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Notes On The Colts Choking


King Colt
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The Indianapolis Colts enter Week 7 as the fourth place team in AFC South and the damage they have endured has been mostly self-inflicted. Through six games, choking has become a part of the team’s identity as they continue to show an inability to close out games.

The Week 6 loss to the Tennessee Titans was the latest installment of the second-half collapses the Colts have endured and their late-game meltdowns have become less of a trend and more of a characteristic. http://coltswire.usatoday.com/2017/10/18/indianapolis-colts-choking-team-identity-chuck-pagano/

 

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I think "choke" is one of most over used words in sports.   Typically by people who love sports but don't know sports very well.

 

I've never thought we've been choking away games.    I don't think we're very talented and over the course of a 60 minute game the better team will typically win.    That's reality in the NFL.    

 

We we are hugely under-manned and that will show up in the 2nd half.    We still don't have many playmakers,  difference makers and in the NFL that is typically the difference between winning and losing.

 

We've gone from being old and slow to being young, but inexperienced.    Ballard said when he was hired this would not be a one-year fix,  and that's what you're seeing on the field.   

 

This team isn't choking... it's just not good enough.    Not yet at least...

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1 hour ago, GoColts8818 said:

Call it what you want but this team clearly can’t finish.  That’s a sign of a weak minded team and that falls on the coaching staff.

Wouldn’t starting the game off so well be an indication of a good game plan? IE good from the coaching staff?

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1 minute ago, VocableLoki said:

Wouldn’t starting the game off so well be an indication of a good game plan? IE good from the coaching staff?

Look, it's simple:

 

When things go right, it's because of the players. They were playing well, despite the poor coaching.

 

When things go wrong (even if a player doesn't make a catch in the back of the end zone on a wonderful play call, or fumbles the ball on a simple out route) it's the coaches fault. Clear and simple.

 

Sarcasm.

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1 minute ago, Flash7 said:

Look, it's simple:

 

When things go right, it's because of the players. They were playing well, despite the poor coaching.

 

When things go wrong (even if a player doesn't make a catch in the back of the end zone on a wonderful play call, or fumbles the ball on a simple out route) it's the coaches fault. Clear and simple.

 

Sarcasm.

Lolz. Sarcasm appreciated :thmup::thmup:

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2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think "choke" is one of most over used words in sports.   Typically by people who love sports but don't know sports very well.

 

I've never thought we've been choking away games.    I don't think we're very talented and over the course of a 60 minute game the better team will typically win.    That's reality in the NFL.    

 

We we are hugely under-manned and that will show up in the 2nd half.    We still don't have many playmakers,  difference makers and in the NFL that is typically the difference between winning and losing.

 

We've gone from being old and slow to being young, but inexperienced.    Ballard said when he was hired this would not be a one-year fix,  and that's what you're seeing on the field.   

 

This team isn't choking... it's just not good enough.    Not yet at least...

i concur

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2 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Call it what you want but this team clearly can’t finish.  That’s a sign of a weak minded team and that falls on the coaching staff.

 

You see the Colts not being able to finish and conclude it's mentally weak and falls on the coaching staff.

 

I see the Colts not being able to finish and conclude we're not very talented and that falls on the previous GM.

 

So,  we see the same thing differently.

 

 

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Pat Kirwan summed it up succinctly today.  he said the Colts weren't really bad, but they are a 2-4 type team. (meaning, not really very good either)  Reasons he listed were--

 

Without the starting QB.  He challenged a caller what backup QB record was in the NFL this year.  He stated, 6 wins and 12 losses. What is Brissett, 2-3?

 

Young (inexperienced) team - other teams 'figure out' what the Colts are doing offensively and defensively at halftime, come out and change in the second half and take it to the young team...  and its working.  Whether the Colts take the ball out of JB's hands (Run Gore), or allow him to sling it (this past Monday night).  Doesn't matter, fans get ticked at the strategy as the opponent wears them down anyway against anything they try.

 

Road losses -  all 3 road games resulted in a loss.  But he showed how many good teams have an (sometimes way) under .500 road win total.    For grins, won't people look up these two teams? AFC West, what is Denver's home and away record?  5 homes games, 4-1, only one road game played; a Loss. What is Oakland's away record?  1 win, 2 Losses.

JB could/should have all 3 victories at home, but he lost the Cardinal game in OT.

 

He mentioned other things, but these were compelling enough in my mind.

 

And I heard Gil Brandt weigh in on the Colts, and he specifically stated the Colts were not a good football team.  Take that with your grains of salt, but Gil isn't to be taken lightly even in his twilight years.

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Here are some coaching mistakes that were made on Monday night.  Anyone that knows a bit about the game and also studied up on the Titans could see these clear strategy mistakes:

 

1) The Colts were playing against a QB on one leg and a RB on one leg.  The Dolphins had tremendous success blitzing against the Titans, and that success came against a healthy backup.  The Colts rarely blitzed and the normal pass rush had little to no success for the vast majority of the game.

 

2) Zone - The Titans have literally no WRs that should scare anyone.  Walker is the only real passing game threat.  Instead of being aggressive and pressing the average receivers, disrupting the timing and making Marcus stand on his hobbled leg in the pocket a bit longer, the Colts sat back in soft zone and let average WRs get wide open, running starts on virtually every passing play.

 

3) Moving Hilton from his natural position outside and putting him in the slot opposite of Tennessee's lone quality DB, Ryan.  By doing this, you eliminate your best offensive weapon, and you also eliminate Aiken by putting him outside against a faster corner that can easily negate and contain Aiken's limited speed.

 

Because of these decisions, you now only have 2 options in the receiving game, Moncrief (who was open regularly and dropped an easy TD) and Doyle, who played like a 4th-string TE.

 

These are mistakes I wouldn't expect a well-coached high-school team to make.

 

There is no reason whatsoever that the coaching staff, as a whole, should not get ripped for these terrible strategic decisions. 

 

Not to mention the stupid penalties (offsides, personal fouls, etc.) that continue to plague this team.  Penalties that wipe out good plays and give the opposing team momentum. 

 

One of the worst coaching staffs in the league, irrespective of Luck's availability. 

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30 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You see the Colts not being able to finish and conclude it's mentally weak and falls on the coaching staff.

 

I see the Colts not being able to finish and conclude we're not very talented and that falls on the previous GM.

 

So,  we see the same thing differently.

 

 

Mentally weak players can also fall on the GM however the Colts have only two starters back from last years defense so it’s hard to blame Grigson for that.  

 

As for offense you can pin a little more of that on Grigson but we’ve also seen guys like Moncrief, Clark, and, Heag not only fail to progress but maybe regress under this staff that also goes on the coach.

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3 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Call it what you want but this team clearly can’t finish.  That’s a sign of a weak minded team and that falls on the coaching staff.

A lot of it is about confidence. We don't have our best player so mentally I am guessing we panic and collapse. Nothing against Brissett but in the past when we had Luck we never panicked and pulled a lot of games out. Players always believed. Take any franchise QB away from any team and things change dramatically. Watch the Packers stink now for example.

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

A lot of it is about confidence. We don't have our best player so mentally I am guessing we panic and collapse. Nothing against Brissett but in the past when we had Luck we never panicked and pulled a lot of games. Players always believed. Take any franchise QB away from any team and things change dramatically. Watch the Packers stink now for example.

I don’t dispute that having Luck would be a huge boost but it doesn’t change that I feel the Colts are weakminded at the moment.  Having guys like Luck who are leaders on the field is what it takes to be strong minded.  So I am sure whenever they get him back I am sure they will be better at closing.  Right now they just don’t have the guys and I don’t see the coaches developing those guys.

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You see the Colts not being able to finish and conclude it's mentally weak and falls on the coaching staff.

 

I see the Colts not being able to finish and conclude we're not very talented and that falls on the previous GM.

 

So,  we see the same thing differently.

 

 

 

 

I happen to agree to both sides of this argument. I think the team is very thin on talent and would be 2-4 with most of today's coaching staffs. All this 2017 coaching rhetoric means nothing as it's not Pagano's fault Luck is hurt and like you say the team is just plain bad. Furthermore he's probably 95% gone... so what's really the point ?That said I would have 2 questions for you and I'm not looking for a drawn out fight on this .

 

1) How many of the busts in free agency and recent drafts did C Pagano have a "hand " in getting here.

 

2) This one is a little "challenging" to your opinion. You have often stated (many times) that Pagano's won loss record is "proof" that he is a "better than average " NFL coach. I'm of the belief that if he was working with an average QB , he would not have had those 11-5 years. Plus you have to look at all wins accumulated with 6 games a year in a very weak division. So I'm saying Luck and the division and a lot to do with those wins. The record without Luck is pretty good (forget this year) but it's a small sample size and I haven't looked at who the wins came against but like I said , I think the sample size is too small.

 

That said , if you are correct when you say those 11-5 records are proof that he's a top 15 coach (better than average) , the following should happen. If he is fired early after the year's end and say there are 6-7 jobs open , should he get one ? Certainly if his record proves he's top 15 , NFL owners and GM's will snatch him up ? If it's obvious or fact , they have to be smart enough to realize he's that good ? I'll go out on a limb and say he doesn't get a HC job in 2018 or 2019. That's my thought on this and probably my last comment other than answering any comments you have to this post. Like I said .. not looking for a fight . Lust some decent conversation as it's hard to find much that's fun discussing regarding this year.

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20 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

 

I happen to agree to both sides of this argument. I think the team is very thin on talent and would be 2-4 with most of today's coaching staffs. All this 2017 coaching rhetoric means nothing as it's not Pagano's fault Luck is hurt and like you say the team is just plain bad. Furthermore he's probably 95% gone... so what's really the point ?That said I would have 2 questions for you and I'm not looking for a drawn out fight on this .

 

1) How many of the busts in free agency and recent drafts did C Pagano have a "hand " in getting here.

 

2) This one is a little "challenging" to your opinion. You have often stated (many times) that Pagano's won loss record is "proof" that he is a "better than average " NFL coach. I'm of the belief that if he was working with an average QB , he would not have had those 11-5 years. Plus you have to look at all wins accumulated with 6 games a year in a very weak division. So I'm saying Luck and the division and a lot to do with those wins. The record without Luck is pretty good (forget this year) but it's a small sample size and I haven't looked at who the wins came against but like I said , I think the sample size is too small.

 

That said , if you are correct when you say those 11-5 records are proof that he's a top 15 coach (better than average) , the following should happen. If he is fired early after the year's end and say there are 6-7 jobs open , should he get one ? Certainly if his record proves he's top 15 , NFL owners and GM's will snatch him up ? If it's obvious or fact , they have to be smart enough to realize he's that good ? I'll go out on a limb and say he doesn't get a HC job in 2018 or 2019. That's my thought on this and probably my last comment other than answering any comments you have to this post. Like I said .. not looking for a fight . Lust some decent conversation as it's hard to find much that's fun discussing regarding this year.

 

Good post....     I'll try and answer both questions....

 

1.     I have no idea.    Honestly,  I'm not sure there's anyone outside the orgranization who would know the answer to ths question.      How much input has Pagano had with drafts and free agent signings?      No idea.

 

But....

 

I think Pagano is a team player.    A company man.    A horse shoe guy.    So, even if he didn't agree with the pick,  publicly he's going to sell it.    He's going to present a united front to the media and fan base.     He's not going to stab Grigson or anyone else in the back and leak to the media that he hated this pick or that signing.     I think that's an admirable quality,  but it means I have no idea how much input Pagano has had in personnel maters.     When fans here quote Pagano talking up this draft pick and that pick,  I think they're reading too much into his words.   Again,  he's toeing the company line.

 

2.    As to Pagano and where he is ranked.     I think you're quoting me from the first four years of Pagano's run.   Right around after 2015 I began to soften on Chuck being "above average".     I started to allow that he's had the benefit of a soft schedule.      And my argument for Chuck became this.....     that he is average.     That's he's neither a top-10 coach,  or a bottom-10 coach.    That he's somewhere in the middle 12.     That, at his best,  winning in the post-season,  he's no higher than 11.     That at his worst,  getting blown out by New England or Pittsburgh,  he's no worse than 22.     That he's right in the middle of the pack.     And, I've maintained that average is not good enough for Luck and the Colts and we need better.     I like Chuck,  but I don't love him.     My defense for him comes against those who typically say "Chuck sucks!"     "He's the worst!"     Comments like that.     Those are silly and easy to defeat.      But I haven't made a "Chuck is above average" argument since roughly the end of the 2015 season.

 

I've repeatedly said in the last few months that I'm fine if he's fired at the end of the season.    That I think the team needs a new HC.     That it's time.     I just don't want to clean house of the whole staff.     I think there are some good assistants and I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.     I'm fine with Chuck going.     I think he's average and average just isn't good enough.

 

Hope that addresses your questions....   if not,  please ask a follow-up....

 

 

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1 hour ago, GoColts8818 said:

Mentally weak players can also fall on the GM however the Colts have only two starters back from last years defense so it’s hard to blame Grigson for that.  

 

As for offense you can pin a little more of that on Grigson but we’ve also seen guys like Moncrief, Clark, and, Heag not only fail to progress but maybe regress under this staff that also goes on the coach.

 

Sorry....   allow me to clarify....

 

Fair point to note that we have only two starters back from last year,  but I think we can still blame Grigson.    Because signing/drafting 9 new guys and have it come out as a good defense in the first year is not an easy thing to do.   I'm certainly not going to blame Ballard.    The guy has turned over half the roster.     That's on the previous guy.

Ballard inherited a mess and it's taking time to fix it.

 

At the start of the season I heard Bill Polian say he liked everything Ballard did this off-season and he still didn't think the team would be any better than 8-8,  and that was when we thought Luck might be back by week 3 or so.     Still, you get the point.    Ballard said this wouldn't be a one year rebuild and we're seeing that.

 

I don't know what's going on with Moncrief, Clark and Haeg....    but I'm not ready to blame the staff.    The new WR coach arrived with glowing credentials.     Moncrief is struggling,  Dorsett gets traded and Rogers has been hurt.    I'm not sure I see that as the fault of the WR assistant.     Haeg and Clark were very good in their rookie year.     I don't pretend to know what's going on,  but Joe Philbin didn't get dumb overnight.     I think Haeg has not been healthy as advertised...   (neither has Mewhort)   and Clark is a mystery.     But Philbin's track record for success is too long to think the problem is his....

 

Grigson spent 5 years trying to get the offense right because we had Andrew Luck.    And he STILL didn't get it right.

And in doing so,  he left the defense mostly to free agency and that didn't work out either.

 

That's why we're in the mess we're in.    

 

That's my viewpoint.     I'm sure it's not that popular,  but that's OK,  I'm used to that.    But that's how I see things.

 

And I'm looking for better days for Ballard and whoever he hires to be the new HC.        :colts:

 

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It’s clearly......the coaching 

 

I don’t think Chuck is a good coach honestly......and he is terrible with second half adjustments that’s basically what it comes down to.....I mean it’s not other way to put it.....we don’t have great players not saying they don’t make mistakes but we have several that plays hard with good motors I’m saying that due to the leads the team gets.....but the second half adjustments have been terrible since Chuck been the coach 

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I've said it before.  Teams take on the persona of their coach.

think NE, raiders, caughlin's giants, pittsburgh for the best examples.

anytime you hear "keep chopping wood", fire the guy.  I want a coach who will throw a ay the axe and bring a chainsa and some dynamite with him.  Its quite dimple really just like in the "real world".

produce or theres the door.  Nothing less. Thes people are paid FAR too much to be mediocre.

Ballard is gonna blow this up.  And a new culture of winning must be cultivated:  its an attitude.  A confidence.  It should start with the coach, and it just hasnt happened.

bring in a hard nos d demanding type.  Think belichek, parcells, tomlin, caughlin type personality.  The players have to be a little afraid of the coach, imo.  

Accountability, not hugs is what these players need.  They've gotten fat, lazy, and comfortable (so to speak).

does anyone think its a coincidence our hardest hitting, most physical camp players can remember happened in Ballard's 1st year? Of course not.  Ballard and pagano are very different in their approaches.  He'll change that soon.

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5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think "choke" is one of most over used words in sports.   Typically by people who love sports but don't know sports very well.

 

I've never thought we've been choking away games.    I don't think we're very talented and over the course of a 60 minute game the better team will typically win.    That's reality in the NFL.    

 

We we are hugely under-manned and that will show up in the 2nd half.    We still don't have many playmakers,  difference makers and in the NFL that is typically the difference between winning and losing.

 

We've gone from being old and slow to being young, but inexperienced.    Ballard said when he was hired this would not be a one-year fix,  and that's what you're seeing on the field.   

 

This team isn't choking... it's just not good enough.    Not yet at least...

 

Yes & no. They actually look somewhat stout on defense in the 1st halves of games, then, like clockwork, they go into a soft zone coverage every single 2nd half, & all the sudden, the opposing offense is able to march up & down the field at will. It’s baffling.

 

To compound the issue, we completely abandon whatever’s working offensively in the 1st half. Just 1 example, Frank Gore was averaging 6ypc in the 1st half vs TEN, & had around 50yds rushing at halftime. I think he touched the ball twice in the 2nd half?

 

So no, choking isn’t nevessarily the right word, but I also think if they play to their strengths on both sides of the ball for 60 minutes, & stick with things that are working, this team is 4-2.

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53 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Good post....     I'll try and answer both questions....

 

1.     I have no idea.    Honestly,  I'm not sure there's anyone outside the orgranization who would know the answer to ths question.      How much input has Pagano had with drafts and free agent signings?      No idea.

 

But....

 

I think Pagano is a team player.    A company man.    A horse shoe guy.    So, even if he didn't agree with the pick,  publicly he's going to sell it.    He's going to present a united front to the media and fan base.     He's not going to stab Grigson or anyone else in the back and leak to the media that he hated this pick or that signing.     I think that's an admirable quality,  but it means I have no idea how much input Pagano has had in personnel maters.     When fans here quote Pagano talking up this draft pick and that pick,  I think they're reading too much into his words.   Again,  he's toeing the company line.

 

2.    As to Pagano and where he is ranked.     I think you're quoting me from the first four years of Pagano's run.   Right around after 2015 I began to soften on Chuck being "above average".     I started to allow that he's had the benefit of a soft schedule.      And my argument for Chuck became this.....     that he is average.     That's he's neither a top-10 coach,  or a bottom-10 coach.    That he's somewhere in the middle 12.     That, at his best,  winning in the post-season,  he's no higher than 11.     That at his worst,  getting blown out by New England or Pittsburgh,  he's no worse than 22.     That he's right in the middle of the pack.     And, I've maintained that average is not good enough for Luck and the Colts and we need better.     I like Chuck,  but I don't love him.     My defense for him comes against those who typically say "Chuck sucks!"     "He's the worst!"     Comments like that.     Those are silly and easy to defeat.      But I haven't made a "Chuck is above average" argument since roughly the end of the 2015 season.

 

I've repeatedly said in the last few months that I'm fine if he's fired at the end of the season.    That I think the team needs a new HC.     That it's time.     I just don't want to clean house of the whole staff.     I think there are some good assistants and I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.     I'm fine with Chuck going.     I think he's average and average just isn't good enough.

 

Hope that addresses your questions....   if not,  please ask a follow-up....

 

 

 

That's all reasonable and to question 1 , we can only guess. 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sorry....   allow me to clarify....

 

Fair point to note that we have only two starters back from last year,  but I think we can still blame Grigson.    Because signing/drafting 9 new guys and have it come out as a good defense in the first year is not an easy thing to do.   I'm certainly not going to blame Ballard.    The guy has turned over half the roster.     That's on the previous guy.

Ballard inherited a mess and it's taking time to fix it.

 

At the start of the season I heard Bill Polian say he liked everything Ballard did this off-season and he still didn't think the team would be any better than 8-8,  and that was when we thought Luck might be back by week 3 or so.     Still, you get the point.    Ballard said this wouldn't be a one year rebuild and we're seeing that.

 

I don't know what's going on with Moncrief, Clark and Haeg....    but I'm not ready to blame the staff.    The new WR coach arrived with glowing credentials.     Moncrief is struggling,  Dorsett gets traded and Rogers has been hurt.    I'm not sure I see that as the fault of the WR assistant.     Haeg and Clark were very good in their rookie year.     I don't pretend to know what's going on,  but Joe Philbin didn't get dumb overnight.     I think Haeg has not been healthy as advertised...   (neither has Mewhort)   and Clark is a mystery.     But Philbin's track record for success is too long to think the problem is his....

 

Grigson spent 5 years trying to get the offense right because we had Andrew Luck.    And he STILL didn't get it right.

And in doing so,  he left the defense mostly to free agency and that didn't work out either.

 

That's why we're in the mess we're in.    

 

That's my viewpoint.     I'm sure it's not that popular,  but that's OK,  I'm used to that.    But that's how I see things.

 

And I'm looking for better days for Ballard and whoever he hires to be the new HC.        :colts:

 

 

 

As to Clark , he IMO he just "flashed" last year. Looked good on some plays , held his own on a bunch more and always had a few where he was over powered or badly beaten. You just can't (again JMO) have 2-3 plays a game where you give a rusher a free run at your QB. It's one thing to get beat but he has those occasional plays where he is horribly beaten. 

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sorry....   allow me to clarify....

 

Fair point to note that we have only two starters back from last year,  but I think we can still blame Grigson.    Because signing/drafting 9 new guys and have it come out as a good defense in the first year is not an easy thing to do.   I'm certainly not going to blame Ballard.    The guy has turned over half the roster.     That's on the previous guy.

Ballard inherited a mess and it's taking time to fix it.

 

At the start of the season I heard Bill Polian say he liked everything Ballard did this off-season and he still didn't think the team would be any better than 8-8,  and that was when we thought Luck might be back by week 3 or so.     Still, you get the point.    Ballard said this wouldn't be a one year rebuild and we're seeing that.

 

I don't know what's going on with Moncrief, Clark and Haeg....    but I'm not ready to blame the staff.    The new WR coach arrived with glowing credentials.     Moncrief is struggling,  Dorsett gets traded and Rogers has been hurt.    I'm not sure I see that as the fault of the WR assistant.     Haeg and Clark were very good in their rookie year.     I don't pretend to know what's going on,  but Joe Philbin didn't get dumb overnight.     I think Haeg has not been healthy as advertised...   (neither has Mewhort)   and Clark is a mystery.     But Philbin's track record for success is too long to think the problem is his....

 

Grigson spent 5 years trying to get the offense right because we had Andrew Luck.    And he STILL didn't get it right.

And in doing so,  he left the defense mostly to free agency and that didn't work out either.

 

That's why we're in the mess we're in.    

 

That's my viewpoint.     I'm sure it's not that popular,  but that's OK,  I'm used to that.    But that's how I see things.

 

And I'm looking for better days for Ballard and whoever he hires to be the new HC.        :colts:

 

Rather it's Grigson or Ballard players the guys on the field the past couple of years have one thing in common.  Pagano has been coaching them and they had a hard time putting teams away.  That's a sign of a mentally weak team and it falls on the coach to make them mentally stronger.  Rather it be Cardinals or Titans this year or the Browns and 49ers both teams they let back into the game they had beat or even the Lions game when they gave the defense the leader with under a minute to go or the Titans game in Tennessee when they let back in a game last year or the Texans game in Houston last year, or heck even their best win last season when they let the Packers come storming back in the 4th quarter.  Pagano's teams the past couple of years have a track record of not finishing teams off.  Can you argue some of that is the players?  Sure but whose job is it to make them mentally strong enough to finish the game?  The Head Coach.  That's why I say it falls on him.  

 

In this case I am not really concerned about either GM as I would agree it's too soon to judge Ballard and I have gone on the record several times saying Grigson failed as a GM.  This is about a team not being able to finish on the field and Pagano has proven these guys are talented enough to get a lead in most of these games but his guys the last couple of years haven't been able to finish.  That's a sign of a coaching problem more than a talent problem, although I would agree that the Colts have suffered from both the past couple of years.

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Who is the leader in the locker room right now?  Those guys need to speak up.  If you are good enough to lead virtually every game at halftime and also be in several overtime games, then it's not a talent problem, imo.  On the field leadership.  Who is our Robert Mathis out there?  I might make Simon a captain.  That guy is bringing it.  

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3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You see the Colts not being able to finish and conclude it's mentally weak and falls on the coaching staff.

 

I see the Colts not being able to finish and conclude we're not very talented and that falls on the previous GM.

 

So,  we see the same thing differently.

 

 

I see both. I see some good talent (or at least more talent than last year) and good coaching/game plan in the first half. Then the 2nd half rolls around and the coaches can't make any adjustments (or any that work), don't play guys that have shown they can help the team. Not putting guys in a position to where they can succeed. Play calling goes to crap in the 2nd half. Basically doing the same things that has not worked week after week after well you get my drift :facepalm: haha 

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1 hour ago, dw49 said:

 

That's all reasonable and to question 1 , we can only guess. 

 

 

 

You asked about one other thing and I failed to address it.      And that's Pagano getting hired after he leaves the Colts. I don't see it happening,   but I suppose it might.

 

In Jan of 2016, when the rumor was Pags would be fired,  we were all surprised that he got re-signed to a new 4-year deal.     NFL.com reported that Irsay was close to firing Pagano but a number of owners told Irsay that if he did that,  they were ready to offer Pags their HC spot.    That they thought he was a good coach.     So Irsay had a change of heart.

 

In Jan of 2016,  I think an owner could stand before the media and tell fans that they have hired a HC whose 4-years at Indy were 11-5, 11-5,  11-5,  going one round further each year in the playoffs and then going 8-8 in 2015 without Andrew Luck for 9 games.      I think an owner could've easily sold that.

 

But now,  if we fire Pags as I expect we will,  I don't see an owner willing to stand up to introduce Pagano,  whose last 3-years are 8-8,  8-8 and whatever we do this year...   maybe 5-11, or at best, 6-10.      I don't think that sells.    Right or wrong,  fair or unfair,  I think that's the reality.     The circumstances are very different.

 

Pags has said Indy would be his last coaching job.    I don't know if he meant it,  or if he meant last HC job,   or even if he'd accept being a DC or just a position coach?      Don't know.    But, he's got two more years on his contract and suspect he's set financially.     I don't see him doing media the way some former coaches so,  that's not Chuck.   

 

But I suspect his retirement would be very, very comfortable!    (We should all be so lucky)

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Rather it's Grigson or Ballard players the guys on the field the past couple of years have one thing in common.  Pagano has been coaching them and they had a hard time putting teams away.  That's a sign of a mentally weak team and it falls on the coach to make them mentally stronger.  Rather it be Cardinals or Titans this year or the Browns and 49ers both teams they let back into the game they had beat or even the Lions game when they gave the defense the leader with under a minute to go or the Titans game in Tennessee when they let back in a game last year or the Texans game in Houston last year, or heck even their best win last season when they let the Packers come storming back in the 4th quarter.  Pagano's teams the past couple of years have a track record of not finishing teams off.  Can you argue some of that is the players?  Sure but whose job is it to make them mentally strong enough to finish the game?  The Head Coach.  That's why I say it falls on him.  

 

In this case I am not really concerned about either GM as I would agree it's too soon to judge Ballard and I have gone on the record several times saying Grigson failed as a GM.  This is about a team not being able to finish on the field and Pagano has proven these guys are talented enough to get a lead in most of these games but his guys the last couple of years haven't been able to finish.  That's a sign of a coaching problem more than a talent problem, although I would agree that the Colts have suffered from both the past couple of years.

 

2015  Poor QB play.

2016  Terrible defense,  old and slow

2017  Very young team.   They're learning on the job.

 

I'm not arguing to keep Pagano.    I'm ready to move on.    I'm only saying there are circumstances why a coach that knew success his first 3 years has had much less success his last 3 years.      Sean Peyton is a very good coach,  but his last 3 years were 7-9, 7-9, and 7-9.    He didn't get stupid.    There were a lot of personnel problems.    Now his team is better.      He didn't go from smart, to dumb,  and now back to smart again.    There are circumstances.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

2015  Poor QB play.

2016  Terrible defense,  old and slow

2017  Very young team.   They're learning on the job.

 

I'm not arguing to keep Pagano.    I'm ready to move on.    I'm only saying there are circumstances why a coach that knew success his first 3 years has had much less success his last 3 years.      Sean Peyton is a very good coach,  but his last 3 years were 7-9, 7-9, and 7-9.    He didn't get stupid.    There were a lot of personnel problems.    Now his team is better.      He didn't go from smart, to dumb,  and now back to smart again.    There are circumstances.

 

 

That or it was somewhat fools gold.  The Colts won a lot of close games early in Pagano’s years where things just broke their way.  Let’s also not forget he pretty much dumped his whole coaching staff and the last two years it’s been new guys.  

 

With that said talking about this team and what has been the disturbing trend the last couple of years this team has trouble closing and that still points to a weak minded team which falls on the head coach.  I am not the only who has said this.  Bob kravitz called them the weakest minded Colts team he’s seen in a long time during the 49ers game.

 

 

It’s also not just that they can’t finish but how they blow it.  They do it by self destructing with turnovers, penalties, and other miscues like drops.  All that goes on the head coach because it’s his job go get his team to focus to avoid those things.  It supports my arguement that the Colts are not a disciplined team which falls on Pagano.  They don’t do the little things you need to do to win the fourth quarter of a NFL football game and it’s the head coach’s job to get them to do those things.  

 

I am not a blame Pagano for everything guy.  In fact I’ve defended him many times when I think he deserves it.  However I think there is direct correlation to the Colts being a weak minded team in the fourth quarter and the head coach.  

 

Maybe it hasnt always been a problem over Pagano’s tenure here but it has been the last couple of years.  Why is that?  Like I said before the whole coaching staff was pretty much turned over the last two years maybe that’s some of it.  I also think losing clear leaders like Redding and Wayne hurt it.  The Colts haven’t developed their younger guys to replace them and it’s not just in performance on the field but in terms of the leadership you need to close out football games.  You can’t tell me Pagano had nothing to do with that because that’s his biggest job to develop players.

 

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50 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

That or it was somewhat fools gold.  The Colts won a lot of close games early in Pagano’s years where things just broke their way.  Let’s also not forget he pretty much dumped his whole coaching staff and the last two years it’s been new guys.  

 

With that said talking about this team and what has been the disturbing trend the last couple of years this team has trouble closing and that still points to a weak minded team which falls on the head coach.  I am not the only who has said this.  Bob kravitz called them the weakest minded Colts team he’s seen in a long time during the 49ers game.

 

 

It’s also not just that they can’t finish but how they blow it.  They do it by self destructing with turnovers, penalties, and other miscues like drops.  All that goes on the head coach because it’s his job go get his team to focus to avoid those things.  It supports my arguement that the Colts are not a disciplined team which falls on Pagano.  They don’t do the little things you need to do to win the fourth quarter of a NFL football game and it’s the head coach’s job to get them to do those things.  

 

I am not a blame Pagano for everything guy.  In fact I’ve defended him many times when I think he deserves it.  However I think there is direct correlation to the Colts being a weak minded team in the fourth quarter and the head coach.  

 

Maybe it hasnt always been a problem over Pagano’s tenure here but it has been the last couple of years.  Why is that?  Like I said before the whole coaching staff was pretty much turned over the last two years maybe that’s some of it.  I also think losing clear leaders like Redding and Wayne hurt it.  The Colts haven’t developed their younger guys to replace them and it’s not just in performance on the field but in terms of the leadership you need to close out football games.  You can’t tell me Pagano had nothing to do with that because that’s his biggest job to develop players.

 

 

So, was Pagano a tough minded coach when we were winning but suddenly he's a weak minded coach?

 

You think the changes the last 3 years have nothing to with personnel?

 

I don't understand this line of thinking at all.    

 

But,  in the grand scheme of things,   I don't think it matters much whether we agree or agree to disagree.....   because I think we both believe that Pags will not be the coach next year.     I'm not saying it's a 100 percent lock,  I think it's too early to make that kind of prediction.....   but we'd have to see dramatic improvement over the next 10 games and I don't think most people here see that happening.

 

So,  there will likely be a new leader in 2018.....    the only question appears to be.....    who?

 

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18 hours ago, King Colt said:

The Indianapolis Colts enter Week 7 as the fourth place team in AFC South and the damage they have endured has been mostly self-inflicted. Through six games, choking has become a part of the team’s identity as they continue to show an inability to close out games.

The Week 6 loss to the Tennessee Titans was the latest installment of the second-half collapses the Colts have endured and their late-game meltdowns have become less of a trend and more of a characteristic. http://coltswire.usatoday.com/2017/10/18/indianapolis-colts-choking-team-identity-chuck-pagano/

 

We could've easily lost to SF and Cleveland.

We're lucky to still have won those two games.

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10 hours ago, DonnieDarko1023 said:

It’s clearly......the coaching 

 

I don’t think Chuck is a good coach honestly......and he is terrible with second half adjustments that’s basically what it comes down to.....I mean it’s not other way to put it.....we don’t have great players not saying they don’t make mistakes but we have several that plays hard with good motors I’m saying that due to the leads the team gets.....but the second half adjustments have been terrible since Chuck been the coach 

Hard to grasp that under Chuck just a few years ago we were a great second half football team near the top of the league in scoring and second half come backs . Makes the argument it is all coaching lose a lot of traction . Fact is we don't have a talented roster and the depth is non existent in most positions so we see a team wearing down when we are not controlling the clock . 

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What you call it is irrelevant.By definition it's choking, but that can be said about blown leads by a lot of good teams too. It only becomes a focus of attention and labeled as choking when it becomes a predictable occurrence and there seems to be an inability of the staff and players to change it.

 

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6 minutes ago, coltsva said:

To be fair, we did blow big leads vs two winless teams with Hoyer and Kizer at QB. . 

 

And we somehow did that with a bad team. I guess I view choking as having a good team who constantly loses under pressure of the moment. Just my thoughts though. If we had Andrew Luck back at QB and we kept losing after having huge leads, that would be a problem.

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