NFL adopts new Anthem policy

[PrincetonTiger]

6 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

No matter how the players chose to address the issues, most fans would not find them acceptable. I remember a long time ago (more than 20 years ago, I think), Tony Dungy was making a plea for the hiring of more black coaches. That was when there were very few. Several fans said that Dungy should "just shut up and coach". Others called him racist. What he said did not seem disrespectful or wrong but fans did not like it. Some were offended. Should he not have said something to avoid offending these fans??

 

As @csmopar and others have intimated, a segment of the fans do not want to see players engaged in anything that can be perceived as political or as complaining. 

Nicely put

 

 

  As I said earlier if I had issues with a person’s political belief I would spend hours in a quiet room

    

[chad72]

31 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Because of things like the Sterling Brown incident

 

I was appalled at that. For what it is worth, I am a colored man myself, Chad is just my nickname. I do believe in fairness for all. It gets your blood boiling that a gross abuse of power happened. God knows how many have happened unreported and/or uncaught on camera.

 

However, in one of those rare occasions, where I agree with Dan Dakic (who said this on radio), this also does not justify any kind of open season to unleash misguided hate towards police officers resulting in their deaths, as has happened the last year or so in increased numbers. There are ways progress can be made and I hope for the sake of Sterling Brown, some strong justice is served that will deter such action in the future. The goal is to reduce bad apples, however we can.

[DougDew]

21 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Because of things like the Sterling Brown incident

You're on a different planet of normalcy than me, which makes it hard to have a rational discussion. 

 

I'd never consider discussing broad national policy or philosophy over a one-off incident.  When compared to all interactions between police and persons of color (that you DONT hear about), the ones you hear about amount to about 1% of the encounters. 

 

Less than 1% of anything is a random thing.

 

And still trying to process why protesting taking off your hat, hand over your heart, and standing for a 200 year old anthem that represents NATIONAL togetherness has to do with one-off random acts of misguided meanness, by less than 1% of MUNICIPAL (not national) police forces.  

 

I've stayed out of these kneeling threads because of the shear stupidity of rabbit holes that people just wont give up.  its like if they admit they're wrong about one thing, 50 years of learned ideology goes out the window. 

 

Is it really that fragile? 

[Nadine]

For me this all boils down to one group of people feeling fiercely that the national anthem must be played before a game and everyone must stand otherwise they feel disrespected vs another group of people who feel fiercely that racism occurs everywhere and on a daily basis and the country needs to do better.

 

Some are proud no matter what and feel that others should show pride too. The others feel excluded, dismissed, oppressed and, are showing that by kneeling.

 

There are strong feelings on both sides.

 

The flag, the country, and the anthem belong to all of us.  We don't get to tell each other that we don't matter. 

 

We need to work this out. That, for me, is America. Coming together is more important than anything else, including the anthem.

 

The NFL can try this but, as long as people are not united in addressing rampant social injustice, protest will continue.

[NFLfan]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

he was benched because he sucked. Yet another case of someone trying to exploit their race for gain. Personally, I wish we'd stop labeling people by their race. 

 

Ah. This was your Colonel Jessup moment  (A Few Good Men). I knew you were rationalizing before. This right here is why many don't like the kneeling. 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

I was appalled at that. For what it is worth, I am a colored man myself, Chad is just my nickname. I do believe in fairness for all, not at the expense of equality and yes, that can happen. It gets your blood boiling that so many officers had to be first called in for a routine parking violation, and that a gross abuse of power happened. God knows how many have happened unreported and/or uncaught on camera.

 

However, in one of those rare occasions, where I agree with Dan Dakic (who said this on radio), this also does not justify any kind of open season to unleash misguided hate towards police officers resulting in their deaths, as has happened the last year or so in increased numbers. There are ways progress can be made and I hope for the sake of Sterling Brown, some strong justice is served that will deter such action in the future. The goal is to reduce bad apples, however we can.

No one credible is calling for a war on police just calling out departments to get rid of the bad apples

 

   The people who commit crimes in the name of a cause are often misguided.

[NFLfan]

2 hours ago, PrincetonTiger said:

No he felt he was passed over because of his color not talent

 

    The protest brings to light incidents like what happened in Milwaukee and Montana

 

What happened in Montana? Is that recent? I saw Nadine's post about that Milwaukee Bucks player. I had not heard of that incident before this. What a terrible thing! Video clearly shows the player did nothing but police said he was menacing them. 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, NFLfan said:

 

What happened in Montana? Is that recent? I saw Nadine's post about that Milwaukee Bucks player. I had not heard of that incident before this. What a terrible thing! Video clearly shows the player did nothing but police said he was menacing them. 

A Border Patrol Agent detained two US citizens because they were conversing in Spanish

 

   I had two French who spoke nothing but French to each other 

[csmopar]

3 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Ah. This was your Colonel Jessup moment  (A Few Good Men). I knew you were rationalizing before. This right here is why many don't like the kneeling. 

Hardly. I've said all along my issue with this whole thing was injecting politics into a passtime. my comment about the above is looking at one of the things that makes Kapernick's "protest" questionable. Personally, I feel he was trying to shift the talk off of his performance drop to something else to hide the fact he sucked on the field. He did not start protesting until his benching, so it opens his protest reasons up for questioning.  That does not change the fact that regardless, it is a political stance that should stay out of the game of football. By Game, I referring to everything from warms up thru end of the game comments. 

3 minutes ago, Nadine said:

For me this all boils down to one group of people feeling fiercely that the national anthem must be played before a game and everyone must stand otherwise they feel disrespected vs another group of people who feel fiercely that racism occurs everywhere and on a daily basis and the country needs to do better.

 

Some are proud no matter what and feel that others should show pride too. The others feel excluded, dismissed, oppressed and, are showing that by kneeling.

 

There are strong feelings on both sides.

 

The flag, the country, and the anthem belong to all of us.  We don't get to tell each other that we don't matter. 

 

We need to work this out. That, for me, is America. Coming together is more important than anything else, including the anthem.

 

The NFL can try this but, as long as people are not united in addressing rampant social injustice, protest will continue.

I think that's just what the NFL is trying. To limit a divisive action yet still provide a way to protest..

[csmopar]

5 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

No one credible is calling for a war on police just calling out departments to get rid of the bad apples

 

   The people who commit crimes in the name of a cause are often misguided.

Actually, there's been several calling for war on police.  But lets not open that can.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

Hardly. I've said all along my issue with this whole thing was injecting politics into a passtime. my comment about the above is looking at one of the things that makes Kapernick's "protest" questionable. Personally, I feel he was trying to shift the talk off of his performance drop to something else to hide the fact he sucked on the field. He did not start protesting until his benching, so it opens his protest reasons up for questioning.  That does not change the fact that regardless, it is a political stance that should stay out of the game of football. By Game, I referring to everything from warms up thru end of the game comments. 

I think that's just what the NFL is trying. To limit a divisive action yet still provide a way to protest..

Politics has always been a part of sport

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, csmopar said:

Actually, there's been several calling for war on police.  But lets not open that can.

Not credible

 

  tell me who

[Nadine]

2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Actually, there's been several calling for war on police.  But lets not open that can.

Not that I'm aware of. There are extremists on all issues but, I would guess the vast majority of us just want to get rid of bad cops

4 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Hardly. I've said all along my issue with this whole thing was injecting politics into a passtime. my comment about the above is looking at one of the things that makes Kapernick's "protest" questionable. Personally, I feel he was trying to shift the talk off of his performance drop to something else to hide the fact he sucked on the field. He did not start protesting until his benching, so it opens his protest reasons up for questioning.  That does not change the fact that regardless, it is a political stance that should stay out of the game of football. By Game, I referring to everything from warms up thru end of the game comments. 

I think that's just what the NFL is trying. To limit a divisive action yet still provide a way to protest..

I know that was the intent

[NFLfan]

3 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Hardly. I've said all along my issue with this whole thing was injecting politics into a passtime. my comment about the above is looking at one of the things that makes Kapernick's "protest" questionable. Personally, I feel he was trying to shift the talk off of his performance drop to something else to hide the fact he sucked on the field. He did not start protesting until his benching, so it opens his protest reasons up for questioning.  That does not change the fact that regardless, it is a political stance that should stay out of the game of football. By Game, I referring to everything from warms up thru end of the game comments. 

I think that's just what the NFL is trying. To limit a divisive action yet still provide a way to protest..

 

I disagree about the reason Kaepernick did it. He has invested a lot of money into many causes since he has been out of the NFL. If he did not care he would not be as involved. From what I have read, he seems very invested in what he is doing and it is impacted many people.

 

And some change has occurred. Some police departments are working better with the community since the protests started. It made other players want to get involved in their communities in ways they never have. What Doug Baldwin and others are doing is impressive. 

[PrincetonTiger]

@chad72

   Great views

       I am not in a racial minority but my physical limitations helps me understand a ton 

    Apologies for any curt ness 

Edited May 24, 2018 by PrincetonTiger

[NFLfan]

2 hours ago, csmopar said:

I am curious, I'm not disagreeing or agreeing but how do you come to the conclusion/connection between Rosa Parks and the anthem protests?

 

Both defied societal norms.

[NFLfan]

@Nadine and everyone else:

 

I think it has been fantastic discussion. For the most part, posters have been civil. This is a good way for people to learn from others. We all have different experiences and different perspectives. This is a great way to share our views. Thanks. 

[PrincetonTiger]

3 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

You dont see a similarity? Both defied social norms.

I see them as a direct result 

[NFLfan]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

I see them as a direct result 

 

What do you mean? Do you mean that if Parks had not staged her own form of protest, football players may not feel empowered to protest? 

[Jason_]

50 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

There are always going to be a segment of people that say hey it's not my problem or don't like Kaep for one reason or another, but he and others could have minimized that by choosing a different way.  I have seen no evidence that the players involved even tried to find another way to maximize support for their cause.   To the bolded, that is predominantly the fault of the players by the way they chose to protest, their message was lost because of that choice.

 

eh, 50/50 is the best I'll give you.  I do agree that they could have done things much better, but I put equal blame on those who are too stubborn to actually listen to the message because they're so stuck on the method.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, NFLfan said:

 

What do you mean? Do you mean that if Parks had not staged her own form of protest, football players may not feel empowered to protest? 

If the Suffragettes had not protested it would not empowered RP, MLK and others which empowered the current group of protesters(#MeTooers included)

2 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

eh, 50/50 is the best I'll give you.  I do agree that they could have done things much better, but I put equal blame on those who are too stubborn to actually listen to the message because they're so stuck on the method.

One of the reasons Slavery held on so long

[pgt_rob]

1 hour ago, Nadine said:

Why are we talking about a rapper you don't like?

 

He fits the example of what I'm trying to make. He's just the first one that came to mind since I was trying to give you the name of an actual person for reference. I'm sure there are many many more. But his stance is right along with the athletes protesting. So I think it's super hypocritical. If they want to help change this country from being so racist, maybe they should quit spewing racist words and hate speech themselves? 

[DougDew]

37 minutes ago, Nadine said:

For me this all boils down to one group of people feeling fiercely that the national anthem must be played before a game and everyone must stand otherwise they feel disrespected vs another group of people who feel fiercely that racism occurs everywhere and on a daily basis and the country needs to do better.

 

Some are proud no matter what and feel that others should show pride too. The others feel excluded, dismissed, oppressed and, are showing that by kneeling.

 

There are strong feelings on both sides.

 

The flag, the country, and the anthem belong to all of us.  We don't get to tell each other that we don't matter. 

 

We need to work this out. That, for me, is America. Coming together is more important than anything else, including the anthem.

 

The NFL can try this but, as long as people are not united in addressing rampant social injustice, protest will continue.

To the people who would actually do this, what a bunch of bunk.  The fundamental issue is that protesting the national patriotism ceremony because a few municipalities cannot control their police force 100% of the time is the equivalent of vandalism.  

 

Its like saying if you don't fix the problem I care about, I'm ruining your party until the commissioner takes it away. 

 

Another example of where people feel justified to act like parasites, use the visibility of the NFL to promote whatever social issue of the day they want addressed. 

 

How about this: They should reach into their own pockets and fund the social injustice programs they care about with their own money instead of committing vandalism, IOW bullying people with money (the NFL), until somebody else spends enough of theirs.

 

[PrincetonTiger]

5 minutes ago, DougDew said:

To the people who would actually do this, what a bunch of bunk.  The fundamental issue is that protesting the national patriotism ceremony because a few municipalities cannot control their police force 100% of the time is the equivalent of vandalism.  

 

Its like saying if you don't fix the problem I care about, I'm ruining your party until the commissioner takes it away. 

 

Another example of where people feel justified to act like parasites, use the visibility of the NFL to promote whatever social issue of the day they want addressed. 

 

How about this: They should reach into their own pockets and fund the social injustice programs they care about with their own money instead of committing vandalism, IOW bullying people with money (the NFL), until somebody else spends enough of theirs.

 

Negative words and name calling never solves anything

[2006Coltsbestever]

I still think the players that have kneeled could've found a better way to protest instead of doing it on the field while the Anthem is playing. Those players upset a lot of people, even some minorities didn't like the kneeling that have fought for our country, etc.. I didn't like the kneeling but I don't dislike the players that have done it, most of those guys are probably good guys in general. At least now the NFL adopted a Policy saying that players can stay in the locker room if they don't want to be on the field while the Anthem is playing. Me personally it is something I would've never done (kneeling that is) but that is just me.

[PrincetonTiger]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I still think the players that have kneeled could've found a better way to protest instead of doing it on the field while the Anthem is playing. Those players upset a lot of people, even some minorities didn't like the kneeling that have fought for our country, etc.. I didn't like the kneeling but I don't dislike the players that have done it, most of those guys are probably good guys in general. At least now the NFL adopted a Policy saying that players can stay in the locker room if they don't want to be on the field while the Anthem is playing. Me personally it is something I would've never done (kneeling that is) but that is just me.

Not sure if I would’ve kneeled(fear of many things) but I would have been with them every way I could

[krunk]

32 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I still think the players that have kneeled could've found a better way to protest instead of doing it on the field while the Anthem is playing. Those players upset a lot of people, even some minorities didn't like the kneeling that have fought for our country, etc.. I didn't like the kneeling but I don't dislike the players that have done it, most of those guys are probably good guys in general. At least now the NFL adopted a Policy saying that players can stay in the locker room if they don't want to be on the field while the Anthem is playing. Me personally it is something I would've never done (kneeling that is) but that is just me.

I for sure have no problem with protesting the issues that were at hand, but I wouldn't have done it during the anthem either.  The Anthem is a moment of pride for many people and that's how they also remember their loved ones who fought and died for the country.  The whole purpose of them playing it is to honor the country and peoples emotions are tied into it.  If your intent is to protest something or voice displeasure against the country or government at that moment it's a good way to get the intent of what you are standing for totally misinterpreted and slammed.  I mean all people see is you kneeling down so they think your intent is to dishonor the country and their dead grandfather or son, sister or brother at the same time.   Their emotions won't even allow them to understand your real intent.

[PrincetonTiger]

21 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I still think the players that have kneeled could've found a better way to protest instead of doing it on the field while the Anthem is playing. Those players upset a lot of people, even some minorities didn't like the kneeling that have fought for our country, etc.. I didn't like the kneeling but I don't dislike the players that have done it, most of those guys are probably good guys in general. At least now the NFL adopted a Policy saying that players can stay in the locker room if they don't want to be on the field while the Anthem is playing. Me personally it is something I would've never done (kneeling that is) but that is just me.

As I said earlier the policy will cause outrage from some because there will be mass “walkouts”

 

     I have no problem with the policy just feel that it will cause more issues and will be changed soon

[Cynjin]

1 hour ago, Buck Showalter said:

 

 

 

Sorry, I was out, until I read this last post of yours. I realize that, I, like every human, am deeply flawed & hypocritical, so that is not lost on me. I also try to see beyond borders and some of the nationalism that divides people & I pray that ALL people find peace & justice. That informs much of my opinion on what I percieve as misplaced outrage over the whole anthem protest issue. I have not meant to offend anyone, apologies if I offended earlier...

 

If there were an olive branch emoticon, I would use it here.

2

 

I agree with everything you said above and no need to apologize to me.  I am not mad at you or anyone I have had a discussion with here today.  I may not agree with you or others on a particular subject, but that doesn't mean I think you are a jerk.  I am as flawed as the next person, I make mistakes every day, and I hope that I learn from them.  Amen to the bolded.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, krunk said:

I for sure have no problem with protesting the issues that were at hand, but I wouldn't have done it during the anthem either.

Yeah same here because we do have problems with inequality but I would've protested in a different way. These players could've went on pre game shows to get their message out or even gone on CNN or FOX news and done it. Could've done interviews about inequality on the NFL Channel as well. There were many other ways to get their message out. A lot of people feel like by kneeling during the Anthem that those players basically were disrespecting our Country and our military.

[Cynjin]

2 hours ago, NFLfan said:

No matter how the players chose to address the issues, most fans would not find them acceptable. I remember a long time ago (more than 20 years ago, I think), Tony Dungy was making a plea for the hiring of more black coaches. That was when there were very few. Several fans said that Dungy should "just shut up and coach". Others called him racist. What he said did not seem disrespectful or wrong but fans did not like it. Some were offended. Should he not have said something to avoid offending these fans??

 

As @csmopar and others have intimated, a segment of the fans do not want to see players engaged in anything that can be perceived as political or as complaining. 

 

I know what you are saying, I would venture to guess that the number of fans that were against what Dungy said were far fewer than what is going on now.  What Dungy was advocating for is giving black coaches a chance in the hiring process, some thought he was advocating for a special privilege which is not what I heard him say.  Like @J@son said there is always going to be some that are offended.  IMO though, in this case, the players would have been more effective in getting to their goal of awareness and facilitating change by choosing a different method and I believe that has shown to be true by the way the message was lost and the act of kneeling became the focus.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah same here because we do have problems with inequality but I would've protested in a different way. These players could've went on pre game shows to get their message out or even gone on CNN or FOX news and done it. Could've done interviews about inequality on the NFL Channel as well. There were many other ways to get their message out. A lot of people feel like by kneeling during the Anthem that those players basically were disrespecting our Country and our military.

The problem with that is no one pays attention to pre game shows and/or told to shut and play

   Those are opinions 

  people complain that Generation X are slackers but complain when they do something IMO positive

 

    People told the Suffragettes to go back to the kitchen and the Civil Rights leaders to go to the back of the bus

 

      The one thing that I have learned is that you can not always stay in your learn

       

        I have a very progressive outlook on life  

[PrincetonTiger]

8 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

I know what you are saying, I would venture to guess that the number of fans that were against what Dungy said were far fewer than what is going on now.  What Dungy was advocating for is giving black coaches a chance in the hiring process, some thought he was advocating for a special privilege which is not what I heard him say.  Like @Jason said there is always going to be some that are offended.  IMO though, in this case, the players would have been more effective in getting to their goal of awareness and facilitating change by choosing a different method and I believe that has shown to be true by the way the message was lost and the act of kneeling became the focus.

That is your opinion and it has given a voice to many who hadn’t had one

 

    IMO 

      It gave a rise to #MeToo and has very positive results since the only negative publicity is no publicity 

[Cynjin]

2 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Those are my thoughts too. There is no way word of it would not have come out, had any of those prior efforts (prior to kneeling) by Kaep in other avenues been taken. While it does not diminish the cause still, it has now gotten to the point that the medium is clearly distracting from the message, a message that others players have chosen to devote other ways to raise awareness for. 

 

Kaep's timing was questionable, at the very least, and he did pay a price for it.

 

I agree I don't think there is any way that if Kaep had pursued other avenues it would not have been posted somewhere.

[PrincetonTiger]

IMO

   The Protest has lead to the common man knowing the root of the issue and forced them them to realize that the players are not mindless drones and provide a much needed Fund RIsing boost to much needed groups

 

  the protest is only a anti Patriotic move to those who feel that way

[crazycolt1]

4 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

IMO

   The Protest has lead to the common man knowing the root of the issue and forced them them to realize that the players are not mindless drones

Too many it's just the opposite.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

Too many, just the opposite.

And they can

    Positive Changes have been made and people are still debating it so IMO it has

 

      People are calling things that look wrong and/or learning about the other side and using the voice that had been muted

 

    Question 

       How can community action and fighting for specific constitutional rights a negative

12 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

I agree I don't think there is any way that if Kaep had pursued other avenues it would not have been posted somewhere.

If you have a single world view it could have

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

And they can

    Positive Changes have been made and people are still debating it so IMO it has

 

      People are calling things that look wrong and/or learning about the other side and using the voice that had been muted

 

    Question 

       How can community action and fighting for specific constitutional rights a negative

Look. I am not going to debate this with you as you have made it clear your point of view. You are just as unwilling to change your opinion as me, so what's the point?

[krunk]

55 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I still think the players that have kneeled could've found a better way to protest instead of doing it on the field while the Anthem is playing. Those players upset a lot of people, even some minorities didn't like the kneeling that have fought for our country, etc.. I didn't like the kneeling but I don't dislike the players that have done it, most of those guys are probably good guys in general. At least now the NFL adopted a Policy saying that players can stay in the locker room if they don't want to be on the field while the Anthem is playing. Me personally it is something I would've never done (kneeling that is) but that is just me.

I don't think you can ever escape criticism for taking a stance on an issue, but I think Kaep could have done things in such a way where he still could be playing ball right now and still gotten his message across. You have to consult with people who've made moves like he made before you take action. And I think they would have pointed out the strong and weak points of his plan and layed out a better course of action to address the issues. .

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Look. I am not going to debate this with you as you have made it clear your point of view. You are just as unwilling to change your opinion as me, so what's the point?

So why did you quote me

   I see positive change