Peyton And The Redskins Game [Merge]

[TubaGuy]

Now that the Indianapolis Star has seen fit to take a look at this...a full 3 days after I raised it here on the forum, maybe we can take a look at having a discussion on this topic. I'm not talking about punishments for the Redskins; a full investigation still needs to take place before that can be determined. But with the decision on Peyton coming sometime this week, I think it is relevant that we take a look back at this game, and this play, to see what has brought us to this point this week...

http://www.indystar.com/article/20120304/SPORTS03/203040355/Colts-QB-Peyton-Manning-s-injury-has-link-BountyGate-

[Tony Sullivan]

Now that the Indianapolis Star has seen fit to take a look at this...a full 3 days after I raised it here on the forum,

6 years after it happened :hmm: I've been reading about that Redskins game being the cause since Peyton had his first procedure done.

[TubaGuy]

People here in Indy have been talking about it for years. I think with the whole bounty story it has just made the whispers about it become out-loud talking, if not shouting. Funny how one play like that can cause a situation like we are looking at now. Back then, if you had said the city would be looking at the team releasing Peyton because his arm strength had diminished because of that play people would have said you were nuts. But it is entirely possible now.

[ViriLudant]

People here in Indy have been talking about it for years. I think with the whole bounty story it has just made the whispers about it become out-loud talking, if not shouting. Funny how one play like that can cause a situation like we are looking at now. Back then, if you had said the city would be looking at the team releasing Peyton because his arm strength had diminished because of that play people would have said you were nuts. But it is entirely possible now.

Quick question:

How can it be proven that this caused the injury?

Is there definitive proof?

[TubaGuy]

You cannot prove to a definite point that this absolutely caused his problem. If you were in a car wreck and you developed nerve damage in a shoulder, can you be absolutely certain the wreck caused it?? Maybe there was already a weakness in that shoulder that was there, and the wreck simply aggravated it. It's an argument that any insurance company can pull out for any physical ailment. But just like it is common sense that the car wreck was the MAIN contributing factor in the hypothetical nerve damage I just laid out, it is common sense that the play in question was the main contributing factor in aggravating Peyton's current situation and the past 4 neck procedures.

[Peyton and Eli fan]

Has Peyton ever blamed that play? I know Dungy did, but I don't know if Peyton ever publically said that. Also, that first game of 2010 against Houston probably had something to do with the current state of affairs.

[JCPatriot]

You cannot prove to a definite point that this absolutely caused his problem. If you were in a car wreck and you developed nerve damage in a shoulder, can you be absolutely certain the wreck caused it?? Maybe there was already a weakness in that shoulder that was there, and the wreck simply aggravated it. It's an argument that any insurance company can pull out for any physical ailment. But just like it is common sense that the car wreck was the MAIN contributing factor in the hypothetical nerve damage I just laid out, it is common sense that the play in question was the main contributing factor in aggravating Peyton's current situation and the past 4 neck procedures.

It's not as cut and dry as that. If you are healthy, and then you have a car accident, and then you develop nerve problems that you didn't have before, it is fairly easy to make the connection. Can you prove it 100%? No, but you can make a very strong connection. You were healthy, you were involved in a traumatic event, and then you developed a condition that is often the result of a traumatic event. There is a strong link.

The reason this does not translate well to Manning's case is that Manning is involved in a traumatic event almost every week during the season. He gets hit pretty much every game. It's much more difficult to go back and point to one specific hit and say with reasonable certainty that this is the hit that caused his nerve damage.....especially when the symptoms didn't develop until years later. It's like taking your car accident example and trying to apply it to a demolition derby driver. He is in a car accident every week, so going back and trying to isolate one specific accident as the cause of the problem becomes much more difficult.

[jemack]

I don't have the video, but if you look at PM's 1st int in SB 44, he gets a wicked block in the back during the return and his head snaps back.

I always thought that play was what did him in.

[jjcolts]

Tony Dungy was the head coach and I am sure he knows his players health better than we do - if he says that, that game was the beginning of some "injury" problems then I believe it.

Whether that is the only reason, obviously not, as Peyton has been hit more times after that game.

BUT would those hits thereafter be as impactful if there wasn't that initial injury?

[Peyton and Eli fan]

We can all believe that this was the cause of Peyton's problems, but there's no proof. He didn't get medical treatment, wasn't on the injury report that I know of, finished the game.

[Smonroe]

As it stated in the article, there wasn't even a penalty called on that play. I still remember sitting there stunned that the refs let it go.

Peyton came back in the second half to torch the Skins. He looked pretty healthy then.

It's obviously a contributor to his neck issues, along with a bunch of other hits. Who knows if it was the start though.

[jemack]

What the Skins game and the New Orleans SB do have in common is at that time, both opponents had a Bounty program

[ViriLudant]

You cannot prove to a definite point that this absolutely caused his problem. If you were in a car wreck and you developed nerve damage in a shoulder, can you be absolutely certain the wreck caused it?? Maybe there was already a weakness in that shoulder that was there, and the wreck simply aggravated it. It's an argument that any insurance company can pull out for any physical ailment. But just like it is common sense that the car wreck was the MAIN contributing factor in the hypothetical nerve damage I just laid out, it is common sense that the play in question was the main contributing factor in aggravating Peyton's current situation and the past 4 neck procedures.

Take the number of sacks that Peyton has taken, plus the number of knockdowns, hits, etc., from years back until recently, and try to pinpoint when a neck injury "began." It wasn't an injury, Tuba, that was a result of one hit; if that were the case, and it WAS the 'Skins game, he would have suffered right away.

I would argue that since his velocity/skill did not diminish in '07/'08, etc., that you CAN'T pinpoint to that one game.

[Vance]

What the Skins game and the New Orleans SB do have in common is at that time, both opponents had a Bounty program

Gregg Williams was also the DC of the Redskins at that time. So yes, almost certainly.

[indy1888]

I believe that play is likely what started the problems that Manning developed. I still remember that play very well, seeing him bent backwards, and him laying there grabbing at his shoulder. We really don't know if he was having minor symptoms from that point forward, but Dungy being there would know that kind of information. Him not being on the injury report really doesn't mean much to me, becuase there were reports he was having serious issues with this in 2010 and he was never on the report then either. It's very possible the disc herniation started on that play and gradually got worse to the point where nerve issue was invovled. I just went through something with my wife, she had back pain 5 years ago and MRI revelead a bulging disc. The pain went away for the most part, until about 6 months ago she developed sciatica in her leg from the same disc because over time it had worsened and now had nerve involvement. It had to be surgically repaired 2 days ago, she had a microdiscectomy which i believe is the same procedure Manning had on the neck the first 2 attempts.

[since 1960]

If this Redskin hit indeed was the start of this injury, it is ironic that the Redskins are rumored to be seeking him for QB.

[TubaGuy]

Take the number of sacks that Peyton has taken, plus the number of knockdowns, hits, etc., from years back until recently, and try to pinpoint when a neck injury "began." It wasn't an injury, Tuba, that was a result of one hit; if that were the case, and it WAS the 'Skins game, he would have suffered right away.

I would argue that since his velocity/skill did not diminish in '07/'08, etc., that you CAN'T pinpoint to that one game.

Viri, we will just agree to disagree. I manage a business and at times it can be physical in nature. To this day, I have some daily shoulder pain that can be at times pretty sharp. I can pinpoint something that happened about 5 years ago that more than likely caused the biggest part of what I feel today. Did I have physical aspects to my job before that? Of course. Have I had physical aspects to my job since that time. Yes. But since that one happening, I have had more problems and pain than any one instance. The funny thing is that when it happened, it hurt but I laughed it off as a typical "happening" that goes with my job. In essence, the same thing kind of thing that Peyton certainly did during the Redskins game (although I'm not sure how much laughing he did at the time). But hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. I can pinpoint to that day when the majority of my current pain started, and anyone with any true sense of the matter can do the same thing with pain they feel. Most people will tell you that the Redskins game, and that one play in particular, was a MAIN contributing factor, if not THE main cause, of Peyton's pain and structural problems needing the 4 procedures.

[jemack]

I just saw the Redskins play on you tube to refresh my memory and must say If there was a 1st domino in PM's neck problem, that would have my vote. Hope I'm not breaking any rules.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nBxHse5s74

[The Peytonator]

Well I guess Greg Williams owes Phillip Daniels a pretty hefty bounty now....hey he did take him out for the season.

God I hate Greg Williams.

[Peyton and Eli fan]

Here's Daniels reply...

Daniels, now the Redskins' director of player development, responded thusly on his Twitter account:

Funny how Tony Dungy is tracing Manning's neck problem back 5 years ago. I still to this day think it was a good hit and only fined because of who the QB was. Andre pulling him forward and my arm across his chess [sic]going opposite direction and he falls to his knees causing my arm to go higher. Refs saw same thing so that's why there was no flag. Sometimes as a QB you have to know the end of the road and get down instead of trying to make a spectacular throw. I have never been a dirty player so him getting hurt in that game was not me trying to hurt him but rather him being in crazy position. I think he has thrown for a million yards since then and taken a few other hits since 2006.

#ItsFootball

#Redskins

:

[TubaGuy]

What a shock...Daniels denies having anything to do with hurting Manning or being part of a bounty system. Case closed. I guess the NFL can rest easy now...

[Peyton and Eli fan]

What a shock...Daniels denies having anything to do with hurting Manning or being part of a bounty system. Case closed. I guess the NFL can rest easy now...

Don't think he's denying there was a bounty system. That's been pretty well established. He's saying it was a clean hit on Manning.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I compare that hit in the Redskins game with Manning's neck as a teenager getting his license and spinning tires everytime he takes off.

The tires will wear out over time, but getting his license was the starting point.

That dirty/late hit was the likely starting point of Manning's neck/arm issues.

[ViriLudant]

I have to laugh; that hit was "late"? Peyton still had the ball in his hand as he was being hit. It wasn't a dirty hit, either, hence why there was no flag. Was it a bit unnecessary? Yes, perhaps, but this is a man's game.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I have to laugh; that hit was "late"? Peyton still had the ball in his hand as he was being hit. It wasn't a dirty hit, either, hence why there was no flag. Was it a bit unnecessary? Yes, perhaps, but this is a man's game.

Chuckle all you want..

[betheafan41]

sorry but in my opinion the nfl is becoming a game that cheerleaders can play. im not saying what coach williams did was right because its not and he should be held accountable.....but if the nfl did not come up with these rules where you can barely touch the QB or its a fine/suspension/penalty none of this may have happened.

[jemack]

I have to laugh; that hit was "late"? Peyton still had the ball in his hand as he was being hit. It wasn't a dirty hit, either, hence why there was no flag. Was it a bit unnecessary? Yes, perhaps, but this is a man's game.

Actally, in order for his helmet to have come off, contact with the head has to have been made, which should have been a roughing call. Not manly enough for ya?

[Peyton and Eli fan]

sorry but in my opinion the nfl is becoming a game that cheerleaders can play. im not saying what coach williams did was right because its not and he should be held accountable.....but if the nfl did not come up with these rules where you can barely touch the QB or its a fine/suspension/penalty none of this may have happened.

disagree -- the bounties have been going on for years, long before the rule changes. It's not surprising, it's just surprising that they were told to knock it off and still kept it going.

[Andy]

I've been saying it for months now (not exactly on this board), but I thought that this was the hit that injured Manning's neck as he was down for like 5 minutes after the play. It definitely started something. Something else that is funny is that that defense was run by Gregg Williams, the guy who set up a bounty program back then. Maybe that had something to do with it. This hit was horrible for Peyton's neck and imo is the reason why he had 4 surgeries.

[TubaGuy]

I have to laugh; that hit was "late"? Peyton still had the ball in his hand as he was being hit. It wasn't a dirty hit, either, hence why there was no flag. Was it a bit unnecessary? Yes, perhaps, but this is a man's game.

Vin, did you see the game? No. We were watching it live; I still remember it clearly to this day. Both my wife and I came out of our seats on the play. The play was "extended" beyond the hit. That is the danger of having a bounty system. It gives incentive to turn a normal play into something more. Peyton's helmet was literally ripped off of his head. It was NOT just a normal hard hit in the flow of the game. This play was one play of a number of continuing hits in that game. We were livid that nothing was called on the play and talked at the time that it was incredible that Peyton wasn't seriously hurt.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But it would be just as foolish of me to make a statement of a hard/late/extended/dirty hit on Brady seeing only one play highlight from an entire game as you seem to be making of this one play in a full game with more than it's share of questionable hits.

[Coltsagent]

Why do we want to blame somebody?

[BOTT]

I have to laugh; that hit was "late"? Peyton still had the ball in his hand as he was being hit. It wasn't a dirty hit, either, hence why there was no flag. Was it a bit unnecessary? Yes, perhaps, but this is a man's game.

it's a man's game when the defense crosses the line, but when a defensive player gets chopped blocked get ready for the hissy fit. and just because there wasn't a flag doesn't mean it was clean...just ask brett favre and the vikings.

[BOTT]

Actally, in order for his helmet to have come off, contact with the head has to have been made, which should have been a roughing call. Not manly enough for ya?

don't think that was illegal @ the time

[jemack]

Head grazes were called, even in 2006

[number28]

2006? my question is how come he played a few more seasons after this, without having the surgery during the 2007 off season?

[ruksak]

don't think that was illegal @ the time

As jemack eluded to, even those silly finger swipes across a helmet were called at the time. Now the rule has been revised and they are no longer allowed to consider such inadvertent contact as illegal contact. To say that Manning was down when his helmet was grappled from his head is a gross understatement.

[ruksak]

2006? my question is how come he played a few more seasons after this, without having the surgery during the 2007 off season?

Been wondering about this myself? Why was it allowed to fester as it was? A great question.

[Peyton and Eli fan]

Been wondering about this myself? Why was it allowed to fester as it was? A great question.

Got better then got aggravated. Eventually tried 3 or 4 surgies to allow him to keep playing. Did everything he could to avoid the season ending surgery. Played in pain instead.

[ruksak]

Played in pain instead.

For how long and when though?

[Thewholefnshow28]

Yes, it was definitely an ugly hit, but trying to point to this one single hit just reeks of trying to create a witch hunt. Peyton before that hit took plenty of hits and he has taken tons of hits after. Trying to pinpoint this single hit is just a way for Colts fans to find someone to blame for Manning's injury now.

Soon there will be a bunch of Indy fans with pitch forks and torches marching towards St. Louis.