Defjamz26

Lack of depth: It might take Ballard several years to right the ship

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I wanted to say I agree you can’t really compare 2012 to this year.  When Grigson got here the cupboard wasn’t bare.  They had maybe four Hall of Famers in AV, Wayne, Freeney, and Mathis.  He also had solid starters in Bethea, Castonzo, and McAfee.  He also had what was viewed as the next great QB staring him in the face.

 

Ballard had Luck, Hilton, Kelly, Doyle, Castonzo, Geathers and AV still but that was about it in terms of hold overs who were here when Grigson was here and that’s about it heading into this season He’s having to tear this thing all the way down and starting over.  That’s major difference in terms of talent.

 

Also there was the whole Chuckstrong thing in 2012.  That really motivated that team in away that can’t be measured.  

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2 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

I wanted to say I agree you can’t really compare 2012 to this year.  When Grigson got here the cupboard wasn’t bare.  They had maybe four Hall of Famers in AV, Wayne, Freeney, and Mathis.  He also had solid starters in Bethea, Castonzo, and McAfee.  He also had what was viewed as the next great QB staring him in the face.

 

Ballard had Luck, Hilton, Kelly, Doyle, Castonzo, Geathers and AV still but that was about it in terms of hold overs who were here when Grigson was here and that’s about it heading into this season He’s having to tear this thing all the way down and starting over.  That’s major difference in terms of talent.

 

Also there was the whole Chuckstrong thing in 2012.  That really motivated that team in away that can’t be measured.  

BA mattered that year as well.

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With Ballard ignoring FA, and not taking advantage of cap room, he sure did put a lot of pressure on himself to draft extremely well. Seeing how both Wilson and Basham have struggled so far, I would not assume Ballard is good at drafting. 

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4 minutes ago, Pacergeek said:

With Ballard ignoring FA, and not taking advantage of cap room, he sure did put a lot of pressure on himself to draft extremely well. Seeing how both Wilson and Basham have struggled so far, I would not assume Ballard is good at drafting. 

I may be wrong but I have a feeling he hits Free Agency hard in 2019. He still has huge Cap room and his plan IMO is letting the process play out this season with the new Coaching staff.

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The good thing about our rebuild is that it will coincide with Brady, Big Ben, and Rivers retiring. This will open up the AFC so much. If Ballard rights the ship like we all hope, we should be contenders in a couple years. 

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I start counting this year.  Luck will win games by himself this year but in 2 years I expect to see others winning games for us as well.  Ala freeney making a 3rd down sack to keep a team out of field goal range or a Bob Sanders interception, etc.

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25 minutes ago, The Peytonator said:

The good thing about our rebuild is that it will coincide with Brady, Big Ben, and Rivers retiring. This will open up the AFC so much. If Ballard rights the ship like we all hope, we should be contenders in a couple years. 

 

Or to play Beelzebub’s lawyer, it could coincide with Rosen, Allen and Mayfield hitting the start of their prime.  Unlikely true but you can’t count on other QBs not emerging to fill the void. 

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6 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Or to play Beelzebub’s lawyer, it could coincide with Rosen, Allen and Mayfield hitting the start of their prime.  Unlikely true but you can’t count on other QBs not emerging to fill the void. 

 

Guessing you meant Darnold and not Rosen, but I agree. Other than Allen that is. Mayfield might just drag the Browns into relevance, I only wish Joe Thomas would have stuck around to be a part of it. There will be QBs to fill the void, but hopefully it’s Luck that is the dominant face and not Mayfield or Carr. 

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6 minutes ago, The Peytonator said:

 

Guessing you meant Darnold and not Rosen, but I agree. Other than Allen that is. Mayfield might just drag the Browns into relevance, I only wish Joe Thomas would have stuck around to be a part of it. There will be QBs to fill the void, but hopefully it’s Luck that is the dominant face and not Mayfield or Carr. 

 

Yeah sorry, brain fart on my part! 

 

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46 minutes ago, Pacergeek said:

With Ballard ignoring FA, and not taking advantage of cap room, he sure did put a lot of pressure on himself to draft extremely well. Seeing how both Wilson and Basham have struggled so far, I would not assume Ballard is good at drafting. 

Don't forget Banner was a complete whiff as well.  Ballard's FA strategy is something to keep an eye on though. Reports were out there that we tried to sign Zeitler two years ago and Norwell this year.  Both wound up elsewhere.  We have had a good number of FA's visiting but they leave.  Why?  I have a feeling Ballard has a number in mind with very little flexibility.   It's his way or the highway.  I could be wrong but that's how I see it.  For example Breeland is still out there after two visits.  I am all about building through the draft but continuing to lose out on young FA's that we are definitely interested in and pursue has me a little concerned.  You know he knows what these players are looking  for when we bring them in.  It's not like he's being surprised every time.   It might not be a good idea to put all your eggs and effort into primarily one basket.  For the most part that is what he's doing.  But this is only his second year so we shall see.  But a pattern seems to be emerging. 

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40 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Don't forget Banner was a complete whiff as well.  Ballard's FA strategy is something to keep an eye on though. Reports were out there that we tried to sign Zeitler two years ago and Norwell this year.  Both wound up elsewhere.  We have had a good number of FA's visiting but they leave.  Why?  I have a feeling Ballard has a number in mind with very little flexibility.   It's his way or the highway.  I could be wrong but that's how I see it.  For example Breeland is still out there after two visits.  I am all about building through the draft but continuing to lose out on young FA's that we are definitely interested in and pursue has me a little concerned.  You know he knows what these players are looking  for when we bring them in.  It's not like he's being surprised every time.   It might not be a good idea to put all your eggs and effort into primarily one basket.  For the most part that is what he's doing.  But this is only his second year so we shall see.  But a pattern seems to be emerging. 

 

What you see as an issue I see as discipline that has and will serve him well.

 

I believe his plan is to get more involved in free agency to supplement the roster once they've stacked a couple two or 3 three drafts.

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7 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

What you see as an issue I see as discipline that has and will serve him well.

 

I believe his plan is to get more involved in free agency to supplement the roster once they've stacked a couple two or 3 three drafts.

I agree.  I believe his  thought, in regards to FA, is to patch "small holes" rather than plug large gaps.  FA will be used to get a key player, not the best on the market just because we have cap space.

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23 minutes ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

I agree.  I believe his  thought, in regards to FA, is to patch "small holes" rather than plug large gaps.  FA will be used to get a key player, not the best on the market just because we have cap space.

I think Ballard brought in Zeitler and Norwell because he saw them as filling a need not because they were just the best players on the market.  They both could have been key players on our line.  And we had the cap space.  He stuck to his guns on the money though.  Ballard's plan has a chance to work if he can stack 2 or 3 draft classes.  That's hard to do and the jury is still out.  Let's hope he hits on his current classes.  We are all counting on it. 

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Rebuilding would happen faster if our second and third round picks from last year would contribute well.

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6 hours ago, #12. said:

A potential turnaround was made longer by the fact we were turned down by seemingly every free agent we pursued(and a coach).  After the fact, Ballard tried to spin it as a conscious decision to focus only on the draft, but that wasn't the case.  Free agents simply chose other destinations.

I don't think Ballard tried to spin it he said point blank he's not paying tier 1 money to a tier 2 player.  He can't help it if player perfer more money than to play with the Colts

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I honestly think we can compete this year. Remember, we lead in the 4th in like 9+ games last year. I really think we would’ve been back to 11 wins with Luck had he played last year. Now take that team, fix the line, add some decent depth all around, upgrade the coaches and scheme, and I think we can really make some noise immediately.

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47 minutes ago, Luck 4 president said:

I honestly think we can compete this year. Remember, we lead in the 4th in like 9+ games last year. I really think we would’ve been back to 11 wins with Luck had he played last year. Now take that team, fix the line, add some decent depth all around, upgrade the coaches and scheme, and I think we can really make some noise immediately.

I definitely think we can go 9-7.

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IMO, it started last off season. It’s a 4 year plan not a three year. We are now in year 2.  Malik Hooker was drafted by Ballard last offseason and he envisions him as a key foundational defensive piece for years to come. So it started right there for me. This isn’t a three year plan...I don’t care how Irsay and Ballard are trying to frame it.  

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7 hours ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

I was confused about when the "3 year plan" technically started because it was brought up last season, but I thought they reiterated that this is year 1. I thought I saw a quote from Irsay or Ballard recently but I can't find it. This tweet can be taken different ways I think. *Holder added that he thought Irsay meant 2017 as year 1, but I swear I remember seeing something where Ballard/Irsay said year 1 is starting with Reich.
 

 

I found this too:

 

 

https://fox59.com/2018/03/26/colts-jim-irsay-indicators-are-andrew-luck-has-turned-the-corner-in-rehab/

Agree .... I look at last year as a "red shirt" year for CB.  I also think people are making way too much out of one pre-season game.  We were in almost every game last year with the exception of getting our butts handed to us by a few really good teams, otherwise we lacked finishing games, but had the opportunity to win them (even with bad coaching). 

 

I have a hard time believing that we went backward this year .. doesn't add up.  Sucks about losing a promising rookie receiver, but someone needs to step up, like someone drafted in front of him .... lets give these guys an opportunity to show us that they have in fact improved and we have a good core of young men in the locker room to build from

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Just don't forget how Chip Kelly striped the Eagles when he came in and they had a quick turn around, so anything is possible. Just have to believe 

 

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There is some value, purely in managing fan’s expectations, in discussing the start date of a 3 year plan....that’s part of the business.  

 

Effectively, however, there can be no doubt that the plan began in 2017.  Hooker fits any scheme and fell into Ballard’s lap as the foundational piece he needs in the 3rd level of the defense.  Basham and Wilson project well in the new scheme regardless of how they pan out and were absolutely drafted with this scheme in mind.

 

Sheard, Simon and Hankins were given 3 year deals with team friendly terms.  All three played well last year and translate well well to the new scheme.  I’d argue that Hankins wasn’t retained for reasons other than scheme fit as stated.

 

Our projected starting MLB was a fourth round pick in 2017. Our projected starting RB was a 4th round pick in 2017.  Our projected starting NB was a fifth round pick in 2017.  Start the clock whenever you want but there is a lot of talent from 2017 given a clear path to develop in a way that looks a lot like part of any plan...

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This year isnt the year for us to make a run...... too many rookies...... too many new folks, learning to play together....and now, the injury bug is making a start......... 

The team will win 7-9 games at MAX

 

I do think this team will be much more fun to watch this year, than last

 

I hope they look to some depth players from final cuts, to bolster this roster

 

I dont like the current depth behind previously (currently) injured defensive players

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I completely agree. You would have to hit 95% of your Free Agent signings and draft picks to turn a team around in 2-3 years. He basically started this team over from scratch, but hopefully in another two years we have a team that can compete and win it all.

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Offensively, I feel like we can compete and score enough points to win a lot of games. (IF healthy) but our defense is going to have a long season and will indeed give up a ton of points IMO.

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10 hours ago, horseshoecrabs said:

Just don't forget how Chip Kelly striped the Eagles when he came in and they had a quick turn around, so anything is possible. Just have to believe 

 

i concur

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Eeekk. I hope we're mostly competitive within the 3 year plan more so than the 5-7 year plan. After about 3 drafts and with a nice supplement of FA players we can get far into the playoffs and possibly take a Lombardi home. I can see it, we just HAVE to get better each year and continue to grow. This team can't sit back and mosey through each year knowing that they aren't there yet when they absolutely can be.

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14 hours ago, Luck 4 president said:

I honestly think we can compete this year. Remember, we lead in the 4th in like 9+ games last year. I really think we would’ve been back to 11 wins with Luck had he played last year. Now take that team, fix the line, add some decent depth all around, upgrade the coaches and scheme, and I think we can really make some noise immediately.

i concur

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This is year 2 of that “3 Year Plan”. Some of you are freaking out because the vanilla offense and defense we put on the field last week. This roster isn’t as bad as some of you think. Health is the only issue I see with our team. We’re starting to accumulate depth. Remember the plan was starting inside to outside piece. The defensive and offensive lines have depth. It’s up to the coaching staff to bring out the potential in players. 

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20 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

First off...   why should ANYTHING be apparent one game into the preseason?

 

Second... Ballard has a 3-year plan, so why us yours now 4-5?

 

Third:   Define fixed?   Making the playoffs?   Advancing to the playoffs?   Reaching the SB?   What?   Fixed means different things to different people.

 

I’d be reluctant to connect dots yet. 

 

1. I’m not saying that the first pre-season game just magically revealed team weaknesses that no one knew. It’s basically what we guessed. It just made things more apparent because for the last few months it’s been all talk, mock drafts and tape watching, projections, TC, and reminiscing about the previous season. The pre-season game was close to the “real” thing in a way. We got to see the culmination of everything that has transpired since January.

 

2. I kind of throw out the first year because he didn’t have Luck. Plus I just feel that with certain young players not showing signs of growing and earning second contracts, it adds an additional year.

 

3. Fixed for me would be a roster similar to what the Vikings have. Not in terms of scheme or pro-bowlers, but having a solid young core or nucleus of talented players who can stay and grow into seasoned vets that make the Colts a perennial post season contender.

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19 hours ago, Pacergeek said:

With Ballard ignoring FA, and not taking advantage of cap room, he sure did put a lot of pressure on himself to draft extremely well. Seeing how both Wilson and Basham have struggled so far, I would not assume Ballard is good at drafting. 

 

Yep...I am fine with people giving him the benefit of the doubt...but it's far from a sure thing. 

 

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2 hours ago, Savage21 said:

Offensively, I feel like we can compete and score enough points to win a lot of games. (IF healthy) but our defense is going to have a long season and will indeed give up a ton of points IMO.

I'm not sure I agree that we will give up a ton of points. Will we struggle at times? Yes. But this defensive scheme is built on speed and a bend don't break approach. I think we will give up a lot of yardage at times, but this defense will limit big scoring plays with the scheme, and closing speed. I also think we might see a better turnover margin, which will extend offensive possessions and speed the game up for us, which should help defensive scoring. It comes down to how well we defend the red zone, because teams are going to get there plenty against this unit, especially early on. 

 

They are obviously young, but I saw traits against Seattle that I am high on. They will get better over the course of the year. 

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I don't see this "three-year plan" actually taking as long many think. It's a simple but effective rule...under promise and over deliver. 

 

Besides, with Luck now looking like he will in fact be the QB for foreseeable future, it won't even take that long. Even moreso with having a ton of cap space and NINE 1st/2nd round picks over the course of three drafts. If Ballard is only half as good of a drafter as people say, that's a few legit starters added to the team. If he is actually good...that's it almost 1/3 of a talented starting roster add via a few drafts.

 

This is the NFL...teams go from bad to good very quickly when things click. I expect the Colts to be poised to make a run next season. But this season is about development and establishing the culture/schemes. 

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On 8/12/2018 at 12:50 PM, crazycolt1 said:

Kind of funny the last coaching staff was suppose to field winners with the players you have listed. IMO the coaches didn't have the players to make all those game winning adjustments that they were accused of not making.  Now we are expected to be patent with the present coaching staff till the players are drafted to have a team that wins.

 

Just curious... Why do you like cans of worms? 

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2 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

Just curious... Why do you like cans of worms? 

It's not a can of worms at all.

Is there anything in my comment that is wrong?  Pagano and the coaching staff are still being bashed but yet what I said seems to be overlooked or ignored.

Do I think Pagano should have been fired? Yes, it was time but the Colts problems were not of his making and this years roster shows that.

 

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1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

It's not a can of worms at all.

Is there anything in my comment that is wrong?  Pagano and the coaching staff are still being bashed but yet what I said seems to be overlooked or ignored.

Do I think Pagano should have been fired? Yes, it was time but the Colts problems were not of his making and this years roster shows that.

 

 

I don’t think there is a lot of bashing going on. I didn’t like Pagano any better than I liked Caldwell in the end. Everything is always super exciting in the beginning. For me, it was a matter of intelligence. Play calling, there was no intelligence there. Using players by deffualt. Not very many people claim that all issues fall on paganos shoulders. But this topic is most typically a can of worms. Me and you have had our disagreements about this topic, and it wasn’t about all the fault lying at paganos feet. 

 

You have to give this new staff room for growth. At least 2 years is needed to see how this team does. Yeah, I’m on the excitement train, but I’m watching everything a lot more closely than I was with the last staff, and everything seems legit. Seems. Regardless of that though we can’t have the same expectations for different coaching staffs, especially week 2 of preseason of their first year in the organization. So yeah. Can of worms. 

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15 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

I don’t think there is a lot of bashing going on. I didn’t like Pagano any better than I liked Caldwell in the end. Everything is always super exciting in the beginning. For me, it was a matter of intelligence. Play calling, there was no intelligence there. Using players by deffualt. Not very many people claim that all issues fall on paganos shoulders. But this topic is most typically a can of worms. Me and you have had our disagreements about this topic, and it wasn’t about all the fault lying at paganos feet. 

 

You have to give this new staff room for growth. At least 2 years is needed to see how this team does. Yeah, I’m on the excitement train, but I’m watching everything a lot more closely than I was with the last staff, and everything seems legit. Seems. Regardless of that though we can’t have the same expectations for different coaching staffs, especially week 2 of preseason of their first year in the organization. So yeah. Can of worms. 

I too am excited about the new coaching staff and am looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

With that said there is not a thread about the new staff where Pagano is not brought up and is bashed in one way or another.

Pagano was the perfect scapegoat but not too many seem to realize that.

I read where the new staff needs a couple of years for anyone to expect a winning team. Don't you find it ironic that most feel that way but Pagano was expected to win with a roster that wasn't even as good as it is now?

 

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You are right defjamz26, it will take holding onto the existing talent from the Grigson era PLUS three drafts to turn this team into a legit championship roster. Let's see what Ballard has done already through the draft and UDFA's in 17 and 18:

 

QB -

RB - Mack (17)

RB - Hines (18), Wilkins (18)

WR - Hogan (17), Cain (18)

WR - Fountain (18)

TE/HB - Daniels (17)

TE -

OL -

OL - Nelson (18)

OL -

OL - Smith (18)

OL -

 

S - Hooker (17)

S -

CB - Wilson (17), Hairston (17)

CB - Moore II (17)

LB - Leonard (18)

LB - Moore (18), Franklin (18)

LB - Walker (17), Adams (18)

DL - Basham (17)

DL - Lewis (18)

DL - Stewart (17)

DL - Turay (18)

 

P - Sanchez (17)

K -

 

Ballard has the Colts original 7 picks in the 2019 draft, plus the Jets 2nd rounder (lets hope they suck again so its top 5) and at least one Compensatory Pick in the 4th or 5th round. So another 9 picks to add to this core of draftees he's already assembled.

 

The in season (young) pickups aren't to be discounted either like K.J. Brent, Nunez- Roches, Ross Travis, D.J. White, and Jacoby Brissett (which will likely net us a draft pick or two to add to the 2019 crop)...

 

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