What should Ballard do?

[VaAllDay757]

8 hours ago, jskinnz said:

 

Lots wrong with that statement.

 

1) It's a bad draft strategy overall and if you listen at all to Ballard, nothing close to what he believes in.

 

2) How appreciably better is Nelson than than say, the 5th rated guard?  I would estimate the difference it would make in a team would not be that much.

 

 

No it's not....the last time we drafted for the best player available was dorrsett and tell me how that worked out? We rarely draft for someone who we really need in the position and when we don't do it it never works but actually that's what ballard did in the last draft....we needed a center and we drafted a good one.....we needed a cornerback and we drafted a good one.....I believe this theme will continue on because we don't need luck out of the season again

[horseshoecrabs]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 4:33 PM, Coltfreak said:

I'm just glad there's another thread covering the exact same thing as the 10 previous.    

 

Question.  Are we suppose to start a Chubb or Barkley thread every 2 days or 3?

Obviously, it is a popular topic, or it would eventually end on it's on. Fans on all sides of the debate are very passionate 

about it.

[Coltfreak]

20 minutes ago, horseshoecrabs said:

Obviously, it is a popular topic, or it would eventually end on it's on. Fans on all sides of the debate are very passionate 

about it.

I understand that.   But there are already 10 pages in this thread covering the exact same thing   Just saying

 

 

[horseshoecrabs]

7 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

I understand that.   But there are already 10 pages in this thread covering the exact same thing   Just saying

 

 

 I thought there was only 6 pages so far in this thread, 

[jskinnz]

19 hours ago, VaAllDay757 said:

No it's not....the last time we drafted for the best player available was dorrsett and tell me how that worked out? We rarely draft for someone who we really need in the position and when we don't do it it never works but actually that's what ballard did in the last draft....we needed a center and we drafted a good one.....we needed a cornerback and we drafted a good one.....I believe this theme will continue on because we don't need luck out of the season again

 

First off Ballard did not draft a center.  That was Grigson who selected Kelly.

 

Secondly, please tell me how you know that Dorsett was the last BPA the Colts drafted?  Did Grigson and/or Ballard send you a screen shot of their draft board?

 

Take your theory - they draft the highest rated player at a position they need the most and explain that with Hooker's selection last year.  A safety was a need but the biggest need on a roster full of holes?  No, that dog don't hunt.  What it does show that when there was run on QB's, the Colts took the best player on their board.  Likely he the highest rated guy by a mile.

 

 

[Coltfreak]

8 minutes ago, horseshoecrabs said:

 I thought there was only 6 pages so far in this thread, 

The other thread covering the same thing has 10. Its the one I quoted. 

 

No biggy.   

[horseshoecrabs]

5 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

The other thread covering the same thing has 10. Its the one I quoted. 

 

No biggy.   

Well I guess it's been held over due to popular demand. Now it's about what Ballard would do instead of our New HC

[VaAllDay757]

36 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

First off Ballard did not draft a center.  That was Grigson who selected Kelly.

 

Secondly, please tell me how you know that Dorsett was the last BPA the Colts drafted?  Did Grigson and/or Ballard send you a screen shot of their draft board?

 

Take your theory - they draft the highest rated player at a position they need the most and explain that with Hooker's selection last year.  A safety was a need but the biggest need on a roster full of holes?  No, that dog don't hunt.  What it does show that when their was run on QB's, the Colts took the best player on their board.  Likely he the highest rated guy by a mile.

 

 

Ok well grigs gotta right his last time after messing up the previous year and secondly that was said during the draft we didn't need a wr in thr 1st round at all they chose the best player available and the last draft we really needed a safety because we didn't have a true free safety that was a big need on the defense....bottom line is I wouldn't be mad at all if we drafted nelson at 3 because we need an o line to protect the qb

[rockywoj]

2 hours ago, jskinnz said:

 

...

Secondly, please tell me how you know that Dorsett was the last BPA the Colts drafted?  

 

 

I recall very vividly that Grigson claimed Dorsett was the highest on their board.  He claimed they had to take him, staying true to their board and that they couldn’t believe he was there for them. That was widely reported in video and print, post draft.

 

I can’t confirm that Dorsett was the last BPA in the first round that they took, but they certainly claimed Dorsett was BPA.

 

At the time, I couldn’t believe they didn’t instead take Landon Collins, the top rated safety available, at a position of actual need.  

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

On 2/18/2018 at 6:10 PM, MPStack said:

And that defense was terrible except for the first two playoff games and SB. The Colts caught lightning in a bottle with the return of B. Sanders. 

 

The Leagues Worst regular season defense in 2006 surprised the hell out of me with that play off run , I'v heard many over the years " One Player does not make a team " But IMO  1 player really can be a huge part of it either on the Offense or Defense our SB was because of 2 special players IMO it all starts with Peyton Manning & Bob Sanders .

 

 Our future lies in the hands of Andrew Luck & he will do his part he will be back ,

Now its time to finally build a Defense who is our next ERASER on the D  ?

 

Who will be the Playmaker  that inspires his teammates .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

On 2/18/2018 at 7:19 PM, Tsarquise said:

Brissett is not a starting calibur QB. 

 

He is off to a pretty good start considering he was thrown right in on a new team at the last minute '

He started & he was the best option give him this off season with the Colts & a training camp & preseason before you throw out the baby with the bath water ..

 

                                                                 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

18 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

I recall very vividly that Grigson claimed Dorsett was the highest on their board.  He claimed they had to take him, staying true to their board and that they couldn’t believe he was there for them. That was widely reported in video and print, post draft.

 

I can’t confirm that Dorsett was the last BPA in the first round that they took, but they certainly claimed Dorsett was BPA.

 

At the time, I couldn’t believe they didn’t instead take Landon Collins, the top rated safety available, at a position of actual need.  

 

Grigson may have claimed he was BPA  he really did suck at his job considering our needs at the time .

I just looked after reading that some here say he claimed Dorsett was BPA  , I don't believe it for a second , He was an insurance policy incase T,Y Hilton moved on at least from what I'v read plus after a couple of articles it becomes clear they  " Grigson & Pagano " fell in love with a speedy receiver  instead of taking BPA  & addressing glaring needs .

https://wtop.com/nfl/2015/05/colts-add-speedy-receiver-phillip-dorsett-in-nfl-draft/

This is one both were along the same lines .

[jskinnz]

32 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

I recall very vividly that Grigson claimed Dorsett was the highest on their board.  He claimed they had to take him, staying true to their board and that they couldn’t believe he was there for them. That was widely reported in video and print, post draft.

 

I can’t confirm that Dorsett was the last BPA in the first round that they took, but they certainly claimed Dorsett was BPA.

 

At the time, I couldn’t believe they didn’t instead take Landon Collins, the top rated safety available, at a position of actual need.  

 

All true and I recall that.  But there have been drafts since then and I wanted to know how the guy I was arguing knew that was the LAST time they went with BPA.

[bananabucket]

Take the potential HoF RB and celebrate 

[Ryan Jehs]

Pick up Norwell no matter what it costs, draft Barkley mayyyyybe, I actually think Mack will pan out as one of the best. I'm kinda of leaning towards Chubb still. I'd honestly be happy with either one. 

[Qcolts]

Picking Barkley is basically following the Bengals strategy of just drafting skill players and thinking you can win. Last year the Bengals surrounded Andy Dalton with Aj Green, 1st round pick John Ross, 2nd round pick Joe Mixon, and Tyler Eifert, but they completely neglected the trenches. As a result, Dalton had his worst season in years. Mixon was ineffective running behind a terrible oline. Green faced constant double teams and the Bengals were a huge disappointment. Now the Bengals did invest in the oline early in previous drafts, but the players they had drafted to step in for the veterans leaving had not shown they were ready to play. 

 

We we can get by with Mack at RB, but we cannot get by without a decent oline and edge rushers to close a game. I am not as high on Chubb as others. Harold Landry is a more talented player imo. Landry has the elite athleticism and burst that Chubb lacks. The most important parts of Chubb’s game are his hands and relentlessness. I believe these are teachable items that can make Landry an elite pass rusher. Meanwhile, I do not believe you can teach Chubb the traits that Landry possesses. 

 

Nelson would be a very good pick imo. He would protect Luck in the passing game, open running lanes, and allow us to make easy throws off play action.

 

 

[Four2itus]

Here is another angle.....All things being equal, which prospect gives us a longer career? Assuming that Chubb, Barkley, Nelson all have injury free careers...what is the expected longevity? This is rare for the Colts to draft at #3 spot. And if this season goes as we all hope, we won't be drafting near this spot again for the foreseeable future. How does a RB, a pass rusher, or an olineman look when it comes to average career length?

 

Personally. i would rather have a 12 year onlineman, or a 9 year pass rusher....to a 6-7 year RB. What are the average numbers?

[aaron11]

4 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Personally. i would rather have a 12 year onlineman, or a 9 year pass rusher....to a 6-7 year RB. What are the average numbers?

you pretty much posted them here.

 

something to consider- how much longer will luck play?  he will be 29 on opening day, i doubt he goes another 10 years.  maybe him and barkley could make a run in the next 5

[LuckDynasty]

Draft Minoan Fitzpatrick. Hooker and Fitzpatrick on the same defense would be absolutely ridiculous. 

[A8bil]

On 2/19/2018 at 11:00 AM, crazycolt1 said:

Did you know as great as you build Bell up to be the most TDs he has run for in a season is 9?

2017 RB stats

Murray-8TDs

Hyde-8TDs

Gordan-8Tds

Howard-9TDs

Ingram-12TDs

Bell averaged 4.02 Yds per carry.

There were 15 other RBs in the league who averaged better than him in average Yds per game.

Bells longest run of the season was 27 yards. That is telling me he is not a good as runner in open space than 95% of all the runners in the NFL. Only Gore and Miller's longest runs were shorter than 27 yards.

Is he really going to be worth breaking the bank for the Steelers?  

 

 

I think those that discount Bell are making the same mistake that people judging Gore have done.  Bell is not fast.  He has great vision, sets up blocks, accelerates through creases and rarely takes a square hit...sound familiar?  Bell has the style to run for a long time, just as Gore has done.  The problem for Gore and Bell throughout their careers, is that they don't have that homerun speed so breakaway TDs are not in their repertoire.   Nor is pile driving.  Down in short yardage situations, where the lanes get much tighter and it is difficult for the o-line to get push or create creases, neither Gore's nor Bell's style are the most effective. They're not going to dive over the top or drive a LB backward..., but that doesn't mean that they are not extremely valuable as an every down back.   I posted this previously in another thread, but the game of football is one of strategy and design.  A first down run is supposed to get the offense 4-5 yds, leaving 2nd 5-6, which gives the option to either run or pass and keeps the defense honest.  Guys like Bell and Gore are great at setting up th offense that way.  Sure, there are other speed burners who have the (very) occasional homeruns, but if they are consistently leaving the offense in 2nd and long situations, the advantage immediately goes to the defense as they know a pass is upcoming and they can sell out for the pass.  Throw out the stats and judge these guys in the context of the game and you'll appreciate why Bell is such a valuable commodity.

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, A8bil said:

I think those that look at Bell are making the same mistake that people judging Gore have done.  Bell is not fast.  He has great vision, sets up blocks, accelerates through creases and rarely takes a square hit...sound familiar?  Bell has the style to run for a long time, just as Gore has done.  The problem for Gore and Bell throughout their careers, is that they don't have that homerun speed so breakaway TDs are not in their repertoire.   Nor his pile driving.  Down in short yardage situations, where the lanes get much tighter and it is difficult for the o-line to get push or create creases, neither Gore's nor Bell's style are the most effective. They're not going to dive over the top or drive a LB backward..., but that doesn't mean that they are not extremely valuable as an every down back.   I posted this previously in another thread, but the game of football is one of strategy and design.  A first down run is supposed to get the offense 4-5 yds, leaving 2nd 5-6, which gives the option to either run or pass and keeps the defense honest.  Guys like Bell and Gore are great at setting up th offense that way.  Sure, there are other speed burners who have the (very) occasional homeruns, but if they are consistently leaving the offense in 2nd and long situations, the advantage immediately goes to the defense as they know a pass is upcoming and they can sell out for the pass.  Throw out the stats and judge these guys in the context of the game and you'll appreciate why Bell is such a valuable commodity.

I never said Bell wasn't a good RB. He is the Steelers bell cow so he works and does what he is paid to do. But IMO there are a few who I would take over him because of their home run ability. That was my only point. No more, no less.

The thing about having a cow bell RB is most teams that have them don't do well in the playoffs or when that type of RB gets injured it shuts the team down. Teams that make a RBBC work are the teams who win in the playoffs and wear rings.

[A8bil]

2 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I never said Bell wasn't a good RB. He is the Steelers bell cow so he works and does what he is paid to do. But IMO there are a few who I would take over him because of their home run ability. That was my only point. No more, no less.

The thing about having a cow bell RB is most teams that have them don't do well in the playoffs or when that type of RB gets injured it shuts the team down. Teams that make a RBBC work are the teams who win in the playoffs and wear rings.

I think it is hard to draw conclusions like "teams that make a RBBC work" are those that win.  There is only 1 super bowl winner each year, and only 52 total since 1962, and over the past 15 years, the winningest team -- the Patriots -- have been succeeding with RBBC, but that doesn't mean they are winning because they have RBBC.  They are winning because they have a great coaching staff, they are consistently very good on defense, they cheat (LOL) and they have the greatest QB of all time.  

 

I think there are lots of examples historically of teams that have ridden a cow bell type back to the championship, the most recent being Seattle with Lynch (but there has been teams like the Broncos with Davis, the Rams with Faulk, etc).  But I take your point that if that back goes down with injury, a team built around a cow bell back with just an okay QB will have problems winning.  Which I think identifies the issue.  If in this salary cap era the signing of an RB prevents signing a franchise QB, the team will have difficulty winning in the event of injury to that back. In other words, its easier to win with a franchise QB and a RBBC run game, than it is with a franchise RB and a QBBC.  If you have to choose one, you have to go QB every time.  IMO, if you can get a great RB at a good price, when you already have your FB QB, you have your best chance of winning.

[crazycolt1]

44 minutes ago, A8bil said:

I think it is hard to draw conclusions like "teams that make a RBBC work" are those that win.  There is only 1 super bowl winner each year, and only 52 total since 1962, and over the past 15 years, the winningest team -- the Patriots -- have been succeeding with RBBC, but that doesn't mean they are winning because they have RBBC.  They are winning because they have a great coaching staff, they are consistently very good on defense, they cheat (LOL) and they have the greatest QB of all time.  

 

I think there are lots of examples historically of teams that have ridden a cow bell type back to the championship, the most recent being Seattle with Lynch (but there has been teams like the Broncos with Davis, the Rams with Faulk, etc).  But I take your point that if that back goes down with injury, a team built around a cow bell back with just an okay QB will have problems winning.  Which I think identifies the issue.  If in this salary cap era the signing of an RB prevents signing a franchise QB, the team will have difficulty winning in the event of injury to that back. In other words, its easier to win with a franchise QB and a RBBC run game, than it is with a franchise RB and a QBBC.  If you have to choose one, you have to go QB every time.  IMO, if you can get a great RB at a good price, when you already have your FB QB, you have your best chance of winning.

I have no different opinion with your statements but with the Colts right now is who to take? Our defense has been so poor across the board because we have no pass rush. We let less that average QBs look like pro bowl QBs because we get no pressure on them. We have lost games to back up QBs because they have all day in their pocket and just pick us apart. No pass rush and very poor linebacker play has killed us.

Mathis was the last player we had on the roster that made the opposing QB even give a thought on where he was at on the field. Getting that cow bell RB on this roster will not change the fact we cant just keep out scoring teams. It may work in the regular season but it will not work in the playoffs. The last time we had a cow bell RB was Edge. The only ring he is wearing is a gift from Irsay.

[A8bil]

3 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I have no different opinion with your statements but with the Colts right now is who to take? Our defense has been so poor across the board because we have no pass rush. We let less that average QBs look like pro bowl QBs because we get no pressure on them. We have lost games to back up QBs because they have all day in their pocket and just pick us apart. No pass rush and very poor linebacker play has killed us.

Mathis was the last player we had on the roster that made the opposing QB even give a thought on where he was at on the field. Getting that cow bell RB on this roster will not change the fact we cant just keep out scoring teams. It may work in the regular season but it will not work in the playoffs. The last time we had a cow bell RB was Edge. The only ring he is wearing is a gift from Irsay.

I'm a big believer in having a dominant pass rusher if you can find one.  Few QBs excel when under pressure.  A great pass rush makes the entire defensive secondary look better than what it is.  I was one who thought that Casserly's choice of drafting Mario Williams instead of Bush was a no brainer for the same reason.  

[A8bil]

3 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I have no different opinion with your statements but with the Colts right now is who to take? Our defense has been so poor across the board because we have no pass rush. We let less that average QBs look like pro bowl QBs because we get no pressure on them. We have lost games to back up QBs because they have all day in their pocket and just pick us apart. No pass rush and very poor linebacker play has killed us.

Mathis was the last player we had on the roster that made the opposing QB even give a thought on where he was at on the field. Getting that cow bell RB on this roster will not change the fact we cant just keep out scoring teams. It may work in the regular season but it will not work in the playoffs. The last time we had a cow bell RB was Edge. The only ring he is wearing is a gift from Irsay.

That said, I'm not convinced that Chubb merits a high pick.  Granted, I haven't seen him much, but I'm not impressed.  His pass rush is mostly just a speed rush to the outside.  he's not fast enough to rely on that alone at the NFL level.  

[crazycolt1]

16 minutes ago, A8bil said:

That said, I'm not convinced that Chubb merits a high pick.  Granted, I haven't seen him much, but I'm not impressed.  His pass rush is mostly just a speed rush to the outside.  he's not fast enough to rely on that alone at the NFL level.  

A lot of times speed is not as important as technic.

[A8bil]

14 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

A lot of times speed is not as important as technic.

Yes, use of  hands to keep tackles from locking up is really important, but if you look at most of Chubbs highlights, his pass rushing is a speed outside rush to get around a tackle.  He's gotta show more than that in the pros.  I'm also not convinced on his run D.  He makes a lot of tackles by blitzing inside the tackle to the B gap.  Looks spectacular when he guesses right and the RB is hitting the same hole.  But, the best edge setters hold up the tackle and break off the block to shut down the B or C gap.  This may just be a byproduct of the highlight films, but few show him actually setting the edge on run plays.  Chubb is bigger and better, but he kinda reminds me of Corey Lemonier who came out of Auburn....looked like a total stud in college, but his game never developed beyond a speed rush and he's now either out of the league or on its fringes.   Chubb will be better than that...but #3 pick better? Not convinced, yet.

[Deadpool]

On 2/18/2018 at 11:43 AM, jshipp23 said:

Mo Wilkerson is going to be available too...He is a guy who can significantly improve our pass rush from the inside as well...If we can pull him and Ansah or Lawrence we can then focus draft on Linebackers and quickly turn our defense in a top 15 D..

didn't lawrence get Tagged? 

[Deadpool]

On 2/19/2018 at 9:22 PM, LuckDynasty said:

Draft Minoan Fitzpatrick. Hooker and Fitzpatrick on the same defense would be absolutely ridiculous. 

and what is wrong with geathers? 

[jshipp23]

7 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

didn't lawrence get Tagged? 

I don't know, if they did it just happened..

[crazycolt1]

4 hours ago, A8bil said:

Yes, use of  hands to keep tackles from locking up is really important, but if you look at most of Chubbs highlights, his pass rushing is a speed outside rush to get around a tackle.  He's gotta show more than that in the pros.  I'm also not convinced on his run D.  He makes a lot of tackles by blitzing inside the tackle to the B gap.  Looks spectacular when he guesses right and the RB is hitting the same hole.  But, the best edge setters hold up the tackle and break off the block to shut down the B or C gap.  This may just be a byproduct of the highlight films, but few show him actually setting the edge on run plays.  Chubb is bigger and better, but he kinda reminds me of Corey Lemonier who came out of Auburn....looked like a total stud in college, but his game never developed beyond a speed rush and he's now either out of the league or on its fringes.   Chubb will be better than that...but #3 pick better? Not convinced, yet.

Some of the concerns you mentioned can be coached up by pro coaches. If Mathis is retained he may be able to work on his technic.

[Coltfreak]

Dblpost 

[Coltfreak]

8 hours ago, A8bil said:

Yes, use of  hands to keep tackles from locking up is really important, but if you look at most of Chubbs highlights, his pass rushing is a speed outside rush to get around a tackle.  He's gotta show more than that in the pros.  I'm also not convinced on his run D.  He makes a lot of tackles by blitzing inside the tackle to the B gap.  Looks spectacular when he guesses right and the RB is hitting the same hole.  But, the best edge setters hold up the tackle and break off the block to shut down the B or C gap.  This may just be a byproduct of the highlight films, but few show him actually setting the edge on run plays.  Chubb is bigger and better, but he kinda reminds me of Corey Lemonier who came out of Auburn....looked like a total stud in college, but his game never developed beyond a speed rush and he's now either out of the league or on its fringes.   Chubb will be better than that...but #3 pick better? Not convinced, yet.

Some really good posts in this thread dude

[IndyScribe]

Trade back, draft Chubb.