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So.....this is THE plan? (merge)


threeflight

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I just want to get this straight.  


We hold onto Chuck WELL PAST his expiration date by a good 2-3 years.  Partly because of some bizarre loyalty that Irsay had to Chuck and lets face it, partly because Irsay could not find a better coach to take over.  But a sense of urgency is and was starting to be felt as Lucks best years are starting to feel.....wasted.

 

So we wait.

 

And wait.  Suffering.  But we wait for THE coach.

 

Then Chuck finally gets let go.  

 

And the best we could do was McDaniels.   I am not saying anything to knock him as a coach, because he very well might have been the best of the bunch, but lets face it, if he had been the OC for lets say the Houston Texans the past how many years with the same track record of success, yes he might have been coveted but he would not have nearly the mystique that he does now.  Being a Patriot and connected to Belly and Brady gave him all kinds of star power that he might not normally have had.  With what happened to him in Denver and St Louis?  I think he is good.....not great.

 

So Josh dumps us.  And here we are.  Entering a very crucial time of Lucks career after 6 long years of Chuck....and the best we can do apparently are Reich, Campbell, and Frazier?  

 

Really?

 

We waited 6 years for Lezlie Frazier??????????

 

Sorry, but at this time the team needs a coach with star power and huge credibility to bring back the fan base and to restore the shoe.  We went through this same scenario back in the late 90s and early 2000s and it wasn't until we got that star power coach in Dungy that things really took off.

 

I would be much happier in just biding our time, even going with an interim coach for now, rather than just hiring a "guy".  

 

If you can't find the right coach now?  Don't press your luck. Don't go all in until you have the nuts.  A Saban.  A Harbaugh.  A Peyton.  Hell I would even be open to bringing on Manning as an apprentice for a year under a teacher/coach, and then for Manning to take over a year from now, rather than just get a "guy".

 

We waited 6 years for this????

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Why does everyone assume that because Manning was an awesome QB he's going to immediately be ready for a head coaching job?

 

I'd be nervous about making him an OC with zero coaching experience let alone a head coach.  Could he one day after some experience be a good coach?  Sure, he obviously knows football.  But there's so much more to being a head coach than knowing football.

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Just now, Swan Ronson said:

No, it wasn't the plan for McDaniels to back out.

 

Thanks for playing. 

I am not saying it was in the plan for him to back out.

 

But even McDaniles was a reach of sorts.  He has enough red flags flying over him to make China happy.

 

If we are going to suffer through 6 years of Chuck, especially the last 3, waiting for THE COACH?  I would hope we could do better than Frazier, Reich, and Campbell. 

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2 minutes ago, Jaric said:

Why does everyone assume that because Manning was an awesome QB he's going to immediately be ready for a head coaching job?

 

I'd be nervous about making him an OC with zero coaching experience let alone a head coach.  Could he one day after some experience be a good coach?  Sure, he obviously knows football.  But there's so much more to being a head coach than knowing football.

Bringing in Manning as an apprentice coach would be an all time home run imo. It would invigorate the fan base to no end. Let him learn for a year under a veteran coach and then give him the reigns.  

 

Peyton is one of the smartest football men I have ever come across.  If most of the 32 *s we see now as coach can make it to the NFL, I am 99% certain that Manning can not just be a coach, but a damn good one. 

 

I am not saying he should be the coach.  I am saying it is an idea, and certainly a better one than what is being thrown there now.

 

What I am saying is if the best we can do is Leslie Frazier, it is time to take a time out and wait until you REALLY get the man you want, rather than settling.

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I wonder if your co-workers thought the same thing when you were hired at your current position.....?

 

Perhaps your resume was accidentally left on a printer and they all wondered why this guy was hired when he only has X, Y but no Z.....?

 

The putz backed out.....you can whine about it or you can handle it like CB has done.

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9 minutes ago, threeflight said:

I just want to get this straight.  


We hold onto Chuck WELL PAST his expiration date by a good 2-3 years.  Partly because of some bizarre loyalty that Irsay had to Chuck and lets face it, partly because Irsay could not find a better coach to take over.  But a sense of urgency is and was starting to be felt as Lucks best years are starting to feel.....wasted.

 

So we wait.

 

And wait.  Suffering.  But we wait for THE coach.

 

Then Chuck finally gets let go.  

 

And the best we could do was McDaniels.   I am not saying anything to knock him as a coach, because he very well might have been the best of the bunch, but lets face it, if he had been the OC for lets say the Houston Texans the past how many years with the same track record of success, yes he might have been coveted but he would not have nearly the mystique that he does now.  Being a Patriot and connected to Belly and Brady gave him all kinds of star power that he might not normally have had.  With what happened to him in Denver and St Louis?  I think he is good.....not great.

 

So Josh dumps us.  And here we are.  Entering a very crucial time of Lucks career after 6 long years of Chuck....and the best we can do apparently are Reich, Campbell, and Frazier?  

 

Really?

 

We waited 6 years for Lezlie Frazier??????????

 

Sorry, but at this time the team needs a coach with star power and huge credibility to bring back the fan base and to restore the shoe.  We went through this same scenario back in the late 90s and early 2000s and it wasn't until we got that star power coach in Dungy that things really took off.

 

I would be much happier in just biding our time, even going with an interim coach for now, rather than just hiring a "guy".  

 

If you can't find the right coach now?  Don't press your luck. Don't go all in until you have the nuts.  A Saban.  A Harbaugh.  A Peyton.  Hell I would even be open to bringing on Manning as an apprentice for a year under a teacher/coach, and then for Manning to take over a year from now, rather than just get a "guy".

 

We waited 6 years for this????

Agree on all points. Jim should have opened up his wallet to get Sean Peyton last year. I feel like this has a high school level coach search. There has to be better options.

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1 minute ago, threeflight said:

Bringing in Manning as an apprentice coach would be an all time home run imo. It would invigorate the fan base to no end. Let him learn for a year under a veteran coach and then give him the reigns.  

 

Peyton is one of the smartest football men I have ever come across.  If most of the 32 *s we see now as coach can make it to the NFL, I am 99% certain that Manning can not just be a coach, but a damn good one. 

 

Like, if you're pitching giving Manning a role on the team to get his feet wet, sure.  

 

But this "coach in waiting" thing, hard pass.  

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2 minutes ago, JColts72 said:

Agree on all points. Jim should have opened up his wallet to get Sean Peyton last year. I feel like this has a high school level coach search. There has to be better options.

I think Ballard has potential to be  a really good GM.  He is a smart guy.

 

But..........I am sensing a weakness in him.  He is secretly a very cocky guy.  He likes to humble brag big time.  I think he THINKS he is smarter and better than he really is.  

 

This led to the McDaniels fiasco.

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10 minutes ago, Jaric said:

 

Like, if you're pitching giving Manning a role on the team to get his feet wet, sure.  

 

But this "coach in waiting" thing, hard pass.  

Why?


Do you really think Frank Reich....a middling qb in his career with no specialness ever attributed to him is better than Peyton Manning?  A guy who is so smart and dedicated to the game he completely changed how qbs now call a game and react at the line of scrimmage? A true once in a generation qb who had "special" written all over him?

 

 

Frank Reich is better than that?  Just because he was a middling asst coach for how many years now?  8 years of being average is better than 1 year of Manning possibly being special?

 

I am sorry, but I would shoot for special every time.

 

I would rather risk Luck's next 8 years with Peyton Manning with the chance that it might be a total disaster, but also the chance that it might be the greatest thing to ever happen to Colt football......rather than just to settle.

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6 minutes ago, Boiler_Colt said:

The simple answer is that Irsay overrated the attractiveness of this Job. Also,  Andrew Luck's playing status is absolutely a factor.

This is what I've been thinking.  Until Luck comes back and proves he's back to being himself, it's a huge factor.

 

As many have said, who they draft will be very telling.  If they take a QB with the 3rd pick, .....

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14 minutes ago, threeflight said:

I just want to get this straight.  


We hold onto Chuck WELL PAST his expiration date by a good 2-3 years.  Partly because of some bizarre loyalty that Irsay had to Chuck and lets face it, partly because Irsay could not find a better coach to take over.  But a sense of urgency is and was starting to be felt as Lucks best years are starting to feel.....wasted.

 

So we wait.

 

And wait.  Suffering.  But we wait for THE coach.

 

Then Chuck finally gets let go.  

 

And the best we could do was McDaniels.   I am not saying anything to knock him as a coach, because he very well might have been the best of the bunch, but lets face it, if he had been the OC for lets say the Houston Texans the past how many years with the same track record of success, yes he might have been coveted but he would not have nearly the mystique that he does now.  Being a Patriot and connected to Belly and Brady gave him all kinds of star power that he might not normally have had.  With what happened to him in Denver and St Louis?  I think he is good.....not great.

 

So Josh dumps us.  And here we are.  Entering a very crucial time of Lucks career after 6 long years of Chuck....and the best we can do apparently are Reich, Campbell, and Frazier?  

 

Really?

 

We waited 6 years for Lezlie Frazier??????????

 

Sorry, but at this time the team needs a coach with star power and huge credibility to bring back the fan base and to restore the shoe.  We went through this same scenario back in the late 90s and early 2000s and it wasn't until we got that star power coach in Dungy that things really took off.

 

I would be much happier in just biding our time, even going with an interim coach for now, rather than just hiring a "guy".  

 

If you can't find the right coach now?  Don't press your luck. Don't go all in until you have the nuts.  A Saban.  A Harbaugh.  A Peyton.  Hell I would even be open to bringing on Manning as an apprentice for a year under a teacher/coach, and then for Manning to take over a year from now, rather than just get a "guy".

 

We waited 6 years for this????

If you want attention and some glitzy name....hire a Kardasian.....I'll take a good coach over a guy with a name any day. The most popular guy doesn't mean its the right guy. Bill wasn't popular when he went to NE....Pederson wasn't some popular guy with SBs etc when he went to Philly. You want a hot name your just as likely to hire a Chip Kelly or Nick Saban or Butch Davis. It's not like SB winning coaches are just hanging around looking for jobs. You want to pay a bunch of draft picks for Sean Payton go right ahead...you want to spend 100 mill and 10 yrs to Jon Gruden be my guest...but there is nothing wrong with the group of guys we are talking to this week. They are well respected or have had good success of their own in this league. I also wouldn't consider Dungy star power coach. He got fired from his last job for not getting them over the hump....or not being successful enough...and it worked out just fine. Reich already has ties to us from his coaching days here with Peyton...who knows maybe he is the right guy to help Andrew....and maybe just maybe he is the right guy if you want Peyton back that will feel comfortable working in Indy with.

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For every one

3 minutes ago, dgambill said:

If you want attention and some glitzy name....hire a Kardasian.....I'll take a good coach over a guy with a name any day. The most popular guy doesn't mean its the right guy. Bill wasn't popular when he went to NE....Pederson wasn't some popular guy with SBs etc when he went to Philly. You want a hot name your just as likely to hire a Chip Kelly or Nick Saban or Butch Davis. It's not like SB winning coaches are just hanging around looking for jobs. You want to pay a bunch of draft picks for Sean Payton go right ahead...you want to spend 100 mill and 10 yrs to Jon Gruden be my guest...but there is nothing wrong with the group of guys we are talking to this week. They are well respected or have had good success of their own in this league. I also wouldn't consider Dungy star power coach. He got fired from his last job for not getting them over the hump....or not being successful enough...and it worked out just fine. Reich already has ties to us from his coaching days here with Peyton...who knows maybe he is the right guy to help Andrew....and maybe just maybe he is the right guy if you want Peyton back that will feel comfortable working in Indy with.

For every one 'what the hell is this hire"  Pederson there are 10 Leslie Fraziers.

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6 minutes ago, threeflight said:

Why?


Do you really think Frank Reich....a middling qb in his career with no specialness ever attributed to him is better than Peyton Manning?  A guy who is so smart and dedicated to the game he completely changed how qbs now call a game and react at the line of scrimmage? A true once in a generation qb who had "special" written all over him?

 

 

Frank Reich is better than that?  Just because he was a middling asst coach for how many years now?  8 years of being average is better than 1 year of Manning possibly being special?

 

I am sorry, but I would shoot for special every time.

 

I would rather risk Luck's next 8 years with Peyton Manning with the chance that it might be a total disaster, but also the chance that it might be the greatest thing to ever happen to Colt football......rather than just to settle.

 

Are we hiring a coach or a QB?  Manning being a better QB than Reich has nothing to do with how either would perform as a coach.  

 

Look, I also love Peyton Manning.  That doesn't mean I pick him to be a head coach over a guy who has actually coached before.

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22 minutes ago, Jaric said:

Why does everyone assume that because Manning was an awesome QB he's going to immediately be ready for a head coaching job?

 

I'd be nervous about making him an OC with zero coaching experience let alone a head coach.  Could he one day after some experience be a good coach?  Sure, he obviously knows football.  But there's so much more to being a head coach than knowing football.

I agree with you 100%.  Being a great player and being a great coach are two different things.  Most great coaches were mediocre players.  It is a completely different mindset.  I don't think Peyton wants to coach.  He is more of the type to run an organization.  Name a great player who has turned into a great coach?  I think we need to put that baby to bed and be realistic.

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I owned and trained race horses for 20 years.

 

One thing, beyond all, is key.

 

BREEDING TRUMPS EVERYTHING.

 

Yes, every once in a while you can breed a home bred mare to a $5 k claiming pacing Stallion and get a open or free for all horse.

 

But 99 times out of 100, if you want the true world class race horses?  You need to breed a world class mare with a world class stallion.

 

Sure, there will be duds, but % wise that is the best bet to getting the best of the best.

 

And sure, you can hire a  Frazier or a Reich.  And every once in a while you will find a Pederson.  But most of the time  You will hire a Pagano going that route.

 

If you want special, you cannot be afraid to pay for, and to go after it.  
 

Manning is special.

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2 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Although both of these opinions are refuted by several qualified sources. 

And also explicitly stated by several more. None of us know anything about what is going on. I just don't take what people say to the public as 100% fact. People absolutely should be concerned about Luck's status. To blindly hope that he's going to be just fine and better than ever is a tad naive when everything the Colts have said about him previously did not come to pass.

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2 minutes ago, Jaric said:

 

Are we hiring a coach or a QB?  Manning being a better QB than Reich has nothing to do with how either would perform as a coach.  

 

Look, I also love Peyton Manning.  That doesn't mean I pick him to be a head coach over a guy who has actually coached before.

That is why you give Manning the keys to the franchise and let him apprentice under a veteran coach until he is ready.

 

I mean lets face it, we aren't probably doing much next year anyway.  Ballard's plan is more like 2-3 years down the road to truly be SB ready.  Perfect timing for Manning.

 

I think the idea is brilliant.

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Just now, lennymoore24 said:

I agree with you 100%.  Being a great player and being a great coach are two different things.  Most great coaches were mediocre players.  It is a completely different mindset.  I don't think Peyton wants to coach.  He is more of the type to run an organization.  Name a great player who has turned into a great coach?  I think we need to put that baby to bed and be realistic.

 

Don't get me wrong, if he decided he wanted to try coaching, I'd be completely on board for finding a role to get his feet wet.  (Quality Control keeps popping in to my head although not sure why)

 

However, I've also not seen anything that leads me to believe he wants to be an NFL coach.  What this seems like to me, is fans wanting to relive the Manning glory days, and assuming that Manning the coach would be as awesome as Manning the QB.

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Just now, threeflight said:

For every one

For every one Pederson there, are 10 Leslie Fraziers.

No....there is only one Leslie Frazier...and he is a good coach too. He might not be my preference for this particular team but he knows what he is doing. In fact most NFL coaches do...the reasons for their success varies...but most of the time it has to do with talent meeting opportunity....not so much x and o. You think there is only one good coach in the league since Belichick has led his team to like half the AFC championships and SBs?? When the right players and talent line up with the right coach and situation...greatness can happen. To me even a great coach can't make every situation work.....we have a good situation here...but it will take the right coach with the right attributes to take us to the top. Dungy wasn't any more talented necessarily than a lot of other coaches...but what he was teaching and doing with the team clicked. It didn't get him over the top in TB...but when it came to working with Peyton and company it clicked. He went from fired coach to SB champion. He didn't just start being a great coach when he got here he was that all along. Those guys on our list are there for a reason...they have attributes that could make them a great coach...its just about matching up the right one to fit us and allow that greatness to be manifested.

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5 minutes ago, lennymoore24 said:

I agree with you 100%.  Being a great player and being a great coach are two different things.  Most great coaches were mediocre players.  It is a completely different mindset.  I don't think Peyton wants to coach.  He is more of the type to run an organization.  Name a great player who has turned into a great coach?  I think we need to put that baby to bed and be realistic.

Not only that Peyton has said quite a few times he is not interested in coaching in the NFL. Why should he want to?

Maybe a GM or a part owner I could see but coaching? IMO, no way.

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4 minutes ago, lennymoore24 said:

I agree with you 100%.  Being a great player and being a great coach are two different things.  Most great coaches were mediocre players.  It is a completely different mindset.  I don't think Peyton wants to coach.  He is more of the type to run an organization.  Name a great player who has turned into a great coach?  I think we need to put that baby to bed and be realistic.

This is where I just have to laugh...and laugh and laugh.

 

Sure, there are tons of great ATHLETIC football players with the IQ of a squid that would be terrible coaches.  

 

The difference is Manning was not great because of his athletic ability.  He was great in spite of not having much athletic ability whatsoever.  He is an extremely sharp, high IQ, driven, RESPECTED man.  THAT is what made him great as a qb.

 

And last I knew, that is what makes great coaches great.  Not how much you can bench press or how fast you can run.

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1 minute ago, threeflight said:

That is why you give Manning the keys to the franchise and let him apprentice under a veteran coach until he is ready.

 

I mean lets face it, we aren't probably doing much next year anyway.  Ballard's plan is more like 2-3 years down the road to truly be SB ready.  Perfect timing for Manning.

 

I think the idea is brilliant.

 

Where are you going to find a head coach willing to be a placeholder and babysit a legend with zero experience at your job which he will eventually take?

 

How long do you think it would take before he's ready to run a team without training wheels?

 

Again, I also love Peyton Manning, but assuming he can go from zero experience to Superbowl winning head coach in 2-3 is a pipe dream.

 

I'm sorry, but he's not gonna ride in on a white horse and save us.  We're gonna have to figure this out on our own.

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30 minutes ago, threeflight said:

Bringing in Manning as an apprentice coach would be an all time home run imo. It would invigorate the fan base to no end. Let him learn for a year under a veteran coach and then give him the reigns.  

 

what experienced HC would want to come here for one year to teach an apprentice how to take over his job in 12 months?

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7 minutes ago, threeflight said:

I owned and trained race horses for 20 years.

 

One thing, beyond all, is key.

 

BREEDING TRUMPS EVERYTHING.

 

Yes, every once in a while you can breed a home bred mare to a $5 k claiming pacing Stallion and get a open or free for all horse.

 

But 99 times out of 100, if you want the true world class race horses?  You need to breed a world class mare with a world class stallion.

 

Sure, there will be duds, but % wise that is the best bet to getting the best of the best.

 

And sure, you can hire a  Frazier or a Reich.  And every once in a while you will find a Pederson.  But most of the time  You will hire a Pagano going that route.

 

If you want special, you cannot be afraid to pay for, and to go after it.  
 

Manning is special.

You cant force feed someone who don't want to be eaten.

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1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

what experienced HC would want to come here for one year to teach an apprentice how to take over his job in 12 months?

Look, I don't even know if Manning would be interested.  No idea.

 

The original point of the thread was, do not wait 6 years with Pagano, and waste any more of Lucks years, with coaches like Frazier or Reich.  Either go for special and think outside of the box, or wait until you TRULY have the guy. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, threeflight said:

I think Ballard has potential to be  a really good GM.  He is a smart guy.

 

But..........I am sensing a weakness in him.  He is secretly a very cocky guy.  He likes to humble brag big time.  I think he THINKS he is smarter and better than he really is.  

 

This led to the McDaniels fiasco.

 

Every GM has a weakness. That GM's conviction and self-belief is also held against him when their moves do not work. Polian had it, Grigson had it, Ballard has it. Let us let them do their job and see what happens on the field over time.

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Just now, threeflight said:

Look, I don't even know if Manning would be interested.  No idea.

 

The original point of the thread was, do not wait 6 years with Pagano, and waste any more of Lucks years, with coaches like Frazier or Reich.  Either go for special and think outside of the box, or wait until you TRULY have the guy. 

 

 

 

but what makes you think Manning wcould be THE guy over these other coaches who have previous coaching experience.  the greatest players don't always make the best coaches.  How many guys are in the HOF as both player and coach?

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4 minutes ago, threeflight said:

I owned and trained race horses for 20 years.

 

One thing, beyond all, is key.

 

BREEDING TRUMPS EVERYTHING.

 

Yes, every once in a while you can breed a home bred mare to a $5 k claiming pacing Stallion and get a open or free for all horse.

 

But 99 times out of 100, if you want the true world class race horses?  You need to breed a world class mare with a world class stallion.

 

Sure, there will be duds, but % wise that is the best bet to getting the best of the best.

 

And sure, you can hire a  Frazier or a Reich.  And every once in a while you will find a Pederson.  But most of the time  You will hire a Pagano going that route.

 

If you want special, you cannot be afraid to pay for, and to go after it.  
 

Manning is special.

 

To lump Reich with Frazier is a HUGE mistake. He's closer to the mold of Pederson and Philly fans weren't that excited about his hire. Yes Manning is special but does he even WANT to coach without any type of experience to groom for the job?

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Right now they are interviewing guys that they never even interviewed in the first place.  

 

You don't think that is odd?

 

I do.  So Ballards first time around, he saw 5 or 6 guys that he considered HC worthy.  And now this time around, those other 4 or 5 guys that you interviewed before aren't worth it?  I realize a couple of them got hired, but why weren't Frazier and Reich interviewed last month if they were so great?

 

I will tell you why.  Because Ballard did not see special in them.  So to settle for them now?

 

It's called reachinggggggggggggg.

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2 minutes ago, threeflight said:

Look, I don't even know if Manning would be interested.  No idea.

 

The original point of the thread was, do not wait 6 years with Pagano, and waste any more of Lucks years, with coaches like Frazier or Reich.  Either go for special and think outside of the box, or wait until you TRULY have the guy. 

 

 

So???

Is the point to not wait??? or to wait???

So confusing...

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4 minutes ago, threeflight said:

I owned and trained race horses for 20 years.

 

One thing, beyond all, is key.

 

BREEDING TRUMPS EVERYTHING.

 

Yes, every once in a while you can breed a home bred mare to a $5 k claiming pacing Stallion and get a open or free for all horse.

 

But 99 times out of 100, if you want the true world class race horses?  You need to breed a world class mare with a world class stallion.

 

Sure, there will be duds, but % wise that is the best bet to getting the best of the best.

 

And sure, you can hire a  Frazier or a Reich.  And every once in a while you will find a Pederson.  But most of the time  You will hire a Pagano going that route.

 

If you want special, you cannot be afraid to pay for, and to go after it.  
 

Manning is special.

What does physical talent have to do with coaching??? There is no correlation to being born with gifts and coaching...something that is done through communication, leadership, experience, and intelligence. You aren't born with any of those things...they are achieved and accumulated through life experience, hard work, study, training, and education. There are no natural born leaders...at least in my opinion. If Peyton Manning wants to be a coach and successful he may very well achieve greatness...but it wasn't because he was born with something...it would be because of all the preparation, study, drive, experience, and education he has obtained around the game....but he still has things to learn about coaching and relaying that to others. Plus does he have the same desire to be a great coach and put in the same time and effort that led him to be a great player? I'd say no as of right now or he would be doing it. What Frank maybe lacked in talent in becoming a great player he doesn't need to necessarily become a great coach or leader of men. He doesn't need to be born 6'5 with a rocket arm to be a great coach...he simply needs to obtain all those attributes I listed before....and none of those are obtained because he was born with the name Reich and not Manning. If he obtains them through hard work and dedication to the craft as an assistant...then that is all that matters...and if he has all those things...he may still not win us a championship if we don't give him the talent necessary...but he will be the right guy to hire. I will let Ballard decide if he has the qualities necessary...from my vantage point it sure appears so.

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