2017-2018 Indiana Pacers and Everything NBA Thread

[oldunclemark]

4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

DeRozan gets a lot of hype. I actually think Oladipo is a better player.

I'd like to have both of them so I can analyze that question.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

I'd like to have both of them so I can analyze that question.

I would like to have DeRozan but we would have to give up to much for him IMO.

[21isSuperman]

11 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Those are interesting..

The DeRozen to San Antonio deal they lay out really favors the Spurs, though. Toronto wont give up DeRozen and OG

Supe....I think San Antonio MUST trade Leonard the same way we HAD TO trade Paul George.

They don't have a choice...

 

Does anybody truly see a scenario where Kawhi goes back to San Antonio and continues his playing career.

I do not.

I do think Kawhi is leaving San Antonio, but I don't think he's going to Toronto

[oldunclemark]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I would like to have DeRozan but we would have to give up to much for him IMO.

..DeRozen averaged 23 a game and he averages 19 for life.

You've said it many times. To contend for a championship, you need at least two top players.

 

What would you give up for DeMar DeRozen or Kawhi Leonard?

 

1 minute ago, 21isSuperman said:

I do think Kawhi is leaving San Antonio, but I don't think he's going to Toronto

Do you see him coming to Indiana !!!

[oldunclemark]

  Either we play Turner and Sabonis together or we trade one of them.

Maybe not this summer..but eventually....that's the reality

Both are highly skilled and young.....but if we use one as the backup for the other, we're sitting one of our top players all the time.

 

We have a young center...in training in  Ike Anibogu..who will be more of a backup and defensive specialist

In my mind, if we are going to make a significant trade (our management may not want to...a lot of us may not want to) our tradable player is Myles Turner

Edited May 12, 2018 by oldunclemark

[oldunclemark]

8 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

I do think Kawhi is leaving San Antonio, but I don't think he's going to Toronto

He's from Los Angeles..but everybody cant play for the Lakers

[2006Coltsbestever]

29 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

..DeRozen averaged 23 a game and he averages 19 for life.

You've said it many times. To contend for a championship, you need at least two top players.

 

What would you give up for DeMar DeRozen or Kawhi Leonard?

 

Do you see him coming to Indiana !!!

A healthy Leonard is much better than DeRozan, I would give up more for Leonard. Not sure what though.

[Colts_Fan12]

6 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

DeRozan gets a lot of hype. I actually think Oladipo is a better player.

He most definitely is 

[Colts_Fan12]

I'd be willing to trade anyone not named Oladipo or Turner for Leonard 

[21isSuperman]

2 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

Do you see him coming to Indiana !!!

As much as I'd like to see it, I don't think Kawhi is coming to Indy.  I think he's going to a big market team, LA or New York or possibly Boston.

[Luck is Good]

Pacers need to make a splash that is heard around the NBA. Go get Kawhi Leonard. And this East Finals, maybe the Celtics have a chance. And Jayson Tatum is the X Factor

[Chrisaaron1023]

Wow.. but cavs will win 4 outta 5

[oldunclemark]

20 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

A healthy Leonard is much better than DeRozan, I would give up more for Leonard. Not sure what though.

But Leonard isn't healthy..or isn't wiling to play.....which is the only reason they'd trade him.

That's why the deal would get made

Cavs not ready to play...61-35 at the half.....Boston keeping them off the 3-line..

JR and Korver getting nothing.

 

I sure didn't expect this

[oldunclemark]

108-83..for Boston....They were ready..Cavs didnt seem to feel the game was crucial

[Chrisaaron1023]

I fully expect the Cleveland LeBron's to respond with a 45 point 18 board. 5 point win on Tuesday

[2006Coltsbestever]

LOL, it is all his Role Players fault. LeBron put up a whopping 15 Points on 5-16 shooting, not sure why that shouldn't be enough to beat a team full of backups? Go Boston! I can understand losing to the Warriors but I cant wait to hear the excuses for LeBron if they lose to Boston without Kyrie and Hayward.

[oldunclemark]

3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

LOL, it is all his Role Players fault. LeBron put up a whopping 15 Points on 5-16 shooting, not sure why that shouldn't be enough to beat a team full of backups? Go Boston! I can understand losing to the Warriors but I cant wait to hear the excuses for LeBron if they lose to Boston without Kyrie and Hayward.

This game was all on LeBron....Morris played him well...and I have to give credit to a certain pretty boy coach who inserted Morris into the staring lineup..

.....Wonder if Boston could have held Oladipo to 15 points and seven turnovers

[2006Coltsbestever]

On ESPN, they have about 20 or so people predict who is going to win each series. There was 1 person who picked the Pacers to win LOL and LeBron fans act like the Cavs were the underdog. Same with this series against the Celtics, 1 person picked the Celtics that is Marc Spears. If they lose LeBron fans will be like but Boston has had a better team. Boston doesn't have a better team with Kyrie and Hayward out, you guys that love LeBron in here need to quit making excuses for him when he loses because I already see it coming if he does. There is no way he, Love, Korver, and JR should lose to the Celtics when they don't even have Kyrie. That would be embarrassing IMO. I am not underestimating Boston and think they are Good with who they have but give me a break. If LBJ is the GOAT and loses to a team without their best player, how can anyone justify that one? Boston doesn't have 1 guy playing right now that even made the All-Star team. Boston needs to watch the REFS in Game 2, because this is where they normally officiate goofy when LeBron is down a game in a series. At least Boston has HCA where we didn't, so if it goes 7 it will be in Boston.

[oldunclemark]

For those of you who have watched Purdue...

 

*Vince Edwards  6-8, 220

14.6 points, 7.4 rebounds  39% - 3s...83%   FTs

....a 2nd your choice for the Pacers........good at a lot of things..not great at anything..

...would he fit with us?

 

*Dakota Mathias  6-4, 200

12 points, 4.1 rebounds...3.9 assists

46% - 3s.....82% FTs

Not a great athlete..not a lead guard.

But all Big-10 on defense and set Purdue records shooting 3s....

 

Neither are 1st round choices....Mathias may not be drafted at all.

What do you think of either of these boys on the Pacers?/

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

For those of you who have watched Purdue...

 

*Vince Edwards  6-8, 220

14.6 points, 7.4 rebounds  39% - 3s...83%   FTs

....a 2nd your choice for the Pacers........good at a lot of things..not great at anything..

...would he fit with us?

 

*Dakota Mathias  6-4, 200

12 points, 4.1 rebounds...3.9 assists

46% - 3s.....82% FTs

Not a great athlete..not a lead guard.

But all Big-10 on defense and set Purdue records shooting 3s....

 

Neither are 1st round choices....Mathias may not be drafted at all.

What do you think of either of these boys on the Pacers?/

It would be great if we brought everyone back and nailed our Draft pick. Kyle Kuzma went 27th and look how good he is already. So who knows.

[dgambill]

9 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

On ESPN, they have about 20 or so people predict who is going to win each series. There was 1 person who picked the Pacers to win LOL and LeBron fans act like the Cavs were the underdog. Same with this series against the Celtics, 1 person picked the Celtics that is Marc Spears. If they lose LeBron fans will be like but Boston has had a better team. Boston doesn't have a better team with Kyrie and Hayward out, you guys that love LeBron in here need to quit making excuses for him when he loses because I already see it coming if he does. There is no way he, Love, Korver, and JR should lose to the Celtics when they don't even have Kyrie. That would be embarrassing IMO. I am not underestimating Boston and think they are Good with who they have but give me a break. If LBJ is the GOAT and loses to a team without their best player, how can anyone justify that one? Boston doesn't have 1 guy playing right now that even made the All-Star team. Boston needs to watch the REFS in Game 2, because this is where they normally officiate goofy when LeBron is down a game in a series. At least Boston has HCA where we didn't, so if it goes 7 it will be in Boston.

Look...I'm not a Lebron follower....and we don't have to keep comparing him to MJ. Since he has lost in the finals there is no way he can go 6-0...so he can never live up to MJ....we get it. But I remember all of MJ's career. My best friend in school was obsessed with him. I also remember MJ losing games in the playoffs and also having bad games in the playoffs. Not many but he did. I remember Nick Anderson stripping the ball from him with the game on the line one of 8 turnovers in a poor shooting game. It happens my friend. I think it is pretty plain to see that no player in the NBA carries more weight of his team...is responsible for more of the team's offense through assists and points...and does more to put his team in right place to win then Lebron. He already has two game winning shots, multiple triple doubles, along with several 40 pt performances in these playoffs...go ahead and cherry pick his bad performances. I know you consider him the top 5-10 ever to play yet you dog him at every step of the way. I want him to lose as badly as anyone but if you can't be objective and see the elite greatness that he plays with and be amazed at his play on the court then that's fine. Just giving him lip service and saying...he is great....but but but that to me is false praise and just a way to cover your butt so you can take a dig at the guy every chance you get. Just because you call him great doesn't mean your not transparent my friend. Your hate for Lebron far exceeds your ability to treat him fairly. I don't think there is a single player in this league that you replace Lebron with would get the Cavs to the playoffs. He does so much. Instead of dogging the guy on a bad game...why not praise the Celtics and Morris and Stevens for doing an incredible job of defending him and game planning for him. That was text book awesome performance. I marvel more of how well they defended him more then trying to take away from Lebrons greatness. To me that diminishes the Celtics Game 1 performance. The whole Cavs team played awful outside perhaps Tristen Thompson....that was a masterful Celtics performance there. Let's recognize that.

[2006Coltsbestever]

26 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Look...I'm not a Lebron follower....and we don't have to keep comparing him to MJ. Since he has lost in the finals there is no way he can go 6-0...so he can never live up to MJ....we get it. But I remember all of MJ's career. My best friend in school was obsessed with him. I also remember MJ losing games in the playoffs and also having bad games in the playoffs. Not many but he did. I remember Nick Anderson stripping the ball from him with the game on the line one of 8 turnovers in a poor shooting game. It happens my friend. I think it is pretty plain to see that no player in the NBA carries more weight of his team...is responsible for more of the team's offense through assists and points...and does more to put his team in right place to win then Lebron. He already has two game winning shots, multiple triple doubles, along with several 40 pt performances in these playoffs...go ahead and cherry pick his bad performances. I know you consider him the top 5-10 ever to play yet you dog him at every step of the way. I want him to lose as badly as anyone but if you can't be objective and see the elite greatness that he plays with and be amazed at his play on the court then that's fine. Just giving him lip service and saying...he is great....but but but that to me is false praise and just a way to cover your butt so you can take a dig at the guy every chance you get. Just because you call him great doesn't mean your not transparent my friend. Your hate for Lebron far exceeds your ability to treat him fairly. I don't think there is a single player in this league that you replace Lebron with would get the Cavs to the playoffs. He does so much. Instead of dogging the guy on a bad game...why not praise the Celtics and Morris and Stevens for doing an incredible job of defending him and game planning for him. That was text book awesome performance. I marvel more of how well they defended him more then trying to take away from Lebrons greatness. To me that diminishes the Celtics Game 1 performance. The whole Cavs team played awful outside perhaps Tristen Thompson....that was a masterful Celtics performance there. Let's recognize that.

I totally agree that he is best player in the league and If I had to choose 1 player right now to be on my team it is LeBron. As you say I have already acknowledged he is a Top 5-10 player ever, and I have already named him my Player of the Decade. Not sure what much else I can say about the guy that is top praise. I just don't worship the guy! I have a problem with the people that never criticize a thing he does, it's never his fault when the Cavs lose, it's always his teammates when it comes to some people. There is always an excuse. Right here in your Post, you just give the Celtics credit and don't even bring up LeBron was a -32, shot 5-16 for 15 Points. Maybe my hate for LeBron wouldn't even exist if people in the media and people in general would quit calling him the GOAT or 2nd best ever. After a while when it gets shoved in your face 24/7 it gets old. I don't think he is but of course that is my opinion. I am the only one on the Site that calls LeBron out when he plays bad or loses a series so I look like the ultimate hater LOL. It is what it is. I compliment LeBron as much as I bash him actually. Read my 1st few sentences even in this Post.

[BrentMc11]

40 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I totally agree that he is best player in the league and If I had to choose 1 player right now to be on my team it is LeBron. As you say I have already acknowledged he is a Top 5-10 player ever, and I have already named him my Player of the Decade. Not sure what much else I can say about the guy that is top praise. I just don't worship the guy! I have a problem with the people that never criticize a thing he does, it's never his fault when the Cavs lose, it's always his teammates when it comes to some people. There is always an excuse. Right here in your Post, you just give the Celtics credit and don't even bring up LeBron was a -32, shot 5-16 for 15 Points. Maybe my hate for LeBron wouldn't even exist if people in the media and people in general would quit calling him the GOAT or 2nd best ever. After a while when it gets shoved in your face 24/7 it gets old. I don't think he is but of course that is my opinion. I am the only one on the Site that calls LeBron out when he plays bad or loses a series so I look like the ultimate hater LOL. It is what it is. I compliment LeBron as much as I bash him actually. Read my 1st few sentences even in this Post.

You must have forgotten about me   Jay Kirk and I have called him out since his Miami days.  

 

I lost further respect for him when he said that Brad Stevens' coaching is overrated.  Maybe that is why Big Al Horford is kicking some Cavalier BUTT this entire series......IMO!!

[BrentMc11]

47 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Look...I'm not a Lebron follower....and we don't have to keep comparing him to MJ. Since he has lost in the finals there is no way he can go 6-0...so he can never live up to MJ....we get it. But I remember all of MJ's career. My best friend in school was obsessed with him. I also remember MJ losing games in the playoffs and also having bad games in the playoffs. Not many but he did. I remember Nick Anderson stripping the ball from him with the game on the line one of 8 turnovers in a poor shooting game. It happens my friend. I think it is pretty plain to see that no player in the NBA carries more weight of his team...is responsible for more of the team's offense through assists and points...and does more to put his team in right place to win then Lebron. He already has two game winning shots, multiple triple doubles, along with several 40 pt performances in these playoffs...go ahead and cherry pick his bad performances. I know you consider him the top 5-10 ever to play yet you dog him at every step of the way. I want him to lose as badly as anyone but if you can't be objective and see the elite greatness that he plays with and be amazed at his play on the court then that's fine. Just giving him lip service and saying...he is great....but but but that to me is false praise and just a way to cover your butt so you can take a dig at the guy every chance you get. Just because you call him great doesn't mean your not transparent my friend. Your hate for Lebron far exceeds your ability to treat him fairly. I don't think there is a single player in this league that you replace Lebron with would get the Cavs to the playoffs. He does so much. Instead of dogging the guy on a bad game...why not praise the Celtics and Morris and Stevens for doing an incredible job of defending him and game planning for him. That was text book awesome performance. I marvel more of how well they defended him more then trying to take away from Lebrons greatness. To me that diminishes the Celtics Game 1 performance. The whole Cavs team played awful outside perhaps Tristen Thompson....that was a masterful Celtics performance there. Let's recognize that.

Instead of dogging the guy on a bad game...why not praise the Celtics and Morris and Stevens for doing an incredible job of defending him and game planning for him. That was text book awesome performance. I marvel more of how well they defended him more then trying to take away from Lebrons greatness. To me that diminishes the Celtics Game 1 performance. The whole Cavs team played awful outside perhaps Tristen Thompson....that was a masterful Celtics performance there. Let's recognize that.

 

I totally agree with this more than anything.  The Celtics were ready to play.  The Cavs....not so much.  The Celts made JR Smith look stupid several times, and Kevin Love got skilled all evening long.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, BrentMc11 said:

You must have forgotten about me   Jay Kirk and I have called him out since his Miami days.  

 

I lost further respect for him when he said that Brad Stevens' coaching is overrated.  Mayb that is why Big Al Horford is kicking some Cavalier BUTT this entire series......IMO!!

Yeah you and Jay both think like I do. I should've mentioned you 2 but you guys haven't Posted on the Basketball Thread much lately. Thank you my friend. I have LeBron in my Top 10 ever but no way is he the GOAT or 2nd, JMO and you and Jay at least agree with me. My hate started toward him when he left Cleveland the 1st time to join Wade and Bosh. That made the league unfair and showed that LeBron wasn't mentally tough like a Jordan, Magic, or Bird. Jordan lost for 6 years but stuck with it and finally got it done in Chicago. He could've left but chose to stick with the process. It is amazing to me how LeBron supporters even defend him leaving Cleveland in 2010. That was a soft move. How you been doing my friend?

[BrentMc11]

13 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah you and Jay both think like I do. I should've mentioned you 2 but you guys haven't Posted on the Basketball Thread much lately. Thank you my friend. I have LeBron in my Top 10 ever but no way is he the GOAT or 2nd, JMO and you and Jay at least agree with me. My hate started toward him when he left Cleveland the 1st time to join Wade and Bosh. That made the league unfair and showed that LeBron wasn't mentally tough like a Jordan, Magic, or Bird. Jordan lost for 6 years but stuck with it and finally got it done in Chicago. He could've left but chose to stick with the process. It is amazing to me how LeBron supporters even defend him leaving Cleveland in 2010. That was a soft move. How you been doing my friend?

I've been better.    I have worked out 4 days in a row in the pool even though I need  back surgery by  the beginning of fall.  My new doctor is cutting meds instead of increasing them.  Pain 7 out of 10 when not 10 out of 10.  Pain sucks.    I can handle it.  Thanks for asking.

 

I did say on my friend Kent Sterling's Sports show that I had never seen so many last second game winners in my entire life as in the Pacers and Toronto series.  That does put him in my Top 5 or higher.

 

You mention winning 'mentally.'  I have seen Magic, Bird, and Jordan do it sooooo many times.  I think there are several players who are better in the hypothetical Top 10 mentally better or stronger than Lebron. One of them wore the number 31 for Indiana. (Pacers) Again...my opinion.  

 

BTW, I watched almost every Pacers game this past year.  I finally got to one game.....had to leave early....zero stamina at the time. Love those Pacers.

[2006Coltsbestever]

42 minutes ago, BrentMc11 said:

I've been better.    I have worked out 4 days in a row in the pool even though I need  back surgery by  the beginning of fall.  My new doctor is cutting meds instead of increasing them.  Pain 7 out of 10 when not 10 out of 10.  Pain sucks.    I can handle it.  Thanks for asking.

 

I did say on my friend Kent Sterling's Sports post that I had never seen so many last second game winners in my entire life as in the Pacers and Toronto series.  That does put him in my Top 5 or higher.

 

You mention winning 'mentally.'  I have seen Magic, Bird, and Jordan do it sooooo many times.  I think there are several players who I think are better in the hypothetical Top 10 mentally better or stronger than Lebron.  Again...my opinion.  

 

BTW, I watched almost every Pacers game this past year.  I finally got to one game.....had to leave early....zero stamina at the time. Love those Pacers.

I think LeBron can end up 2nd because his career isn't done yet (another compliment by me) but as of now I don't think he is. He has to win at least 1 more Championship being the best player on his team and pass Kareem on the Scoring list, JMO. Those 2 things would be huge for his debate IMO. There have been just so many great players before LeBron that just putting him 2nd because he's playing now is a bit of a stretch. I can see no why he passes Jordan because Jordan averaged way more Points per game, made 9 1st All-Defensive Teams where LeBron has never made 1, and Jordan is 6-0 Finals. So we need put that debate in the trash can. He can pass Magic and Kareem if he does what I stated above and I love Magic but he could pass both those guys. IMO, LeBron is on PAR with Larry Bird, Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe Bryant right now looking at what each has accomplished and how they have affected the game in recent era's.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I totally agree that he is best player in the league and If I had to choose 1 player right now to be on my team it is LeBron. As you say I have already acknowledged he is a Top 5-10 player ever, and I have already named him my Player of the Decade. Not sure what much else I can say about the guy that is top praise. I just don't worship the guy! I have a problem with the people that never criticize a thing he does, it's never his fault when the Cavs lose, it's always his teammates when it comes to some people. There is always an excuse. Right here in your Post, you just give the Celtics credit and don't even bring up LeBron was a -32, shot 5-16 for 15 Points. Maybe my hate for LeBron wouldn't even exist if people in the media and people in general would quit calling him the GOAT or 2nd best ever. After a while when it gets shoved in your face 24/7 it gets old. I don't think he is but of course that is my opinion. I am the only one on the Site that calls LeBron out when he plays bad or loses a series so I look like the ultimate hater LOL. It is what it is. I compliment LeBron as much as I bash him actually. Read my 1st few sentences even in this Post.

Let me preface by saying I'm not trying to hate on you @2006Coltsbestever...I am hoping the Celtics continue kicking the Cavs butt but I think if you don't sit back and appreciate his greatness on the hardwood then your not fully appreciating what this guy is doing. It's like those that hate NE so much they don't want to give Tom Brady credit for all he has accomplished and how incredible he is on the field. It's going to end some day...probably pretty soon for both of them....and then people won't have the opportunity to appreciate it when its gone. We likely aren't going to see a guy score 29 of teams last 30 pts..the last 25 points of the game like we witnessed in 2007 when he killed the Pistons in game 5. Moments when he finished off the big 3 in Boston. Lebron's abilities are off the charts. There has never been a player like him in the history of the game. The defense, the offense, the passing, the athleticism...stuffing stats. He is an incredible player...to nit pick him and point out his very few flaws or bad games and gloss over the countless incredible ones just speaks to hating on the guy. I get it. His personal attitude and the stuff he said in the "Decision"...the corination early on in his career as the King before he ever accomplished anything...it leaves a bad taste....but the play on the floor...is unquestionable. I marvel at the things he can accomplish...passes like Magic, drives like MJ, dunks like Nique, see's the floor like Stockton...even adding a 3pt shot that none of those guys had before. Pretty incredible stuff....and sure he throws up a turd every once in a while. It isn't so much that you point out the fact he had a bad game...is just that you use a bad game to prove your point....like the greats Magic and MJ never had any. They had some stinkers too....MJ had some horrendous shooting nights but typically still scored 20 just because he got to the FT line so much....but there were nights him and Magic and Kareem got outplayed...had off nights...and I don't think we bash those guys...we usually marvel at the team or players that held them in check. But Lebron...its....see I told you so...he can't be one of the GOATS because he had a bad game. He can't be one of the greats...he has lost too many Finals. I watch him on the floor and I realize that there has never been one player capable of doing the things he can do in one body before. When he can do what the greats did...rebound elite, play elite defense, pass and assist like the elite, and when he wants to score he can at will....that's special. Who cares what some people say...it doesn't matter. Some are going to say Bird was better than Magic, that Kobe is better than MJ...and so on...its just their opinion. And I'm fine with your opinion of Lebron...it's just you only say how he doesn't measure up...you give lip service compliment and then spend the rest of the paragraph saying what he ISN'T.

 

I know your trying to honor those that came before and make sure people realize when they say GOAT that they understand what others have accomplished and that term shouldn't be taken so lightly....but let's be fair...Lebron has earned that status to have some think he is the greatest. It isn't debatable he belongs on that stage and in that conversation. And you can still think he is 5th, 6th, 10th or whatever...you just don't have to try to diminish what he has done to raise up MJ or Magic....their accomplishments speak for themselves. Lebron's speak for themselves too....we don't have to handicap anything. I think it is plenty clear the whole team played poorly last night...even a great Lebron game wouldn't have won it for them. They needed everyone to do their part and NO ONE did. Love was trash, Korver, Smith, Hill, Lebron...nobody played to their abilities...and I give Boston credit for taking them out of their game. But it means nothing in the grand scheme of judging Lebron. He has a huge body of work to show his greatness. One game or a bad series won't change how we think of him.

[2006Coltsbestever]

34 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Let me preface by saying I'm not trying to hate on you @2006Coltsbestever...I am hoping the Celtics continue kicking the Cavs butt but I think if you don't sit back and appreciate his greatness on the hardwood then your not fully appreciating what this guy is doing. It's like those that hate NE so much they don't want to give Tom Brady credit for all he has accomplished and how incredible he is on the field. It's going to end some day...probably pretty soon for both of them....and then people won't have the opportunity to appreciate it when its gone. We likely aren't going to see a guy score 29 of teams last 30 pts..the last 25 points of the game like we witnessed in 2007 when he killed the Pistons in game 5. Moments when he finished off the big 3 in Boston. Lebron's abilities are off the charts. There has never been a player like him in the history of the game. The defense, the offense, the passing, the athleticism...stuffing stats. He is an incredible player...to nit pick him and point out his very few flaws or bad games and gloss over the countless incredible ones just speaks to hating on the guy. I get it. His personal attitude and the stuff he said in the "Decision"...the corination early on in his career as the King before he ever accomplished anything...it leaves a bad taste....but the play on the floor...is unquestionable. I marvel at the things he can accomplish...passes like Magic, drives like MJ, dunks like Nique, see's the floor like Stockton...even adding a 3pt shot that none of those guys had before. Pretty incredible stuff....and sure he throws up a turd every once in a while. It isn't so much that you point out the fact he had a bad game...is just that you use a bad game to prove your point....like the greats Magic and MJ never had any. They had some stinkers too....MJ had some horrendous shooting nights but typically still scored 20 just because he got to the FT line so much....but there were nights him and Magic and Kareem got outplayed...had off nights...and I don't think we bash those guys...we usually marvel at the team or players that held them in check. But Lebron...its....see I told you so...he can't be one of the GOATS because he had a bad game. He can't be one of the greats...he has lost too many Finals. I watch him on the floor and I realize that there has never been one player capable of doing the things he can do in one body before. When he can do what the greats did...rebound elite, play elite defense, pass and assist like the elite, and when he wants to score he can at will....that's special. Who cares what some people say...it doesn't matter. Some are going to say Bird was better than Magic, that Kobe is better than MJ...and so on...its just their opinion. And I'm fine with your opinion of Lebron...it's just you only say how he doesn't measure up...you give lip service compliment and then spend the rest of the paragraph saying what he ISN'T.

 

I know your trying to honor those that came before and make sure people realize when they say GOAT that they understand what others have accomplished and that term shouldn't be taken so lightly....but let's be fair...Lebron has earned that status to have some think he is the greatest. It isn't debatable he belongs on that stage and in that conversation. And you can still think he is 5th, 6th, 10th or whatever...you just don't have to try to diminish what he has done to raise up MJ or Magic....their accomplishments speak for themselves. Lebron's speak for themselves too....we don't have to handicap anything. I think it is plenty clear the whole team played poorly last night...even a great Lebron game wouldn't have won it for them. They needed everyone to do their part and NO ONE did. Love was trash, Korver, Smith, Hill, Lebron...nobody played to their abilities...and I give Boston credit for taking them out of their game. But it means nothing in the grand scheme of judging Lebron. He has a huge body of work to show his greatness. One game or a bad series won't change how we think of him.

Great Post actually. I have never not once said LeBron doesn't belong in the GOAT convo. He belongs in my Top Tier of all-time players with Wilt, Russell, Robertson, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan going by decade's. LeBron is the best of this decade. Yeah it's all opinion and I respect everyone's opinion on who they think the GOAT is, like you said I just try to point how Great the older players were because I think some people don't realize how Great they were. I don't even have anything personal towards/against LeBron, I just go by what I have seen and what players have accomplished. It's all good my friend, I am not upset at anyone in here as it is just fun debate with me. It will probably be a long time before anyone comes along that is better than LeBron after he retires. He is that Great.

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah you and Jay both think like I do. I should've mentioned you 2 but you guys haven't Posted on the Basketball Thread much lately. Thank you my friend. I have LeBron in my Top 10 ever but no way is he the GOAT or 2nd, JMO and you and Jay at least agree with me. My hate started toward him when he left Cleveland the 1st time to join Wade and Bosh. That made the league unfair and showed that LeBron wasn't mentally tough like a Jordan, Magic, or Bird. Jordan lost for 6 years but stuck with it and finally got it done in Chicago. He could've left but chose to stick with the process. It is amazing to me how LeBron supporters even defend him leaving Cleveland in 2010. That was a soft move. How you been doing my friend?

I can agree with that....the "Decision" was way over the top and pretty big decision on why I don't really care for Lebron. It didn't change the NBA though. Super teams or loaded teams with multiple great players have always dominated the league. He did it to get past the Celtics trio of Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Paul Pierce....and a great young Rondo. Lebron's early years he had very poor talent with the Cavs. Look at the Celtics, 6ers and Lakers of the 80s, the Bulls with Scottie and MJ. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, Akeem and Clyde, Karl and John, Detroit with Rip, Wallaces, and Chauncy. Spurs with David Robinson and Tim Duncan and later Duncan, Manu, and Parker...then Kawai. It takes multiple stars to win a championship...or at least a loaded team. I think Lebron realized management was never going to be able to give him that team in Cleveland...so he wanted to tag team with a player he could trust and rely on with Wade and Bosh. I'd say MJ had less talent on his roster but there were not many championship teams in the past 30 years that weren't as talented. One man going alone can only carry you so far....ask Charles Barkley about that. I mean it isn't like you bash Shaq for not getting it done in Orlando and going to the Lakers? It takes a special team to win it all...I don't blame Lebron for moving...it was definitely how he did it that rubbed me wrong. 

[dgambill]

22 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Great Post actually. I have never not once said LeBron doesn't belong in the GOAT convo. He belongs in my Top Tier of all-time players with Wilt, Russell, Robertson, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan going by decade's. LeBron is the best of this decade. Yeah it's all opinion and I respect everyone's opinion on who they think the GOAT is, like you said I just try to point how Great the older players were because I think some people don't realize how Great they were. I don't even have anything personal towards/against LeBron, I just go by what I have seen and what players have accomplished. It's all good my friend, I am not upset at anyone in here as it is just fun debate with me. It will probably be a long time before anyone comes along that is better than LeBron after he retires. He is that Great.

No problem...I don't want it to come off personal either..it just seems we cut down our stars and that we also have selective memory of our past greats. It's easy to remember the shot over Ehlo and Russell...the flu game....the 3 pointers against the Trailblazers and the shrug. But we gloss over the bad shooting nights and the struggles because in the end MJ would win the series. I don't think that many had the desire and will to win the Michael had....but I do think that what Lebron can do...has done...and is doing is just as special and just as great at what we've seen before.

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, BrentMc11 said:

Instead of dogging the guy on a bad game...why not praise the Celtics and Morris and Stevens for doing an incredible job of defending him and game planning for him. That was text book awesome performance. I marvel more of how well they defended him more then trying to take away from Lebrons greatness. To me that diminishes the Celtics Game 1 performance. The whole Cavs team played awful outside perhaps Tristen Thompson....that was a masterful Celtics performance there. Let's recognize that.

 

I totally agree with this more than anything.  The Celtics were ready to play.  The Cavs....not so much.  The Celts made JR Smith look stupid several times, and Kevin Love got skilled all evening long.  

Al Horford is WAY WAY underrated. Guy is a leader and a winner in my book! Hope he gets a ring at some point.

[2006Coltsbestever]

24 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I can agree with that....the "Decision" was way over the top and pretty big decision on why I don't really care for Lebron. It didn't change the NBA though. Super teams or loaded teams with multiple great players have always dominated the league. He did it to get past the Celtics trio of Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Paul Pierce....and a great young Rondo. Lebron's early years he had very poor talent with the Cavs. Look at the Celtics, 6ers and Lakers of the 80s, the Bulls with Scottie and MJ. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, Akeem and Clyde, Karl and John, Detroit with Rip, Wallaces, and Chauncy. Spurs with David Robinson and Tim Duncan and later Duncan, Manu, and Parker...then Kawai. It takes multiple stars to win a championship...or at least a loaded team. I think Lebron realized management was never going to be able to give him that team in Cleveland...so he wanted to tag team with a player he could trust and rely on with Wade and Bosh. I'd say MJ had less talent on his roster but there were not many championship teams in the past 30 years that weren't as talented. One man going alone can only carry you so far....ask Charles Barkley about that. I mean it isn't like you bash Shaq for not getting it done in Orlando and going to the Lakers? It takes a special team to win it all...I don't blame Lebron for moving...it was definitely how he did it that rubbed me wrong. 

I often wonder how a team like Utah would've done had they had someone like Leonard at SF instead of Russell to go with Stockton and Malone. Man they may have won 3 or 4 Championships in a row. Hornacek was a 3rd good wheel but imagine had they had a legit 3rd SuperStar. Malone might be in the convo for GOAT. Those Utah teams in the mid to late 90's were awesome with Great Chemistry.

[2006Coltsbestever]

19 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I often wonder how a team like Utah would've done had they had someone like Leonard at SF instead of Russell to go with Stockton and Malone. Man they may have won 3 or 4 Championships in a row. Hornacek was a 3rd good wheel but imagine had they had a legit 3rd SuperStar. Malone might be in the convo for GOAT. Those Utah teams in the mid to late 90's were awesome with Great Chemistry.

To follow that up they never won one! Couldn't beat Jordan and the Bulls unfortunately. Malone is the best player to never win a Ring IMO, much like Marino in Football.

[dgambill]

27 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I often wonder how a team like Utah would've done had they had someone like Leonard at SF instead of Russell to go with Stockton and Malone. Man they may have won 3 or 4 Championships in a row. Hornacek was a 3rd good wheel but imagine had they had a legit 3rd SuperStar. Malone might be in the convo for GOAT. Those Utah teams in the mid to late 90's were awesome with Great Chemistry.

Yep...there were very few teams that had the athleticism to guard Pippen and Jordan. Looking at almost all of the finals there just wasn't a team that matched up well against them. Only one team had that ability...the 96 Seattle Supersonics. The problem....Gary Payton came into the finals with an injured calf and was not fully healthy. Sonics go down 3-0. Then finally Payton gets his wish...the Bulls still won in 6 but "The Glove" was successful in limiting Jordan.

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.

Makes you wonder how that series would turn out if Payton could have played Jordan the whole series. I think the Bulls likely still win...but it was definitely a different series when that happened. Some untimely poor 3pt shooting especially from Perkins killed Seattle's chances...along with the fact that Dennis Rodman dominated. Guy had 41 offensive rebounds in that series and Chicago killed Seattle on the boards....but if McMillon who hurt his back as well and Payton were healthy...Kemp was special in that series...that was a team that was athletic enough to play with the Bulls. Not as talented as the Jazz but athletic as all get at.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Yep...there were very few teams that had the athleticism to guard Pippen and Jordan. Looking at almost all of the finals there just wasn't a team that matched up well against them. Only one team had that ability...the 96 Seattle Supersonics. The problem....Gary Payton came into the finals with an injured calf and was not fully healthy. Sonics go down 3-0. Then finally Payton gets his wish...the Bulls still won in 6 but "The Glove" was successful in limiting Jordan.

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.

Makes you wonder how that series would turn out if Payton could have played Jordan the whole series. I think the Bulls likely still win...but it was definitely a different series when that happened. Some untimely poor 3pt shooting especially from Perkins killed Seattle's chances...along with the fact that Dennis Rodman dominated. Guy had 41 offensive rebounds in that series and Chicago killed Seattle on the boards....but if McMillon who hurt his back as well and Payton were healthy...Kemp was special in that series...that was a team that was athletic enough to play with the Bulls. Not as talented as the Jazz but athletic as all get at.

Seattle was very athletic and had depth, they just didn't play smart late in games a lot of times like the Jazz did or even the Reggie Miller Pacers did. Payton was a Great Defensive player but not clutch on Offense, Kemp was an unreal talent but wasn't Clutch either. I couldn't stand the Bulls back then and kept hoping they would lose with Jordan after they won in 1991. They never did with the exception of Jordan's shorten season against the Magic with Shaq in 1995.

[dgambill]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Seattle was very athletic and had depth, they just didn't play smart late in games a lot of times like the Jazz did or even the Reggie Miller Pacers did. Payton was a Great Defensive player but not clutch on Offense, Kemp was an unreal talent but wasn't Clutch either. I couldn't stand the Bulls back then and kept hoping they would lose with Jordan after they won in 1991. They never did with the exception of Jordan's shorten season against the Magic with Shaq in 1995.

Yep...I was just saying if the Jazz had a guy like Gary Payton to play defense...he was the only guy that really gave MJ fits in the finals. He pretty much got his way against anyone else. Lakers, Trailblazers, Suns, Jazz...none really had a dog that could challenge MJ. Gary took that on and even though he was 2 inches shorter and probably gave up 20lbs he made MJ work....you need a dog....just like Morris is with the Celtics..giving Lebron fits because he doesn't back down. Someone that is willing to take on that challenge and not be intimidated. Gary was the only one I saw that if he was playing alongside the Jazz....that guy could have been enough to make the difference for the Jazz. Yeah MJ killed our Pacers several times..I was rooting for anyone at the end to beat him. Just too good.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Yep...I was just saying if the Jazz had a guy like Gary Payton to play defense...he was the only guy that really gave MJ fits in the finals. He pretty much got his way against anyone else. Lakers, Trailblazers, Suns, Jazz...none really had a dog that could challenge MJ. Gary took that on and even though he was 2 inches shorter and probably gave up 20lbs he made MJ work....you need a dog....just like Morris is with the Celtics..giving Lebron fits because he doesn't back down. Someone that is willing to take on that challenge and not be intimidated. Gary was the only one I saw that if he was playing alongside the Jazz....that guy could have been enough to make the difference for the Jazz. Yeah MJ killed our Pacers several times..I was rooting for anyone at the end to beat him. Just too good.

I agree, Payton has an argument to being the best Defensive Player of all-time, at least Top 5 anyway. I liked when we put McKey on Jordan as well when they played us. McKey was a Great Defensive player and was 6'10 with Good foot work.

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree, Payton has an argument to being the best Defensive Player of all-time, at least Top 5 anyway. I liked when we put McKey on Jordan as well when they played us. McKey was a Great Defensive player and was 6'10 with Good foot work.

Yes...it took away his post game...and made him take shots over longer outstretched hands. I'm not sure anyone could slow down MJ too much.....Scottie might have been the only guy that could possibly give MJ fits and he was on the same team lol. Once Jordan got bigger and stronger...and teams couldn't knock him around (Detroit) then he became basically unguardable. Gary was just a junk yard dog...strong and wirey for a pg. Super quick feet...he made Jordan take tough shots and you saw the shooting percentage go down. It was more about knowing what places on the floor MJ wanted to get too. The base line fade away...elbow jumper etc...you could tell in those games Gary would let him have looks but worked like heck to keep him from getting the ball in his spots.

[BullsColtsFan1]

Wow!  The Celtics throttled the Cavs.  LeBron had and plus minus of -32 in the game!  The Celtics are a dang good team.  They need their two stars though.  Great coach, great system, tons of shooters, play defense and don't turn the ball over all that much.  They do have a shot in this series if they defend well and continue to shoot well.  I still think the Cavs win the next 4 or 4 of the next 5.  I would love to be wrong though!  Huge game tonight for the Rockets imo.  Must win, if they lose this one that series will be over early.  They worked hard all year to get that #1 seed and to lose the first game against the Warriors would kill them imo.  Hopefully a nice long series though.