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#Fireballard


csmopar

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3 hours ago, NewEra said:

How dare he come in a build the team just like he said he would. The fricken nerve of him. 

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand how a sustainable roster is built.

 

3 hours ago, IndyD4U said:

But... But... We need playmakers

 

And I've never heard of these guys! 

 

Whaaa

Agreed.. My thing is that if you haven't heard of these players, you shouldn't worry about critiquing the pick. These were all players we discussed in the Free Agent/Draft sub-forum and it seems that those are the people that are ok with the picks (even if they were selected a bit earlier than expected). From all of us that watch film, we got some talented players in this draft.

 

2 hours ago, PrincetonTiger said:

The Negativity is the Biggest Reason TigerTown has not been around

Don't let the sour-grapes keep you away. We need that TigerTown wisdom!

 

2 hours ago, jameszeigler834 said:

I'm sure some people here don't feel the same but I think this team has improved both day 1 and 2 and this draft so far is actually exceeding last years.

I don't agree with you very often, but I 100% agree with this. We got some really good pieces in the trenches in this draft. I think people will be surprised at how much that does for the rest of the roster.

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I, like many fans don't have a scouting department at my disposal. I have you tube with highlight reels and that makes me dangerous. I fall in love with certain guys watching "highlight" tapes....so every year no matter who is the GM I scratch my head at certain picks. I can say, quite honestly, I don't know if Ballard is a genius or an * at this point based on who we have drafted. But again, going all the way back to Polian, I have felt this way EVERY year, with EVERY draft class to some degree.

 

All I can really take away from our draft to this point is, we needed a lot of everything, so from a did we need a (___) ? I am ok with the positions we drafted, and 2: my psychological assessment team I don't have has given me no insight as to who the best (love using these dumb cliché's ) Horseshoe guys are....so I will do all my draft analysis over the course of about 16 weeks of observation between the white lines....get with me a year from now and I will tell you how happy or upset I am with what has/will be going down these 3 days.

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8 hours ago, csmopar said:

There's a difference between critiquing and flat whining. MOST on here the past few days have done the latter. Only a few actually are critiquing. 

So when someone says we reached and there were better options for the positions he drafted, which category does that fall into for you? As that is most of the opinions I've seen.

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9 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

So when someone says we reached and there were better options for the positions he drafter, which category does that fall into for you? As that is most of the opinions I've seen.

I will answer that for him, saying a pick is a reach isn't really whining. The last 2 picks are reaches. I think csmopar was being sarcastic because there are some people in here that are complaining about every pick we make which gets old. The Nelson pick was outstanding, Leonard and Smith picks were Good picks at worse.

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5 hours ago, Shive said:

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand how a sustainable roster is built.

 

Agreed.. My thing is that if you haven't heard of these players, you shouldn't worry about critiquing the pick. These were all players we discussed in the Free Agent/Draft sub-forum and it seems that those are the people that are ok with the picks (even if they were selected a bit earlier than expected). From all of us that watch film, we got some talented players in this draft.

 

Don't let the sour-grapes keep you away. We need that TigerTown wisdom!

 

I don't agree with you very often, but I 100% agree with this. We got some really good pieces in the trenches in this draft. I think people will be surprised at how much that does for the rest of the roster.

!00% agree with you this draft so far is a huge turning point for this franchise.

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8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

------------------- THIS ----------------------

 

Thank you!     Thank you!    Thank you!

 

Really appreciate you saying this!   :thmup:

No problem haha

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I will answer that for him, saying a pick is a reach isn't really whining. The last 2 picks are reaches. I think csmopar was being sarcastic because there are some people in here that are complaining about every pick we make which gets old. The Nelson pick was outstanding, Leonard and Smith picks were Good picks at worse.

 

17 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

So when someone says we reached and there were better options for the positions he drafted, which category does that fall into for you? As that is most of the opinions I've seen.

As 2006 said, saying a pick is a reach isn't whining. What I'm referring to as whining is the ones that have literally complained about every single pick. The ones that are saying they are "done with Ballard or the team" as several have. 

Heck, there's one for sure I think is a reach and possibly a second. But I'm gonna wait and see before freaking out. 

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25 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

So when someone says we reached and there were better options for the positions he drafted, which category does that fall into for you? As that is most of the opinions I've seen.

When the commenter literally only posts that it was a REACCHHH, like many of these opinions have been.. it's whining. There's no substance. There is no conversation about why they picked these people. They don't take the time to watch the presser to try and understand (and it makes perfect sense when you listen to them break it down for the media.) 

 

There weren't better options available at those positions. They literally said in the presser they were at the top of the board for reasons listed. Ballard said Turay would have been coming off quickly. Great length and bend and better speed off the ball than anyone in the draft at the position. Lewis has the versatility he wants on the d-line to rotate in situational waves. 

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Ballard has always said the way to success is through stacking drafts. He is not looking to win a superbowl this year and so he is looking to ramp up competition in areas each draft has depth. This year, that is not at WR or CB. 

 

Let's build the trenches this year and then look at the skill positions once we know more about how players like Wilson, Ebron, Rogers, Grant, etc play this year in their respective new systems.

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7 hours ago, esmort said:

 

I am willing to give Ballard the benefit of the doubt for another year or so and see how things come together... but that doesn't mean blind faith and no criticisms.

 

I have read some of your comments and no you have not been willing to give Ballard the benefit of doubt.

 

As far as posters making comments like, if you are so good at player evaluation why don't you get a job doing it, it's the truth.   It is also true that you and the other posters here are no where near qualified to give an in depth critique of these prospects.  Here's an idea, why don't you let the process play out.  Because the only way you will know if any of these picks are good is with the benefit of hindsight. 

 

If Ballard is a very good GM, like we hope he is, he will hit on half his picks and miss on half.  

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9 hours ago, Mr.Debonair said:

I think majority like Nelson pick. Most of the head scratching has come from the second round picks, outside of say Smith 

 

The main one I am strongly skeptical on is the raw DE.  Seems like TJ Greene all over again, drafting solely on measurables in the 2nd round.  It's not that I might have to wait a year or two before he will play well.  It's more that he may never play well at all.  These raw guys bust a lot.

 

I also question the value of the guard with Josh Jackson still on the board.  But at the very least I feel like he could pan out and his chance will come even if he doesn't start right away.

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12 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

It's just weird for me. Love Nelson (obviously), love every pick today as a 3rd rounder, but we took them in the 2nd. Maybe I'm underestimating how high they went, but I would of literally taken these guys a round later if we had four 3rd rounders. I'm going to need convincing by Ballard or someone here we didn't reach a bunch. 

 

The problem is that YOU may've taken these guys in the 3rd playing a mock draft game with your friends, but this is the NFL draft, and the other 31 teams probably wouldn't let you take them in the 3rd.

 

For example, Leonard. He was a bit of a reach at 37 because most boards listed him at somewhere between 40 to 60. However. If he was a reach, then half of the NFL reached yesterday, because cca. 25-28 players were picked (almost a full round of players) who were listed AFTER Leonard. 

 

NFL teams don't "reach". They don't make full draftboards with all available players like we or mockers do. Their board consist only the players they want or might take if available. They leave out a lot of players from their boards. Then they group their players on their board in tiers. All they care about is to get a player in each tier if possible, and don't give a ... where that player is listed on the "full all-draftee board".

 

Leonard was/is the 4th (or 5th depending on how you want to use them, what traits you value more than others) best off ball linebacker in this draft class. Roquan and Edmunds were in the fist tier, Van Der Esch, Evans and Leonard were in the second tier. The the rest were in lower tears. Four of these 5 guys have gone in the first round, only Leonard was available. The next off ball guy after Leonard was in a lower tier already. The Colts are in dire need of a good off ball LB, and Leonard is one of the better prospects of this draft. What do you do? Do you risk of not picking him with the 37 because he is a 20-30 * "reach" there according to mock draft boards? Hell, no. You take him because you know other teams who might also looking for a off ball LB won't care about "reaching" neither. They will take the guy before you if they can.

 

So, unless the guy is indeed a huge reach, who is burried deep in the list so coming from "nowhere", and the Colts could soooo obviously pick him much later, I don't care about "reaching". What I do care about is, who I would've taken instead of who Ballard took, and what direction that would've steared our entire draft from that point.

 

The only pick I don't understand and question is the 2nd guard pick. I thought Mewhort / Slauson / Haeg / Good together with Nelson are enough quality and also enough depth there. so we don't need more bodies there. At lest not drafted bodies. At the same time, would've liked to pick Oliver, Jackson or Landry. After hearing medical concerns about Landry, I took him off my list. Oliver had a question mark because he's better fit in a man only press cover 3 system than a mixed zone+man. Jackson however would've been ideal fit in my opinion. So, I kinda wish we've had taken him instead of Smith. But that's all. And honestly, I don't know nothing about how Ballard sees the current roster, how he sees guys like Desir and Moore, or Haeg and Good (or Mewhort). And don't know nothing about his plans for the remaining of the offseason. He might have a plan to bring in a CB from FA or trade one or stg. So, 'm not judging, I'd just peferred the Jackson pick better  there. I can live with it.

 

(The 2 edge picks are perfect in my book. Both are riskier selections with upside. That's what I wouldve done if I was Ballard with this many picks. I'd went for the upside and played the numbers game too.)

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18 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

The main one I am strongly skeptical on is the raw DE.  Seems like TJ Greene all over again, drafting solely on measurables in the 2nd round.  It's not that I might have to wait a year or two before he will play well.  It's more that he may never play well at all.  These raw guys bust a lot.

 

I also question the value of the guard with Josh Jackson still on the board.  But at the very least I feel like he could pan out and his chance will come even if he doesn't start right away.

Agreed but ppl here will try to make you seem crazy for even 2nd guessing 

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4 hours ago, DaveA1102 said:

I am going to make a bold statement....

 

Chris Ballard and his team of scouts know more than us on this forum.

 

Let's wait until the season starts before we make our judgements. 

I remember that argument for Grigson after the Dorsett pick too. 

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It’s amazing how many GM’s we have in here.  WOW!  Didn’t realize I was among a group of NFL Executives and GM’s controlling the reigns of 32 NFL teams.  Impressive!  My only questions for y’all is this?  Why did you get fired from your GM/Management spot with an NFL team?  Y’all obviously were unceremoniously fired because there is no way an owner would let such knowledge, insight into personnel decisions and the draft walk away so easily.  SMH...Until Ballard has an opportunity to put HIS plan in place and either succeed or fail with it, I’m not going to pretend to know more than he does.  If it collapses, then I’ll join you other fired GM’s and pound my chest and say how much more I knew than him.  

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2 minutes ago, ricker182 said:

I remember that argument for Grigson after the Dorsett pick too. 

 

In hindsight Grigson wasn't very good at player evaluation,  but he still knows a lot more than any poster on this board.

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1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

When the commenter literally only posts that it was a REACCHHH, like many of these opinions have been.. it's whining. There's no substance. There is no conversation about why they picked these people. They don't take the time to watch the presser to try and understand (and it makes perfect sense when you listen to them break it down for the media.) 

 

There weren't better options available at those positions. They literally said in the presser they were at the top of the board for reasons listed. Ballard said Turay would have been coming off quickly. Great length and bend and better speed off the ball than anyone in the draft at the position. Lewis has the versatility he wants on the d-line to rotate in situational waves. 

Then it is a matter of opinion and not whining. You are literally saying that anyone who disagrees is a whiner. 

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11 hours ago, csmopar said:

Here. With all the whining and crying and otherwise boo hooing going on about how Ballard didn't impress, he didn't do this or that, he didn't bring home the Lombardi tonight. So  I'll just go ahead and save you all the time and start this thread for you...

 

feel better now?  :lol::peek:

Threads like this are bad for discussion. I know, I know you are talking about the flat out whinerssss!!!! Is this any better? Answer. No.

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15 minutes ago, ricker182 said:

I really like the guy so far but what you said isn't true at all.  

  

 Especially with all this "trust the binder" garbage

I haven't seen anyone blindly following him. I am one of those that was lumped into that category because I support his decision making. But I also take the time to listen to him explain through his press conferences and understand what he looking to accomplish, unlike most people on here. That's not me blindly following him. That's me doing my due-diligence as a fan and making an educated and informed opinion.... again unlike most people on here. 

We complained for years that Grigson never spoke to the media, and now that we have a General Manager who literally lays everything out on a silver platter for everyone to consume, no one takes the time to listen. Chris Ballard is the most approachable GM in the league with the media. He thoroughly explains his decisions and has consistently laid out his vision... We are watching it being executed. 

Those that mention the "Binder" aren't spewing garbage... they just are more informed than you are. Chris Ballard was said by former executives to be the most organized scout they ever encountered, and that he would be exceptional as a GM when it came to scouting and organization... That's where "trust the binder" comes from. He knows more than you and I, and you should sit back and listen.

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12 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

In hindsight Grigson wasn't very good at player evaluation,  but he still knows a lot more than any poster on this board.

He has never proven he's a better talent evaluator than most dedicated fans.  

  

He would school us on everything else though. 

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10 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

Then it is a matter of opinion and not whining. You are literally saying that anyone who disagrees is a whiner. 

No I "literally" am not. I said that anyone who only posts that a pick is a reach without going into depth of why it is a reach, especially when they do it dramatically like I have seen several times on here, is whining. There have been several posts on here that have legit concerns and actually have informed opinions that are willing to elaborate a little more than one sentence. I can converse with that and enjoy differing opinions. But when it comes off like Donald Trump and his "WRONG" line... I can't take it seriously

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17 minutes ago, ricker182 said:

A thread whining about whining is worse than the few people with criticisms.    

  

Why is this a thing? 

Cause I was bored...

 

and it's not a thread whining about whining, it's a thread mocking and making fun of those who are whining and all doomsday scenarios about our picks 

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17 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

I have read some of your comments and no you have not been willing to give Ballard the benefit of doubt.

 

As far as posters making comments like, if you are so good at player evaluation why don't you get a job doing it, it's the truth.   It is also true that you and the other posters here are no where near qualified to give an in depth critique of these prospects.  Here's an idea, why don't you let the process play out.  Because the only way you will know if any of these picks are good is with the benefit of hindsight. 

 

If Ballard is a very good GM, like we hope he is, he will hit on half his picks and miss on half.  

 

I think you need to go back and look again, because you are confusing me with someone else or you are remembering Grigson comments. I have been pretty supportive of Ballard. Including vocally supporting his approach to free agency. 

 

I made some recent comments about preferring a different direction than Nelson at #6, and even those were not especially critical of Ballard. 

 

I have given a few comments on players I liked or didn't prior to the draft, but even that was few and far between; you haven't seen in any in depth rookie critiques from me. I didn't even do a mock draft so again you must be thinking of someone else. I watch college football and watch some player breakdowns/write ups but definitely don't "study tape". 

 

As far as telling people they should go get a job doing it I still maintain it is a ridiculous statement. Because even if someone had years of proven picks doing it as an amateur on a website, hobby, etc.. It's not a job someone can can go get regardless of how good they are. So telling people that they should go get the job is just a way overused snarky dig. 

 

I agree many of the complaints/critiques are ridiculous, but some will turn out to be right. This would be a boring forum if everyone just showed up to agree how great every move we make is; and the constant cheap shot/"look at me I'm a comedian" comments at any complaints or criticism (even if I don't agree with most) is more annoying than the complaints themselves. 

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I play a sport that takes incredible balance, coordination and toughness. I have been to the upper echelon of the sport and know the level it takes to play there.

Now I'm old and broken down and playing with the local amateurs for fun. Sitting in a locker room listening to these "amateurs" talk about players I know and respect is painful. "He sucks", "he's a wussy", "his daddy got him a spot on the team", etc, etc.

My point here is that many of the players the "amateurs" believe are trash, are full of all the traits that add up to winning at the professional level. While I appreciate the freedoms of the 1st Amendment, I don't take the opinions/critiques/whining of "amateurs" very seriously and for good reason.

If you were to meet these players, interview them and quiz them on everything important to you, I think you would have a different ranking than what is being thrown around in the media.

I realize nobody likes being told that their opinion mean very little, but let's be real here. Our opinions mean absolutely zero to the professionals.

I enjoy reading comments on this forum, but I feel like I'm in a locker room full of amateurs squawking about things that aren't going to make our team better.

 

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11 hours ago, Trueman said:

Some people just love skill positions.

 

This is an anti-Polian draft and it’s glorious. 

 

Bill Polian paid much attention to the O-line and defensive ends (ever heard of Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis?).....his problem with his high O-line draft picks is that they didn't pan out.... Tony Ugoh was a high 2nd round pick. There was another guard/center taken in the 2nd round who was a bust. I think it was the year that Polian drafted 3 centers and not one of them stuck.I'll never forget him admitting that the O-line is the most difficult part of a team to scout and draft.....

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11 hours ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Just because he has a vision doesn’t mean it’s right and doesnt mean it’s wrong. Just like you believe he’s making the right moves, it’s okay for some not to feel the same way

 

Here's the thing that annoys me about this whole process.

 

These guys have not even made it to Indy for the press conference yet but we get all the histrionics about Ballard reaching or thinking he's smarter than everyone else and all the other nonsense that people have said on here.  Can these guys play a game or two for Indy first before we decide the draft is a total bust?  That seems logical to me.

 

And by the way - this same theory applies to those who are overly effusive in their praise of a player or the draft as a whole.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

No I "literally" am not. I said that anyone who only posts that a pick is a reach without going into depth of why it is a reach, especially when they do it dramatically like I have seen several times on here, is whining. There have been several posts on here that have legit concerns and actually have informed opinions that are willing to elaborate a little more than one sentence. I can converse with that and enjoy differing opinions. But when it comes off like Donald Trump and his "WRONG" line... I can't take it seriously

Clearly people who say reach have a reason. You want a long paragraph explanation as to why. Clearly they believe there was better, or the person could have been there later. Whether they believe better scheme fit, better skill, or poor measurable, they have a reason. Which most likely are the same across the board as to why. 

 

So why does it matter if they don't explain to you, you can probably guess why anyways. 

 

With that being said, you are discounting anyone who disagrees by stating they reached. Which again is most of the problems, or they preferred someone else. I liked Connor Williams and thought he would be better. Landry or Carter would have been better. Lewis would have been there four picks later as he was far from the best available, by all draft grades. Green and Hubbard were better than the two DE's we got. 

 

Does that suffice even though I, nor anyone else, owe you any kind if explanation?

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17 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

Here's the thing that annoys me about this whole process.

 

These guys have not even made it to Indy for the press conference yet but we get all the histrionics about Ballard reaching or thinking he's smarter than everyone else and all the other nonsense that people have said on here.  Can these guys play a game or two for Indy first before we decide the draft is a total bust?  That seems logical to me.

 

And by the way - this same theory applies to those who are overly effusive in their praise of a player or the draft as a whole.  

 

 

I understand what you’re saying. Whether you take the “wait and see approach” or the “I dont like the pick approach,” you shouldn’t be mad to feel bad about your opinion. That goes for both sides of the equation

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10 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

Clearly people who say reach have a reason. You want a long paragraph explanation as to why. Clearly they believe there was better, or the person could have been there later. Whether they believe better scheme fit, better skill, or poor measurable, they have a reason. Which most likely are the same across the board as to why. 

 

So why does it matter if they don't explain to you, you can probably guess why anyways. 

 

With that being said, you are discounting anyone who disagrees by stating they reached. Which again is most of the problems, or they preferred someone else. I liked Connor Williams and thought he would be better. Landry or Carter would have been better. Lewis would have been there four picks later as he was far from the best available, by all draft grades. Green and Hubbard were better than the two DE's we got. 

 

Does that suffice even though I, nor anyone else, owe you any kind if explanation?

This is a forum for discussion... if they have a valid reason, why wouldn't they air it and discuss it like an adult human being? I'm not discounting people that disagree, you continue to say that. I respect differing opinions like the one you just posted. I said I don't respect people that in their best Donald Trump impression say "WRONG>>>BALLARD REACHED... I'M RIGHT" with no reasoning, and generally, no ability to back it up. 

Hubbard was considered by many to be better yes. Lewis was a 2 time team captain of the Ohio State football program. Perhaps Ballard likes his leadership and character and ability to stop the run better than his teammate Hubbard? Could that possibly be why he liked him better? NFL.com has Lewis rated 0.2 lower than Green and Hubbard and Turay even closer in ratings (even though he's considered an edge rusher when none of the other 3 are) But you know this, right?

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1 minute ago, Mr.Debonair said:

I understand what you’re saying. Whether you take the “wait and see approach” or the “I dont like the pick approach,” you shouldn’t be mad to feel bad about your opinion. That goes for both sides of the equation

 

But if you're thinking that Ballard has already messed up this draft, that is an inherently flawed point of view.  Those who point this fact out are not wrong.  Maybe it could be done with more tact but they are simply not wrong.  

 

Maybe if you are "made to feel bad" about such an opinion, perhaps an evaluation of the opinion is on order?

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33 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

Here's the thing that annoys me about this whole process.

 

These guys have not even made it to Indy for the press conference yet but we get all the histrionics about Ballard reaching or thinking he's smarter than everyone else and all the other nonsense that people have said on here.  Can these guys play a game or two for Indy first before we decide the draft is a total bust?  That seems logical to me.

 

And by the way - this same theory applies to those who are overly effusive in their praise of a player or the draft as a whole.  

 

 

I agree 100%. I try to remain objective with these players as only time will tell. But Ballard's vision includes developing players over several years. Pass rushers don't just come out the womb and get to the quarterback. It takes a while to develop them into superstars. Some people cannot grasp that. I think Basham and Turay have tremendous upside and I hope sincerely at least one of them turns into a true passrusher. I reserve judgement. 
 

 

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