NFL, over the last few years, it is pretty much impossible to limit a high powered offense to 20 points, so you will have to settle for around 25 points and be ready to score close to 30 points to win. Just my two cents. 

[coltsblue1844]

Let's be honest about a few things.

 

Until THIS year, Luck never had a good coaching staff around him and that includes the offensive coordinators calling the plays...

 

Until THIS year, Luck never had a good offensive line around him to give him the time to make the plays... he was the most hit QB in the NFL year in and year out (partly due to the poor play calling from the coaching staff)...

 

Luck is not far along into his career, but he just now got a good play caller for the first time in his career and has just now got protection from his O-line.

 

Now also everyone keep in mind that THIS SEASON is the first of his NFL career that he has had a line and coaching staff, and he is coming off of over 600 days off between games due to injury... so he is supposed to still be rusty and working himself back into the speed of the NFL, yet he is playing lights out for us right now.

 

With all of this said, my point is that he finally has the coaches, the o line and the offensive system to compliment all of his talent and ability...we need some better skill position players, but look for him to be even better NEXT year than he is right now (due to getting back into the groove after such a long layoff, as well as fully learning the new system etc). And i look for him to get better each year.

 

To me, he has all of the tools to be ELITE, but was missing the play calling/coaches and the protection/o-line...now he's just missing more skill players and some time in the system. To me, i think the sky is the limit moving forward.

 

I consider Peyton as the best to ever do it, but let's not forget all of the questions about him, his first several seasons.  It wasnt until the latter 2/3 of Peyton's career that he was considered truly ELITE, and look how that turned out.

 

Thank you, that is all... carry on  lol

[Aaron86]

11 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

He was named MVP because he was the QB with the last name Manning...  Sure he played decent but the defense won those Super Bowls.  In those 2 Super Bowls, the Giants held the Patriots to 14 & 17 points.  And decent QB could have been able to put up 17 & 21 points & get those wins.  And the “MVP” of those games has shown that more often than not he can’t even get his team to the postseason let alone carry them to Super Bowl victories...  So again, the Defenses were the main reasonings behind those Super Bowl victories. Eli played a role but no way was he the main reason for their ultimate success.

They all have had some pretty boneheaded throws. I would put Luck as elite because he will wreck havoic on a defense and has to be accounted for week in and week out. For him to be playing at this level after what two years off. That's the kind of player I consider ELITE. Wait til next year he's gonna be a monster for teams to deal with.

[runthepost]

He is in the tier below elite because of questionable throws still at times. Not as bad as it was a few years ago.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

He was named MVP because he was the QB with the last name Manning...  Sure he played decent but the defense won those Super Bowls.  In those 2 Super Bowls, the Giants held the Patriots to 14 & 17 points.  And decent QB could have been able to put up 17 & 21 points & get those wins.  And the “MVP” of those games has shown that more often than not he can’t even get his team to the postseason let alone carry them to Super Bowl victories...  So again, the Defenses were the main reasonings behind those Super Bowl victories. Eli played a role but no way was he the main reason for their ultimate success. 

In 2008 Manning lead the Giants to 3 playoff wins on the road and threw zero interceptions during that time.

In 2012 in the super bowl he went 30/40 for 296 yds. and a TD. 

Discounting Eli just makes you look bad. 

The breakaway he made during the super bowl is a thing that great QBs do. It has gone down in history as one of the greatest plays in super bowl history. The Giants defense didn't have anything to do with that.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

He was named MVP because he was the QB with the last name Manning...  Sure he played decent but the defense won those Super Bowls.  In those 2 Super Bowls, the Giants held the Patriots to 14 & 17 points.  And decent QB could have been able to put up 17 & 21 points & get those wins.  And the “MVP” of those games has shown that more often than not he can’t even get his team to the postseason let alone carry them to Super Bowl victories...  So again, the Defenses were the main reasonings behind those Super Bowl victories. Eli played a role but no way was he the main reason for their ultimate success. 

Did you bother to look at the Patriots defense?  Their team didn't go undefeated just on Brady's arm.

[tikyle]

4 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Ok, so now you're changing your definition of elite from "doesn't throw INTs" to "MVP-worthy for most of career". 

 

Peyton, Brees, Favre, Elway, and Marino are considered to have had elite careers, but routinely threw 10+ INTs per season...

 

So... by your standard, Brady and Rodgers are the only 2 elite QBs in NFL history because they kept the INTs down while having elite careers?

 

 

I mean, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it... but wow.

You just keep reaching.

 

I haven't changed my definition of elite.  I said to me that is what separates Luck right now from being in that elite level.  And by my standards, no their haven't only been 2 elite QB's in NFL history, but to me their are only 2 elite QBs that are actively playing in the NFL right now.  Brees is on the fringe but I would tend to add him in if I was put on the spot.

 

Nice try though.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, tikyle said:

You just keep reaching.

 

I haven't changed my definition of elite.  I said to me that is what separates Luck right now from being in that elite level.  And by my standards, no their haven't only been 2 elite QB's in NFL history, but to me their are only 2 elite QBs that are actively playing in the NFL right now.  Brees is on the fringe but I would tend to add him in if I was put on the spot.

 

Nice try though.

The thing is your standards means zero to anyone but you.

Nice try though.

[Smoke317]

2 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Did you bother to look at the Patriots defense?  Their team didn't go undefeated just on Brady's arm.

That offense led them to 18-1.  The defense played a role.  Football is a team game so you need all 3 phases.  And I’m not denying Eli’s role on the team.  He was the QB, which is the most important position, but if he’s this great leader why hasn’t he done squat outside of those 2 Super Bowl runs?  

How many playoff games can you remember the Patriots being held under 20 points?  Give Eli the MVP (more for the 2nd than the 1st) but the real catalyst for those Super Bowl wins was the defense.  And I don’t give him much credit for the Tyree Hail Mary helmet catch.  Fluke play all around.  But his strike to Manningham was a thing of beauty.  

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Smoke317 said:

That offense led them to 18-1.  The defense played a role.  Football is a team game so you need all 3 phases.  And I’m not denying Eli’s role on the team.  He was the QB, which is the most important position, but if he’s this great leader why hasn’t he done squat outside of those 2 Super Bowl runs?  

How many playoff games can you remember the Patriots being held under 20 points?  Give Eli the MVP (more for the 2nd than the 1st) but the real catalyst for those Super Bowl wins was the defense.  And I don’t give him much credit for the Tyree Hail Mary helmet catch.  Fluke play all around.  But his strike to Manningham was a thing of beauty.  

I guess you want to overlook what Eli did prior to the Tyree catch?  That was no fluke.

 4 time pro bowl

most 4th quarter TDs with 15

tied for most 4th quarter winning drive with 8

He is the only QB in history with no interception in conference championship starts.

None of these are related to the defense.

Say what you want Eli has done more than what you call squat.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Football is such a team game that it takes Good to Great QB play and Good to Great Defense to win a SB in reality. In 2006 our Defense stepped up and played Good to Great but without Peyton stepping up vs the Pats we don't even win the Conference. People can also say what they want about Peyton's 2nd SB win as in Denver's Defense carried him. It did in 2015 but without him they do not get by the Pats in the AFC. I will always believe that and believe Brock would've pooped his pants in that AFC Title Game vs BB and Brady. Peyton played mistake free and got Denver the early 7-0 lead on a Great drive.

[Aaron86]

Let's just forget all the amazing things Andrew has done and just focus on the BONEHEADED throws.

[2006Coltsbestever]

A lot of people define 'Elite' differently. He hasn't had the career that Brady, Rodgers, and Brees has had so is Luck in that group, I would say no. Are we talking right now as in today? If so I would take Luck over Eli and Ben and they both have won 2 SB's. Mahomes is having a Great Rookie Season but it's only 1 season. Luck's 1st 3 seasons were Very Good to Great, 2014 was Great where he threw 40 TD's and made the AFC Title Game. People talk about INT's, here's a fact that people don't even realize = When Peyton won MVP in 2009 he threw 16 INT's. Peyton actually threw 15 or more INT's 9 times in his career and he is in most people's Top 5 QB's ever. He is in my Top 3.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

8 hours ago, tikyle said:

You just keep reaching.

 

I haven't changed my definition of elite.

I'm just going by what you said:

 

13 hours ago, tikyle said:

To me elite are the guys who have less than 10 INT per year.  Guys have gotten to the point to where they throw a lot and have less than 5 INT per year.

 

And then:

 

12 hours ago, tikyle said:

Elite is MVP for a season or best of the best at your position for most of your career.

 

Maybe you didn't change your definition.  Maybe you just need to elaborate on your definition a little more, because it seems like your standard for elite is insanely high.  Especially if you don't consider Brees elite. 

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I was just taken aback by your standard for elite. 

 

It's all relative.  I'm not ready to put Luck in the same company as Peyton and Brady, but compared to all the scrubs that enter and exit the league every year, Andrew could be considered elite. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

31 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

I'm just going by what you said:

 

 

And then:

 

 

Maybe you didn't change your definition.  Maybe you just need to elaborate on your definition a little more, because it seems like your standard for elite is insanely high.  Especially if you don't consider Brees elite. 

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I was just taken aback by your standard for elite. 

 

It's all relative.  I'm not ready to put Luck in the same company as Peyton and Brady, but compared to all the scrubs that enter and exit the league every year, Andrew could be considered elite. 

He was all over the place, Brees like Peyton has thrown for 15 or more INT's 9 times as well. Brees has never been considered the best QB in the league either or won an MVP. He is definitely Elite though. 

[Dark Superman]

Can't wait to see Luck in year two under Reich with hopefully an upgraded WR core and defense.

[tikyle]

18 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

The thing is your standards means zero to anyone but you.

Nice try though.

LOL.  That is true.

 

But as I said before, show me what Andrew Luck does better than Phillip Rivers?  And if you can't, show me where you were saying Rivers is elite?

 

Luck is a top 10 QB.   But he's not in the top 5.  That's not elite.  No one says, wow they have a top 10 defense somewhere around 7 or so, it's elite an unit.  No, it's usually the top 2 or 3 that they describe as elite for almost everything.  But for some reason teams and fans all want their QB to be elite because they have a SB ring or because they have a nice run of games.

 

Why can't Luck just be a top 10 QB?  That's still better than 22+ teams can say.

[crazycolt1]

6 hours ago, tikyle said:

LOL.  That is true.

 

But as I said before, show me what Andrew Luck does better than Phillip Rivers?  And if you can't, show me where you were saying Rivers is elite?

 

Luck is a top 10 QB.   But he's not in the top 5.  That's not elite.  No one says, wow they have a top 10 defense somewhere around 7 or so, it's elite an unit.  No, it's usually the top 2 or 3 that they describe as elite for almost everything.  But for some reason teams and fans all want their QB to be elite because they have a SB ring or because they have a nice run of games.

 

Why can't Luck just be a top 10 QB?  That's still better than 22+ teams can say.

Where did I say one word about Rivers?  IMO Rivers is an elite QB for your information. Marino has no rings but he was an elite QB.

An elite player in any position are the ones who play better than average.

You are confusing perfect with elite.

[2006Coltsbestever]

I would take Luck over Rivers but Rivers is damn Great in reality. I think Luck is a hair better - it's close, both have made an AFC Title Game but Luck does have that 40 TD season, Rivers doesn't. IMO by the eye test you can just see Luck can do more things better, like running and throwing on the run. Rivers threw 21 INT's in 2016, Luck has never thrown more than 20 in a season.

[Malakai432]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

Where did I say one word about Rivers?  IMO Rivers is an elite QB for your information. Marino has no rings but he was an elite QB.

An elite player in any position are the ones who play better than average.

You are confusing perfect with elite.

 

Yeah I'd say Rivers is pretty elite.  If he adds a super bowl ring he's a sure fire hall of famer.  

[Aaron86]

Elite to me is a player who can carry your team like Von Miller, Manning, Brady, Watt, Rogers, Luck, Brees just to name a few. Stats can sometimes be misleading and miscued. But that's just my opinion.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, Aaron86 said:

Elite to me is a player who can carry your team like Von Miller, Manning, Brady, Watt, Rogers, Luck, Brees just to name a few. Stats can sometimes be misleading and miscued. But that's just my opinion.

Yeah that is a huge equation in factoring in rankings and who is Great or just Very Good as in, can a player carry a team? Luck can IMO, so you have a point.