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1 minute ago, bluebombers87 said:

Care to refute with any well thought out arguments that counter my above statements or are you just here to spread your infinite wisdom on us lowly Colts fans?

I just don’t think Irsay can risk the fan backlash by bringing Chuck back.  NFL is already in a bit of a PR pickle.  I can see a lot of fans leaving Lucas Oil & going to Banker’s Life.  Yeah,  Chuck keeps his players motivated in that they don’t quit playing but I don’t think that’s enough to bring him back. And if it is, then we’ve regressed back to being the early 90’s Colts...  Ok with being average or below average.  

 

The best coaches are teachers.  Watch tape of Belichick on the sideline.  He’s always teaching. Always preparing & making adjustments.  Chuck hasn’t shown me 1 sign that he is a great football mind & teacher.  And his coordinators are pedestrian.  So who’s gonna get the most out of our players?  If Chuck is gonna be a “figurehead” HC then he needs creative teachers as coordinators.  

 

Yet his guys have gotten us blown out multiple times & our offensive game plans have been flat out OFFENSIVE to watch...  It’s time to clean house and get the right coaching staff in here because Chuck had ridden Luck’s coattails and the worse division in football as far as he could.  Now we’re seeing Chuck for what he truly is...  A great man with a great heart that is a below average HC at the NFL level.  I do think he’d make a great college coach though.

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6 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I just don’t think Irsay can risk the fan backlash by bringing Chuck back.

 

While I am in the camp that thinks that it is past time for Pagano to go, if Irsay is making decisions based on potential fan backlash, then we, as Colts fans, have much bigger problems than Pagano.  Irsay's decisions should be based on what he thinks is best for the team, not on what the fans (myself included) think.

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1 minute ago, JCPatriot said:

 

While I am in the camp that thinks that it is past time for Pagano to go, if Irsay is making decisions based on potential fan backlash, then we, as Colts fans, have much bigger problems than Pagano.  Irsay's decisions should be based on what he thinks is best for the team, not on what the fans (myself included) think.

I think that’s how Irsay was thinking last year when he brought Chuck back.  The fans pay the bills. So he needs to be trying to make them happy.  And if he still thinks that Chuck is the answer, then it may be time to question Irsay’s competence. The MAJORITY of his fan base has seen enough even if he hasn’t.  And another season of a half empty stadium and fans booing and leaving early in the 4th quarter should be unacceptable. Much more unacceptable than firing Chuck and his staff (when most people in the world think they have earned those walking papers anyway).

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3 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I just don’t think Irsay can risk the fan backlash by bringing Chuck back.  NFL is already in a bit of a PR pickle.  I can see a lot of fans leaving Lucas Oil & going to Banker’s Life.  Yeah,  Chuck keeps his players motivated in that they don’t quit playing but I don’t think that’s enough to bring him back. And if it is, then we’ve regressed back to being the early 90’s Colts...  Ok with being average or below average.  

 

The best coaches are teachers.  Watch tape of Belichick on the sideline.  He’s always teaching. Always preparing & making adjustments.  Chuck hasn’t shown me 1 sign that he is a great football mind & teacher.  And his coordinators are pedestrian.  So who’s gonna get the most out of our players?  If Chuck is gonna be a “figurehead” HC then he needs creative teachers as coordinators.  

 

Yet his guys have gotten us blown out multiple times & our offensive game plans have been flat out OFFENSIVE to watch...  It’s time to clean house and get the right coaching staff in here because Chuck had ridden Luck’s coattails and the worse division in football as far as he could.  Now we’re seeing Chuck for what he truly is...  A great man with a great heart that is a below average HC at the NFL level.  I do think he’d make a great college coach though.

Appreciate the response.

 

As for the backlash, winning cures all. And  despite the dire situation we are a solid QB (ok above average QB away from winning enough games this season to flip a winning schedule.

 

And how in the world can you deduce that about BB from watching games? The man is a sphinx. He talks to players. That’s all we can tell. At any rate you’re right. He’s a great coach, probably one of the greatest. But hes great for a lot of reasons. Including a phenomenal front office. The man always has talent to work with.

 

I think youve fallen into into the trap that coaching is equal to playing Madden. Coaching gets your players to the game. You can talk about adjustments but we don’t see the locker room at half time. 

 

The overall points I made were that we have 31 players on IR, one of which is our franchise QB. Yea we’ve been blown out and those suck to watch. But we’ve also hung in against much much better teams only to collapse. That to me shows a young team with little experience. That we were even in those games is a miracle. 

 

Also so for those that remember, we had just as much anger (maybe not as much as this) directed at Dungy until we won a Super Bowl.

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4 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

The fans pay the bills. So he needs to be trying to make them happy.

 

If that is how Irsay is making decisions, then I am VERY worried about the future of this team.  When the owner starts just doing what he thinks the fans want to see despite his better judgment, well, look to the Jets for how that turns out.

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29 minutes ago, JCPatriot said:

 

If that is how Irsay is making decisions, then I am VERY worried about the future of this team.  When the owner starts just doing what he thinks the fans want to see despite his better judgment, well, look to the Jets for how that turns out.

When you’ve hired Grigson & Chuck. Then refused to admit your mistake & doubled down & retained Grigson & Chuck.  Then did it again by retaining Chuck again, maybe he needs to start listening to the fans or whomever because maybe just maybe he’s not making the most sound decisions at this time and his judgment isn’t better...

 

And I don’t understand how you aren’t worried about the future of this team watching incompetent gameplans, poor drafts, getting blown out a couple times a year.  So us sticking to that same status quo doesn’t worry you???  You’ve seen enough from Chuck to believe that he, Chud, & Monachino will bring us a Super Bowl?  I don’t. 

 

Bringing in Ballard seems like a step in the right direction. But why tie his hands with Chuck & his staff?  If the plan was to let Chuck guide us to a top 5 pick and then dump him then I stand corrected.

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47 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

Appreciate the response.

 

As for the backlash, winning cures all. And  despite the dire situation we are a solid QB (ok above average QB away from winning enough games this season to flip a winning schedule.

 

And how in the world can you deduce that about BB from watching games? The man is a sphinx. He talks to players. That’s all we can tell. At any rate you’re right. He’s a great coach, probably one of the greatest. But hes great for a lot of reasons. Including a phenomenal front office. The man always has talent to work with.

 

I think youve fallen into into the trap that coaching is equal to playing Madden. Coaching gets your players to the game. You can talk about adjustments but we don’t see the locker room at half time. 

 

The overall points I made were that we have 31 players on IR, one of which is our franchise QB. Yea we’ve been blown out and those suck to watch. But we’ve also hung in against much much better teams only to collapse. That to me shows a young team with little experience. That we were even in those games is a miracle. 

 

Also so for those that remember, we had just as much anger (maybe not as much as this) directed at Dungy until we won a Super Bowl.

I never had as much anger for Dungy.  Dungy was a teacher. I had more anger for Polian for primarily building half a team & forcing Dungy to work with scraps or constantly coach up & get the most out of lesser talent.  Every linebacker that got good we let walk.  

 

And when I was referring to Belichick, I was talking about hearing him mic’d up instructing his players on the sideline.  It’s not as much motivation but more of what to look for or how to play a certain look.  That’s teaching. That’s x’s & o’s stuff.  

 

And the Patriots draft low every year.  So it’s not ALL talent. It’s coaching. They improve guys.  They educate them.  Then they empower them.  Half of the Patriots players you’ve never heard of or where they came from.  But the Patriots put their players in the best positions to succeed and get the most out of them.  I can’t say the same for us.

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5 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I never had as much anger for Dungy.  Dungy was a teacher. I had more anger for Polian for primarily building half a team & forcing Dungy to work with scraps or constantly coach up & get the most out of lesser talent.  Every linebacker that got good we let walk.  

 

And and when I was referring to Belichick, I’m talking about hearing him mic’d up instructing his players on the sideline.  It’s not as much motivation but more of what to look for or how to play a certain look.  That’s teaching. That’s x’s & o’s stuff.  

 

And the Patriots draft low every year.  So it’s not ALL talent. It’s coaching. They improve guys.  They educate the.   Then they empower them.  Half of the Patriots players you’ve never heard of or where they came from.  But the Patriots put their players in the best positions to succeed and get the most out of them.  I can’t say the same for us.

Yea. Belichick is a great coach. Expecting us to be able to replicate that is unrealistic.

 

And for the record you do see Pagano coaching his players on the sidelines. Mostly when they trot off.

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17 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

And I don’t understand how you aren’t worried about the future of this team watching incompetent gameplans, poor drafts, getting blown out a couple times a year.  So us sticking to that same status quo doesn’t worry you???

 

Of course it worries me.  As I initially stated, I am in the camp that thinks that Pagano needs to go.  I think that is overdue.  I was opposed to bringing him back for this season.  However, if Irsay starts making decisions of this nature based on potential fan backlash, then I am much more worried about that.  If Pagano is fired, it should be because either:

 

1.  Irsay believes that retaining Pagano is not what is best for the future of the Colts.

 

or

 

2.  Irsay puts the choice of head coach in Ballard's hands (the way it should be), and Ballard decides to fire him.

 

If Irsay starts making decisions of this nature based on fan backlash, then we, as Colts fans, have much bigger problems than Pagano.  That doesn't mean that Pagano is no longer a problem.  He is still a problem, but now we have a bigger problem that cannot be fixed by firing and hiring new personnel........because you can't fire the owner.  And when the owner starts making decisions based on what the fans want to see, it rarely ends well.

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2 hours ago, JCPatriot said:

 

Make no mistake, I am not arguing that Pagano should stay.  Only that I do give these guys some credit for having heart and not packing it in.  Unfortunately, in this league, talent and physical ability trump heart, though.

 

I watched a defensive back stop running right before his man caught a pass two weeks ago. I waive him during the post game press conference. The fact that the Colts get blown out in the second half is proof they don’t have any heart. The only way to get a team with heart is to waive the players who give up. When you let them keep playing, you create a team of losers.

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18 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

Yea. Belichick is a great coach. Expecting us to be able to replicate that is unrealistic.

 

And for the record you do see Pagano coaching his players on the sidelines. Mostly when they trot off.

It doenst matter what you do or don't see.

 

Our players are motivated. That;s coaching

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8 minutes ago, JCPatriot said:

 

Of course it worries me.  As I initially stated, I am in the camp that thinks that Pagano needs to go.  I think that is overdue.  I was opposed to bringing him back for this season.  However, if Irsay starts making decisions of this nature based on potential fan backlash, then I am much more worried about that.  If Pagano is fired, it should be because either:

 

1.  Irsay believes that retaining Pagano is not what is best for the future of the Colts.

 

or

 

2.  Irsay puts the choice of head coach in Ballard's hands (the way it should be), and Ballard decides to fire him.

 

If Irsay starts making decisions of this nature based on fan backlash, then we, as Colts fans, have much bigger problems than Pagano.  That doesn't mean that Pagano is no longer a problem.  He is still a problem, but now we have a bigger problem that cannot be fixed by firing and hiring new personnel........because you can't fire the owner.  And when the owner starts making decisions based on what the fans want to see, it rarely ends well.

I understand what you’re saying and I’m not advocating for Irsay to listen to us.  But if he still thinks Chuck is the answer, then his decision making may actually be worse than the fans...  And that too is big trouble for the organization.  And I agree we should let Ballard pick his own coach.

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29 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

Yea. Belichick is a great coach. Expecting us to be able to replicate that is unrealistic.

 

And for the record you do see Pagano coaching his players on the sidelines. Mostly when they trot off.

Nobody can ever replicate Belichick but you can mimic his attention to detail.  The way he lives & breathes the game.  Always scheming. Always gameplanning. Always tweaking. Looking for an advantage.  That’s the kind of football mind we need.  Be it on offense or defense.  I just don’t get that from Chuck.  That he’s a football savant in that way.  And surrounds himself with like minded coaches.  

 

And the clapping thing when they trot off...  That’s a good one.  Touché.  I’m glad we can have a respectful debate about all of this. No over the top nonsense.  Just Colts fan talking about their team.  Thanks blubomber.

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12 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

But if he still thinks Chuck is the answer, then his decision making may actually be worse than the fans...  And that too is big trouble for the organization.

 

Yes, it is.  There are multiple forms of inept ownership, and one form is the owner that thinks that his decisions are correct and that he knows best no matter what kind of results he sees on a year-to-year basis.  Irsay probably has a little bit of that streak in him, but it could be a lot worse.  Irsay used to be the GM (under his father) and make actual football decisions.  He realized that he wasn't very good at that and decided to get people that are better than him to make those decisions.  In general, he tends to defer decisions to people that know better than him, although he does get involved from time to time.  From what I have read, it was Irsay that told Polian to go get Dungy as head coach.  It was likely Irsay that forced Ballard to stick with Pagano this season.  So yes, an owner that makes all the decisions and sticks with them because he knows better regardless of what the actual results say is big trouble for an organization..........provided that the owner makes bad decisions.  On the flip side of that, though, an owner that makes decisions based on what the fans want to see is big trouble for an organization no matter what.......because that is NEVER a good way to run an organization.  That is how the Jets run their organization and a big reason why the Jets are where they are.  On the flip side of that, Giants fans were calling loudly for Coughlin's head........until they won the Super Bowl.

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40 minutes ago, Wes Heilman said:

 

I watched a defensive back stop running right before his man caught a pass two weeks ago.   I waive him during the post game press conference. The fact that the Colts get blown out in the second half is proof they don’t have any heart.

 

I'm talking about today.  I am not saying that there have not been games this season where they have not given full effort.  I don't think you want to make rash decisions immediately following a game, though.  Take some time and look at the film to determine exactly what is going on first.  If guys are quitting on plays, it should be evident from the film and if that is the case, then I agree.  You cut them.

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8 minutes ago, JCPatriot said:

 

Yes, it is.  There are multiple forms of inept ownership, and one form is the owner that thinks that his decisions are correct and that he knows best no matter what kind of results he sees on a year-to-year basis.  Irsay probably has a little bit of that streak in him, but it could be a lot worse.  Irsay used to be the GM (under his father) and make actual football decisions.  He realized that he wasn't very good at that and decided to get people that are better than him to make those decisions.  In general, he tends to defer decisions to people that know better than him, although he does get involved from time to time.  From what I have read, it was Irsay that told Polian to go get Dungy as head coach.  It was likely Irsay that forced Ballard to stick with Pagano this season.  So yes, an owner that makes all the decisions and sticks with them because he knows better regardless of what the actual results say is big trouble for an organization..........provided that the owner makes bad decisions.  On the flip side of that, though, an owner that makes decisions based on what the fans want to see is big trouble for an organization no matter what.......because that is NEVER a good way to run an organization.  That is how the Jets run their organization and a big reason why the Jets are where they are.  On the flip side of that, Giants fans were calling loudly for Coughlin's head........until they won the Super Bowl.

I bet they miss Coughlin now...  

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17 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I bet they miss Coughlin now...

 

It was time, but it does serve as a good case study of how making a change doesn't necessarily mean that you will get something better.  NY Giant fans were calling for Coughlin's head pretty loudly before they won their first Super Bowl.   Then that sentiment quieted for obvious reasons.  Then it started to build again, not as loudly.  Then they won a second Super Bowl.  Then it quieted again.  Then it started building again until there was a significant fan voice calling for his head.  Ownership decided it was time and parted ways with him.  Then they hired McAdoo...........and, well, yuck.  So if I had to rate those decisions.

 

1.  Keeping Coughlin prior to first Super Bowl despite calls from the fan base to fire him.  - GOOD DECISION

2.  Keeping Coughlin prior to second Super Bowl despite calls from the fan base to fire him.  - GOOD DECISION

3.  Firing Coughlin in agreement with calls from the fan base to fire him.  - GOOD DECISION

4.  Promoting McAdoo to head coach (not sure what the fan opinion was on this).  - BAD DECISION

 

Now, I have the benefit of hindsight here, but the point is that the Giants' ownership made decisions based on what they thought was best for the team, not what the fan base wanted.  This didn't result in all good decisions, as the opinion to promote McAdoo was clearly a terrible decision, but it resulted in more good decisions than following the whims of the fan base would have.

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