Offensive Line, What am I missing

[JMichael557]

n my opinion next year we have the following returning that I would be willing to keep

Tackle AC

Guard, Mewhort, Haig, Good

Center Kelley, Present backup (forgot his name).

We need a Tackle. I am not comfortable relying on Good or Haig to play that position.

As I understand it there are no Tackles really available as FA, but there are guards we could sign.

I would say that Nelson and Williams are equal as players. Why would we take the guard over the Tackle.

Bottom Line I say that we draft Williams ahead of Nelson if he is healthy.

[jameszeigler834]

5 minutes ago, JMichael557 said:

n my opinion next year we have the following returning that I would be willing to keep

Tackle AC

Guard, Mewhort, Haig, Good

Center Kelley, Present backup (forgot his name).

We need a Tackle. I am not comfortable relying on Good or Haig to play that position.

As I understand it there are no Tackles really available as FA, but there are guards we could sign.

I would say that Nelson and Williams are equal as players. Why would we take the guard over the Tackle.

Bottom Line I say that we draft Williams ahead of Nelson if he is healthy.

Nelson is the best lineman in this draft.

[richard pallo]

I think what you're missing is that Mewhort might not be back and if he does return he can not be counted on to be the long term answer at either guard spot.  Haag has struggled as a starter.  Good is fine at RT but can he stay healthy.  Clark will probably not be on the roster next year.  We really need two new guards.  Fortunately there are a few good ones that should be available in FA and I am expecting Ballard to sign at least one of them.  Hopefully two.  I fully expect Ballard to trade back in this draft.  He should garner quite a few extra picks and I expect we will draft a guard and a tackle in the mix.  I think the OL is going to get a big makeover in the offseason. 

[jbaron04]

Nelson is the way to go, mewhort hasn't bin healthy in years, we need to take the best linemen in the draft regardless of position which is nelson 

[jbaron04]

15 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I think what you're missing is that Mewhort might not be back and if he does return he can not be counted on to be the long term answer at either guard spot.  Haag has struggled as a starter.  Good is fine at RT but can he stay healthy.  Clark will probably not be on the roster next year.  We really need two new guards.  Fortunately there are a few good ones that should be available in FA and I am expecting Ballard to sign at least one of them.  Hopefully two.  I fully expect Ballard to trade back in this draft.  He should garner quite a few extra picks and I expect we will draft a guard and a tackle in the mix.  I think the OL is going to get a big makeover in the offseason. 

I agree, we need to completely remake O-line, let kelly stay. AC for the time being. Draft nelson. Sign top Fa guard don't pay mewhort. Keep good as filler. then 2019 look for Lt Ac take pay cut move to Rt or cut. We need to really focus 75% of our picks and money to fix this line 

[IrishColt22]

Will we ever stop talking about our OL. This has just gone on for so long. I think we have to finally address it this year and that starts with taking the best OL man which is Nelson regardless if it's at 3 or a trade back (can't be too far back or he will be gone). AC,Nelson, Kelly is a nice start. In the 2nd if they are still there one of Price or Hernandez to put the other side of Kelly and let Clark/Haeg/Goode fight it out for RT. A second option for the right would to be sign Pugh put him at RG, maybe draft Braden Smith and put him in the mix to fight it out for RT. Then get an ILB to round off the first 3 rounds (jefferson, Smith, Jewel) if they last.

[Nesjan3]

Mewhort might retire, if he does not i dont see Ballard resigning him unless its to a cheap contract, i personally think RT can be filled by Good/Haeg, This Nelson guy sounds like the best guard coming out of the draft in a LONG time, my only concern would be taking a guard with a top 5 pick, this is something GMs tend to avoid, we may be able to trade back and still get him. Im not a fan of AC if we can bring in some competition for LT and find someone to beat him out i would like him out of the starting lineup. Kelly and Person at C...that leaves another guard spot.

So i have AC/Competition///LG open///Kelly/person///Nelson///Good/Haeg

[ColtsBlitz]

We need to lay off AC a bit. He’s been playing at a high level really all year. There was some stat where he’s just allowed 28 total pressures and like 3 sacks. He’s gone up against Campbell twice, Von Miller, and Chandler Jones. He may not be a Tyron Smith or Joe Thomas, but he’s up there, our best right now. 

 

Keep Castanzo, draft Nelson, possibly trade up for a 2nd lineman later in the draft if there’s a quality player at a spot we could afford to spend some capital on. Just my opinion, but protect Luck for 4 quarters per game, win at least 11 games

[Jackie Daytona]

2 hours ago, jbaron04 said:

I agree, we need to completely remake O-line, let kelly stay. AC for the time being. Draft nelson. Sign top Fa guard don't pay mewhort. Keep good as filler. then 2019 look for Lt Ac take pay cut move to Rt or cut. We need to really focus 75% of our picks and money to fix this line 

we need to spend 5 or more picks in the draft this year, AND 67,423,764 in cap space on the Oline?!?!  Surely you just threw a random percentage out there man.....  that would be like 12 new guys on the line.....   if you were to sign the top RT scheduled to be a FA at 2 times his 2017 cap hit, that's approx. 4.4M, top tier LG available 8 - 16M, LT 10 - 20M.  at the highest insane we don't care about overpaying numbers, that's 3 new starters basically, at 40.4M  nowhere near 75%  and these guys are worth nowhere near that much, this years FA OL pretty much sucks.  on top of that, you want 5 Rookies on the OL?  that's 8 new dudes, and still under 75% of both resources combined.... lol

[Defjamz26]

Don’t think tackle is the biggest issue. It’s the guard. Fully healthy, Mewhort still wasn’t great. He was a guy with all the measureables for the position but never quite grabbed the brass ring. Add in the injury history that is highlighted by a degenerative knee issue, and it’s unlikely. I won’t talk about Vujnovich because there has never been another player that we all have agreed is utter garbage.

 

Draft a guard and sign one. Bring In a late round tackle for competition and have a major camp battle between Good, Haeg, Clark, and a rookie for RT.

[DarkHorse]

If you want immediate results you sign 2 veteran free agent guards such as Norwell and Pugh.  Let Mewhort walk.  We have the cap space use it on the line.  If we can get these two players or someone of there caliber we don't have to use our first round pick on a guard.  As good as Nelson is and I do want him I'd rather spend that pick on Bradley Chubb, as long as we get two good guards in free agency. Rookies take time to devolp.  We need results now. 

[richard pallo]

49 minutes ago, ColtsBlitz said:

We need to lay off AC a bit. He’s been playing at a high level really all year. There was some stat where he’s just allowed 28 total pressures and like 3 sacks. He’s gone up against Campbell twice, Von Miller, and Chandler Jones. He may not be a Tyron Smith or Joe Thomas, but he’s up there, our best right now. 

 

Keep Castanzo, draft Nelson, possibly trade up for a 2nd lineman later in the draft if there’s a quality player at a spot we could afford to spend some capital on. Just my opinion, but protect Luck for 4 quarters per game, win at least 11 games

I totally agree with you on AC.  He has ben playing at a high level and he is solid in the run game too.  I don't understand all the griping about him.  He's our best OL and many teams would love to have him on their left side. 

[Track Guy]

Good and Haeg are both tackles, not guards. Basically they're both good backup right tackles, or below average starters at the position. 

 

Basically it's this:

 

LT: Anthony Castonzo isn't a superstar, but he's decent at the hardest position on the O-line. Being a decent left tackle is more valuable than a decent anything else - although center is actually close imo. 

 

RT: Denzel Good and Joe Haeg are good depth guys or weak starters. 

 

Center: Ryan Kelly is a promising young player who made an immediate difference for us as a rookie. Year 2 has been difficult for him due to being banged up and having regressed guard play, particularly on his left.

 

Guard: Jack Mewhort was good when healthy, but there are serious concerns as to whether that'll really ever happen again. Nobody else is even close to average for a starter in the NFL imo. 

[JMichael557]

I guess I just do not see how Nelson a guard is better than Williams a Tackle. McShay for what is worth has Williams as the best OL at 10 and Nelson at 14. 

[will426]

Every position needs help on the line other than Left tackle..mewhort is injure prone was good at first then fell off after injuries..Kelly good when healthy(starting to become a reoccurring thing)..haeg is weak..Good isn’t good enough to stay healthy and play..Clark who in he world knows what his deal is..other than AC and maybe kelly  no1 on this line should be safe 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

If you want immediate results you sign 2 veteran free agent guards such as Norwell and Pugh.  Let Mewhort walk.  We have the cap space use it on the line.  If we can get these two players or someone of there caliber we don't have to use our first round pick on a guard.  As good as Nelson is and I do want him I'd rather spend that pick on Bradley Chubb, as long as we get two good guards in free agency. Rookies take time to devolp.  We need results now. 

 

All of this. 

[DarkHorse]

20 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

All of this. 

Thank you

[a06cc]

AC sucks! He’s finally started playing because of trade rumors. We need to look at the spot after his contract is up.

[Defjamz26]

9 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

If you want immediate results you sign 2 veteran free agent guards such as Norwell and Pugh.  Let Mewhort walk.  We have the cap space use it on the line.  If we can get these two players or someone of there caliber we don't have to use our first round pick on a guard.  As good as Nelson is and I do want him I'd rather spend that pick on Bradley Chubb, as long as we get two good guards in free agency. Rookies take time to devolp.  We need results now. 

I’d sign one but Nelson is going to be cheaper and more than likely better than whoever else we could sign. I think it’s smarter to only sign one guard and draft Nelson. It’ll pay off long term. Nelson won’t need any time to develop. Chubb will.

[JMichael557]

Nelson will not be cheaper. There is a salary wage scale for Rookies. Whoever we draft will get paid the same which is why you normally do not draft a guard. 

[ponyboy]

4 minutes ago, JMichael557 said:

Nelson will not be cheaper. There is a salary wage scale for Rookies. Whoever we draft will get paid the same which is why you normally do not draft a guard. 

 

He was referring to Nelson being cheaper compared to a FA signing (Norwell and/or Pugh).  With the current CBA, a rookie contract will always be significantly cheaper than any top-FA signing for at least 4 years, regardless of position.

[Indeee]

What's also missing here is that we need a great OLINE COACH as well. I think a lot of the problem is the coaching just as much as lack of talent

[onebad150]

I think you all are missing the most important need for the offensive line to improve....... COACHING. Since Philbin was hired he has had 50+ potential lineman to "coach up" and we have had over 100 sacks in last two seasons. Our star quarter back knocked out and I will be surprised if Brisset make it 3 more games. Let's getting a new coach that has a successful history, new blocking scheme and let him, Ballard and new HC decide what they need.

[Smonroe]

3 hours ago, a06cc said:

AC sucks! He’s finally started playing because of trade rumors. We need to look at the spot after his contract is up.

 

No.  He’s no all pro.  But he’s far from ‘suck’.  

[PeterBowman]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

 

No.  He’s no all pro.  But he’s far from ‘suck’.  

he's not "elite", but he's still very good.

[Defjamz26]

2 hours ago, JMichael557 said:

Nelson will not be cheaper. There is a salary wage scale for Rookies. Whoever we draft will get paid the same which is why you normally do not draft a guard. 

Cheaper than a guard from FA is what I was referring too. He’s cheaper and after a year or so he’ll be better than most guards in the league anyways. And if the Colts can trade down from 3 to get him, he’ll earn them additional picks.

[BOTT]

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

I’d sign one but Nelson is going to be cheaper and more than likely better than whoever else we could sign. I think it’s smarter to only sign one guard and draft Nelson. It’ll pay off long term. Nelson won’t need any time to develop. Chubb will.

He won't need time to develop?  You really believe that?

[Jdubu]

2 hours ago, onebad150 said:

I think you all are missing the most important need for the offensive line to improve....... COACHING. Since Philbin was hired he has had 50+ potential lineman to "coach up" and we have had over 100 sacks in last two seasons. Our star quarter back knocked out and I will be surprised if Brisset make it 3 more games. Let's getting a new coach that has a successful history, new blocking scheme and let him, Ballard and new HC decide what they need.

Up until he got to Indy, Philbin was thought of very highly around the league as a great oline coach, bad head coach. He has not succeeded here. The questions that only team evaluators would know, is it:

 

1. The oline coach

2. The quality of the players

3. The scheme from Chud

4. HC directives

5. Just horrible injuries and Bad luck

 

remember that once upon a time, Mudd was considered Superman and then we had some issues with the line soon after Tarik Glenn retired and people then wanted his head, which eventually they were given it. I truly believe if this was purely a oline coaching issue, Philbin wouldn’t have made it through Ballard’s initial screening of coaches this season but we will soon see what happens to the staff after the last game. I would be shocked to see any of them return, except maybe the ST coach. 

[Jdubu]

What I would do is:

 

1. sign at at least one top FA guard

2. Trade down no further than 10th and get some more picks

3. Take the best gaurd, tackle, ILB, pass rusher or CB that is left.

 

There will be some top flight talent left at 10 or above. I’d even take a WR if we got great value for it. The extra picks will come in handy for oline revamp and LB spots. Maybe even a chance for a second 1st rounder next season if we play it right. 

[Defjamz26]

28 minutes ago, BOTT said:

He won't need time to develop?  You really believe that?

He’s not going to be a developmental pick. All the scouts are in agreement that he’s a plug and play starter at guard who will be All-pro early in his career. Sure he’ll learn but he’s already a polished lineman, which is why he is being hyped so high.

[WERC82]

Guard is what we need more than anything else offensively so we can run the ball 30 times a game.Poor guard play makes playing tackle a lot harder. Keep the ball out of the other team's hands, keep our defense fresh and make the opponent keep 7 in the box. With a real threatening running game a descent QB looks above average and can get you 10 plus wins. A team that can consistently rush the ball for over 100 will have more WR's open all over the field more often.    

[NewColtsFan]

13 hours ago, Track Guy said:

Good and Haeg are both tackles, not guards. Basically they're both good backup right tackles, or below average starters at the position. 

 

Basically it's this:

 

LT: Anthony Castonzo isn't a superstar, but he's decent at the hardest position on the O-line. Being a decent left tackle is more valuable than a decent anything else - although center is actually close imo. 

 

RT: Denzel Good and Joe Haeg are good depth guys or weak starters. 

 

Center: Ryan Kelly is a promising young player who made an immediate difference for us as a rookie. Year 2 has been difficult for him due to being banged up and having regressed guard play, particularly on his left.

 

Guard: Jack Mewhort was good when healthy, but there are serious concerns as to whether that'll really ever happen again. Nobody else is even close to average for a starter in the NFL imo. 

 

Regarding Castanzo.....

 

For what it's worth,  a week or so ago,  PFF put out their season long grades....     Castanzo was listed as the 12th best tackle in all of football and the 17th best overall lineman.       Seriously.    I think the numbers were right around zero sacks,  3-4 hits allowed and a couple of dozen pressures.      That's it.

 

This week,  Colts.com has a story about Castanzo where Ballard says he's playing the best football of his career.

 

This is year 7 for AC...     I think he's finally putting it altogether....     I hope the fan base figures this out soon,  but this website has a long history of being several years behind the times on players.     Once an opinion is formed,  it's hard to change the minds of many here.

[Dingus McGirt]

First step to "fixing" any position on this team?   Replace the practice facility surface. 

[Valpo2004]

17 hours ago, JMichael557 said:

n my opinion next year we have the following returning that I would be willing to keep

Tackle AC

Guard, Mewhort, Haig, Good

Center Kelley, Present backup (forgot his name).

We need a Tackle. I am not comfortable relying on Good or Haig to play that position.

As I understand it there are no Tackles really available as FA, but there are guards we could sign.

I would say that Nelson and Williams are equal as players. Why would we take the guard over the Tackle.

Bottom Line I say that we draft Williams ahead of Nelson if he is healthy.

 

A lot wrong with this.

 

#1 No guarantees Mewhort is here.  His contract is up and his knees are in question.  He may retire.  We may just refuse to re-sign him.  

 

Second Connor Williams is dropping in the draft.  Walterfootball.com whom I've found to be fairly reliable on these things has talked with some NFL executives and they've said that they think the media is overhyping Williams and they view him as only a mid-round pick.

[BOTT]

35 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

He’s not going to be a developmental pick. All the scouts are in agreement that he’s a plug and play starter at guard who will be All-pro early in his career. Sure he’ll learn but he’s already a polished lineman, which is why he is being hyped so high.

Well, I think we have all heard that before and it not turning out to be true. 

[Superman]

5 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

I’d sign one but Nelson is going to be cheaper and more than likely better than whoever else we could sign. I think it’s smarter to only sign one guard and draft Nelson. It’ll pay off long term. Nelson won’t need any time to develop. Chubb will.

 

This illustrates the folly of needs-based drafting. You're prioritizing 2018 over the long term health of the roster. There is an obvious positional value advantage to drafting an edge rusher in the top five vs a guard in the top five.

 

There's the matter of value above replacement -- the best edge rusher prospect vs the 5th best prospect is a bigger difference than the best OL prospect vs the 5th best OL prospect. 

 

You can only get an elite pass rusher in the draft. Good OL hit free agency every year.

 

My stance on this matter isn't about Nelson vs Chubb. I haven't watched enough of either to have an opinion there. My point is that, in principle, when you're picking in the top five, you want to come away with a prospect that you would otherwise not have a shot at, and that you can't replace. 

 

As far as it being cheaper, if we come out of free agency having spent $25m on two offensive linemen, and don't do anything else, I'll be satisfied. It's time to bite the bullet and throw serious resources at the OL. 

[Colts_Fan12]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This illustrates the folly of needs-based drafting. You're prioritizing 2018 over the long term health of the roster. There is an obvious positional value advantage to drafting an edge rusher in the top five vs a guard in the top five.

 

There's the matter of value above replacement -- the best edge rusher prospect vs the 5th best prospect is a bigger difference than the best OL prospect vs the 5th best OL prospect. 

 

You can only get an elite pass rusher in the draft. Good OL hit free agency every year.

 

My stance on this matter isn't about Nelson vs Chubb. I haven't watched enough of either to have an opinion there. My point is that, in principle, when you're picking in the top five, you want to come away with a prospect that you would otherwise not have a shot at, and that you can't replace. 

 

As far as it being cheaper, if we come out of free agency having spent $25m on two offensive linemen, and don't do anything else, I'll be satisfied. It's time to bite the bullet and throw serious resources at the OL. 

But taking Chubb is drafting based on need as well some think he's a guy for a 4-3 DE position so getting him just cause he was a good pass rusher in college is a bad idea. He's also don't seem to be a can't miss rusher like other years he just happens to be the best available. I'd rather take a guard then reach for a edge or I'd even take a CB or S before I took Chubb.

[a06cc]

4 hours ago, Smonroe said:

 

No.  He’s no all pro.  But he’s far from ‘suck’.  

We all have our opinions. I’m going to stick by what I said. After he heard he may be up for trade is when he started doing his job.

[MasterCrief]

15 hours ago, richard pallo said:

I totally agree with you on AC.  He has ben playing at a high level and he is solid in the run game too.  I don't understand all the griping about him.  He's our best OL and many teams would love to have him on their left side. 

Agreed, but just to nitpick, with what I bolded, you are underselling Castonzo big time. The last time I checked, PFF had him as the second best run blocking tackle in the entire league. That's not "solid," that's elite.

[OLD FAN MAN]

need upgrades at every position except center where we also have depth, i would prefer proven free agents over draft picks for the o-line as draft picks take time to develop on the line, we need a line asap cant wait for picks to develop at these spots, use our picks for positions that have a chance of starting on day one