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im specifically looking at 2008 and 2011 because of Hoyer and Cassell

I think its different because the Colts defense is built to win with a lead. We had a real good defense in 2005 I think we could have won a lot more than 2 games but depends who was at quarterback.

Ok, I am done. Good Luck to you,LOL

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Ok, I am done. Good Luck to you,LOL

No I actually agree with you, I think if we had for example the '05 defense, we would have won more than 2 games. There were some close ones like the Steelers, Bucs, and Panthers and probably others I can't think off the top of my head.

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How is giving up a whopping 2 more points less per game "a lot better"? You also fail to realize 2008 and 2011 are two entirely different scenarios. This year we had multiple 5k yard passing QBs, offenses putting up historic numbers. In 2008 there was none of that because of the new rules protecting the QB and helmet to helmet hits specificially over the middle. Hence why even though they gave up a whopping 2 more points, they did it in a season where even average QBs looked good.

I'm also guessing you did not watch the games because the D was not 'burned' by any "average" QB whatsoever consistently. The highest amount of yardage was the very first game of the season with Chad Henne. Then the 2nd game with Rivers. After that their pass defense improved weekly and they never allowed another QB over 400 yards for the season. 353 after week 3. In the playoffs they did not allow a passer over 300 yards. You're telling me that is 'burned'? Lol

Also its funny you think that outside of Welker, Gronk and Hernandez the receivers are trash. Well theres another decent receiver named Deion Branch. Also what doesn't make sense here is. . THOSE ARE THE STARTERS. Do you expect pro bowl backups? It's like saying outside of Mario Manningham, Hakeem Nicks, and Victor Cruz the other receivers are trash. . . .well duh because they are backups.

And in a pass first league, tell me how beneficial a running game is. Ask the New York Giants who were ranked DEAD LAST in rushing and won the Super Bowl.

Lastly, at the end of the day. All that matters is how many points you score and how many you give up. You can give up 2k yards but if you hold them to under 10 points or however to win, thats all that matters.

You do not understand that 2011 and 2008 are vastly different.

Again stop looking at PPG which time of possession affects,injuries during game, penalties, bad coaching I could go on it's not the best indicator of a defense look at from a personnel stand point, they had a better defensive squad in 2008 across the board. And holding a qb under 400 yards is suppose to happen the 300 yard mark is what you look at which they gave up to multiple qbs. Vince young put up 400 on them in wk 12 and dan orlovsky put up 353 I just proved you don't know what your talking about. And with gronk and hernadez being tight ends that leaves who outside of welker that's a WIDE RECEIVER to catch passes and branch sucks, he proved that in Seattle without tom he's trash just like old colt's receiver's faded after they left Peyton. And the giants have Eli they don't need a running game again we are talking about HOYER who IS going to need a ground game. And like we saw with the colts D this year if your on the field all the time because you can't stop the opposing offense and your offense can't score giving up all those yards WILL matter. And of course I know those 2 years are are different, you need to get some facts instead of talking out your rear just makes you look stupid.

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No one is saying this is Peytons fault. It's just not fair to blame Irsay for all this. Polian was the one who built the awful team last year and was responsible for building a team that relied heavily on one player. There comes a certain point in which the lack of talent cannot be made up for and at some point Manning cannot continue carrying an awful team. There is a reason he is so great yet only has one super bowl. Our team heading into free agency looks BAD. That coupled with the cap situation makes it not a favorable situation for Manning. He has a much better shot at winning the big one else where.

Irsay clearly wanted to make Manning the highest paid player!!! You mean to tell me he didn't know 2012 would bring cap armageddon, with our without PM? He is clearly at fault

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Again stop looking at PPG which time of possession affects,injuries during game, penalties, bad coaching I could go on it's not the best indicator of a defense look at from a personnel stand point, they had a better defensive squad in 2008 across the board. And holding a qb under 400 yards is suppose to happen the 300 yard mark is what you look at which they gave up to multiple qbs. Vince young put up 400 on them in wk 12 and dan orlovsky put up 353 I just proved you don't know what your talking about. And with gronk and hernadez being tight ends that leaves who outside of welker that's a WIDE RECEIVER to catch passes and branch sucks, he proved that in Seattle without tom he's trash just like old colt's receiver's faded after they left Peyton. And the giants have Eli they don't need a running game again we are talking about HOYER who IS going to need a ground game. And like we saw with the colts D this year if your on the field all the time because you can't stop the opposing offense and your offense can't score giving up all those yards WILL matter. And of course I know those 2 years are are different, you need to get some facts instead of talking out your rear just makes you look stupid.

The personal shots are not necessary. Vince young did not throw for 400 yards, so you lied. And yes Orlovsky put up 353 I said 350 I was wrong. Considering most of it came in garbage time? Deion Branch sucks? Catching 61 balls for 800+ yards sucks? That is very interesting. Nice to know being 100 yards behind Hernandez means you suck.

You completely missed the point. A running game is not as vital as it once was since this is a pass first league now. The Giants won it all with the 32nd ranked rush offense. That is my point. Hoyer would benefit from it being a pass first league and could use the running game for play action. But its not like the Patriots need to be an established run first team to have success under Hoyer. Didn't you say in your own words the O line wasn't very good? How will they run the ball? You are contraciting yourself.

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In the big picture, $28,000,000 is not much compared to what Peyton has done for Indianapolis, and the state of Indiana. How much revenue was drawn in by the recent Super Bowl? I recall Irsay saying something along the lines that he want's Peyton to be the highest paid player in the NFL, not that long ago, where is the loyalty? Where are they getting all of these folks on TV that say "I understand that is all business". Why are they not showing all of our dissapointment in Jim, because of his greed. Peyton wanted to stay, Reggie wanted him to stay! They say he can play anywhere next year,except in Indianapolis, I think he should still retire here, it's not too late. What about PTO days, he never used one until last year, 14 yrs. without missing a snap! Come on!

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Irsay clearly wanted to make Manning the highest paid player!!! You mean to tell me he didn't know 2012 would bring cap armageddon, with our without PM? He is clearly at fault

I'm sure Irsay knew that but I don't think Irsay realized that the other free agents would be wanting some big $$$. I assumed maybe they would try to get a deal done with some of the F/A's before. I think Irsay has some blame but not all. Polian deserves a lot of it too.

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While so many are suggesting Irsay has "lied", or that he should have known this was coming and prevented it...

Has anyone considered the possibility Irsay did what he had to do to allow Manning to continue his rehab, using Colts facilities (before he went down to Duke), Colts trainers, or Colts players?

Has it occurred to anyone that, despite a deadline he might very well have known was coming, Jim did something generous for someone who needed the hand? What if he had cut Manning at the SB? Manning might have been able to negotiate another contract, but with nobody having any sense of where he was with his injury, I would ask how.

Manning had the opportunity to add another 6 weeks of rehab (probably with Colts trainers, definitely with Colts receivers) after the SB, and was able to get a video out with a glimpse at his "rehabbed" arm. Has anybody here posed the possibility that there is no way that could have been possible without Irsay's compliance? Just asking...

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I'm sure Irsay knew that but I don't think Irsay realized that the other free agents would be wanting some big $$$. I assumed maybe they would try to get a deal done with some of the F/A's before. I think Irsay has some blame but not all. Polian deserves a lot of it too.

Thomas Edison was a genious not only because of his own talents, but because he surrounded himself with people smarter than himself. (look up edison quotes)

Jim Irsay should've been smart enough to do that. Don't blame Polian, Irsay obviously can't and couldn't keep his horrible GM skills out of the football decision making process.

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While so many are suggesting Irsay has "lied", or that he should have known this was coming and prevented it...

Has anyone considered the possibility Irsay did what he had to do to allow Manning to continue his rehab, using Colts facilities (before he went down to Duke), Colts trainers, or Colts players?

Has it occurred to anyone that, despite a deadline he might very well have known was coming, Jim did something generous for someone who needed the hand? What if he had cut Manning at the SB? Manning might have been able to negotiate another contract, but with nobody having any sense of where he was with his injury, I would ask how.

Manning had the opportunity to add another 6 weeks of rehab (probably with Colts trainers, definitely with Colts receivers) after the SB, and was able to get a video out with a glimpse at his "rehabbed" arm. Has anybody here posed the possibility that there is no way that could have been possible without Irsay's compliance? Just asking...

There could be something to that, but Manning had plenty of places he could workout. Duke, UT, A former UT teammate owns a franchise of Elite Workout facilities, that I think I read somewhere Manning is a partner in that venture. I think they fired one of the guys Manning preferred working with, so there might be a point to it, but Manning had plenty of places to work out and it is a bit odd he chose to do so at Duke as opposed to 56th street.

Any Colts player can use the facility in the offeseason they just can't be supervised by a coach.

The personal shots are not necessary. Vince young did not throw for 400 yards, so you lied. And yes Orlovsky put up 353 I said 350 I was wrong. Considering most of it came in garbage time? Deion Branch sucks? Catching 61 balls for 800+ yards sucks? That is very interesting. Nice to know being 100 yards behind Hernandez means you suck.

You completely missed the point. A running game is not as vital as it once was since this is a pass first league now. The Giants won it all with the 32nd ranked rush offense. That is my point. Hoyer would benefit from it being a pass first league and could use the running game for play action. But its not like the Patriots need to be an established run first team to have success under Hoyer. Didn't you say in your own words the O line wasn't very good? How will they run the ball? You are contraciting yourself.

Not following the conversation but Young did put up 400 on New England.

http://www.pro-footb...01111270phi.htm

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While so many are suggesting Irsay has "lied", or that he should have known this was coming and prevented it... Has anyone considered the possibility Irsay did what he had to do to allow Manning to continue his rehab, using Colts facilities (before he went down to Duke), Colts trainers, or Colts players? Has it occurred to anyone that, despite a deadline he might very well have known was coming, Jim did something generous for someone who needed the hand? What if he had cut Manning at the SB? Manning might have been able to negotiate another contract, but with nobody having any sense of where he was with his injury, I would ask how. Manning had the opportunity to add another 6 weeks of rehab (probably with Colts trainers, definitely with Colts receivers) after the SB, and was able to get a video out with a glimpse at his "rehabbed" arm. Has anybody here posed the possibility that there is no way that could have been possible without Irsay's compliance? Just asking...
Do you really think Peyton could not afford his own rehab???
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The personal shots are not necessary. Vince young did not throw for 400 yards, so you lied. And yes Orlovsky put up 353 I said 350 I was wrong. Considering most of it came in garbage time? Deion Branch sucks? Catching 61 balls for 800+ yards sucks? That is very interesting. Nice to know being 100 yards behind Hernandez means you suck.

You completely missed the point. A running game is not as vital as it once was since this is a pass first league now. The Giants won it all with the 32nd ranked rush offense. That is my point. Hoyer would benefit from it being a pass first league and could use the running game for play action. But its not like the Patriots need to be an established run first team to have success under Hoyer. Didn't you say in your own words the O line wasn't very good? How will they run the ball? You are contraciting yourself.

I quote " I know THOSE 2 years are different" go here for proof of my "lie" http://www.nfl.com/t...chedule?team=NE and catching 61 passes because your team can't run and passes all the time is not that great when you get open because the defense is focused on 3 other guys and wide receivers are suppose to have more yardage than tight ends that why welker had more yardage than the tight ends because he actually is good. Why do you assume Hoyer will be just as good as Brady coming off the bench, I've seen Hoyer play (pre-season) but he doesn't stike fear in opposing DC's and I said and again I quote "he is going to need a ground game" didn't say he was going to get it.

Edited by Maureen
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There could be something to that, but Manning had plenty of places he could workout. Duke, UT, A former UT teammate owns a franchise of Elite Workout facilities, that I think I read somewhere Manning is a partner in that venture. I think they fired one of the guys Manning preferred working with, so there might be a point to it, but Manning had plenty of places to work out and it is a bit odd he chose to do so at Duke as opposed to 56th street.

Any Colts player can use the facility in the offeseason they just can't be supervised by a coach.

Not following the conversation but Young did put up 400 on New England.

http://www.pro-footb...01111270phi.htm

this is odd because im looking at the same thing except for season stats

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2011.htm

and it says 393

maybe it takes sacks into account?

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this is odd because im looking at the same thing except for season stats

http://www.pro-footb...ms/nwe/2011.htm

and it says 393

maybe it takes sacks into account?

I see the discrepancy.

Your link is team totals which does account for the 7 yards.

For whatever reason the NFL doesn't count sacks against the Quarterbacks passing yards, only in team totals.

Brady threw for 361, and had a sack for 8 yards, which again matches up with the net totals on your link.

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Do you really think Peyton could not afford his own rehab???

Of course I do, but he is also a creature of habit, and prefers to have his guys around him. Don't forget how upset he was that he didn't have access to his guys during the lockout.

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Well, thank you Mr Irsay for completely destroying your football franchise in a final display of insanity that tore down what shreds of respect, loyalty and even continuity I thought that the Colts organization had left. Yes, let's kick loose the player that more than anyone else has carried this football franchise to success, and has in many ways brought new vigor to the franchises home Indianapolis. Yes, let's tell that man to leave so that we can completely rebuild of the basis of luck - not Luck, I mean luck. No one knows whether this rookie QB will have the beans for the NFL, there is no continuity on the team at all. The Offense and Defense are being rebuilt from the ground up, the coaching staff is completely different, and I've never heard of one of the fron office or coachins staff before. So now we have a team of unknowns with unknown players and an unknown quantity at QB. Yay us, we are the new Detroit Lions. I'll remember the sheer insanity of this time when in 30 years the Colts will *still* be introduced as the "Rebuilding since 2012 Indianapolis Colts".

To be honest though I am completely disgusted with the franchise and much of the fan base that has no problem tossing aside Peyton manning. after what that single player has meant to the city and franchise. There are a lot of people that ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves right now, but are not. The Colts organization is first and foremost among that, I have no respect for you at all now. I do not understand your thinking or decision making at all.

For years now people have seen a sea of blue at home games, number 18 jerseys outnumbering everything else by a wide margin. But in a single stroke that era is gone. No more #18, no more #63, no more #44, no #86, no #93, for that matter no #88 or #21. What's left? Just a horseshoe. I guess someone really does believe that horseshoes are lucky. I don't believe in luck, nor for that matter do I believe in Luck. I do believe in respect, loyalty and some semblence of continuity, here we have none.

One final thought, how many football franchises have successfully rebuilt themselves after removing every fan favorite player from the roster along with the recognized names in the front office and coaching staff? Yeah, not many huh? Forget the performance on the field for a moment, we're're talking about players that are great fan favorites, and in the case of Peyton Manning, we're talking about a player that in many ways is *the* fan favorite. Now the team has nothing. Scorched earth.

I don't know how to describe how I feel; angry, disappointed, confused, worried, these are all words that might cover some of it. But I think I mostly feel completely let down by the franchise that I chose to love.

I don't know what the future holds for the Colts, and sadly, I don't really care right now. It's not about being a fan of Peyton, it's about the franchise and the way that franchise behaves and deals with things. Peyton talked yesterday about doing things the right way. At least *someone* knows how to do that. It seems that the folks in charge of the Colts forgot how to do that sometime during the last 8 months.

Can I continue being a Colts Fan? I don't know. right now, they are not the team I thought they were, and that is a huge disappointment.

:sigh:

All I can say right now is that this deserved a quote and a +1. I cannot even put my own feelings into words right now...at least any that will make it through the censor.

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I quote " I know THOSE 2 years are different" basic english helps as well and go here for proof of my "lie" http://www.nfl.com/t...chedule?team=NE and catching 61 passes because your team can't run and passes all the time is not that great when you get open because the defense is focused on 3 other guys and wide receivers are suppose to have more yardage than tight ends that why welker had more yardage than the tight ends because he actually is good. Why do you assume Hoyer will be just as good as Brady coming off the bench, I've seen Hoyer play (pre-season) but he doesn't stike fear in opposing DC's and I said and again I quote "he is going to need a ground game" didn't say he was going to get it. Basic reading skills would also help like I said you can't fix stupid and I'm done

Its funny because I never once ever in my previous post said Hoyer will be as good as Brady. I simply said we cannot conclude that Hoyer would 'suck' because we don't know how he would play. Its like 2008 when Cassel came in. How many people honestly thought Cassel would go 11-5? I did not. Its not fair to make assumptions like that. Hoyer could very well flat out suck but theres nothing to point to to definitely say that. Also I was looking at the Pats defense for that game to get to the 393 number http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2011.htm but I've been informed I'm wrong. But then again throwing 400 yards in a blow out isn't great.

Also just because a tight end has more yards than a receiver does not mean that receiver sucks. There are some pretty darn good tight ends out there. He is going to have a ground game obviously but not a great one. The Patriots are not terrible at rushing but they run the ball enough. 110 yards a game is not bad.

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In the big picture, $28,000,000 is not much compared to what Peyton has done for Indianapolis, and the state of Indiana. How much revenue was drawn in by the recent Super Bowl? I recall Irsay saying something along the lines that he want's Peyton to be the highest paid player in the NFL, not that long ago, where is the loyalty? Where are they getting all of these folks on TV that say "I understand that is all business". Why are they not showing all of our dissapointment in Jim, because of his greed. Peyton wanted to stay, Reggie wanted him to stay! They say he can play anywhere next year,except in Indianapolis, I think he should still retire here, it's not too late. What about PTO days, he never used one until last year, 14 yrs. without missing a snap! Come on!

Our disappointment is inconvenient and so it is not shown. I believe it is called shaping the discussion.

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I see the discrepancy.

Your link is team totals which does account for the 7 yards.

For whatever reason the NFL doesn't count sacks against the Quarterbacks passing yards, only in team totals.

Brady threw for 361, and had a sack for 8 yards, which again matches up with the net totals on your link.

Yes you're right I saw that

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Hate is a very strong word to use towards someone that had the toughest decision he's ever faced. I would bet Irsay hasn't had a good nights sleep since December. This was equivalent to firing ones own son. What if he decided to keep Peyton, trade the pick and next season Peyton sucks or gets put out for good. Now how are you gonna feel when we are stuck with a crappy backup again? Irsay was in a no win situation with the fans no matter what choice he made. Put yourself in his shoes and ponder that for awhile and then come back and tell us if your still going to hate Irsay for his decision. If your a Manning fan than just go follow him where ever his road leads. But if your a true COLTS fan read my signature and live by that!!

Who's to say Irsay has feelings like us, I heard "like father like son", "it's all business", not: treating others the way you want to be treated, I heard that somewhere.

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+1, actually

+ 4 from my household

Yes, I tried explaining this to my son today. Peyton is his hero. He saw Peyton cry on TV. Out of the words of a kid, "How could Mr. Irsay just throw him away like that? What about respect, Mom? You told me that the Colts are all about respect." Then he storms off in tears.

I was embarrassed to call myself a Colts fan at that point. Truly embarrassed. This is NOT the organization I thought I loved.

People want to talk about loyalty and that "real" fans will support their team. Yeah, well loyalty is a 2-way street.

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Yes, I tried explaining this to my son today. Peyton is his hero. He saw Peyton cry on TV. Out of the words of a kid, "How could Mr. Irsay just throw him away like that? What about respect, Mom? You told me that the Colts are all about respect." Then he storms off in tears.

I was embarrassed to call myself a Colts fan at that point. Truly embarrassed. This is NOT the organization I thought I loved.

People want to talk about loyalty and that "real" fans will support their team. Yeah, well loyalty is a 2-way street.

to many regulars on here, they say, "it's a business". - excactly loyalty is a 2 way street

Jim Irsay didn't talk about Peyton's inability to play football again. where was his, "Colts physicians haven't cleared Peyton yet." quotes.

He made up his mind months ago when the colts locked the #1 pick, this was all a farce. peyton tried his best to show us he wanted to be a Colt.

irsay lied, he said he wanted peyton back if peyton wanted to be. Then I hear on sportscenter that he flew down to florida to tell peyton that its time to end it. Why is this guy making roster decisions? It was his fault in the first place for wanting to pay peyton all that $$

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I agree with the OP that if this was Irsay's original intention maybe he should have let it be known sooner instead of all the drama that followed for the months afterwards. However there is a chance that he wasn't completely sure, although I am betting he knew atleast since the end of the season and the firing of the Polians.

But I am not "upset with Irsay" and I certainly don't think he is his father. Jim seems to genuinely care about the success of his franchise and instead of making a short term decision, he made a long term one. Heck, his father would have kept Peyton because that is what sells tickets and keeps the fans happy. I commend Jim in having the guts to do this and wanting to have build a team that will be successful for years to come. This decision was obviously a very difficult one and not very popular. He did not like the way the direction this franchise was headed and finally took a stand. As far as being the Detroit Lions, under Irsay's ownership this team has not been anything like the Lions. When this team drafts 5 WRs in the first round and makes no strides to better themselves than we can make this claim. However I seriously doubt Irsay would allow this franchise to fall that low for that long.

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Jim Irsay didn't talk about Peyton's inability to play football again. where was his, "Colts physicians haven't cleared Peyton yet." quotes.

In a joint press conference with PM, Irsay could not say that he questioned PM's ability to throw at an NFL level and damage PM's chances with another team.

Even if there is disagreement between Irsay and PM about retirement now, they could not flesh that out in the press conference. They needed to show a united front, so that both parties may move on as unscathed as possible, under the circumstances.

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In a joint press conference with PM, Irsay could not say that he questioned PM's ability to throw at an NFL level and damage PM's chances with another team.

Even if there is disagreement between Irsay and PM about retirement now, they could not flesh that out in the press conference. They needed to show a united front, so that both parties may move on as unscathed as possible, under the circumstances.

Point is, nobody is questioning if he's going to play in 2012 - please show the analyst or link that still does?

Circumstances were all created by our owner's bad business decisions and inability to control his ego, this guy is dangerous and he just cut the only player who masked his inability to lead

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I agree with the OP that if this was Irsay's original intention maybe he should have let it be known sooner instead of all the drama that followed for the months afterwards. However there is a chance that he wasn't completely sure, although I am betting he knew atleast since the end of the season and the firing of the Polians.

But I am not "upset with Irsay" and I certainly don't think he is his father. Jim seems to genuinely care about the success of his franchise and instead of making a short term decision, he made a long term one. Heck, his father would have kept Peyton because that is what sells tickets and keeps the fans happy. I commend Jim in having the guts to do this and wanting to have build a team that will be successful for years to come. This decision was obviously a very difficult one and not very popular. He did not like the way the direction this franchise was headed and finally took a stand. As far as being the Detroit Lions, under Irsay's ownership this team has not been anything like the Lions. When this team drafts 5 WRs in the first round and makes no strides to better themselves than we can make this claim. However I seriously doubt Irsay would allow this franchise to fall that low for that long.

Irsay couldn't even prepare a proper speech for Peyton today, he winged it like a bumbling *. while peyton sounded prepared as usual.

irsay didn't even give him the fairwell he deserved, umm, uhh, duh, blah, umm. How can you not have a written statement ready? again, he's not a prepared type of guy.

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In a joint press conference with PM, Irsay could not say that he questioned PM's ability to throw at an NFL level and damage PM's chances with another team.

Even if there is disagreement between Irsay and PM about retirement now, they could not flesh that out in the press conference. They needed to show a united front, so that both parties may move on as unscathed as possible, under the circumstances.

what, is the kindergarden stuff. Peyton saved Irsays butt. He had no reason to say what he did. Stop bad mouthing Peyton for a few weeks at least. Please

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Point is, nobody is questioning if he's going to play in 2012 - please show the analyst or link that still does?

Circumstances were all created by our owner's bad business decisions and inability to control his ego, this guy is dangerous and he just cut the only player who masked his inability to lead

From Ashley Fox, http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7654150/indianapolis-colts-owner-jim-irsay-better-hope-made-right-call-peyton-manning

"And what of Manning? Can he throw? Can he get his arm strength back? Which team will sign him, and will it give Manning the control he craves? Will there be the pieces in place to win in 2012?"

I highly doubt that PM's injury and resultant neck surgeries were caused by Irsay's bad business decisions.

I highly doubt that PM's nerve regeneration issues were caused by Irsay's bad business decisions.

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Yeah I dont believe the new direction or more balanced team thing he was spitting either. If that were really the case we wouldnt be drafting Luck but trading down and getting more players for the team.

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From Ashley Fox, http://espn.go.com/n...-peyton-manning

"And what of Manning? Can he throw? Can he get his arm strength back? Which team will sign him, and will it give Manning the control he craves? Will there be the pieces in place to win in 2012?"

I highly doubt that PM's injury and resultant neck surgeries were caused by Irsay's bad business decisions.

I highly doubt that PM's nerve regeneration issues were caused by Irsay's bad business decisions.

but he wasn't released because of that, he was released due to "cap issues" , cap issues we would have with a healthy PM.

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