csmopar

Chubb vs the Maniac

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2 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

I like Leonard, but that's really not a fair comparison is it?

 

 

how is it not? They're both rookies, both playing at LB, both starting 4 games. Leonard is spanking Chubb in performance so far

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Just now, csmopar said:

how is it not? They're both rookies, both playing a LB, both starting 4 games. Leonard is spanking Chubb in performance so far

 

I haven't watch Denver but isn't Chubb mainly a situational pass rush specialist?  They're both LBs in name but not in responsibility.

 

Leonard is an all around LB, and he's excellent.  But Chubb may be a better pass rusher.

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5 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

I haven't watch Denver but isn't Chubb mainly a situational pass rush specialist?  They're both LBs in name but not in responsibility.

 

Leonard is an all around LB, and he's excellent.  But Chubb may be a better pass rusher.

Hes been playing at the OLB in Denver.  Snap counts between Leonard and Chubb, 291/209

if you take the number of hurries by each and divide by the snap count,  you'll find Leonard is in the backfield nearly 5 times more than Chubb (4.63 times more).

3 minutes ago, Caleb Randolph said:

I think chubb would be a better DE in a 4-3 than a OLB in a 3-4. Imo a 4-3 fits his skill set better.

maybe but hes playing at the OLB spot.

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So far Chubb 1.5 Sacks and 7 Tackles in 4 games. Not good at all. Not here to bash the guy but so far he looks bad. It's early I get it but some in here was putting the guy on pedestal. I am glad we ended up with Nelson I will leave it at that.

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3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

So far Chubb 1.5 Sacks and 7 Tackles in 4 games. Not good at all. Not here to bash the guy but so far he looks bad. It's early I get it but some in here was putting the guy on pedestal. I am glad we ended up with Nelson I will leave it at that.

i didn't post this as a way to make Chubb look bad or to bash him.  Merely to show that sometimes, all that pre-draft talk is just that, talk.  Chubb may flip a switch but one thing that always worried me was his size. at nearly 300 pounds, him at LB isn't gonna work well for him. But yet thats where he plays. 

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1 minute ago, csmopar said:

i didn't post this as a way to make Chubb look bad or to bash him.  Merely to show that sometimes, all that pre-draft talk is just that, talk.  Chubb may flip a switch but one thing that always worried me was his size. at nearly 300 pounds, him at LB isn't gonna work well for him. But yet thats where he plays. 

I know you wasn't. I just wanted to let people I wasn't trying to bash Chubb either but so far he doesn't look good.

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I've only watched 1 Denver game and that was the Monday night game against the Chiefs.  I will say in that game Chubb looked good, really good.  If the Broncos had been playing a less team with a less mobile QB, Chubb would have had 2 or 3 sacks.

 

I like Nelson and I think he was a good pick at #6.  But if the Colts had taken Chubb I think he would be doing very well in this Colts D.  I like the Leonard pick as well but I don't understand the need of some posters to try and make a Colts player look better by trying to make a player on another team look bad.  I mean Leonard has better stats than Von Miller as well, does that mean the Colts made the right move not having Von Miller on the team?

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7 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I've only watched 1 Denver game and that was the Monday night game against the Chiefs.  I will say in that game Chubb looked good, really good.  If the Broncos had been playing a less team with a less mobile QB, Chubb would have had 2 or 3 sacks.

 

I like Nelson and I think he was a good pick at #6.  But if the Colts had taken Chubb I think he would be doing very well in this Colts D.  I like the Leonard pick as well but I don't understand the need of some posters to try and make a Colts player look better by trying to make a player on another team look bad.  I mean Leonard has better stats than Von Miller as well, does that mean the Colts made the right move not having Von Miller on the team?

IMO I don't think that was csmopar's intention. Almost everyone in here wanted Chubb and so far not only has Leonard been better but so has Nelson.

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I don't think the comparison should be chubb vs leanord since leonard was drafted in the 2nd round and chubb at #4 overall. In fact if we stayed at #3 we could have drafted both, right. I think leanord would have been there with our original pick in round 2?

 

The comparison I think is who has been more productive so far, chubb or nelson? 

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17 minutes ago, csmopar said:

i didn't post this as a way to make Chubb look bad or to bash him.  Merely to show that sometimes, all that pre-draft talk is just that, talk.  Chubb may flip a switch but one thing that always worried me was his size. at nearly 300 pounds, him at LB isn't gonna work well for him. But yet thats where he plays. 

 

I would not be surprised if the Broncos switch to a 4-3. When they had Ware and Miller, the 1-gap 3-4 made a lot of sense with Malik Jackson and Wolfe in the middle because they have more traditional NTs instead of 1-gapping UTs. But now, it seems like the 4-3 would do them a lot of good. Plus, DeMarcus Walker that they drafted would fit into their DE/UT depth better too.

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If you want to make a comparison, Turay is who he should be compared to.  Per snap, Turay probably compares favorably as well.

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1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

I would not be surprised if the Broncos switch to a 4-3. When they had Ware and Miller, the 1-gap 3-4 made a lot of sense. But now, it seems like the 4-3 would do them a lot of good. 

 

If they were still running Wade Phillips' system, they'd figure it out. 

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10 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I've only watched 1 Denver game and that was the Monday night game against the Chiefs.  I will say in that game Chubb looked good, really good.  If the Broncos had been playing a less team with a less mobile QB, Chubb would have had 2 or 3 sacks.

 

I like Nelson and I think he was a good pick at #6.  But if the Colts had taken Chubb I think he would be doing very well in this Colts D.  I like the Leonard pick as well but I don't understand the need of some posters to try and make a Colts player look better by trying to make a player on another team look bad.  I mean Leonard has better stats than Von Miller as well, does that mean the Colts made the right move not having Von Miller on the team?

What I'm saying is that at the #3 pick, as of now, he's not making an impact yet a 2nd rounder is.  Chubb was even compared to being a once in a life time version of LT in the lead up to the draft.

1 minute ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

I don't think the comparison should be chubb vs leanord since leonard was drafted in the 2nd round and chubb at #4 overall. In fact if we stayed at #3 we could have drafted both, right. I think leanord would have been there with our original pick in round 2?

 

The comparison I think is who has been more productive so far, chubb or nelson? 

its a straight comparison between two LBs, using the same metrics.

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

IMO I don't think that was csmopar's intention. Almost everyone in here wanted Chubb and so far not only has Leonard been better but so has Nelson.

exactly. Looks like we got two impact guys. instead of one thats been quiet to date.  Again, this is too early and I'm not calling Chubb a bust by any means. I'm just saying he's not the instant impact maker many on this forum were clamoring over

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17 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

If they were still running Wade Phillips' system, they'd figure it out. 

 

However, Chubb is more of the prototypical 4-3 DE plus DeMarcus Walker that they drafted fits the profile of the 4-3 DE/UT, IMO. Then they seem to have more traditional NTs than UTs that push the pocket well, with Malik Jackson gone to use them for 1-gapping. They will have one heck of a UT rotation if they switch to the 4-3, based on the personnel I see, and that will serve them well on passing downs. Right now, their biggest issue is that their LBs cannot cover, and that will be fixed via drafting if they draft for the 4-3.

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

IMO I don't think that was csmopar's intention. Almost everyone in here wanted Chubb and so far not only has Leonard been better but so has Nelson.

Whether that was the intent or not, that is what he's doing.  Additionally, it wasn't an either/or  choice between Chubb and Leonard.  One, Chubb would not be an OLB in the Colts D.  Two, the Colts did not have a shot at Chubb.

 

I think Nelson has been doing excellent as a rookie guard but how anyone can say Nelson has been doing better than Chubb is beyond me.  That would require a level of understanding of the not only the Colts blocking schemes and assignments on every play AND a complete understanding of Denver's D scheme and assignment on every play to make that statement, and no fan has that level of understanding.

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4 minutes ago, csmopar said:

What I'm saying is that at the #3 pick, as of now, he's not making an impact yet a 2nd rounder is.  Chubb was even compared to being a once in a life time version of LT in the lead up to the draft.

its a straight comparison between two LBs, using the same metrics.

exactly. Looks like we got two impact guys. instead of one thats been quiet to date.  Again, this is too early and I'm not calling Chubb a bust by any means. I'm just saying he's not the instant impact maker many on this forum were clamoring over

Yeah Chubb still may end up Good or even Great. I had him 3rd on my board for Indy to pick. I wanted Barkley 1st, Nelson 2nd, Chubb 3rd. So I thought highly of Chubb but very happy we ended up with Nelson out of those 3. 

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Both teams should be pleased with who they have. I thought Chubb did a good job Monday night against the Chiefs. 

 

Chubb may not be game changing yet, but I figured it would take some time for him to figure things out, and lets not forget that Denver still has a lot of good talent around him. So while the numbers don't add up, the video tape does tell the story of a player who will be quite good for a while in Denver. 

 

Mind you, I am very happy that we got Nelson and Leonard. They are perfect for what our team needs. 

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Just now, Coffeedrinker said:

Whether that was the intent or not, that is what he's doing.  Additionally, it wasn't an either/or  choice between Chubb and Leonard.  One, Chubb would not be an OLB in the Colts D.  Two, the Colts did not have a shot at Chubb.

 

I think Nelson has been doing excellent as a rookie guard but how anyone can say Nelson has been doing better than Chubb is beyond me.  That would require a level of understanding of the not only the Colts blocking schemes and assignments on every play AND a complete understanding of Denver's D scheme and assignment on every play to make that statement, and no fan has that level of understanding.

theres some fans on here that have that level. 

 

and you've completely missed the point. actually, you're proving my point. my point is that hype means little and that ballard seems to have done quite well with this past draft.

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2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah Chubb still may end up Good or even Great. I had him 3rd on my board for Indy to pick. I wanted Barkley 1st, Nelson 2nd, Chubb 3rd. So I thought highly of Chubb but very happy we ended up with Nelson out of those 3. 

close to me, I wanted Nelson, Chubb and then Barkley. I've been watching Chubb and the Broncos closely this season, which is why I post it.  He's not been terrible but he's been rather underwhelming and disappointing for what I was expecting from him

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2 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Whether that was the intent or not, that is what he's doing.  Additionally, it wasn't an either/or  choice between Chubb and Leonard.  One, Chubb would not be an OLB in the Colts D.  Two, the Colts did not have a shot at Chubb.

 

I think Nelson has been doing excellent as a rookie guard but how anyone can say Nelson has been doing better than Chubb is beyond me.  That would require a level of understanding of the not only the Colts blocking schemes and assignments on every play AND a complete understanding of Denver's D scheme and assignment on every play to make that statement, and no fan has that level of understanding.

To me Nelson looks solid at his position, I have watched him alot. I really haven't watched Chubb much but 1.5 Sacks and 7 Tackles in 4 games isn't good is all I was saying. Chubb may end up being a Bosa type for all I know, so I am not bashing Chubb but the numbers speak for themselves so far.

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14 minutes ago, csmopar said:

What I'm saying is that at the #3 pick, as of now, he's not making an impact yet a 2nd rounder is.  Chubb was even compared to being a once in a life time version of LT in the lead up to the draft.

its a straight comparison between two LBs, using the same metrics.

exactly. Looks like we got two impact guys. instead of one thats been quiet to date.  Again, this is too early and I'm not calling Chubb a bust by any means. I'm just saying he's not the instant impact maker many on this forum were clamoring over

If all you are looking at is the stats then you are probably correct on the impact.  In the Chiefs game he made an impact on quite a few plays and he was very disruptive when he was in there.

 

Just because both are listed as LBers does not mean they play the same position.  To try and make my point here is another metric.  Chubb has only allowed about 1/10 the number of pass completions that Leonard has allowed.  Chubb is having a much bigger impact in coverage than Leonard.

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I wanted Chubb but I also wanted Leonard so I'm happy.

On another note, I'm starting to think people are being revisionist about how fans and even scouts viewed Chubb pre-draft though. Even as somebody who really wanted him, I never said and never saw any of his supporters here say he could be LT. Heck, most people that wanted him admitted that Myles Garrett was a better prospect, since they were compared a lot.

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6 minutes ago, csmopar said:

theres some fans on here that have that level. 

 

and you've completely missed the point. actually, you're proving my point. my point is that hype means little and that ballard seems to have done quite well with this past draft.

To your first point.... no there is not and I'm sorry but it's ludicrous to even suggest that they do.  Superman and Chad72 would come the closest and I think even then would admit they are no where close to be able to do that.

 

I agree I think Ballard has done well with his drafts.  If that was your point though, why mention Chubb at all?  Hype does not mean much but neither does stats after 4 games.

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Instead of Chubb possibly at #3 this is what we got from the Jets picks:

 

Nelson

Smith

Turay

Top 40(likely) pick in 2019

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53 minutes ago, csmopar said:

how is it not? They're both rookies, both playing at LB, both starting 4 games. Leonard is spanking Chubb in performance so far

 

Chubb's an edge rusher, & he has to win 1 on 1 matchups to get to the QB, whereas Leonard has been pretty much unblocked for all 4 of his sacks. Not a fair comparison if you ask me. Now, if you want to compare Chubb's production thus far to Kemoko Turay, that's a different story altogether.

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Ya Turay is a closer comparison. 3-4 OLB is pretty much a DE, not a mlb. MLBs always lead their team in tackles. That’s just how it is.

Also should we talk about how Nelson is getting outplayed by other guards drafted much lower than him?

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Being the guy was a top 5 pick in the Draft, we need to compare Chubb to guys like Joey Bosa who were picked in the Top 5 and play the same position. Bosa had 10.5 Sacks his rookie season and even missed 4 games. 12.5 Sacks in year 2. This is very fair.

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13 minutes ago, Luck 4 president said:

 

Also should we talk about how Nelson is getting outplayed by other guards drafted much lower than him?

sure, go for it. 

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41 minutes ago, Superman said:

There's no comparison. Leonard is an off ball LB, Chubb is an edge defender. They play two different positions, they have very different responsibilities, and there's no reason to compare them to each other. 

 

Leonard is looking like an awesome pick. He doesn't fill a void for an edge defender, though. Thankfully, we have other edge defenders playing well. 

 

 

By the way, comparing any players after just four games is incredibly premature. 

Glad someone spoke out the difference.  It'd be like comparing Ray Lewis to  Vince Miller.  Just not the same.  

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1 minute ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Glad someone spoke out the difference.  It'd be like comparing Ray Lewis to  Vince Miller.  Just not the same.  

Lets compare Chubb to Joey Bosa then. Bosa is even slower but was Great his 1st 2 years. If you are picked in the Top 5 pick then any player should make an immediate impact. JMO.

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26 minutes ago, Luck 4 president said:

Ya Turay is a closer comparison.

 

31 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Chubb's an edge rusher, & he has to win 1 on 1 matchups to get to the QB, whereas Leonard has been pretty much unblocked for all 4 of his sacks. Not a fair comparison if you ask me. Now, if you want to compare Chubb's production thus far to Kemoko Turay, that's a different story altogether.

 

26 minutes ago, Luck 4 president said:

Ya Turay is a closer comparison. 3-4 OLB is pretty much a DE, not a mlb. MLBs always lead their team in tackles. That’s just how it is.

Also should we talk about how Nelson is getting outplayed by other guards drafted much lower than him?


oh my, its a broken record in here or an echo..

Lets compare them then:

Chubb. 4 games played, 4 started: 10 tackles,  7 solo,  3 assists, 1.5 sacks, snaps played, 209, 79% of all D snaps for respective team
Kemoko Turay 4 games played, No Starts: 6 tackles, 3 Solos, 3 Assists, 2.0 Sacks, snaps played, 134, 43% of all D Snaps for respective team

so having played 36% LESS than chubb, Turay's numbers being nearly identical (only 4 less tackles) in a way supports my thesis just as the Leonard comparison did. That thesis being that surprisingly, Chubb has been relatively quiet thus far and draft position/hype means little once the pads come on.

 

 

Thus far. 

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4 minutes ago, PeterBowman said:

yeah I'm interested to hear this....and not from PFF comparison grades.

yeah, I'm not on PFT. all my stats i posted came directly from the NFL and taken at face value with no "expert opinion"

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1 hour ago, csmopar said:

A LOT of posters on here, wanted the Colts to take Chubb at 3 and were disappointed that we couldnt after we traded out of the 3rd. So after 4 games, i thought a side by side comparison thus far would be interesting.  Lets just say it is.

 

Bradley Chubb:   10 tackles,  7 solo,  3 assists, 1.5 sacks

Darius Leonard: 54 tackles, 38 solo, 16 assist, 4.0 sacks

 

Nope. Not a good comparison 

 

Chubb is out of position in that 3-4 defense which is what a lot of scouts said once Denver pulled the trigger

 

Chubb is a DE, not an LB. In a 3-4 he’ll probably just be average at best

 

Put him in a 4-3 and he’ll be a lot better 

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54 minutes ago, Superman said:

There's no comparison. Leonard is an off ball LB, Chubb is an edge defender. They play two different positions, they have very different responsibilities, and there's no reason to compare them to each other. 

 

Leonard is looking like an awesome pick. He doesn't fill a void for an edge defender, though. Thankfully, we have other edge defenders playing well. 

 

 

By the way, comparing any players after just four games is incredibly premature. 

Chubb should have more sacks playing opposite von miller

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23 minutes ago, Luck 4 president said:

Ya Turay is a closer comparison. 3-4 OLB is pretty much a DE, not a mlb. MLBs always lead their team in tackles. That’s just how it is.

Also should we talk about how Nelson is getting outplayed by other guards drafted much lower than him?

 

How about Nelson vs. Derwin James comparison? I would have to think HOU doesn't throw for 375 yards on the Colts with James back there. Could have had James + 2 more 2nd rounders.

 

Regardless, all of these comparison are premature.

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