[Yates] Colts trade Phillip Dorsett for Jacoby Brissett

[Yoshinator]

Yeah, this trade is frustrating, for the fact that we cut Natson and are somehow weaker at WR then we were last year now. No Dorsett, No Natson to replace him, seems like it's the same old strategy and team on offense all over again besides Mack (if we use him much) and Luck is probably going to miss a few games with our new QB not having enough time to learn the playbook or gel with the receivers. I can't see how this ends well. With how good of a defensive draft this was, other teams will have major improvements on defense and will have an easy time stopping us. This is not my favorite trade. Injuries always seem to kick our butt.

[krunk]

2 minutes ago, GoPats said:

 

In 2007, one of the reasons they were tough to stop is that teams had to account for Stallworth on the outside - at its most basic level it's just having two guys who can really burn. Stallworth didn't have a huge year but he contributed to Moss' success and helped open up the short

middle stuff for Welker. So this trade gives them two guys (Cooks is obviously the other) who can get downfield in a hurry. The way Atlanta had success early in in the SB was by jamming the middle of the field. If teams do that now, they'll be better equipped to try to make them pay for it. I like Chris Hogan but he's not a true deep threat. And Cooks is by no means Randy Moss, but a different kind of player all together. He won't catch as many contested balls but will still get behind the D in a hurry. Lastly, this'll help open up the seams for Gronk, that's one of their bread and butter plays. The safeties will have to draw over at times if Dorsett and Cooks are running go routes. 

 

So Indy never used him on punt returns really, did they? Was he too shaky back there or were they trying to keep him from taking too many hits? 

 

 

He fumbled his punt return opportunities two times in a row. And bobbled another. Got snatched after that.

[JColts72]

Brady an Bill will turn Dorsett into a better WR. Why on earth are we carrying  QB's behind Luck. I would have cut Scott and Morris is just like Brisett.

[krunk]

HasslH

8 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

I felt the same way with Matt Hasselbeck, who was getting plenty of coin at the time.  He ended up earning every cent of those multi-millions.  You never know what the future holds.

 

I'd love to be in the Colts coaches meetings.  I'll be Monachino has tape on him, what he excels at, and what heeds to work on from a Defensive (coach or coordinator) perspective that may have had to face the guy.  Brian Schottenheimer, Chudzinski have access to Colts scouting notes, pre and post draft.  Ballard brings a different scouting perspective on the guy from KC.  It appears this is a team decision, and driven by Ballard to have all levels of the most important position on the field accounted for.

Hasslebeck was waaaay more experienced than this kid. Plus he wasn't asked to come in with zero knowledge of the playbook and start in two weeks.

[IndyScribe]

5 minutes ago, JColts72 said:

Brady an Bill will turn Dorsett into a better WR. Why on earth are we carrying  QB's behind Luck. I would have cut Scott and Morris is just like Brisett.

Because Brissett is a long-term backup? Colts didn't like Tolzien and Morris as a backup, so they acquired one they want. We need a good backup QB, in case Luck misses time again.

[JRnINDY]

6 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Yeah, this trade is frustrating, for the fact that we cut Natson and are somehow weaker at WR then we were last year now. No Dorsett, No Natson to replace him, seems like it's the same old strategy and team on offense all over again besides Mack (if we use him much) and Luck is probably going to miss a few games with our new QB not having enough time to learn the playbook or gel with the receivers. I can't see how this ends well. With how good of a defensive draft this was, other teams will have major improvements on defense and will have an easy time stopping us. This is not my favorite trade. Injuries always seem to kick our butt.

Dorsett did not do much for us, wether it be schemes or that he was TY but not as good. As for Natson, no UDFA that fumbled 3 times made a roster. 

[JColts72]

3 minutes ago, IndyScribe said:

Because Brissett is a long-term backup? Colts didn't like Tolzien and Morris as a backup, so they acquired one they want. We need a good backup QB, in case Luck misses time again.

I don't mind the trade at all, but get rid of Scott/Morris

[IndyScribe]

1 minute ago, JColts72 said:

I don't mind the trade at all, but get rid of Scott/Morris

They will, once Brissett learns the playbook and Luck gets healthy. Tolzien probably will play Week 1. After that, one of Tolzien/Morris will be cut. 

[krunk]

I dont have much problem with the trade as a long term solution to stabilize the backup position. I just don't think he will do much to help us in these next couple weeks. Throw him out there now and I think people will want to chase him back where he came from. And that's only because its not likely he will be prepared.

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, JRnINDY said:

Dorsett did not do much for us, wether it be schemes or that he was TY but not as good. As for Natson, no UDFA that fumbled 3 times made a roster. 

Yeah, it was unfortunate that Natson blew his chance, was about ready to rip out my hair when I saw that. We'll also see if Dorsett gets utilized correctly or not. I know the Pats use a short pass strategy type game with Brady, so if they do that with Dorsett and use screens and slants with him, he'll probably use his speed for major gains. He won't get a lot of receptions though IMO, as they have a lot of mouths to feed on that team. I just feel that Brissett won't start at all before Luck comes back because he won't learn the playbook in time, and it's a long term move that may not pay dividends.

[Stephen]

31 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Until the AFC Championship game... 

Brady drops back dancing around look at the time throws it deep to a wide open dorsett and the pass is intercepted by Malik Hooker and colts are going to the superbowl. How did Hooker close the gap that fast lol

[IndyScribe]

5 minutes ago, krunk said:

I dont have much problem with the trade as a long term solution to stabilize the backup position. I just don't think he will do much to help us in these next couple weeks. Throw him out there now and I think people will want to chase him back where he came from. And that's only because its not likely he will be prepared.

This was a more of a long-term more. He'll help us in the future. As for this season, it'll be Tolzien/Morris who play.

[Stephen]

4 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Yeah, it was unfortunate that Natson blew his chance, was about ready to rip out my hair when I saw that. We'll also see if Dorsett gets utilized correctly or not. I know the Pats use a short pass strategy type game with Brady, so if they do that with Dorsett and use screens and slants with him, he'll probably use his speed for major gains. He won't get a lot of receptions though IMO, as they have a lot of mouths to feed on that team. I just feel that Brissett won't start at all before Luck comes back because he won't learn the playbook in time, and it's a long term move that may not pay dividends.

I think tolzien and morris get cut eventually if they think brissett is the answer at back up

[B~Town]

Haven't watched a lot of brisset but would it be fair to say he his a good sized qb with a strong arm that likes to push the ball down field and will use his legs to escape pressure  but is not a run first qb . 

[Yoshinator]

Just now, Stephen said:

I think tolzien and morris get cut eventually if they think brissett is the answer at back up

I agree, but it will be once Luck comes back. He should be a long term answer, but he won't win any games while Luck is gone IMO. 

[krunk]

I dont think we traded for Brissett to be the immediate right now starter. He was third sting in New England and Dorsett was basically a backup himself. I think the opportunity presented itself and they made an even swap. I dont think Ballard put Phil on the market with the purposeful intent of finding a QB. It just worked itself out that way.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, B~Town said:

Haven't watched a lot of brisset but would it be fair to say he his a good sized qb with a strong arm that likes to push the ball down field and will use his legs to escape pressure  but is not a run first qb . 

The bolded is unfortunate, I hadn't seen any tape on him yet, and was hoping someone would say he was like Tyrod Taylor. Is he more like a poor man's Bridgewater?

[krunk]

1 minute ago, Jared Cisneros said:

The bolded is unfortunate, I hadn't seen any tape on him yet, and was hoping someone would say he was like Tyrod Taylor. Is he more like a poor man's Bridgewater?

Brisett is mobile. He does run and had plays designed for him to run. However he is not super mobile. More similar to Big Ben in my opinion.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, krunk said:

Brisett is mobile. He does run and had plays designed for him to run. However he is not super mobile. More similar to Big Ben in my opinion.

Thanks Krunk!

[ColtsBlueFL]

16 minutes ago, krunk said:

HasslH

Hasslebeck was waaaay more experienced than this kid. Plus he wasn't asked to come in with zero knowledge of the playbook and start in two weeks.

 

10 minutes ago, krunk said:

I dont have much problem with the trade as a long term solution to stabilize the backup position. I just don't think he will do much to help us in these next couple weeks. Throw him out there now and I think people will want to chase him back where he came from. And that's only because its not likely he will be prepared.

 

Matt was on the downside of his career.  He came to Indy from Mike Holmgrens hybrid West Coast offense.  Not sure how different Pep's o was, but sure there is some playbook differences.  Neither here nor there, once Matt was called to duty he knew the Colts playbook.

 

JB will not get tossed out there until he has enough working knowledge of the playbook they can install a game plan for an opponent without restricting the available plays. Nobody knows how long that will take.  The Coaches know either ST or Morris will have to do what we planned before the trade... man up and go out and try to win (some) ballgames.  JB is the heir apparent though, sooner or later.

 

3 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I think tolzien and morris get cut eventually if they think brissett is the answer at back up

 

Down the road, definitely.  When?  Only time will tell.

[stitches]

Here's a pre-draft video on Brissett from Matt Waldman:

 

 

[B~Town]

1 minute ago, Jared Cisneros said:

The bolded is unfortunate, I hadn't seen any tape on him yet, and was hoping someone would say he was like Tyrod Taylor. Is he more like a poor man's Bridgewater?

Didn't that description remind you of this kid on our roster named Andrew Luck makes me think we found a backup that could fill in and we would not have to make major changes to the playbook . 

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, stitches said:

Here's a pre-draft video on Brissett from Matt Waldman:

 

 

Appreciate the video!

[ColtsBlueFL]

6 minutes ago, krunk said:

I dont think we traded for Brissett to be the immediate right now starter. He was third sting in New England and Dorsett was basically a backup himself. I think the opportunity presented itself and they made an even swap. I dont think Ballard put Phil on the market with the purposeful intent of finding a QB. It just worked itself out that way.

 

Belichick replenishes his 3rd string backup about every 2 years, it seems.  Using 'real' draft slots... not churning through loads of UDFA's searching for the uncut diamond.  He often showcases them, and gets needed value for his choices too.

 

It is reported (by Dorsett's agent) Ballard had many offers for him, but didn't really perk up until the JB for PD trade became a possibility.  It appears CB was interested in a good long term backup QB solution that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, (or a draft slot) using the underwhelming PD to get him.

[Yoshinator]

2 minutes ago, B~Town said:

Didn't that description remind you of this kid on our roster named Andrew Luck makes me think we found a backup that could fill in and we would not have to make major changes to the playbook . 

That's true, however, I wish we wouldn't even use Luck the way he is being used right now. It is good that they are similar though in style.

[krunk]

Just now, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

 

Matt was on the downside of his career.  He came to Indy from Mike Holmgrens hybrid West Coast offense.  Not sure how different Pep's o was, but sure there is some playbook differences.  Neither here nor there, once Matt was called to duty he knew the Colts playbook.

 

JB will not get tossed out there until he has enough working knowledge of the playbook they can install a game plan for an opponent without restricting the available plays. Nobody knows how long that will take.  The Coaches know either ST or Morris will have to do what we planned before the trade... man up and go out and try to win (some) ballgames.  JB is the heir apparent though, sooner or later.

 

 

Down the road, definitely.  When?  Only time will tell.

Not to carry this on too far but do you remember the style of offense we ran whenever Hass was in the game? It basically continued to be a West Coast offense. Remember TY and Moncrief complaining about all the stick and chain throws. I think they had to design the around Hass limitations. I can see us making some modifications for Brisett i guess but i still think all the other things that take time to come together will hinder the productivity. I could be wrong.

[Bluesmith]

17 minutes ago, stitches said:

Here's a pre-draft video on Brissett from Matt Waldman:

 

 

It looks like he is used to playing with a crappy O-Line, so that is a bonus for us.

[Fisticuffs111]

The more I think about it the more this move really does make sense long term.

Trying not to come off paranoid here, and I know this is the last thing people want to talk about, but if Luck were to ever re-injure his shoulder things would be really bleak. All it takes is one big hit or an awkward fall. I'm not talking career ending stuff, but to me they're going to be really cautious from here on out with Luck throughout his entire career. They're never going to try and pull a '16 where they just try and rehab and let him play through it, if he does ever hurt it again. That goes for any injury I think. They're going to take the better safe than sorry approach, like they are with this trade.

Obviously this move would make sense even without that possibility because it's football and people get hurt. But with Luck's shoulder going forward, it's smart to have a young guy with potential, especially for a few years on the cheap.

[CR91]

Brissett is wearing 15. kinda adding insult to injury  

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

9 hours ago, rock8591 said:

Gotta get this rant off my chest - the Dwayne Allen trade, we bent the Patriots over a barrel behind the woodshed.

 

DA = great guy, but one of the worst TEs in the league, paid like one of the best; largely on potential from his rookie season. If we had gotten a compensatory 7th rounder in the year 2020 for him, I would have been pleased, much less a 4th.

 

This trade will largely be the same; we get a legitimate backup QB for the next 10 years, get rid of a #4 or #5 WR who was a sunk cost (former 1st rounder), ala Ryan Leaf.

Serial killer Constanza guy gets it

[Synthetic]

13 hours ago, Coltsman1788 said:

 

His stats don't support that he stinks or that he is unworthy of a 2nd or 3rd string QB role in today's NFL.  That is the point.  There are much worse QBs out there holding clipboards this year. If he is asking for more money than teams are willing to pay that's one thing but the whole distraction bit like Riker1 says is a worn out excuse.  There are marginal players still in this league who have of done much worse.  Heck Riley Cooper was filmed making a racial slur in 2013 and went on to play that season and a couple more after that without near the backlash that Colin is getting. 

Colin Kaepernick Stats

• NFL
• College

Regular Season | Postseason

Passing Stats
SEASON	TEAM	GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	LNG	INT	FUM	QBR	RAT
2011	SF	3	3	5	60.0	35	7.00	0	19	0	0	76.4	81.3
2012	SF	13	136	218	62.4	1,814	8.32	10	57	3	2	75.3	98.3
2013		16	243	416	58.4	3,197	7.69	21	64	8	3	68.1	91.6
2014	SF	16	289	478	60.5	3,369	7.05	19	80	10	3	67.7	86.4
2015	SF	9	144	244	59.0	1,615	6.62	6	76	5	1	46.5	78.5
2016	SF	12	196	331	59.2	2,241	6.77	16	65	4	7	55.5	90.7
Career		69	1,011	1,692	59.8	12,271	7.25	72	80	30	16	--	88.9

 

 

 

 

 

 

Check the stats for the 49ers defense in Kaep's first 3 years. He didn't get there on his own. This team went 13-3 and won a playoff game with Alex Smith. That defense was in the top 5 every year between 2011 to 2014. These same arguments can be made for Russell Wilson, who everyone thinks is an elite QB even though he's been very average in his career depending on a defense to carry him.

 

Kaep got exposed late in 2012 and was never the same again. People are forgetting how bad he was in 2014, and 2015, and if it weren't for his political stuff, no one would be talking about him getting screwed. i support his right for freedom of speech, but that don't take away that he's a very mediocre quarterback. 

 

Go watch the SB he played in....Baltimore had him completely shut down UNTIL the power outage completely took away their momentum. Baltimore was cruising to a blow out in that SB, it would've been something like 41 to 10 or worse if the power don't go out and take away the big momentum they had. 

 

Counter point - check Ryan Tannehill's stats. He's one of the worst quarterbacks in the league, and yet he has nice stats too from time to time. 

[NewColtsFan]

9 hours ago, rock8591 said:

Gotta get this rant off my chest - the Dwayne Allen trade, we bent the Patriots over a barrel behind the woodshed.

 

DA = great guy, but one of the worst TEs in the league, paid like one of the best; largely on potential from his rookie season. If we had gotten a compensatory 7th rounder in the year 2020 for him, I would have been pleased, much less a 4th.

 

This trade will largely be the same; we get a legitimate backup QB for the next 10 years, get rid of a #4 or #5 WR who was a sunk cost (former 1st rounder), ala Ryan Leaf.

 

Ahhhh....   Ummmm...   Ehhhh...

 

Why do you think we have Brissett for the next 10 years?    We only have his rights for the next three years.    That's the remainder of his rookie contract.    At that point he'll be a free agent.    If Luck stays healthy,  odds are he'd want to go someplace where he might have a better chance to play.

 

we might find a way to keep JB,  but you can't bank on it.    We have him for three years.    Beyond that is a guess.

 

 

[Superman]

11 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't think you're even aware of what you've written the past few hours.     If you did,  then you wouldn't continue to ask some of the questions you have,  like the first sentence about 3rd string QB.

 

If Ballard traded for Brissett,  then he thinks Brissett is better than what he has on the roster.    If he was happy with Tolzein and/or Morris,  then this trade doesn't happen.      Why would you trade Dorsett for a QB if he wasn't the back-up?      You wouldn't.      Tolzein or Morris is likely to get cut at some point, and the other might start against the Rams.    But at some point,  Brissett was brought in to play this year.     I don't see us trading Dorsett with the PRIMARY purpose being 2018.

 

There's no reason for you to ask over and over and over what does Brissett do better than Morris because we're all fans and our opinions don't matter.     Ballard's does and while this could turn into a terrible trade,  we're talking about the here and now for right here,  and right now,  Chris Ballard favors Jacoby Brissett.    If he thought Morris or Tolzein was better than Brissett then he would not have made the trade.    Logic says so.

 

You can make all the arguments you want that oppose the view of a GM....   we've all done it.    Certainly I have.    I just don't think a single argument you've made has an ounce of logic to it.    I think early on you arrived stating Morris = Brissett and you have repeatedly defended that.     That's why I think you're so adament.    You don't want to back away from your original position.    That's why I think we're here.    

 

You have repeatedly downplayed Brissett.   A guy who in his three career NFL regular season games, has completely nearly 62 percent.    And this pre-season,  it's nearly 68 percent.    And I think you said he had accuracy issues.    His stats say not so much.     The facts are with Brissett and Ballard,  they're not with you.     History may judge you to be correct,  but we're not talking the future,  we're talking right now and right now,  you don't have an argument that resonates.

 

I don't find anything sacriligious....   seriously,  at least not when it comes to football.    I'm just looking for an argument that moves the needle and I haven't seen one in any of your posts.     And you have no greater admirer than me.    

 

You're making a lot of assumptions. You're also accusing me of saying things I didn't say. 

 

And the thing that sparked this all is that I had the nerve to try to discuss the way two guys play QB. If that's not a discussion you want to engage in, don't. But don't tell me there's something wrong with asking the question. And especially don't twist my arguments on the basis of your assumptions.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Belichick replenishes his 3rd string backup about every 2 years, it seems.  Using 'real' draft slots... not churning through loads of UDFA's searching for the uncut diamond.  He often showcases them, and gets needed value for his choices too.

 

It is reported (by Dorsett's agent) Ballard had many offers for him, but didn't really perk up until the JB for PD trade became a possibility.  It appears CB was interested in a good long term backup QB solution that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, (or a draft slot) using the underwhelming PD to get him.

 

Ehh, besides Matt Cassell, this is the only time his backup has returned good value for him. And that is yet to be determined, although I think Dorsett can do well there. 

 

There's also Jimmy G, who they clearly don't want to move. I'm curious what will happen next year, since he's a free agent.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, GoPats said:

 

In 2007, one of the reasons they were tough to stop is that teams had to account for Stallworth on the outside - at its most basic level it's just having two guys who can really burn. Stallworth didn't have a huge year but he contributed to Moss' success and helped open up the short

middle stuff for Welker. So this trade gives them two guys (Cooks is obviously the other) who can get downfield in a hurry. The way Atlanta had success early in in the SB was by jamming the middle of the field. If teams do that now, they'll be better equipped to try to make them pay for it. I like Chris Hogan but he's not a true deep threat. And Cooks is by no means Randy Moss, but a different kind of player all together. He won't catch as many contested balls but will still get behind the D in a hurry. Lastly, this'll help open up the seams for Gronk, that's one of their bread and butter plays. The safeties will have to draw over at times if Dorsett and Cooks are running go routes. 

 

So Indy never used him on punt returns really, did they? Was he too shaky back there or were they trying to keep him from taking too many hits? 

 

I really like Chris Hogan, he's better than Amendola for sure, and would be an adequate replacement for Edelman if necessary. Cooks and Dorsett in that group is going to stress defenses in many ways, including what you've stated already. 

 

We tried Dorsett as a punt returner a couple of times, but he didn't handle the ball well. One of those times was in his very first game, on the road against Buffalo. He muffed one in a critical spot. From there, it might have been in his head. The staff never gave him another shot back there.

[NewColtsFan]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

You're making a lot of assumptions. You're also accusing me of saying things I didn't say. 

 

And the thing that sparked this all is that I had the nerve to try to discuss the way two guys play QB. If that's not a discussion you want to engage in, don't. But don't tell me there's something wrong with asking the question. And especially don't twist my arguments on the basis of your assumptions.

 

You made a number of assumptions yourself.    I just made different ones,  and you didn't agree with them.

 

You can ask all the questions you like but the comment that started all this was Morris roughly equals Brissett.

 

Brissett has a small body of work in NFL regular season games.    Yes, a small body of work.    Morris has a small body of work in pre-season games mostly against back-ups.   I don't think that's comparable.

 

So you pressed on physical traits to compare the two.    I've already explained why that is nothing more than an intellectual exercise,  a matter of opinion.   Nothing definitive.   

 

So so here we are.   

 

To to be clear...   I'm fine with the trade and agree with you that Dorsett could turn into what we thought he could be.    I fear we gave up on him too soon.    But if Ballard felt the need to make a deal at the most important position on the field, then I'm OK with it,  I'll support him.

 

Im sorry we couldn't agree on this.   You're still my guy, my go-to guy.    I look forward to seeing you this season!

 

 

 

[ColtsBlueFL]

34 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Ehh, besides Matt Cassell, this is the only time his backup has returned good value for him. And that is yet to be determined, although I think Dorsett can do well there. 

 

There's also Jimmy G, who they clearly don't want to move. I'm curious what will happen next year, since he's a free agent.

 

If Brady is back in full next year, Belichick the GM will get Belichick the HC a new QB in the draft.  This upcoming year is likely a good opportunity to try to get one.  Then hope Brady lasts until at least the new guy has some playbook knowledge and experience under his belt.

 

If Brady is not back (or, heaven forbis, released) then they sign Jimmy, or Franchise tag him until they do.  I still think BB gets a new QB in the draft... again no matter what.  Who and what round?  We'll see.

[IndySouthsider]

Seems Dorset was never going to be a Ballard guy.

 

Thems the breaks. Reminds me of when Grigson traded Hughes.

[horseshoecrabs]

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 2:12 PM, IndyEric07 said:

 

 

 

 

Any qb in the league can be good in the Pats system! Brissett wont show as well in the Colts system!

you got that right!

[horseshoecrabs]

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 2:12 PM, IndyEric07 said:

 

 

 

 

Any qb in the league can be good in the Pats system! Brissett wont show as well in the Colts system!

you got that right!