Without Peyton, We Will Need A Lot Of "luck" -Not Just The Player

[04DarkShadowGT]

I said 4 years for a superbowl. thats a long enough time. In fact, we'll be talking about new coaches if it doesnt happen by 4 years. If it goes past 4 years, then we will be the rams/lions. I'm not sure how you could argue against that.

Its actually quite simple to argue. It took Peyton 6 years to win a playoff game, took him 9 to win a championship.

If you dont win a SB, that doenst mean you are a terrible team like the Lions have been historically. That is insanity.

Since Phillip Rivers got drafted by SD, in those 7 years they won 4 division titles, and won 9, 9, and 8 games in the other three. They didnt win a Super Bowl but they were a far cry from the Lions or Rams.

I mean it was an absolutley absurd argument to make and quite easy to refute.

[Fireman818]

Do you really think Luck wants to come here and be the guy that replaces an icon. He's in a no win situation. If they go that route he will have no one around him to help him win. He will struggle and the fans will always hate him. At least when Manning came he had Faulk, Harrison and others. Who the heck is Luck going to have? Now, by trading the pick you can get numerous players and get young.

Another thing is, if you draft Luck, whose going to back him up? We've already been through that season.

[MSColtsFan]

Do you really think Luck wants to come here and be the guy that replaces an icon. He's in a no win situation. If they go that route he will have no one around him to help him win. He will struggle and the fans will always hate him. At least when Manning came he had Faulk, Harrison and others. Who the heck is Luck going to have? Now, by trading the pick you can get numerous players and get young.

Another thing is, if you draft Luck, whose going to back him up? We've already been through that season.

If the maturity and work ethic are as reported, Luck is exactly the kind of player to replace PM. Someone will one day, and as fans we better all hope the person selected is self assured and confident and mature enough to handle it. Luck has been asked about PM for months now, about being the first pick for two years... he won't be overwwhelmed by Kravitz or Mort or others.

Luck had little to work with at Stanford too, yet broke Elway passing records, had one of the best acedemic schools in the country in the top ten back-to-back years (Stanford doesn't bend acedemic requirements like USC, Oregon, etc.)... The Colts have pieces, and will add to them. At 2-14 there are lots of things that must improve, players to draft, FA's to sign. It isn't going to happen overnight.

[04DarkShadowGT]

I dont think even the most adamant Luck supporter expects him to take us to greatness early on. I expect a season like Peyton had his first year, but with that comes another high pick to draft a much needed playmaker. That or trade that pick to get more picks.

But when you have a shot at drafting what is supposed to be a once in a generation player, you take it.

Guys who are busts like Akili Smith, Jamarcus Russel, and most of the other elite guys liek Ty Detmer were NEVER thought of as cant miss best of a generation best we have seen in 20 years type of guy,

[betheafan41]

Do you love luck?

Do you think it's time to let peyton go only based upon the fact that his tricep is not ready now in Feb?

moving on, I said that "People who want Luck will be simpathetic to giving him all the time he needs. but you can't wait 3 months for Peyton's tricep." Take Luck out of the picture then, if there was no luck, you wouldn't be so quick to give Peyton the boot.

what are your feelings on this?

my feelings would still be the same draft a new QB. theres no guarentee mannings arm will get its strength back

[betheafan41]

your glad i'm not the owner? your post could only happen in one football world. Madden 2012

mario williams..lol Can we make bets on here without getting kicked off? I'll be you my 2006 team signed and authenticated superbowl helmet they wont' sign mario willams.

i never said they will sign him mario williams, i was putting options out there over your rediculous statement of keeping manning and building around an old QB who is hanging on by a thread. i never once said they WILL sign mario williams

[Portage Coltfans]

Its actually quite simple to argue. It took Peyton 6 years to win a playoff game, took him 9 to win a championship.

If you dont win a SB, that doenst mean you are a terrible team like the Lions have been historically. That is insanity.

Since Phillip Rivers got drafted by SD, in those 7 years they won 4 division titles, and won 9, 9, and 8 games in the other three. They didnt win a Super Bowl but they were a far cry from the Lions or Rams.

I mean it was an absolutley absurd argument to make and quite easy to refute.

first, are you saying it is good that they won 9, 9, and 8 games? wow low standards. I'd like to see you at a bar sometime. could be comical. SD is in the AFC west. they got to host a playoff game against the colts when they were 8-8. Crediting them for winning a divisional title is like saying kentucky is the best basketball college in their state. In fact, If I was a San Deigo fan, I wouldn't be content with that list you just made at all.

2nd the steelers, packers, patriots all won in 4 years with a new QB. - can't argue that

So do you want to be like san diego/rams/lions? or be like the pats/steelers/packers?

I personally would have really high expectations on the Colts to produce a superbowl team quickly, if the other good teams can, then we should too.

[Jaric]

So by this logic we should have ditched Peyton after year 4 right?

[ACollie17]

I'm not seeing a scenerio where we don't turn out to be the next Detriot Lions, I'm not talking this year's lions but the team that drafted 3 WR's with top picks in a row. Or we could be the Rams. *sidenote: without megatron, that lions team is way overrated*

Without Peyton and this new change to a 3-4. Then no way will Wayne come back. Freeney is a non-factor in the rush from a 3-4 DE position. Our linebackers and secondary are well....you know they need more than just help.

We can only improve from the draft, no FA is going to want to play here with Luck. Lets see, go play with the Bears and Cutler. The Vikings/Cardinals and Manning? or come to rebuilding Indy and a rookie QB. So any scenerio of signing top FA is just not going to happen. Plus, signing top FA isn't the way to go anyways, unless your Superbowl ready. The only way we sign "top" FA this year is if Manning is coming back.

I do think we could be good again in 4-5 years. But that is still just a maybe. And when I say good, I mean like the past 10 years good. When we are not just happy with making it too the playoffs, but want championship games.

I'll keep Peyton, even with a weak triceps, and try to win superbowls now. Even if we do trade away luck for Picks, and manning doesn't work out well. then we are still left with a way more quality team overall. Andrew Luck will not be the last good QB to come out in the next 4 years.

I agree with your thinking that there will be more guys down the road rather than Luck. But I don't agree with your first two thoughts. Wayne has gone on record saying he would not be opposed to returning to a rebuilding Colts team (I can post a link if you want).

Pagano said he has a plan for both Freeney and Mathis in a 3-4 in his first presser and feels they can produce in any defensive scheme (same as above, I can give a link). Freeney can be moved to a stand-up rusher like Mario Williams.

And here are my thoughts on free agency. Sure, if it's decided to rebuild, that may skew people's vision towards the team. But, a) money, money, money. Alot of guys are greatly influenced by money and can be swayed at the right price (with the cap issues, no one knows though). and b) I don't see why a young free agent wouldn't want to come. Now these are just examples of guys who are scheduled to be upcoming free agents (and are possibilities to not remain with their current team) and I do not expect any of these guys to come here (but hey, it would be nice), but 27 year old Dwayne Bowe? 27 year old Ben Grubbs? 26 year old Carl Nicks? 25 year old Cliff Avril? As I said, just some examples. But by your thinking that the Colts could be good again in 4-5 years, these guys would be in their early 30s. It's not unattractive to be coming to Indy as a younger free agent if they share the same belief that you do, and if Irsay and Grigson relay that line of thinking that success will be back in 4-5 years.

[The Fish]

Do you really think Luck wants to come here and be the guy that replaces an icon. He's in a no win situation. If they go that route he will have no one around him to help him win. He will struggle and the fans will always hate him. At least when Manning came he had Faulk, Harrison and others. Who the heck is Luck going to have? Now, by trading the pick you can get numerous players and get young.

Another thing is, if you draft Luck, whose going to back him up? We've already been through that season.

I really think Luck wants to come here and follow up an icon. He said he wants to be the 1# pick. The fans will never hate him, they'll be luke warm on Irsay either way this pans out. If Luck is in fact a winner how long do you think this "perceived hate" will last, considering he's a total by standard in this scenario?

He will have potentially, even more likely if Peyton is forced to retire or is cut, the same supporting cast as the last few years.

I don't really think the team needs numerous picks, contrary to popular opinion around here, we needed last season and going forward quality QB play.

[UndecidedFrog]

I really think Luck wants to come here and follow up an icon. He said he wants to be the 1# pick. The fans will never hate him, they'll be luke warm on Irsay either way this pans out. If Luck is in fact a winner how long do you think this "perceived hate" will last, considering he's a total by standard in this scenario?

He will have potentially, even more likely if Peyton is forced to retire or is cut, the same supporting cast as the last few years.

I don't really think the team needs numerous picks, contrary to popular opinion around here, we needed last season and going forward quality QB play.

Some fans may want to burn these shirts after Luck becomes the hero they never thought he would be.

[Blue Horseshoe]

My god you are completely right! Luck will be a total bust!! Why didn't the Colts take someone from the SEC?? Loads of great quarterbacks going against great defenses. Just like Jamarcus Russell!! Oh wait....

But you're right still, Pac 10 quarterbacks are god awful. Thank god John Elway went to the Broncos instead of the Colts. . .

I think the odds of his being a complete bust are much higher than his being this supernatural quarterback we keep hearing about. This "greatest since SId Luckman" stuff is beyond ridiculous and is very unfair to the rookie. It is setting up all kinds of completely unreasonable expectations.

As for first round Pac 10 quarterbacks of the last 15 years. Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, Cade McNown, ...

I can go on for quite a while if you would like. Pac 10 quarterbacks are among the biggest busts in recent history because, other than USC during the championship years, there is a complete lack of defense in that conference.

[Fireman818]

No one is ever considered to be a lock in the NFL. Luck is good but I doubt that he will have very many weapons, by NFL standards, to help him. How many guys with a lot of upside are thrown to the wolves and get destroyed and bust. Keeping Manning, possible getting him to lower his cap hit by restructuring, trading the #1 pick overall helps us the most in the rebuilding process. Middle of last season they were reporting that you could get 2-1st rounders, 2-2nd rounders. Now if you draft well, your telling me that 4 early picks can't help this team rebuild and you still have Manning as your QB. you then draft a QB to develop behind Manning and you hit the reset button and look forward to 3 or 4 years down the road. That senario helps this team rebuild the best possible way and get younger fast. By cutting Manning and then signing Luck you don't address the need to get better players, you don't address the back up QB position, you loose 14 mil in cap space, you can't resign other players within, etc.

Now lets talk money, does the organization make money if Manning is kept or released? I say they make a whole lot more with Manning, STH's are kept happy, Manning brings possitive press to your team and keeps you in the eye of the press and all that does for your team and city, and Manning givies you the best opportunity to keep winning going forward. Were talking Peyton Manning here people, not Carson Palmer. Peyton Manning! The player that did all he has done for your team and your city and you just want to say good bye to him??????? You should be ashamed for even thinking such a thing as a fan and don't give me all this blah, blah, blah about it helps us rebuild going forward. I would take Manning at 50% for 3 to 4 years over an unproven player like Luck everyday and twice on Sunday's. No one works harder, studies film and prepares better than Peyton Manning and if he says he is ready then I believe him.

[BleedingBlue]

Some of the folks on these boards siding with ownership and "its business" baffle me. Owners often hold a city's team hostage for a new stadium, usally to the tune of $400 million of your tax dollars...So its ok for you to pay for the stadiumthat Peyton built, (which Irsay - who paid little out of pocket - will profit directly from College games played here), but the Colts shouldn't pay the guy who made it possible $28 million. Thats like being a poor republican. (sry if thats a TOS violation but the analogy was just too good to pass up).

Passion for Manning is understandable. What I can't understand is passion against him. Its not your money. A deal can be worked out. Anything can happen when both parties want it to happen. What irks me is that I'm not sure both parties want this to happen, which has been my point all along.

But most importantly, its all about the horseshoe and we all want the colts to do well regardless of the outcome from Manninggate will be.

That said, Manning is the system. The system is manning. With so much changing on D, its scary to rebuild the Offense from scratch as well. Its hard to say that either Luck or RGIII will fit into this system, but w/out PM here to help transition it will be even slower unless they scratch that system altogether.

I want the Colts to be succesful. Whatever that takes. If Manning can't go, I'm sure glad we have the first round with two great QBs to choose from. I also know that the leaf/manning choice could have gone either way 50%. So I hope we get the good side of the coin this time as well. All of you quick to dismiss PM, realize you are dismissing your future arriving sooner, even though you think it will arrive later with him here.

[WSO]

I think the odds of his being a complete bust are much higher than his being this supernatural quarterback we keep hearing about. This "greatest since SId Luckman" stuff is beyond ridiculous and is very unfair to the rookie. It is setting up all kinds of completely unreasonable expectations.

As for first round Pac 10 quarterbacks of the last 15 years. Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, Cade McNown, ...

I can go on for quite a while if you would like. Pac 10 quarterbacks are among the biggest busts in recent history because, other than USC during the championship years, there is a complete lack of defense in that conference.

Compare those first round Pac 10 quarterbacks to 1st overall Pac 10 quarterbacks and you will see a huge difference.

[UndecidedFrog]

Compare those first round Pac 10 quarterbacks to 1st overall Pac 10 quarterbacks and you will see a huge difference.

You should provide the list and the details for him. This way others can see as well.

[Rafiki]

For those wondering, let me show you all the Pac 10 QBs taken 1st overall in the SB Era:

Carson Palmer

Drew Bledsoe

John Elway

Steve Bartkowski

Jim Plunkett

3 of them have won Super Bowl(s)

All of them except Jim Plunkett have made the Pro Bowl (ironically he won 2 SBs)

9 SB appearances among them all with 5 wins.

The above does not make your point stronger, you know this right? The fact you only come up with 5 quality QB's from the Pac10 in the last 40yrs? When you put it that way its REALLY rolling the dice that you end up with a good QB, esp from the pac 10

Other Pac10 greats you forget?

Ryan Leaf

Matt Leinhart

John Booty

Kyle Boller

Akili Smith

Anyway there is no guarantee with any QB from any conference, just don't try and sell me on great Pac10 qbs lol.

[Rafiki]

Out of the greatest QB's in NFL history very few are first overall, its more about getting the right guy then it is drafting the best qb first overall each year.

round1 pick 1 John Elway

round6 pick 199 Tom Brady

round3 pick 82 Joe Montana

round1 pick 27 Dan Marino

round1 pick 1 Peyton Manning

round2 pick 32 Drew Brees

round* Steve Young ( supplemental draft )

round9 pick 102 Johnny Unitas

round2 pick 33 Brett Favre

round10pick 129 Roger Staubach

[UndecidedFrog]

I have a slightly different list based on SB wins, to add to your list.

1. Joe Namath - pre-consolidation days, picked by both NFL (Cards) and AFL (Jets)

2. Bob Griese - 1st round (4th overall) pick Dolphins

3. Terry Bradshaw - 1st overall pick Steelers

4. Jim Plunkett - 1st overall pick Patriots

5. Jim McMahon - 1st round (5th overall) pick Bears

6. Phil Simms - 1st round (7th overall) pick Giants

7. Doug Williams - 1st round (17th overall) pick Bucs

8. Troy Aikman - 1st overall pick Cowboys

9. Steve Young - signed with USFL LAExpress

10. John Elway - 1st overall pick Colts to Broncos

11. Trent Dilfer - 1st round (6th overall) pick Bucs

12. Ben Roethlisberger - 1st round (11th overall) pick Steelers

13. Peyton Manning - 1st overall pick Colts

14. Eli Manning - 1st overall pick Chargers to Giants

15. Aaron Rodgers - 1st round (24th overall) to Packers

[MSColtsFan]

I have a slightly different list based on SB wins, to add to your list.

1. Joe Namath - pre-consolidation days, picked by both NFL (Cards) and AFL (Jets)

2. Bob Griese - 1st round (4th overall) pick Dolphins

3. Terry Bradshaw - 1st overall pick Steelers

4. Jim Plunkett - 1st overall pick Patriots

5. Jim McMahon - 1st round (5th overall) pick Bears

6. Phil Simms - 1st round (7th overall) pick Giants

7. Doug Williams - 1st round (17th overall) pick Bucs

8. Troy Aikman - 1st overall pick Cowboys

9. Steve Young - signed with USFL LAExpress

10. John Elway - 1st overall pick Colts to Broncos

11. Trent Dilfer - 1st round (6th overall) pick Bucs

12. Ben Roethlisberger - 1st round (11th overall) pick Steelers

13. Peyton Manning - 1st overall pick Colts

14. Eli Manning - 1st overall pick Chargers to Giants

15. Aaron Rodgers - 1st round (24th overall) to Packers

The SB winning list.... and those guys add up to 26 titles. Good post.

[WSO]

The above does not make your point stronger, you know this right? The fact you only come up with 5 quality QB's from the Pac10 in the last 40yrs? When you put it that way its REALLY rolling the dice that you end up with a good QB, esp from the pac 10

Other Pac10 greats you forget?

Ryan Leaf

Matt Leinhart

John Booty

Kyle Boller

Akili Smith

Anyway there is no guarantee with any QB from any conference, just don't try and sell me on great Pac10 qbs lol.

Maybe you do not have your glasses on or have terrible reading comprehension. Let me make it bigger for you so you understand. PAC 10 QUARTERBACKS TAKEN 1ST OVERALL.

[UndecidedFrog]

Maybe you do not have your glasses on or have terrible reading comprehension. Let me make it bigger for you so you understand. PAC 10 QUARTERBACKS TAKEN 1ST OVERALL.

I will give Rafiki a hand. Here they are:

Carson Palmer (USC)

Drew Bledsoe (WSU)

John Elway (Stanford)

Steve Bartkowski (UC Berkeley)

Jim Plunkett (Stanford)

Troy Aikman (UCLA)

and projected to be ......Andrew Luck (Stanford)

[Jules]

So by this logic we should have ditched Peyton after year 4 right?

This reminds me of some dude a few years ago who said pass rushers decline at age 28. So Freeney and Mathis were nearing the end based on their age and that was his final answer. He was a Jags fan.

[Jules]

Do you really think Luck wants to come here and be the guy that replaces an icon. He's in a no win situation. If they go that route he will have no one around him to help him win. He will struggle and the fans will always hate him. At least when Manning came he had Faulk, Harrison and others. Who the heck is Luck going to have? Now, by trading the pick you can get numerous players and get young.

Another thing is, if you draft Luck, whose going to back him up? We've already been through that season.

By this logic why ever have a guy replace Manning? When he leaves or retires go QB-less forever. In memory and respect of Peyton.

[GoColts8818]

Wouldn't it make more sense to look at Andrew Luck and see how HE fits?

I'm sure there are SEC qbs that have flamed out, that doesn't mean Manning's going to suddenly suck.

Cough Tim couch cough jamarcus russel cough sorry something stuck in my throat there!

[Jules]

This only ends well if the Colts when a superbowl in the next 4 years. Either way, with Manning or Luck.

yes, with Luck, because I have really high expectations that the "best QB prospect in the past 20 years" should be good enough to win right away. It's funny how you luck lovers/Peyton quitters will be simpathetic to giving him all the time he needs. but you can't wait 3 months for Peyton's tricep.

I said 4 years for a superbowl. thats a long enough time. In fact, we'll be talking about new coaches if it doesnt happen by 4 years. If it goes past 4 years, then we will be the rams/lions. I'm not sure how you could argue against that.

I can't believe what I am reading. I keep coming back to this thread to check and make sure.

[Blue Horseshoe]

I will give Rafiki a hand. Here they are:

Carson Palmer (USC)

Drew Bledsoe (WSU)

John Elway (Stanford)

Steve Bartkowski (UC Berkeley)

Jim Plunkett (Stanford)

Troy Aikman (UCLA)

and projected to be ......Andrew Luck (Stanford)

I specifically said last 15 years (actually give or take a few). Defense has collapsed in that conference which lead to a bunch of fraudulent film and phony statistics. This is what has yielded undeserved first round grades.

[04DarkShadowGT]

first, are you saying it is good that they won 9, 9, and 8 games? wow low standards. I'd like to see you at a bar sometime. could be comical. SD is in the AFC west. they got to host a playoff game against the colts when they were 8-8. Crediting them for winning a divisional title is like saying kentucky is the best basketball college in their state. In fact, If I was a San Deigo fan, I wouldn't be content with that list you just made at all.

2nd the steelers, packers, patriots all won in 4 years with a new QB. - can't argue that

So do you want to be like san diego/rams/lions? or be like the pats/steelers/packers?

I personally would have really high expectations on the Colts to produce a superbowl team quickly, if the other good teams can, then we should too.

You really need to go back and re read my post because you clearly didnt get it the first time.

You said if Indy didnt win a SB with Luck in 4 years they would be the Lions or Rams. I simply said that is not true and now you are trying to put words in my mouth to somehow make your point seem less *ic.

You expect the guy who follows Manning to have success at a much faster rate than he did.

Now onto your examples of teams.

The Patriots were in the playoffs 3 out of the 5 years before Brady including a SB appearance.

The Steelers were in the playoffs 2 out of the 3 years before Big Ben, including two divsion titles with Tommy Maddox at QB.

The Packers were in the playoffs 5 out of the 7 years before Rodgers, including an NFC title game appearance the year before he became the starter. Not to mention Rodgers was with the team 3 years before starting.

The difference between those teams and this Colts team is neither of them fell to nearly the levels that Indy has the year before the new QB started. Those teams wre not undergoing a complete rebuilding process.

If you consider Luck a failure if he does not win in 4 years you have too high expectations. Manning wouldnt win a SB with this team right now.

I really think Luck wants to come here and follow up an icon. He said he wants to be the 1# pick. The fans will never hate him, they'll be luke warm on Irsay either way this pans out. If Luck is in fact a winner how long do you think this "perceived hate" will last, considering he's a total by standard in this scenario?

He will have potentially, even more likely if Peyton is forced to retire or is cut, the same supporting cast as the last few years.

I don't really think the team needs numerous picks, contrary to popular opinion around here, we needed last season and going forward quality QB play.

About as long as it takes him to win. If he starts winning everyone will be on board with Irsay and Luck, all will be forgiven and the bandwagon fans will be back in the seats and paying for jerseys and other items.

That being said, if the fans really do hate Luck when he gets here they are *s. Its not Lucks fault Manning would be gone, you support your team and that means your QB.