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Harris or Haynesworth?


nicky6times
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Is this a joke?

As of right now, we don't even know if Harris will make the final roster until we see what he has left in the tank based on the health of his knees and the fact he was a healthy scratch for the majority of last year

Haynesworthless's issues are from the neck-up and nothing to do with his sheer dominating physical ability, nor does he have any injury concerns like Harris has

If we were getting the 2006 Tommie Harris, I'd still rather the 2008 DPOY Haynesworth (assuming he's motivated)

I understand the excitement of seeing what Harris was able to do 2+ years ago, but we have zero idea what we can realistically expect out of him as of right now

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I'll take Harris over Haynesworth any day. Personally I think Haynesworth should have been banned for life after the Gurode incident. Sure emotions can run high during a game and fights are not uncommon, but to stomp the face of another player with your clete while he's laying on his back on the ground is simply inexcusable. An act like that shows a level of instability that should not be tolerated....ever.

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I think Tommie will be blessed...he seems like a colt already...players get hurt and it takes time to get back...he will be on a rotation with the likes of johnson revis...when will people start trusting colts managment...its like dungy always said...fotball is won by a few plays here and there...with a healthy colts squad I wouldn't bet aginst them

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I love the homeristic takes on Harris v. Haynesworth. If the roles would have been reversed this board would have been all over Big Al as the clear best fit for Indy.

The fact is they both have big red flags. Both come with risks but are high reward for the Pats and Colts.

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i like how ppl are getting angry about this..haha

yes they both have red flags..yes we all know what they are..thats what makes this a good question in my mind..in their prime i would still take harris tho..always thought he was the best..big al is a big bruiser who can be as elite as they come but has questionable play @ times..thats why i take harris..his play was flawless

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Haynesworth has no red flags.

He didn't play well last season for two reasons: The 3-4 defense and Mike Shanahan.

Tommie Harris didn't play well last season for three reasons: His left knee, his right knee, and Lovie Smith.

Haynesworth definitely has red flags. His mental stability, his desire to play, his "me first" attitude and he clearly has demonstrated a violent streak that is beyond what is acceptable in the NFL. It's easy to blame him not playing last year on the 3-4 defense, but if he were a truly dedicated player he would have learned the system and done whatever he could to help the team. He also would have kept himself in shape and wouldn't have been failing physicals.

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His mental stability,

How so?

his desire to play,

He went to the Redskins cause they told him he'd be featured in a 4-3, and they switched it on him. Can't blame the guy for requesting a trade/release.

his "me first" attitude

How so?

and he clearly has demonstrated a violent streak that is beyond what is acceptable in the NFL.

Never saw anything that compares to James Harrison.

but if he were a truly dedicated player he would have learned the system and done whatever he could to help the team.

Didn't need to 'learn' the system, it was just an issue of him being doubled a lot more and his effectiveness going down in a 3-4. The guy had no loyalty to the team then the fact he had signed a contract. The man still had his rights.

He also would have kept himself in shape and wouldn't have been failing physicals.

That's was widely acknowledged as a shame by Shanahan to keep him off the field and to 'teach him a lesson'.

Sorry, When I look at these guys I see a 3-time pro bowler who is starting to have injury issues vs the most dominant defensive lineman in the game, who's only fault was that he decided to sign for money instead of going to a better team. (bit him in the butt, too.)

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Given that he asked which one in their prime, Id take Harris.

He was unblockable.

Haynesworth was good, but his size is his advantage, not his speed.

On the Colts, speed is better than size, especially when its used properly (in Harris' case).

Single out the player from the team and it might be different, but for a guy playing with the rest of the Colts players, Harris in his prime is the better fit.

Blewcrew, sorry, but Haynesworth has HUGE red flags. Why do you think no other team wanted him before now?

He let himself go thru the season and failed a physical for the Skins just last year, and has had major motivational issues.

It was reported long ago when people here first started talking about him coming to the Colts that he took plays off.

And his anger issues, well, if you think there are no red flags, I cant help you.

Oh, and Harris only had issues with his left knee. MCL sprain with no surgery, then a surgery to clean it up, then the hamstring tear...but that was around 09, so he should be getting back to 100% now.

Sometimes it takes a while to recover, especially when injuries are in succession like his were.

Not to mention he and the Bears (rumored) had a falling out (he was benched for a game and seemed to have no idea why).

As to right now, well, Haynesworth is an unknown too. He hasnt played in how long now? Failed physical, not much play last year, and with the lockout, no-one knows what kind of shape he is in now. He did at least pass his physical this time, but only time will tell which one is actually in "football shape".

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Haynesworth has no red flags.

He didn't play well last season for two reasons: The 3-4 defense and Mike Shanahan.

Tommie Harris didn't play well last season for three reasons: His left knee, his right knee, and Lovie Smith.

Haynesworth has no red flags?

Aside from recent legal troubles he has never played hard in a season that did have a contract on the line. He only really gave effort in 2 seasons with the Titans - both contract years.

Not playing hard would seem to me to be a huge red flag.

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Haynesworth has no red flags.

He didn't play well last season for two reasons: The 3-4 defense and Mike Shanahan.

Tommie Harris didn't play well last season for three reasons: His left knee, his right knee, and Lovie Smith.

I don't know about that, even his team mates were critical of him in his last year in DC. Personally I think Haynesworth is locker room poison.

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They were just upset that he wasn't playing when they really could of used him, but it was more on Shanahan later on cause he kept flunking him on the physicals!

Also, all that was said about him was before he even started playing with the team, In other words, he wasn't in the locker-room. So how could he be a locker-room poison if he wasn't even in the locker-room when all this went down??

On top of that, he was [widely] considered a great team-mate when he was with the Titans.

I think both guys have great upside, but Haynesworth was at a higher level when they were both at their primes in '09. Plus, since one guy was mainly hampered by injury and the other was not, I'm going to automatically defer to the non-injured player, regardless of the fact Albert was a better player.

I remember seeing the Pro Bowl Haynesworth went to the year before he became a free agent, and how Reggie was "recruiting" guys, and they showed Reggie with Dwight [and I think Robert] next to Haynesworth, talking about how they would make an unstoppable force on the d-line... Basically I'm saying that regardless of being division foes, they were still on pretty chummy terms. Doesn't really scream poor-character guy to me.

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They were just upset that he wasn't playing when they really could of used him, but it was more on Shanahan later on cause he kept flunking him on the physicals!

Also, all that was said about him was before he even started playing with the team, In other words, he wasn't in the locker-room. So how could he be a locker-room poison if he wasn't even in the locker-room when all this went down??

On top of that, he was [widely] considered a great team-mate when he was with the Titans.

I think both guys have great upside, but Haynesworth was at a higher level when they were both at their primes in '09. Plus, since one guy was mainly hampered by injury and the other was not, I'm going to automatically defer to the non-injured player, regardless of the fact Albert was a better player.

I remember seeing the Pro Bowl Haynesworth went to the year before he became a free agent, and how Reggie was "recruiting" guys, and they showed Reggie with Dwight [and I think Robert] next to Haynesworth, talking about how they would make an unstoppable force on the d-line... Basically I'm saying that regardless of being division foes, they were still on pretty chummy terms. Doesn't really scream poor-character guy to me.

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If there were no monetary issues and I had to pick right now I would pick Haynesworth. I say this for a few reasons. First, Harris is smaller. If neither one can push the O-Linemen backwards Haynesworth's big self still makes the RB run around him more and there is not as big of a hole. that extra second would give our speedy defense time to make a Tackle. Second, I would take someone with attitude problems over someone with health problems. Sure Albert was out of shape to say the least last year, but that can be fixed. I also do not feel he would bring his attitude to the Colts organization because Shannahan is not here. Harris on the other hand needs to rely on his ability to be quick off the snap. How are you quick off the snap? With your knees! With his former knee problems, I would see Harris as more of a risk in that department than Haynesworth.

Don't get me wrong I am very excited to see what Harris can do for us this year, but if I was the GM I would choose Albert for the two reasons listed above.

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View PostJason, on 04 August 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

His mental stability,

How so? He lost his temper and stomped on Andre Gurode scraping his cleete across Andre's face while Andre was lying on the ground flat on his back. It's one thing to let emotion get the better of you and get into a push/shove match or even throw a punch, but to stomp on someone's face while they're in a defenseless position like that is beyond ridiculous. Also, he made news the following week (I believe) by getting into a violent altercation with a teammate during practice.

View PostJason, on 04 August 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

his desire to play,

He went to the Redskins cause they told him he'd be featured in a 4-3, and they switched it on him. Can't blame the guy for requesting a trade/release. In that scenario you are correct, I couldn't blame the guy for requesting a trade in such a situation. However he did more than just request a trade. He made no effort to learn the 3-4. His stats are more than enough evidence to prove he made no effort to learn the new system so he could do something to help the team while he was there.

G GS Comb Total Ast Sck

2010 Washington Redskins 8 0 16 13 3 2.5

He played in 8 games but didn't start in any of them. If he had done his part to learn the system during the off-season then wouldn't it stand to reason he would have played in more than 8 games and at least made 1 start as opposed to Zero?

View PostJason, on 04 August 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

his "me first" attitude

How so? See above. If he were a "team player" he would have put in the effort to learn the 3-4 so that he could have helped the team.

View PostJason, on 04 August 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

and he clearly has demonstrated a violent streak that is beyond what is acceptable in the NFL.

Never saw anything that compares to James Harrison. See Gurode incident explained above.

View PostJason, on 04 August 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

but if he were a truly dedicated player he would have learned the system and done whatever he could to help the team.

Didn't need to 'learn' the system, it was just an issue of him being doubled a lot more and his effectiveness going down in a 3-4. The guy had no loyalty to the team then the fact he had signed a contract. The man still had his rights. He has rights? What about the rights of the Redskins who paid him an insane amount of money? Didn't they also have the right to get some dividends for the money they paid?

View PostJason, on 04 August 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

He also would have kept himself in shape and wouldn't have been failing physicals.

That's was widely acknowledged as a shame by Shanahan to keep him off the field and to 'teach him a lesson'. I'm not sure what you mean. My point was he showed up to training camp and failed his first physical. He was upset about the situation and just didn't care.

Sorry, When I look at these guys I see a 3-time pro bowler who is starting to have injury issues vs the most dominant defensive lineman in the game, who's only fault was that he decided to sign for money instead of going to a better team. (bit him in the butt, too.)

I'm kind of surprised at myself for taking the time to answer your questions considering the answers should be glaringly obvious. But, my replies are in red.

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Such a thing doesn't exist on the Patriots. They'd cut him before they let him become a problem.

Yes, they would. And that is one of the better things about the Patriots. I' like to think that the Colts would do the same. It's a shame that more teams can't find ways to grow a backbone and deal with players like this. The Redskins rolled out the red carpet for the guy, which was nice, but failed absolutely in how they handled him, and how they handled his malcontent. That's not to say that the Redskins weren't at fault at all, after all it's the Redskins, but Haynesworth is an employee and no matter how poorly he thinks they're using his skills, he still has to give 100% to the team. That's what he's paid the millions for. If I acted as he has towards my employer, I would not be working today. That reality is sadly lacking for the NFL players.

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Not even a close question.

Haynesworth, by a mile.

Easy reason: Harris has no right knee. He hasn't played well in THREE YEARS.

Haynesworth, if motivated (and yes, that's the issue), has much more ability and promise.

Harris has no right knee, hey .... if that's so true,think maybe the Colts ought to do better homework on a player's health before agreeing to shell out a million bucks?

I have a feeling that all these "his knees are shot / he has no knee" posturings are simply unfounded nonsense. If the guy's knees were so shot or if he had no knee, I hardly think the Colts would waste their time.

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I'm kind of surprised at myself for taking the time to answer your questions considering the answers should be glaringly obvious. But, my replies are in red.

Your post was a great one.

The most basic point to me is that any player, whether they are paid vet minimum or are on a $100 million multi-year deal, has to turn up for work every day, just like you and I. OK he thinks 3-4 doesn't suit him. But if that's what the team wants, then it's his job as a professional athlete to do his very best to make it happen. He didn't. He became a petulant child and hurt the team doing it.

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Harris has no right knee, hey .... if that's so true,think maybe the Colts ought to do better homework on a player's health before agreeing to shell out a million bucks?

I have a feeling that all these "his knees are shot / he has no knee" posturings are simply unfounded nonsense. If the guy's knees were so shot or if he had no knee, I hardly think the Colts would waste their time.

He will be a great mentor for NEVIS & with #'s reps in a rotation will play fine, just not like the stud he was

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:blah:

He lost his temper and stomped on Andre Gurode scraping his cleete across Andre's face while Andre was lying on the ground flat on his back. It's one thing to let emotion get the better of you and get into a push/shove match or even throw a punch, but to stomp on someone's face while they're in a defenseless position like that is beyond ridiculous. Also, he made news the following week (I believe) by getting into a violent altercation with a teammate during practice.

I don't really remember the Gurode incident in much detail, But I believe that was back in '06. The guy matured a lot in those years before taking a step back last season. As for the following incident, I don't think I remember that at all, but it probably had something to do with Cortland Finnegan. :loco:

As for Harris being less of a risk, apparently everyone is forgetting that Harris straight-up punched Deauce Lutui in the face a couple seasons ago.

In that scenario you are correct, I couldn't blame the guy for requesting a trade in such a situation. However he did more than just request a trade. He made no effort to learn the 3-4. His stats are more than enough evidence to prove he made no effort to learn the new system so he could do something to help the team while he was there.

Once again, you're missing my point. Shanahan was trying to change the way he played the DT position. He wanted him to be a primarily run-stopping DT to basically just take up space. Haynesworth has always been 'go-for-the-QB' style player. That's basically like telling Peyton 'change the way you reads defenses. Oh, and you can only throw side-arm. Go!'

G GS Comb Total Ast Sck

2010 Washington Redskins 8 0 16 13 3 2.5

Aaaand these stats mean nothing. He never started and he hardly played in those games.

He played in 8 games but didn't start in any of them. If he had done his part to learn the system during the off-season then wouldn't it stand to reason he would have played in more than 8 games and at least made 1 start as opposed to Zero?

He didn't learn the playbook at the beginning because he requested a trade. Once he tried to come back (week 3 or 4 I believe) there was the whole physical issue. (getting to that...)

See above. If he were a "team player" he would have put in the effort to learn the 3-4 so that he could have helped the team.

Besides the actual call-signs, there wasn't anything to learn! As I said before, Shanahan had planned on playing him as a run-stopper, but post-holdout Shanahan played him almost exclusively on Nickel-packages. (In case you don't know, that's 5 DBs and usually just rushing your linemen.) So it was 3 D-lineman on 5 to 6 blockers everytime. Not the best environment for production as a sack producing DT.

He has rights? What about the rights of the Redskins who paid him an insane amount of money? Didn't they also have the right to get some dividends for the money they paid?

It goes both ways. He had the right to not show up, and forfeited a load of money from that first-year on the contract. When he came back, the team had a right to not play him, and they hardly did.

I'm not sure what you mean. My point was he showed up to training camp and failed his first physical. He was upset about the situation and just didn't care.

For a player in his situation it's not necessary for a player to undergo a physical before returning to the team. It came out from one of the insiders (it was either Schefter or Mort, I don't remember) that Shanahan (both coach and GM) was putting the passing-grade on the physical waaay too high as a way to publicly embarrass Haynesworth, and also delay his return to the team. Basically it's like Haynesworth coming back and Shanahan saying 'we don't really need you'. So that upset Haynesworth, caused more strife, and that was way they didn't hardly play him afterwards, let-alone start him.

Anywho, I don't usually do these quote-by-quote response, and I'm starting to remember why.. I'mma leave these to Jaric and Camio. :nutz:

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Who do you think?... I don't care if a guy hates a 3-4, but a real player should leave his hate OFF the field. When you don't put solid effort on the field despite an excellent paying contract, then you're trash. I just feel sorry for all of Haynesworth's D-Line teammates who were fighting to make the play while his fat *** was on the turf.

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Yeah, since he didn't get up for one play that gives Harris more upside.

Overall, That's a horrible point... pretty funny video though!! lol

To tell you the truth I'm not really a fan of either one of these guys, but Haynesworth still has better upside.

And we can talk about this until the cows come home, but we'll conclude this with a lil stat comparison at the end of the year. :)

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:blah:

Once again, you're missing my point. Shanahan was trying to change the way he played the DT position. He wanted him to be a primarily run-stopping DT to basically just take up space. Haynesworth has always been 'go-for-the-QB' style player. That's basically like telling Peyton 'change the way you reads defenses. Oh, and you can only throw side-arm. Go!' If he were a true team player and wasn't concerned only with his stats (which would lead to bonuses) then he'd learn to play the position the way the coaching staff wanted him to so that he would fit into the system

Aaaand these stats mean nothing. He never started and he hardly played in those games. The fact that he didn't play much in those games WAS the point. He refused to learn to play the position the way the coaching staff wanted him to. Once upon a time, the coaches were the one in charge...not the players.

He didn't learn the playbook at the beginning because he requested a trade. Once he tried to come back (week 3 or 4 I believe) there was the whole physical issue. (getting to that...) Again you proved my point. He refused to learn the system because he didn't want to play the way the coaches wanted him to so he preferred to "take his ball and go home" like a child who didn't get their way. Just because you request a trade doesn't mean that you'll get it.

Besides the actual call-signs, Really? You think call signs are the only thing he'd have to learn to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4?!? there wasn't anything to learn! As I said before, Shanahan had planned on playing him as a run-stopper, but post-holdout Shanahan played him almost exclusively on Nickel-packages. (In case you don't know, that's 5 DBs and usually just rushing your linemen.) So it was 3 D-lineman on 5 to 6 blockers everytime. Not the best environment for production as a sack producing DT. Really? Thank you for pointing out that nickel means 5 db's...I had no idea [/sarcasm]. A standard Nickel defense is 4 DL, 2 LB and 5 DB's. However even if a 3-4 team uses a nickel package of 3 DL, 3 LB and 5 DB's then usually at least 1 of the LB's are also going to be rushing the passer.

Anywho, I don't usually do these quote-by-quote response, and I'm starting to remember why.. I'mma leave these to Jaric and Camio. :nutz:

I believe it's been stated already but I'm going to reiterate....I can't help you. :)

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Yeah, since he didn't get up for one play that gives Harris more upside.

Overall, That's a horrible point... pretty funny video though!! lol

To tell you the truth I'm not really a fan of either one of these guys, but Haynesworth still has better upside.

And we can talk about this until the cows come home, but we'll conclude this with a lil stat comparison at the end of the year. :)

Dude, you like Haynesworth more and that is fine. But you are glossing some major character issues. His effort has always been questioned. Always. Dungy himself said as much earlier this week - essentially that he only played hard in contract years and otherwise, was not much of a factor.

The point is both players have had past issues (health and otherwise) and are in the situation they are now where because of those. More power to them if they take advantage of the 2nd chance they have been given.

To the question of potential - they both have/had tremendous ability.

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Yeah, since he didn't get up for one play that gives Harris more upside.

Overall, That's a horrible point... pretty funny video though!! lol

Not really. How many other D-Linemen in the league do you see with 100-M dollar contracts simply give up on a play? It would be different if he was tired or injured, but he was neither. He seriously just pushed a tad to look convincing, faked a fall, then laid there. Even the o-lineman felt confused. Meanwhile, his D-Line teammate had to run AROUND Haynesworth! His D-Line teammates hadn't given up on the play, so why should Haynesworth? Look at #99 for sake of comparison.

That one play speaks volumes on Haynesworth's character.

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Not really. How many other D-Linemen in the league do you see with 100-M dollar contracts simply give up on a play? It would be different if he was tired or injured, but he was neither. He seriously just pushed a tad to look convincing, faked a fall, then laid there. Even the o-lineman felt confused. Meanwhile, his D-Line teammate had to run AROUND Haynesworth! His D-Line teammates hadn't given up on the play, so why should Haynesworth? Look at #99 for sake of comparison.

That one play speaks volumes on Haynesworth's character.

couldn't agree more :)

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Your post was a great one.

The most basic point to me is that any player, whether they are paid vet minimum or are on a $100 million multi-year deal, has to turn up for work every day, just like you and I. OK he thinks 3-4 doesn't suit him. But if that's what the team wants, then it's his job as a professional athlete to do his very best to make it happen. He didn't. He became a petulant child and hurt the team doing it.

Warren Sapp got moved to 3-4 end in Oakland, and even though it was a waste of his talent, he played his butt off every down. Was never overweight and out of shape, didn't demand a trade, didn't hold out. There's a right way and a wrong way to handle that kind of situation. Haynesworth was just as wrong as the coaches were for trying to play him out of position (he's not a nose tackle, and it was stupid of them to try to make him a nose tackle).

I don't think that makes him a bad person. I don't claim to be able to judge a person's character based off of a few moments throughout his career. But I do question his work ethic and his ability to be a good teammate. He's still got the tools to be a top five DT, but only if he's in shape and he works hard and does what the coaches ask him to do.

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