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2018 - 2019 Indiana Pacers and everything NBA thread

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-Lakers won a thriller 114-113 over the Mavs. LeBron James sank a game winning FT at the end after missing the 1st one. The Mavs are a Bad team but I am sure the Lakers will take it.

 

-I am still not sure when or why the ESPN media decided to declare LeBron James the 2nd greatest player ever?? Almost every person on that network says it. Their train of thought I think started after the Cavs beat the Warriors in the 2016 Finals is my guess. I admit he is probably Top 5 as he is a beast and has put up phenomenal numbers in his career. He has also won 3 Championships, 4 League MVP's, but has lost in 6 Finals. 3-6 in Finals and he is a shaky FT shooter in crunch time. He missed 2 the other night against the Spurs late that cost the Lakers a win, tonight he redeemed himself but made it interesting by missing one. I think because he plays today that ESPN has to cater to the younger generation who watches their network so they have to put LeBron on a pedestal. Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar both have better resumes and were just as dominant and Magic Johnson was a better Leader and won 2 more Championships. Magic could do everything that LeBron can do and was even more Clutch and more Efficient. How the ESPN media just leaps frog LeBron over Kareem and Magic is still puzzling to me. I guess it just bugs me because I have watched all of these guys live and LeBron is the 4th best player I have seen possibly, not 2nd. I could still make a case for Wilt, Kobe, Bird, and Shaq even being just as Great. Even Russell won 11 Championships being the best player on his team although his Stats weren't eye popping.

 

-Magic Johnson winning Finals MVP as a Rookie was the most unreal accomplishment I have ever seen in the NBA period. He scored 42 Points, grabbed 15 Rebounds, and had 7 Assists in the Game 6 clincher at Philly over Doctor J, Mo Cheeks, Darryl Dawkins and company. Kareem didn't even play in Game 6, he did that without Kareem's help. Magic also beat Bird twice in the Finals being the best player on his team.

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Is it too early to say giving Myles that contract was a mistake?  We're 8 games into the season and he doesn't have a single 20+ point performance or a single 10+ rebound performance.  He's averaging 11.5 points and 5.4 rebounds per game so far.  Again, I know it's early, but it looks like that contract should have been given to Sabonis.  Hopefully he can improve his game; I still think he's the X factor this year

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3 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

Is it too early to say giving Myles that contract was a mistake?  We're 8 games into the season and he doesn't have a single 20+ point performance or a single 10+ rebound performance.  He's averaging 11.5 points and 5.4 rebounds per game so far.  Again, I know it's early, but it looks like that contract should have been given to Sabonis.  Hopefully he can improve his game; I still think he's the X factor this year

Alot of that has to do with Sabonis playing well so he is playing alot of minutes. Turner is still playing Good Defense.

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20 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

-Lakers won a thriller 114-113 over the Mavs. LeBron James sank a game winning FT at the end after missing the 1st one. The Mavs are a Bad team but I am sure the Lakers will take it.

 

-I am still not sure when or why the ESPN media decided to declare LeBron James the 2nd greatest player ever?? Almost every person on that network says it. Their train of thought I think started after the Cavs beat the Warriors in the 2016 Finals is my guess. I admit he is probably Top 5 as he is a beast and has put up phenomenal numbers in his career. He has also won 3 Championships, 4 League MVP's, but has lost in 6 Finals. 3-6 in Finals and he is a shaky FT shooter in crunch time. He missed 2 the other night against the Spurs late that cost the Lakers a win, tonight he redeemed himself but made it interesting by missing one. I think because he plays today that ESPN has to cater to the younger generation who watches their network so they have to put LeBron on a pedestal. Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar both have better resumes and were just as dominant and Magic Johnson was a better Leader and won 2 more Championships. Magic could do everything that LeBron can do and was even more Clutch and more Efficient. How the ESPN media just leaps frog LeBron over Kareem and Magic is still puzzling to me. I guess it just bugs me because I have watched all of these guys live and LeBron is the 4th best player I have seen possibly, not 2nd. I could still make a case for Wilt, Kobe, Bird, and Shaq even being just as Great. Even Russell won 11 Championships being the best player on his team although his Stats weren't eye popping.

 

-Magic Johnson winning Finals MVP as a Rookie was the most unreal accomplishment I have ever seen in the NBA period. He scored 42 Points, grabbed 15 Rebounds, and had 7 Assists in the Game 6 clincher at Philly over Doctor J, Mo Cheeks, Darryl Dawkins and company. Kareem didn't even play in Game 6, he did that without Kareem's help. Magic also beat Bird twice in the Finals being the best player on his team.

I never jump into these conversations because I wasn't alive long enough to watch any of the legends play, but I'm getting real sick of people bringing up free throw shooting as a way to diminish LeBron's greatness. That's very weak to a guy that has 3 championships.

 

The Mavs finals is the only one where he lost a final when he had the better team. When he lost to the Spurs the second time, Dwayne Wade was battling knee injuries that whole season.

 

 I can definitely see why people think LeBron is 2nd all time. Magic and Kareem had each other, MJ had the best team of all-time unless you count the Warriors, which is the team beating LeBon in finals right now.

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3 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

I never jump into these conversations because I wasn't alive long enough to watch any of the legends play, but I'm getting real sick of people bringing up free throw shooting as a way to diminish LeBron's greatness. That's very weak to a guy that has 3 championships.

 

The Mavs finals is the only one where he lost a final when he had the better team. When he lost to the Spurs the second time, Dwayne Wade was battling knee injuries that whole season.

 

 I can definitely see why people think LeBron is 2nd all time. Magic and Kareem had each other, MJ had the best team of all-time unless you count the Warriors, which is the team beating LeBon in finals right now.

That's fair and I have LeBron 4th by the way but if you couldve watched Magic and Kareem live I think you would agree with me. Jordan is #1. Magic was just so skilled and was so damn smart, he was 30 years ahead of his time. Kareem just has the best resume - look at it. Watch Game 6 of the 1980 Finals and Game 4 of the 1987 Finals on youtube and tell me what you think of Magic. 

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8 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

Is it too early to say giving Myles that contract was a mistake?  We're 8 games into the season and he doesn't have a single 20+ point performance or a single 10+ rebound performance.  He's averaging 11.5 points and 5.4 rebounds per game so far.  Again, I know it's early, but it looks like that contract should have been given to Sabonis.  Hopefully he can improve his game; I still think he's the X factor this year

I just wish Myles Turner would work on his post game. He seems to come out in most games and get hot early with 6-7 quick points and then they never go back to him.

 

Sabonis is really good in the pick n roll and in the post and Myles is not. Myles has to rely on his jump shot to get his points. 

 

Anyone that watches the games knows that Myles Turner makes a huge impact in rim protection though. Something that doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

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15 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

I just wish Myles Turner would work on his post game. He seems to come out in most games and get hot early with 6-7 quick points and then they never go back to him.

 

Sabonis is really good in the pick n roll and in the post and Myles is not. Myles has to rely on his jump shot to get his points. 

 

Anyone that watches the games knows that Myles Turner makes a huge impact in rim protection though. Something that doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

Sabonis looks damn great doesn't he?

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On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:45 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

-Lakers won a thriller 114-113 over the Mavs. LeBron James sank a game winning FT at the end after missing the 1st one. The Mavs are a Bad team but I am sure the Lakers will take it.

 

-I am still not sure when or why the ESPN media decided to declare LeBron James the 2nd greatest player ever?? Almost every person on that network says it. Their train of thought I think started after the Cavs beat the Warriors in the 2016 Finals is my guess. I admit he is probably Top 5 as he is a beast and has put up phenomenal numbers in his career. He has also won 3 Championships, 4 League MVP's, but has lost in 6 Finals. 3-6 in Finals and he is a shaky FT shooter in crunch time. He missed 2 the other night against the Spurs late that cost the Lakers a win, tonight he redeemed himself but made it interesting by missing one. I think because he plays today that ESPN has to cater to the younger generation who watches their network so they have to put LeBron on a pedestal. Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar both have better resumes and were just as dominant and Magic Johnson was a better Leader and won 2 more Championships. Magic could do everything that LeBron can do and was even more Clutch and more Efficient. How the ESPN media just leaps frog LeBron over Kareem and Magic is still puzzling to me. I guess it just bugs me because I have watched all of these guys live and LeBron is the 4th best player I have seen possibly, not 2nd. I could still make a case for Wilt, Kobe, Bird, and Shaq even being just as Great. Even Russell won 11 Championships being the best player on his team although his Stats weren't eye popping.

 

-Magic Johnson winning Finals MVP as a Rookie was the most unreal accomplishment I have ever seen in the NBA period. He scored 42 Points, grabbed 15 Rebounds, and had 7 Assists in the Game 6 clincher at Philly over Doctor J, Mo Cheeks, Darryl Dawkins and company. Kareem didn't even play in Game 6, he did that without Kareem's help. Magic also beat Bird twice in the Finals being the best player on his team.

I think you are reading too much into this. Talent wise LaBron may be the best player in NBA history. That is why they list him as 2nd.

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5 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I think you are reading too much into this. Talent wise LaBron may be the best player in NBA history. That is why they list him as 2nd.

Like I was telling Blue I have him 4th so my hate is gone for him, I just don't think he was better than Magic or Kareem. That is really all. I feel like ESPN are dissing those 2 players is where my hate is coming from. LeBron is the best athlete of all-time that has ever played in the NBA, best player is a different debate. I do have him 4th which many agree with me. Many put Wilt in front of LeBron too. When I say many it is just people like my dad and some folks at work and other friends I have. I do have 1 friend that has LeBron 2nd but he's also 30 years old. He never seen Magic or Kareem play live.

 

My Top 5 is

1. Jordan

2. Magic

3. Kareem

4. LeBron

5. Wilt

-I think alot would agree with this list and it's a reasonable list that makes sense factoring in everything. Wilt was much more dominant than Russell was despite not winning near the Titles that Russell won.

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4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Like I was telling Blue I have him 4th so my hate is gone for him, I just don't think he was better than Magic or Kareem. That is really all. I feel like ESPN are dissing those 2 players is where my hate is coming from. LeBron is the best athlete of all-time that has ever played in the NBA, best player is a different debate. I do have him 4th which many agree with me. Many put Wilt in front of LeBron too. When I say many it is just people like my dad and some folks at work and other friends I have. I do have 1 friend that has LeBron 2nd but he's also 30 years old. He never seen Magic or Kareem play live.

 

My Top 5 is

1. Jordan

2. Magic

3. Kareem

4. LeBron

5. Wilt

-I think alot would agree with this list and it's a reasonable list that makes sense factoring in everything. Wilt was much more dominant than Russell was despite not winning near the Titles that Russell won.

But in today's world where there are 7 footers all over the league Wilt may not have been as great. He played in an era where point guards were 6 foot or less. What separated Kareem was his perfection of the sky hook.

Personally I would put Bird over Wilt just because of his court smarts and his shooting. Wilt was a giant amongst players who averaged 6 ft-6-5. Also big men were allowed to dominate the lanes.

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52 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

But in today's world where there are 7 footers all over the league Wilt may not have been as great. He played in an era where point guards were 6 foot or less. What separated Kareem was his perfection of the sky hook.

Personally I would put Bird over Wilt just because of his court smarts and his shooting. Wilt was a giant amongst players who averaged 6 ft-6-5. Also big men were allowed to dominate the lanes.

I am not so sure Shaq shouldn't be at 5? I do now love my Top 4 and many realize my LeBron hate is gone now. I hope the Lakers do well. Shaq was this era's Wilt and played 7 footers every night. You have a good point about Bird, he and Magic are pretty even IMO. I think Magic was better but it's debatable. I just put Wilt at #5 because of his video game stats and he was the 1st player to really just flat out dominate individually. Guy averaged 50 Points and 25 Boards in 1 season. Kobe was Jordan Light like a Bud Light is to a Bud. A killer on the court but I do think LeBron is the better all-around player over Kobe after studying it more. LeBron and Magic are dead even but Magic has won won more Titles, there has to be a tiebreaker somewhere, he is just more clutch  = 1980 and 1987. Regarding Kobe, he couldn't play Defense like Jordan could and Jordan just never lost in the Finals, tough to overlook so I label him Jordan Light which isn't a dis.

 

-Regarding Russell he won 11 Titles but only had to win 2 series to win 8 of those and his Offensive Stats were BUTT lol. That is why he isn't in my Top 5. He had the Titles, Defense, and Rebounding Stats to be in my Top 10 though. 

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31 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not so sure Shaq shouldn't be at 5? I do now love my Top 4 and many realize my LeBron hate is gone now. I hope the Lakers do well. Shaq was this era's Wilt and played 7 footers every night. You have a good point about Bird, he and Magic are pretty even IMO. I think Magic was better but it's debatable. I just put Wilt at #5 because of his video game stats and he was the 1st player to really just flat out dominate individually. Guy averaged 50 Points and 25 Boards in 1 season. Kobe was Jordan Light like a Bud Light is to a Bud. A killer on the court but I do think LeBron is the better all-around player over Kobe after studying it more. LeBron and Magic are dead even but Magic has won won more Titles, there has to be a tiebreaker somewhere, he is just more clutch  = 1980 and 1987. Regarding Kobe, he couldn't play Defense like Jordan could and Jordan just never lost in the Finals, tough to overlook so I label him Jordan Light which isn't a dis.

 

-Regarding Russell he won 11 Titles but only had to win 2 series to win 8 of those and his Offensive Stats were BUTT lol. That is why he isn't in my Top 5. He had the Titles, Defense, and Rebounding Stats to be in my Top 10 though. 

Russell was a fantastic player but he played in an era where money did buy championships.

On a side note I wish there was a hard cap in the NBA like the NFL has. This paying the NBA office for going over the cap has changed the original game so much. I would like to see the game go back to teams being able to play zone defenses. Now IMO that would be my choice.

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11 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Russell was a fantastic player but he played in an era where money did buy championships.

On a side note I wish there was a hard cap in the NBA like the NFL has. This paying the NBA office for going over the cap has changed the original game so much. I would like to see the game go back to teams being able to play zone defenses. Now IMO that would be my choice.

A hard Cap would make the NBA much more better, I agree 100%!. Man I wish there was one. Everyone knows the Warriors are going to 3-Peat :facepalm:. Soon I will have to start talking about Durant and Curry in these damn greatest ever discussions. GS is a machine. I would love to get Klay Thompson in Free Agency and pair him up with Oladipo. We are set at Big's with Turner and Sabonis.

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Where's Durant rank all-time? Top 20?, Top 30? He is 6'11 and can score at will. Has 2 Championships now. How about Curry, where does he rank, Top 20?, Top 30? He is probably the greatest 3 point shooter of all-time. Reggie and Ray Allen may have an argument to that, that is about it.

 

-Curry has 3 Titles and 2 League MVPs.

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Pacers should win tonight against an unhealthy Bulls roster. We'll see. 

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Nate McMillan and his slow starts. Painful. 

 

Also, what happened to the defense? They are getting to the back easily. 

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1 minute ago, MTC said:

Well, we won. 

It was a dog fight till the end but Pacers did it. A win is a win no matter where it comes from.

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Any win on the road is great in the NBA. Teams usually play over the head at home. Turner had 18 Points and 6 Blocks last night, he earned his money. Nice 107-105 win. Pacers are currently 6-3 and now 4th in the East. Pretty much where I had them at so they are playing Good. 

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8 minutes ago, DraftMaster said:

Good teams win those close games, especially on the road.

Yeah I will take any road win no matter who it is against. The Pacers have shown the ability to be able to win close games the last 2 seasons. That is a sign of a clutch team.

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Solid first half performance against the Celtics. We always play them close. 

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I almost broke my chair celebrating. Holy cow. What a game.

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8 minutes ago, MTC said:

I almost broke my chair celebrating. Holy cow. What a game.

 

Un flipping believable, VO has already cemented himself as the best Pacers since Reggie.  As much as I liked Jermaine, Artest had potential but squandered it, PG was a playboy, Victor is the REAL deal.  As Quinn said, this is his city and he's back home where he belongs from his IU days.  He seems like he loves being a Pacer.  

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2 minutes ago, DraftMaster said:

How did Kyrie miss a layup? I'll take 3rd in the East though!

 

Yeah that's a good question lol. . .  I was thinking to myself game.......  Boy I was wrong.  

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How was that for a big win! What a game, Pacers 102 Boston 101. Nice signature win early in the season. This is the kind of win that will gain you respect across the league. Victor is something else. Pacers are now 7-3 and 3rd in the East.

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45 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

Victor Oladipo! Mr. Clutch! What a finish

Yes Mr. VO is pretty good.  :agree:

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Congrats on the win last night (and Dipo made a HUGE shot) but I have to say I know the Celtics problem.......

 

I feel bad for Kyrie since if not for his late 3's they aren't even in the game and he missed a layup he always makes. He was in foul trouble most of the game so his minutes were cut. I feel sorry for him since they all call him the team leader and he took blame for the entire loss after the game due to the layup and foul issues. He always takes blame now for any loss.

 

But thats not what I think is the problem with Boston.

 

Something to keep an eye on and I was afraid of this.

 

Gordon Hayward. Does. Not. Fit. 

 

At least right now.

 

He was a train wreck in this game.

 

The C's have 3 high quality wings with Tatum/Brown/Hayward and it's crowded and they have zero chemistry with Hayward being not even CLOSE to 100%.

 

We'll see how this goes and if it works as the season moves on (it's only early November) but I kinda wonder if Gordon should be moved to the bench and if Brad would dare even do that since they have such a strong history.

 

 

Further proof of this not working is when Jaylen Brown missed the Bucks game a few nights ago, Hayward had his best game. When Hayward missed the Knicks game a few weeks ago, Tatum had his best game.

 

Making these wings fit together in a starting lineup and getting Hayward back into this is proving more difficult I think then most imagined......

 

But we'll see how it swings out with time.

 

Still have high hopes for the C's later this season, but it looks really crowded with people who want the ball and you got to give Kyrie his shots regardless.

 

If the C's didn't have the #1 D again, they would not always be in these games since the offense is really topsy turvy.

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It breaks my heart to hear C's fans criticize Gordon, but last night.....he passed the ball at the end right to the Pacers. Hey I knew he loved Indy but not that much. lmao 

 

But man I really want him to succeed, but I feel he is hurting Tatum/Brown.

 

I dunno, lets see how this works out in another week or two.

 

Hayward still has a long ways to go compared to his highlight reels in Utah.

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1 minute ago, Jules said:

Congrats on the win last night (and Dipo made a HUGE shot) but I have to say I know the Celtics problem.......

 

I feel bad for Kyrie since if not for his late 3's they aren't even in the game and he missed a layup he always makes. He was in foul trouble most of the game so his minutes were cut. I feel sorry for him since they all call him the team leader and he took blame for the entire loss after the game due to the layup and foul issues. He always takes blame now for any loss.

 

But thats not what I think is the problem with Boston.

 

Something to keep an eye on and I was afraid of this.

 

Gordon Hayward. Does. Not. Fit. 

 

At least right now.

 

He was a train wreck in this game.

 

The C's have 3 high quality wings with Tatum/Brown/Hayward and it's crowded and they have zero chemistry with Hayward being not even CLOSE to 100%.

 

We'll see how this goes and if it works as the season moves on (it's only early November) but I kinda wonder if Gordon should be moved to the bench and if Brad would dare even do that since they have such a strong history.

 

 

Further proof of this not working is when Jaylen Brown missed the Bucks game a few nights ago, Hayward had his best game. When Hayward missed the Knicks game a few weeks ago, Tatum had his best game.

 

Making these wings fit together in a starting lineup and getting Hayward back into this is proving more difficult I think then most imagined......

 

But we'll see how it swings out with time.

 

Still have high hopes for the C's later this season, but it looks really crowded with people who want the ball and you got to give Kyrie his shots regardless.

Damn good Post as usual Jules. Stevens will figure it out regarding rotation. I agree though you guys have an overload at SF, nobody thought Tatum would be this good before you signed Hayward. Brown is shockingly Good too LOL. I still honestly think Boston has the best team in the East but for 1 night I can celebrate this win. Oladipo is Great and Clutch, he is Paul George + a Porterhouse Steak from St Elmo if you get me :thmup:

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6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Damn good Post as usual Jules. Stevens will figure it out regarding rotation. I agree though you guys have an overload at SF, nobody thought Tatum would be this good before you signed Hayward. Brown is shockingly Good too LOL. I still honestly think Boston has the best team in the East but for 1 night I can celebrate this win. Oladipo is Great and Clutch, he is Paul George + a Porterhouse Steak from St Elmo if you get me :thmup:

 

Pacers deserved the win and it was pay back for that weird win we stole last year in Indy.  That sort of weird clustered up ending sort of game thing that makes no sense. Pacers/Celtics have some really fun games.

 

I am just saying, something is off with the rotations in Boston. It makes my head spin.......too many wings...

 

I have seen some bizarre lineups from Brad this year and I think he is still trying to figure this thing out.

 

Pacers seem pretty set though with their chemistry.

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1 minute ago, Jules said:

 

Pacers deserved the win and it was pay back for that weird win we stole last year in Indy.  That sort of weird clustered up ending sort of game thing that makes no sense. Pacers/Celtics have some really fun games.

 

I am just saying, something is off with the rotations in Boston. It makes my head spin.......too many wings...

 

I have seen some bizarre lineups from Brad this year and I think he is still trying to figure this thing out.

 

Pacers seem pretty set though with their chemistry.

The 1 thing the Pacers have is top notch Chemistry (that is huge). They only have 1 SuperStar and that is Oladipo but the Chemistry is what makes them Good and potentially Great. Having 2 Big's like Turner and Sabonis really helps too. We can control the middle against most teams. Bogdanovic can spread the floor with his 3 shooting too, the Pacers just seem to have a perfect blend of players right now that are having fun playing together. They trust each other. 

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3 hours ago, Jules said:

It breaks my heart to hear C's fans criticize Gordon, but last night.....he passed the ball at the end right to the Pacers. Hey I knew he loved Indy but not that much. lmao 

 

But man I really want him to succeed, but I feel he is hurting Tatum/Brown.

 

I dunno, lets see how this works out in another week or two.

 

Hayward still has a long ways to go compared to his highlight reels in Utah.

 

Celtics fans were complaining about the referees, but they rarely attacked the basket in the paint. The offense was almost entirelely three point shooting.

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9 minutes ago, MTC said:

 

Celtics fans were complaining about the referees, but they rarely attacked the basket in the paint. The offense was almost entirelely three point shooting.

We did shoot 16 more FT's but they shot 46 3's and didn't drive much to the basket. After the way we got screwed in Game 5 vs LeBron last year with the series at 2-2, I do not want to hear a single person whine about us screwing anyone :funny:. We got punked by the REFS royally in that game and everyone knows it. It cost us a Playoff series.

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1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We did shoot 16 more FT's but they shot 46 3's and didn't drive much to the basket. After the way we got screwed in Game 5 vs LeBron last year with the series at 2-2, I do not want to hear a single person whine about us screwing anyone :funny:. We got punked by the REFS royally in that game and everyone knows it. It cost us a Playoff series.

 

It wasn't the refs at all last night.

 

What it really breaks down to with the Dipo 3 at the end is the Pacers rushed it down the court so the Celtics would be in transition and would be unable to organize their unit to put Smart on Dipo. They wanted to catch Irving on Dipo which they did and burn him. Smart had a MONSTER game defensively and Irving is clearly no Marcus Smart on defense lol. Irving wasn't supposed to be on Dipo but somehow was and Brad was yelling something on the sideline to Kyrie but it was too late.

Normally at end of Celtics games in those situations Stevens likes to have a time out or hopes the opponent calls one so they can substitute Smart over Irving in for D and vice versa for O with Irving over Smart if it's the other way around.

 

Pacers know the Celtics well enough by now that they seriously did get them with their pants down.

 

Thats the luck of the draw with top teams and close endings. Just like last year too with the game in Indy when Rozier stole the inbounds pass then dunked it with seconds left. Thats the game ending that made poor oldunclemark have to go lie down for the night.

 

Stevens just basically says at the end of these sorts of games that one team made one more big play then the other. 

 

Don't think the refs were a factor in this one since it seemed more about who could out smart the opponent and just come up with that one extra play...

 

JMO though.

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    • Oh, that's what I fear, for sure.  But even if that's the case.... What's the long term solution?  Who starts at QB in whatever city they have to play in in 2030?  Jk.... slightly.... That damage won't be undone soon, or easily.... Surrounding talent won't fix his issues, just raise the floor a game or two.
    • Oh, the players already know that, regardless of who starts jn The present, past, future, they are well aware JB isn't a true #1 leader at the qb going forward.  Stop gap? Sure... If there's an endgame.
    • This list does not fit the narrative you are trying to put forward.  Only 2 would even be close and even they had chances.    Browns and Redskins don't even count; they are dysfunctional franchises who had plenty of chances but couldn’t get out of their own way.   Dolphins, Titans, and Bears all could have had good QBs if not for trying for retreads, sticking with a player too long (Mariota, Tannehill), and/or missing when they had good players available to draft (Ryan, Mahomes, Watson). Also jury still out on Trubisky.   Vikings and Broncos have not had the best luck with QBs lately, but they have also lingered in the mediocre to good record zone a lot which doesn't help them getting a high draft pick for QB . They also got a few good seasons out of retreads which helped them in the short term, but not the long term. Although in the Broncos case I am sure they will take their SB with PM.   I will give you the Jets, they have had some bad luck. When they did have good picks there wasn’t much available; although jury still out on Darnold (also they could have taken Lamar Jackson). Buffalo also had some bad luck for a few years, but they also blew their chance to draft Mahomes (though Allen may still turn into something).   During the last few years all these teams have had periods where they had a player/or players  as good or better than JB and it didn't amount to much other than keeping them from a top draft pick. If you don't have an very good - elite QB you are just playing the lottery hoping for one of those all the stars perfectly aligned runs that rarely happen.
    • Thanks for this.   My favorite part is his tackle at 5:30.  
    • Not a big deal.     Brissett puts fans in an odd position.   He is almost the definition of average.  His QB rating is average.  His yards per game is below average but his INT % is above average.  So I can understand supporters and detractors.  
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