Cynjin

Players can no longer lower helmet.

Recommended Posts

The new rule that lowering the helmet to initiate contact is going to be a huge change if strictly enforced.   Especially when running between the tackles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It will definitely help the RB position.

 

I am fine with players lowering the helmet as long as it is not helmet-to-helmet vs any position. However, with the fast pace, you are not going to accomplish that, hence lowering the helmet had to be addressed. A lot of times, you will see the RB dancing around outside the tackles and then here comes the boom with a strong safety lowering his helmet to the helmet of the runner. I wondered why they never did away with that. They help the pass catchers that way, why not help the runner that way too?

 

QB is stationary in the pocket, and costs way too much, so I can understand owners wanting the lowering of the helmet to any part of the body rule vs QBs. Against all other positions, helmet to helmet should be fined or flagged. Heads up football is not how a lot of these guys grew up with, so they do not know much different, however that is not an excuse for continuing to play that way. Lots of money and player safety warrants these rules and they should understand.

 

Also, a 2 game suspension should be doled out to those lowering their helmets vs a player already wrapped up and a second defender (like Trevathan vs Davante Adams in that TNF game) comes in and has a helmet to helmet hit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/28/2018 at 9:25 AM, chad72 said:

It will definitely help the RB position.

 

I am fine with players lowering the helmet as long as it is not helmet-to-helmet vs the RB. You will see the RB dancing around outside the tackles and then here comes the boom with a strong safety lowering his helmet to the helmet of the runner. I wondered why they never did away with that. They help the pass catchers that way, why not help the runner that way too?

 

QB is stationary in the pocket, and costs way too much, so I can understand owners wanting the lowering of the helmet to any part of the body rule vs QBs. Against all other positions, helmet to helmet should be fined or flagged. Heads up football is not how a lot of these guys grew up with, so they do not know much different, however that is not an excuse for continuing to play that way. Lots of money and player safety warrants these rules and they should understand.

 

Also, a 2 game suspension should be doled out to those lowering their helmets vs a player already wrapped up and a second defender (like Trevathan vs Davante Adams in that TNF game) comes in and has a helmet to helmet hit.

 

I am not sure how much it will help the rb position.   Many rbs also lower their helmet to initiate contact,  especially when trying to hit a defender with the shoulder the head naturally lowers.  Yes also tend to lower their helmets when trying to initiate contact.   Imo it's a large change to the way the game is played.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

I am not sure how much it will help the rb position.   Many rbs also lower their helmet to initiate contact,  especially when trying to hit a defender with the shoulder the head naturally lowers.  Yes also tend to lower their helmets when trying to initiate contact.   Imo it's a large change to the way the game is played.

 

Yes it is. They retained lowering the helmet in certain cases, now even that would be gone. I do wonder how they will deal with incidental helmet-to-helmet like the cases you mentioned, RB trying to protect himself, lowers shoulder naturally lowering head, and a helmet-to-helmet happens. 

 

What is next, eliminating the stiff arm to avoid neck injuries? I am not sure. Football is a violent sport by nature and athletes with a lot of power and speed will force unavoidable situations, can't catch them all.

 

My point about the RB position is when RBs are blind sided, or any runner as a matter of fact and the helmet-to-helmet being allowed in those cases. Alvin Kamara got his concussion because of a helmet-to-helmet outside the tackles from Deion Jones of the Falcons in that TNF game. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Cynjin said:

The new rule that lowering the helmet to initiate contact is going to be a huge change if strictly enforced.   Especially when running between the tackles.

I know they are trying to bring the head injuries down but with as fast as they are going when they go to lower the shoulder the head will come down subconsciously ..... I hope they don’t get flag happy like they were last year .... it will ruin the game even more. There’s already a flag thrown almost every play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, TdungyW/12 said:

I know they are trying to bring the head injuries down but with as fast as they are going when they go to lower the shoulder the head will come down subconsciously ..... I hope they don’t get flag happy like they were last year .... it will ruin the game even more. There’s already a flag thrown almost every play.

 

That's was my concern,  when a player lowers his shouder, his head will come down.  So is that a penalty now?  If it is then that is a big change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

That's was my concern,  when a player lowers his shouder, his head will come down.  So is that a penalty now?  If it is then that is a big change.

Yeah I don’t know how you target that and flag lowering the shoulder .... I feel like it’s going to go to review and slow the game down with penalties and flags .... people are going to tune out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The full language will be worked out with the Head coaches soon.  But basically,  if you lower and initiate contact with your helmet first, it will be flagged; irregardless of position (Guard, RB DE, Safety, etc...)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Yes it is. They retained lowering the helmet in certain cases, now even that would be gone. I do wonder how they will deal with incidental helmet-to-helmet like the cases you mentioned, RB trying to protect himself, lowers shoulder naturally lowering head, and a helmet-to-helmet happens. 

 

What is next, eliminating the stiff arm to avoid neck injuries? I am not sure. Football is a violent sport by nature and athletes with a lot of power and speed will force unavoidable situations, can't catch them all.

 

My point about the RB position is when RBs are blind sided, or any runner as a matter of fact and the helmet-to-helmet being allowed in those cases. Alvin Kamara got his concussion because of a helmet-to-helmet outside the tackles from Deion Jones of the Falcons in that TNF game. 

While I agree with almost all of your comment, but I have always had a problem with the stuff arm.

An offensive player can use a stuff arm but let a defensive player even touch an offensive players face mask and it's a 15 yard penalty now.  

Flags are throw just for incidental face mask touching but yet an offensive player can legally use his hands as pretty much a ram?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shouldn't be lowering your head anyway....see Ryan Shazier.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, BOTT said:

Shouldn't be lowering your head anyway....see Ryan Shazier.

 

Exactly. No coach teaches lowering your eyes and ramming your head in first...

 

Players do it but it is not a technique, it is a byproduct that has run rampant.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Exactly. No coach teaches lowering your eyes and ramming your head in first...

 

Players do it but it is not a technique, it is a byproduct that has run rampant.

I tend to agree with this assessment.

We have long complained about the tackling technics in the NFL. If this causes players to use the correct method of tackling it wont be a bad thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I tend to agree with this assessment.

We have long complained about the tackling technics in the NFL. If this causes players to use the correct method of tackling it wont be a bad thing.

 

The way the rule is written affects more than what happened to Shazier.  Players lower their heads all the time, Olinemen on goal line and short yardage plays, cut blocks, RBs picking up blitzes, CBs going low to take out a receiver's legs, and on and on.  It will be interesting to see how this rule is enforced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

The way the rule is written affects more than what happened to Shazier.  Players lower their heads all the time, Olinemen on goal line and short yardage plays, cut blocks, RBs picking up blitzes, CBs going low to take out a receiver's legs, and on and on.  It will be interesting to see how this rule is enforced.

 

I think the subjective difference would be whether the whole body goes with the lowering of the head during blocks or if the helmet leads and is used as a launching tool. I think that difference is what they are trying to narrow down, albeit it will be hard to nail down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

I think the subjective difference would be whether the whole body goes with the lowering of the head during blocks or if the helmet leads and is used as a launching tool. I think that difference is what they are trying to narrow down, albeit it will be hard to nail down.

I can envision a lot of flags flying at first till it is established what is acceptable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Cynjin said:

 

The way the rule is written affects more than what happened to Shazier.  Players lower their heads all the time, Olinemen on goal line and short yardage plays, cut blocks, RBs picking up blitzes, CBs going low to take out a receiver's legs, and on and on.  It will be interesting to see how this rule is enforced.

 

Indeed.  I guarantee if the head leads and makes first initial contact, there will be a flag.  If those in New York think it is flagrant, with hurtful intent, they will call the Head Official and have said player disqualified (ejected). That is now allowed too. Without official asking for help. NY sees every play of every game anticipating challenges.

 

Another thing, eliminating the 3 point stance is talked about a future possibility.  The other thing they are looking at, how to make kickoffs more safe as well.  Yup, those lawsuits has really cause reaction/overreaction by the NFL.

 

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

I can envision a lot of flags flying at first till it is established what is acceptable.

 

Especially in pre-season.

 

The NFL will travel to all teams in August with video tape(s) on plays that are allowed now (legal), and those that are not (or a foul) for ALL rule changes.  Officials will be asked to be extra conscientious in pre-season to make those calls. Players in regular season will be better at not committing the errors, and refs will be a touch more lenient in non flagrant cases, I feel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

 

Another thing, eliminating the 3 point stance is talked about a future possibility.  The other thing they are looking at, how to make kickoffs more safe as well.  Yup, those lawsuits has really cause reaction/overreaction by the NFL.

 

 

 

There is talk of eliminating kick offs altogether.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

There is talk of eliminating kick offs altogether.

 

Along with making it a Punt, or allowing fair catch (in the field of play) that then places the ball at 25 or 30, etc...

 

The thing they must address, speedsters that run 4.3 - 4.4 and get 40 yards head start running in to blockers that run to a spot and turn around and "take the bullet".  Thing is, once they do, those ST team speedsters (only) guys will go broke. (not needed)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are ruining football...It's a dangerous game, and these guys know what they are signing up for..They are paid accordingly as well..No one is forcing anyone to play the game...These penalties are going to completely change games and alter the outcomes..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Along with making it a Punt, or allowing fair catch (in the field of play) that then places the ball at 25 or 30, etc...

 

The thing they must address, speedsters that run 4.3 - 4.4 and get 40 yards head start running in to blockers that run to a spot and turn around and "take the bullet".  Thing is, once they do, those ST team speedsters (only) guys will go broke. (not needed)

If they do that it will take one of the most exciting plays in the game away.  A kick off or punt return is a game changer.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

They are ruining football...It's a dangerous game, and these guys know what they are signing up for..They are paid accordingly as well..No one is forcing anyone to play the game...These penalties are going to completely change games and alter the outcomes..

 

Yup

 

4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

If they do that it will take one of the most exciting plays in the game away.  A kick off or punt return is a game changer.

 

Yepper, but there are lots of punt plays that are exciting too...  and those are not going anywhere and may replace the kickoff. Lining up the guys in front of each other reduces the velocity of players downfield, less injuries. The league is aware of what they are doing, but feel they must in the interest of addressing safety.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's an instinctful thing to lower the helmet, no way to police this...The helmet to helmet, and targeting rules were enough already...There is NO WAY to make football safe...Might as well play flag football now...

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm getting tired of all this over emphasis on safety.  Nothing wrong with striving to be safe but I think they are starting to get too extreme.  And the thing is at some point they are going to bring some New Commissioner in and start relaxing the rules after it appears they made a stiff enough effort to try and be safe.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Football is popular for a reason, the danger and violence is what what makes it so intriguing.....Are they gonna make boxers and ufc fighters where pads and not allow kicks or punches to the head because guys can get hurt? Are the gonna ban auto racing because you can be killed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, krunk said:

I'm getting tired of all this over emphasis on safety.  Nothing wrong with striving to be safe but I think they are starting to get too extreme.

 NFL is suffering now for the cover ups of the past by the owners. The hiring of doctors who turned their backs on the truth is catching up now.

Sad part it is effecting the fan bases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 9:38 AM, Cynjin said:

 

I am not sure how much it will help the rb position.   Many rbs also lower their helmet to initiate contact,  especially when trying to hit a defender with the shoulder the head naturally lowers.  Yes also tend to lower their helmets when trying to initiate contact.   Imo it's a large change to the way the game is played.

I agree....and a number of NFL defensive players feel the same way.  As Rob Ninkovich tweeted, "stopping the run in the NFL just became a lot easier".  Essentially, RB's can no longer lower their head and use it as a battering ram. 

 

Think about a guy like Marshawn Lynch....on a 1st and goal situation from the 2yd line...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 NFL is suffering now for the cover ups of the past by the owners. The hiring of doctors who turned their backs on the truth is catching up now.

Sad part it is effecting the fan bases.

To me they should be more focused on making sure the players are properly tended to when they get concussions and enforce stronger emphasis on making sure the teams are giving the right data about concussions and the players mental state.   Its like they flipped the script and put the entire onus on the player for the concussions.  Then they moved to remedy the problem by penalizing and extracting money from the players for the way they play.  What does this have to do with all the lies you told the public about concussions?

 

Sure some changes need to take place on the field but you can only make football so safe.  They are starting to get too crazy with this stuff and it's going to start causing higher numbers of injuries due to players being too hesitant.  The bulk of the problem to me was the fault of the teams as far as Lying about the data and all the other underhanded things they did to deal with the issue.   Seems like less emphasis is being placed on what broke the issue open in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 NFL is suffering now for the cover ups of the past by the owners. The hiring of doctors who turned their backs on the truth is catching up now.

Sad part it is effecting the fan bases.

BINGO!

 

49 rule changes to "improve player safety" since 2004.  Fact is that NFL football is progressing (very quickly) to the NFFL (Nat'l Flag Football League).  The game does not even resemble the game we watched in the 70's, 80's and 90's when it was gaining incredible popularity each year.

 

Through all of this, we have come to learn that the human body was not designed to survive the game of "tackle football" as we have come to know it.

 

I will guarantee that EVERY off-season from now on will bring more of these types of rule changes in the name of "player safety".

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Totally understand NFL attempts at making game safer with helmet/kickoff issues. But at some point, there's only so much to be done. It's a violent business. twitter.com/AdamSchefte…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, krunk said:

To me they should be more focused on making sure the players are properly tended to when they get concussions and enforce stronger emphasis on making sure the teams are giving the right data about concussions and the players mental state.   Its like they flipped the script and put the entire onus on the player for the concussions.  Then they moved to remedy the problem by penalizing and extracting money from the players for the way they play.  What does this have to do with all the lies you told the public about concussions?

 

Sure some changes need to take place on the field but the bulk of the problem to me was the fault of the teams as far as Lying about the data and all the other underhanded things they did to deal with the issue.   Seems like less emphasis is being placed on what broke the issue open in the first place.

I don't see it exactly that way K.  This is a backlash as a result of the past. There is a pretty good percentage of money that goes to cover the care of past players. There is a back log of over 400 past players and their families who have sued or in the process of suing the NFL right now. The bottom line is the owners are having to pay now for them turning their backs in the past. The hiring of doctors and so called experts to lead the whole fan base away from the truth. We all know they lied and twisted the truth.

You and me both know it's follow the money and this is what this is all about IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I don't see it exactly that way K.  This is a backlash as a result of the past. There is a pretty good percentage of money that goes to cover the care of past players. There is a back log of over 400 past players and their families who have sued or in the process of suing the NFL right now. The bottom line is the owners are having to pay now for them turning their backs in the past. The hiring of doctors and so called experts to lead the whole fan base away from the truth. We all know they lied and twisted the truth.

You and me both know it's follow the money and this is what this is all about IMO.

Yeah I know their hands are being forced because of the past, but you have to take the right steps to make sure you correct the past within reason.  What are they doing to make sure the player is properly cared for immediately after the concussion?  For example the concussion protocol is one of the measures I like.  Or when a player appears to be concussed during a game I like how they pull them out of the game and put them through a series of tests like I've seen in some games.  I think more emphasis needs to be placed on stuff like that and just overall the transparency of the data that is kept and relayed to the media and the public.    As far as changes to the game I don't see a need to get rid of the Kickoff and Punt returns and all that.   I think what they've done as far as hitting defenseless players is okay.  I just don't like when they flag a guy who was definitely trying to avoid delivering a malicious blow.  Some other things are getting to be too extreme where it effects the quality of play and the product though.    And I get it's all because of backlash from previous misdeeds.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Reality Check said:

I agree....and a number of NFL defensive players feel the same way.  As Rob Ninkovich tweeted, "stopping the run in the NFL just became a lot easier".  Essentially, RB's can no longer lower their head and use it as a battering ram. 

 

Think about a guy like Marshawn Lynch....on a 1st and goal situation from the 2yd line...

 

I keep thinking about all the plays where a player lowers his head, it happens a lot.  Heck, during a field goal the most Olinemen and Dlinemen have their heads lower trying to get leverage.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, here's my question: How do you tackle these guys?
Q7v0dgh.jpg rob-gronkowski-still-parties-hard-149989

 

26a94ca2499415fbeb448c04e7dcefc1.jpg image5.jpg

 

Can't go low because then you're dropping your head; can't go for the head as that's helmet to helmet. Good luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a youth coach and someone who has gone through the USA Football training for the last 6 years.  I do agree something needs to be done, although I was not a fan of the USA Football tackling method until last year when they adopted the Seahawk method.  In our league we have seen registration drop 15%/year for the last 4 years.  While at the same time flag football registrations have gone up 20%+ over the same time period.  Parents are afraid to put their kids in tackle football.

 

I think it should be stated that when they say lowering the head, they don't mean the head changing elevation, they mean rotating the head so the eyes or forehead are parallel with the ground and you can absolutely lower your shoulders without lowering your head.  Our head coach is a former rugby player and in rugby they don't lower their head when tackling or running, they actually get penalized for improper tackling and they have far fewer concussions per 1000 than football even though they don't wear helmets, which is what the Seahawk method (or Peter Carroll method) is based on.

 

I hope it doesn't become a fiasco like the catch rule has become but making it so a guy doesn't have to necessarily worry about his career so some guy can make the top 10 plays of the week on ESPN is probably a good thing in the long run.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

Okay, here's my question: How do you tackle these guys?
Q7v0dgh.jpg rob-gronkowski-still-parties-hard-149989

 

26a94ca2499415fbeb448c04e7dcefc1.jpg image5.jpg

 

Can't go low because then you're dropping your head; can't go for the head as that's helmet to helmet. Good luck!

 

Grab on to their ankles and hold on for dear life, I guess. :) 

 

There are no rules against box shots however, a quick way to bring a man to his knees, just saying :thmup:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

As a youth coach and someone who has gone through the USA Football training for the last 6 years.  I do agree something needs to be done, although I was not a fan of the USA Football tackling method until last year when they adopted the Seahawk method.  In our league we have seen registration drop 15%/year for the last 4 years.  While at the same time flag football registrations have gone up 20%+ over the same time period.  Parents are afraid to put their kids in tackle football.

 

I think it should be stated that when they say lowering the head, they don't mean the head changing elevation, they mean rotating the head so the eyes or forehead are parallel with the ground and you can absolutely lower your shoulders without lowering your head.  Our head coach is a former rugby player and in rugby they don't lower their head when tackling or running, they actually get penalized for improper tackling and they have far fewer concussions per 1000 than football even though they don't wear helmets, which is what the Seahawk method (or Peter Carroll method) is based on.

 

I hope it doesn't become a fiasco like the catch rule has become but making it so a guy doesn't have to necessarily worry about his career so some guy can make the top 10 plays of the week on ESPN is probably a good thing in the long run.

This is something I can relate to for sure.

My middle grandson started playing football at age 8. He was always as good or better than all the kids he played with. He played as a starter in jr. high school and was an all star from day one as a linebacker. Playing football was his dream and he excelled at it as he grew to 6-1 220 in high school. He was a starter for the varsity in his freshman year.

He was considered a "beast" by everyone who seen him play. That was great for him and the school till he was a junior. In his 3rd game as a junior he suffered a pretty bad concussion that put him out for the rest of the season.

The following season in the 4th game of the season he suffered his 2nd concussion and this was the one that changed his life forever. His brain injury was so severe he will never be able to live what most consider a normal life again. He can't hardly write his name because of tremors and cant even hold a nail to hammer it. He also suffers from being able to hold attention for very long at a time. He has memory loss too.

He was never taught the correct way to tackle because all his coaches were interested in was the big hits, the forced fumbles and the so called highlight reels.

It's cool for parents or grand parents to watch their kids excel while everything seems so good. But when things go wrong then it not only hurts the kids, it hurts the ones who pushed their kids without realizing the damage that could be done. When it's too late, everyone involved is hurt sometimes the rest of their life.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

This is something I can relate to for sure.

My middle grandson started playing football at age 8. He was always as good or better than all the kids he played with. He played as a starter in jr. high school and was an all star from day one as a linebacker. Playing football was his dream and he excelled at it as he grew to 6-1 220 in high school. He was a starter for the varsity in his freshman year.

He was considered a "beast" by everyone who seen him play. That was great for him and the school till he was a junior. In his 3rd game as a junior he suffered a pretty bad concussion that put him out for the rest of the season.

The following season in the 4th game of the season he suffered his 2nd concussion and this was the one that changed his life forever. His brain injury was so severe he will never be able to live what most consider a normal life again. He can't hardly write his name because of tremors and cant even hold a nail to hammer it. He also suffers from being able to hold attention for very long at a time. He has memory loss too.

He was never taught the correct way to tackle because all his coaches were interested in was the big hits, the forced fumbles and the so called highlight reels.

It's cool for parents or grand parents to watch their kids excel while everything seems so good. But when things go wrong then it not only hurts the kids, it hurts the ones who pushed their kids without realizing the damage that could be done. When it's too late, everyone involved is hurt sometimes the rest of their life.

Wow...as a grandparent myself, it really hurts to hear this.  I am truly sorry for your grandson!

 

Fortunately, my grandson has only been interested in watching football up to this point.  He just turned 10yo and is 5'-2" & is wearing an 8.5 shoe size....hopefully, he sticks with soccer and basketball....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just read an article in bleacher report about this new rule. While I am still trying to wrap my head around it (no pun intended), I am thinking that this rule should not be governed in "real time" by the on-field officials.  Instead, film should be reviewed throughout the week & fines/suspensions should be issued accordingly.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2767037-nfls-new-targeting-rule-is-going-to-be-a-total-disaster?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

 

"One hundred percent," offensive lineman Geoff Schwartz, who played eight years in the NFL, told B/R. "They better figure out a way to narrow down the interpretation of a foul here. We thought the catch rule was a disaster and put the refs in a bind. Wait until this starts. The game is played too fast to determine on-the-field ejections."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.