Front Four Looks

[ztboiler]

Based on the first preseason game and practice reports it appears that our base front four look is emerging with a heavier LDE (Hunt) along with a lighter UT (Autry).  We also saw heavier looks with Ridgeway and Stewart or Woods on the field together and nickel fronts with Simon or Basham and Sheard to go with Autry and Woods on the inside.

 

For me...I’m a little relieved to see the mixed fronts though still a bit concerned that we will be too light to hold up against the run overall.

[chad72]

10 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

For me...I’m a little relieved to see the mixed fronts though still a bit concerned that we will be too light to hold up against the run overall.

 

This would be deja vu, wouldn't it, from the Dungy days? Let us hope we don't relive that again. Ravens' power blocking schemes for their runs and our DL performance should give us an idea in pre-season game 2 as to how we do. 

[Jason_]

35 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

Based on the first preseason game and practice reports it appears that our base front four look is emerging with a heavier LDE (Hunt) along with a lighter UT (Autry).  We also saw heavier looks with Ridgeway and Stewart or Woods on the field together and nickel fronts with Simon or Basham and Sheard to go with Autry and Woods on the inside.

 

For me...I’m a little relieved to see the mixed fronts though still a bit concerned that we will be too light to hold up against the run overall.

 

I agree.  I'd personally like to see Hunt/Simon - Ridgeway - Woods - Sheard as the "heavy" front 4 (not goalline)

[ztboiler]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

This would be deja vu, wouldn't it, from the Dungy days? Let us hope we don't relive that again. Ravens' power blocking schemes for their runs and our DL performance should give us an idea in pre-season game 2 as to how we do. 

Repeating history is going to be a valid concern until proven otherwise.

[NannyMcafee]

The reason things were so bad in the Dungy days is because most of our focus during the draft was for the offense. 

 

Dline, and Oline were also not Polians strengths, which is where our defense struggled. 

 

I would put more of the fault on polian than dungy. He just didn’t take the lines seriously at the end of that era. 

[Superman]

3 hours ago, J@son said:

 

I agree.  I'd personally like to see Hunt/Simon - Ridgeway - Woods - Sheard as the "heavy" front 4 (not goalline)

 

Ridgeway looked good at 3 tech. 

[DaColts85]

2 hours ago, ztboiler said:

Repeating history is going to be a valid concern until proven otherwise.

Well if Luck can have better composure and ball management compared to Peyton we will be just fine. Even with the D in the Dungy days our offense was built to score and they were built to bend not break. When healthy they were not bad. Minus turnovers by Manning and a kick by Vanderjact we could have had a drastically different decade of dominance. So I assume the defense might not ever be a 00's Ravens but could still be just as good as the 06 Colts. Full perspective to that same history!

[PrincetonTiger]

53 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

The reason things were so bad in the Dungy days is because most of our focus during the draft was for the offense. 

 

Dline, and Oline were also not Polians strengths, which is where our defense struggled. 

 

I would put more of the fault on polian than dungy. He just didn’t take the lines seriously at the end of that era. 

 IMO the Front Fourvlooked solid in Game 1

[Coffeedrinker]

19 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Ridgeway looked good at 3 tech. 

He did.  But I wonder how much of that was him and how much of it was he was playing against someone really, really bad.

 

I'm a fan of Ridgeway so I'm hoping it's the former.  

[Surge89]

13 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

He did.  But I wonder how much of that was him and how much of it was he was playing against someone really, really bad.

 

I'm a fan of Ridgeway so I'm hoping it's the former.  

 

Oh Coffee I know its that love for the burnt orange coursing through your veins

[ztboiler]

27 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

He did.  But I wonder how much of that was him and how much of it was he was playing against someone really, really bad.

 

I'm a fan of Ridgeway so I'm hoping it's the former.  

Ridgeway got some good push against the 1’s in the first half

[Superman]

4 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

He did.  But I wonder how much of that was him and how much of it was he was playing against someone really, really bad.

 

I'm a fan of Ridgeway so I'm hoping it's the former.  

 

Yeah, Seattle's issues at OL are well documented. I didn't pay any attention to who he was beating, but he showed some of the quickness and burst he had in college. We've seen precious little of that from him in the NFL, so I'll take it as a positive.

 

Henry Anderson is currently getting solid push in this Jets game. I still think he would have fit our defense at 3 tech and wish we would have kept him. But it's a position at which we had a few players, and he's not special, so clearing a little logjam in exchange for a pick makes some sense. 

[Two_pound]

I don't think there is any way Hunt makes the team. Johnson, Bashem, Turay, Simon and Sheard will be the ends. Woods, Autry, Stewert, Ridgeway, and Lewis inside. Just my opinion.

[dgambill]

8 minutes ago, Two_pound said:

I don't think there is any way Hunt makes the team. Johnson, Bashem, Turay, Simon and Sheard will be the ends. Woods, Autry, Stewert, Ridgeway, and Lewis inside. Just my opinion.

Coming into the season I would say that but I didn’t think he would stay on the team last year yet he was one of the few dlinemen that got penetration and made plays last year. He actually is getting better now that he has actually learned the game unlike when he was just a raw athlete in Cincy. He is going to make it tough to cut him imo...and he will land on someone’s lineup.

[Hoose]

Honestly, Bashem might be the guy given his walking papers. Don't be surprised if he's on the practice squad. 

[Two_pound]

Yea, he will be a tough cut, but I don't see him making it over any of those 5. I hope Nunez-Roches can make the team, but who would you cut?

[Tombstone]

9 hours ago, Two_pound said:

I don't think there is any way Hunt makes the team. Johnson, Bashem, Turay, Simon and Sheard will be the ends. Woods, Autry, Stewert, Ridgeway, and Lewis inside. Just my opinion.

Im not so sure Bashem is a lock at this moment....  From stater to 3rd string deep chart I hear

[ColtsBlueFL]

I think in base Defense, on run type situations, gap discipline and control will be key.  Even then, off tackle runs can be a weakness in a cover 2 type base.

[rock8591]

Autry at DE, Ridgeway at DT. That's the way to go IMO.

[krunk]

On 8/17/2018 at 9:45 PM, Hoose said:

Honestly, Bashem might be the guy given his walking papers. Don't be surprised if he's on the practice squad. 

I'm starting to develop concerns about that. No plays made during camp and more time being spent with the 3s is a recipe for playing deep into the last preseason game. Interesting to see if he responds on Monday night. We brought in Ryan Delaire, plus there is Chris Mcain. And there may even be others who are better on the waiver wire. I'm hoping he turns it up a notch. I like him but I ain't stupid.

[krunk]

On 8/17/2018 at 9:47 PM, Two_pound said:

Yea, he will be a tough cut, but I don't see him making it over any of those 5. I hope Nunez-Roches can make the team, but who would you cut?

I havnt seen or heard squat from nunez roches.

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

4 minutes ago, krunk said:

I'm starting to develop concerns about that. No plays made during camp and more time being spent with the 3s. Interesting to see if he responds on Monday night. We brought in Ryan Delaire, plus there is Chris Mcain. And there may even be others who are better on the waiver wire. I'm hoping he turns it up a notch. I like him but I ain't stupid.

With ya here, there seems to be quite a bit of extra competition around this year for dline. If he does get sent down to ps, maybe it will light a fire and give the dude tackling fuel. If not, could be a draft bust for CBall. 

[ztboiler]

On 8/17/2018 at 10:32 PM, Two_pound said:

I don't think there is any way Hunt makes the team. Johnson, Bashem, Turay, Simon and Sheard will be the ends. Woods, Autry, Stewert, Ridgeway, and Lewis inside. Just my opinion.

I’ll defer comment on Hunt making the team to a time at which he is no longer running with the 1’s.

[ztboiler]

22 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

I think in base Defense, on run type situations, gap discipline and control will be key.  Even then, off tackle runs can be a weakness in a cover 2 type base.

Gap control... is not really a fundamental of this scheme by design 

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, ztboiler said:

Gap control... is not really a fundamental of this scheme by design 

 

How so? You do realize our defensive scheme has changed radically from the previous  3 - 4 defense, yes?

 

Gap responsibility and control is fundamental to our proactive, one gap, 4 - 3 base defense.  There are eight total gaps, four on each side of the center. In our new 4-3 defense, we will have four defensive linemen and three linebackers. These seven players are each responsible for filling a single gap during the play, whether an under front, or over. Here's a typical gap assignment for a base setup 4 - 3 pic-

 

 

It is paramount our defense to find their run fits and penetrate and control their assigned gap before they can 'fly' to the football.  I feel it still exposes our outside perimeter defense, so good run reads and tackling from the CB's and safeties is key.

 

Yes I know there will be (most?) times we will be in sub package (4 -2-5,  4-1-6, 3-2-6, etc) and even times when our 1 tech might have two gap responsibility, etc.  Because good D coordinators morph systems that work into their own.  But with a faster, but lighter front, gap discipline, penetration, and control is crucial.

 

Under and over alignments-

 

 

[ztboiler]

15 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

It is paramount our defense to find their run fits and penetrate and control their assigned gap before they can 'fly' to the football.  I feel it still exposes our outside perimeter defense, so good run reads and tackling from the CB's and safeties is key.

I appreciate the primer...good stuff.  However, you are blending concepts that negate each other, as bolded above.  Gap assignment and gap control are very different.  DC's want to either penetrate or control.  You can't do both on the same play...and our new scheme which is the old scheme has been clearly revived (as stated by both players and coach interviews) to disrupt not control with the front 4.

[ColtsBlueFL]

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2012/12/19/3783300/seahawks-run-defense-gap-control-assignment-discipline

 

[ztboiler]

2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2012/12/19/3783300/seahawks-run-defense-gap-control-assignment-discipline

 

Good article...have read it multiple times over the years.  Excellent explanation...of a different defense.

[ColtsBlueFL]

18 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

Good article...have read it multiple times over the years.  Excellent explanation...of a different defense.

 

I / We do not know what defense Ebeflus will roll out, until week 1 is played out.    Some here have speculated that Dodds presence in the F.O. will influence our scheme more toward what Seattle had, and others suggested our personnel just might be better suited to a 4-3 Cover 3 rather than ols school Tampa 2.    And I bet both Seattle and Indy will be in a 4 -2 -5 (of some type) more than 60% of the time because of the predominance of passing. But I believe in run situations their front 7 lineup and ours wont really be all that much different.

 

But you can explain in full detail to the others here why it doesn't apply and what you feel the differences are/will be. Both in the box and in the secondary.

[ztboiler]

10 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

I / We do not know what defense Ebeflus will roll out, until week 1 is played out.    Some here have speculated that Dodds presence in the F.O. will influence our scheme more toward what Seattle had, and others suggested our personnel just might be better suited to a 4-3 Cover 3 rather than ols school Tampa 2.    And I bet both Seattle and Indy will be in a 4 -2 -5 (of some type) more than 60% of the time because of the predominance of passing. But I believe in run situations their front 7 lineup and ours wont really be all that much different.

 

But you can explain in full detail to the others here why it doesn't apply and what you feel the differences are/will be. Both in the box and in the secondary.

We are featuring a 270# man at UT....base and nickel.  His backup is 270# rookie. There can be no doubt about the scheme we are employing.  It is not the Seahawks of 2012.  The Seahawks of today aren’t even the Seahawks scheme of 2012 with Red Bryant...

[ColtsBlitz]

On 8/16/2018 at 2:56 PM, Superman said:

 

Ridgeway looked good at 3 tech. 

He was unstoppable for awhile. He may be bigger, but he sure looked quick. Made some great finesse moves to get inside and around blockers

[Dark Superman]

Nothing I've seen so far has me looking forward to or confident in our front seven or CB's.

 

It's gonna feel like the Colts of old when teams would run/pass the ball down our throats at will.

[Lawrence Owen]

I am not as worried about our Run defense as many of you are.  Am i worried? slightly.  But this is mainly because of our unknown players.  Not because of scheme or player size.  A smaller, lighter defender can get pushed around if they are not elusive. But that is the reason for being a smaller faster d-lineman isn't it? To get penetration and be disruptive?  

Most teams during the Dungy days ran so well against us because they had a plan,...the entire NFL knew our weakness because the Pats had taken advantage of it multiple times.  That was our DE's.

Mathis and Freeney were terror's in the passing game, but when it came to the run game, teams would do a LOT of delayed off-tackle runs. (Especially towards Freeney)  They would wait for Freeney to show speed rush or spin inside and hand the ball off and the DE would run himself out of the play.  They few times they did this, and it didn't work, is those rare moment our DE's used their speed-to-power bull rush.

I'm not saying our d-line will be any different, (especially since they are being coached by Mathis) But they may be.  I'm just going to take the 'wait and see' approach.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Lawrence Owen said:

I am not as worried about our Run defense as many of you are.  Am i worried? slightly.  But this is mainly because of our unknown players.  Not because of scheme or player size.  A smaller, lighter defender can get pushed around if they are not elusive. But that is the reason for being a smaller faster d-lineman isn't it? To get penetration and be disruptive?  

Most teams during the Dungy days ran so well against us because they had a plan,...the entire NFL knew our weakness because the Pats had taken advantage of it multiple times.  That was our DE's.

Mathis and Freeney were terror's in the passing game, but when it came to the run game, teams would do a LOT of delayed off-tackle runs. (Especially towards Freeney)  They would wait for Freeney to show speed rush or spin inside and hand the ball off and the DE would run himself out of the play.  They few times they did this, and it didn't work, is those rare moment our DE's used their speed-to-power bull rush.

I'm not saying our d-line will be any different, (especially since they are being coached by Mathis) But they may be.  I'm just going to take the 'wait and see' approach.

 

Yup. If -- IF -- the DL can get penetration inside, contain on the outside, and tackle well,  the run defense can be fine. It won't be the Steel Curtain, but it won't necessarily be awful either. Size has come to be overrated with regard to run defense. 

 

Those are all big IFs at this point, by the way.

[Lawrence Owen]

8 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Yup. If -- IF -- the DL can get penetration inside, contain on the outside, and tackle well,  the run defense can be fine. It won't be the Steel Curtain, but it won't necessarily be awful either. Size has come to be overrated with regard to run defense. 

 

Those are all big IFs at this point, by the way.

Well, also, it is not ALL on our D-line to stop the run.  Is not our linebackers being speed oriented also supposed to be able to do clean-up work in a hurry, not just cover the RB's and TE's?

And I agree about "IF-IF".  But, you don't know until you see all this come together. So might as well sit back, and enjoy a football game or two before making end-of-the-world predictions about something we really have no idea about,... as of yet.

There are always 'glass half full, glass half empty' people to every situation.  But to say the glass will break under the weight of the water before the glass is even done cooling down from being molded is counterproductive.

[Superman]

5 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Well, also, it is not ALL on our D-line to stop the run.  Is not our linebackers being speed oriented also supposed to be able to do clean-up work in a hurry, not just cover the RB's and TE's?

And I agree about "IF-IF".  But, you don't know until you see all this come together. So might as well sit back, and enjoy a football game or two before making end-of-the-world predictions about something we really have no idea about,... as of yet.

There are always 'glass half full, glass half empty' people to every situation.  But to say the glass will break under the weight of the water before the glass is even done cooling down from being molded is counterproductive.

 

Agreed.

 

When I mentioned tackling, I meant the entire defense, including the linebackers especially. Flying to the ball, getting in position to make stops, and then finishing the play will be critical. This defense has lacked speed for several years, and that has made the tackling even worse (if you get there late, you're in bad position to make the tackle). 

 

We'll see how the defense comes along. I'm not overly impressed by the personnel, but I do think they'll be fast, and that's important to me. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed.

 

When I mentioned tackling, I meant the entire defense, including the linebackers especially. Flying to the ball, getting in position to make stops, and then finishing the play will be critical. This defense has lacked speed for several years, and that has made the tackling even worse (if you get there late, you're in bad position to make the tackle). 

 

Exactly. 

 

3 hours ago, Superman said:

We'll see how the defense comes along. I'm not overly impressed by the personnel, but I do think they'll be fast, and that's important to me. 

 

Yup, that’s called reducing the field. But our smaller guys need to lower by knee bend with head up, not bend at the waist that reduces power and invites a penalty.  I feel Eberflus would be wise to install just enough of the D playbook to handle situations, but not so much thse young players have to think instead of just play when the play call is made. And take some of that I’ve not used for install to practice open field tackling.  That’s just my opinion.