How would you feel drafting Forrest Lamp 15th overall?

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

OK.....

 

Now THAT'S funny!      Props to you!!          

You're right.  WR John Ross is probably better.  

 

You know, since Reggie hurt his knee, Grigson has never found a suitable #2, and Luck has been either having to carry the load or getting beat up waiting for someone to get open whilst TY is double teamed.  

 

Ross would put and end to that revolving door, and Aiken would be a good #3.

 

There's no good pass rushers worthy of 15, and the NFL short passing game has kind of made it a rotational position anyway.  And since there are plenty of #2/future  #1 CBs to be had in the 2nd round, getting a sure thing to finally replace Reggie is probably the way to go.

[Defjamz26]

9 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

Collins barely played last year though so he isn't part of the line we're discussing. 

 

Dallas aren't the only good line in the league, it's debatable whether they are even the best. Can you name another successful team with 4 guys on the o-line who were picked in the first 3 rounds?

 

If Clark wins the RT spot as he should the RG will actually be our only spot where we don't have a high pick playing.

It's basically the same for other teams too. The Raiders have (Jackson, Hudson, and Osemele) all in the first 3 rounds, although they didn't draft all of them. 

 

And even if Clark wins the RT spot, that doesn't mean you just don't draft O-lineman high anymore. Why not have 5? And Castonzo is in a contract year.

[ClaytonColt]

31 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

It's basically the same for other teams too. The Raiders have (Jackson, Hudson, and Osemele) all in the first 3 rounds, although they didn't draft all of them. 

 

And even if Clark wins the RT spot, that doesn't mean you just don't draft O-lineman high anymore. Why not have 5? And Castonzo is in a contract year.

Because having 5 means you've neglected other areas in the draft and results in an unbalanced team. Draft resources are finite and you have to spread them around.

 

So we can't find a team who has successfully drafted 4 offensive linemen in the early rounds but that is the standard we're measuring against?

[coltsfanatic24]

I think the offensive line is underrated and they played well the last 6 games of the season. I wouldn't draft Lamp in the first round with so much defensive talent available . 

[Defjamz26]

41 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

Because having 5 means you've neglected other areas in the draft and results in an unbalanced team. Draft resources are finite and you have to spread them around.

 

So we can't find a team who has successfully drafted 4 offensive linemen in the early rounds but that is the standard we're measuring against?

Or it means you took BPA and care about protecting your QB. Draft resources being limited is exactly why you might consider Lamp. You don't have time to miss in the 1st round because you needed defense so bad. Lamp is getting compared to Zack Martin. There's a very good chance he'll be BPA at 15. There's other rounds to get defensive talent too.

[Dark Superman]

He's a Zach Martin clone.

[Dark Superman]

Bring the Lamp to Training Camp!

[ClaytonColt]

1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

Or it means you took BPA and care about protecting your QB. Draft resources being limited is exactly why you might consider Lamp. You don't have time to miss in the 1st round because you needed defense so bad. Lamp is getting compared to Zack Martin. There's a very good chance he'll be BPA at 15. There's other rounds to get defensive talent too.

BPA is a fine concept but it has to help the team. You could have a situation where the BPA is a running back for 10 straight seasons but it won't make you a winning team.

[Track Guy]

17 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

BPA is a fine concept but it has to help the team. You could have a situation where the BPA is a running back for 10 straight seasons but it won't make you a winning team.

 

One big difference is, an O-lineman can help your RB, QB, and defense all at the same time. Lamp would help do this for us - at least to some extent.

[Defjamz26]

13 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

BPA is a fine concept but it has to help the team. You could have a situation where the BPA is a running back for 10 straight seasons but it won't make you a winning team.

So an OG that could protect the QB, improve the run offense, and play multiple positions isn't helping the team? And obviously BPA has rules. You don't constantly draft RBs and WRs in the first. But you do take an OG at 15 if there aren't game changing defensive players at 15. You don't just say "Well we have to go defense " and make a forced pick. You never draft for need but you use it in the decision making process when possible.

[ClaytonColt]

29 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

So an OG that could protect the QB, improve the run offense, and play multiple positions isn't helping the team? And obviously BPA has rules. You don't constantly draft RBs and WRs in the first. But you do take an OG at 15 if there aren't game changing defensive players at 15. You don't just say "Well we have to go defense " and make a forced pick. You never draft for need but you use it in the decision making process when possible.

It helps the offensive line clearly but as I keep saying I don't believe that good trams need to constantly use resources to have 5 top quality offensive linemen to succeed. Focusing so much draft stock into one area therefore doesn't help the team. There has to be balance.

 

The best lines in football aren't built on 4 or 5 high draft picks. Their built on 2 or 3 and then the gaps being creatively filled. I'll keep believing that and providing examples but I have yet to have an example of an o-line which is built purely from day 1 or 2 picks.

[rock8591]

BPA is a joke, because you can't compare players in different positions. Me, I think RB and Safety are 2 of the most overrated positions.

[Superman]

BPA is a misnomer, especially for those who can't get past the literal interpretation.

[NewColtsFan]

50 minutes ago, rock8591 said:

BPA is a joke, because you can't compare players in different positions. Me, I think RB and Safety are 2 of the most overrated positions.

 

50 minutes ago, rock8591 said:

BPA is a joke, because you can't compare players in different positions. Me, I think RB and Safety are 2 of the most overrated positions.

 

What do you think all 32 GM's do?    They compare players at different positions every day.    And especially as the draft approaches.      All players have a grade of some type.     That's how they compare players at different positions.

 

I confess you have a head scratching viewpoint,  unless there's more to this and I'm just not following.....

 

[rock8591]

How do you compare OJ Howard and Soloman Thomas? 

[akcolt]

On 3/23/2017 at 4:10 AM, ClaytonColt said:

Leary was the undrafted guy I was talking about...not Collins. 

 

The other guy was a 4th round pick which is a 3rd day selection. 

You are wrong Frederick Martin and Smith are 1st rounders and Chaz Green is a 3rd. 

[NewColtsFan]

32 minutes ago, rock8591 said:

How do you compare OJ Howard and Soloman Thomas? 

 

It can be any two players of different positions......

 

But you give each player a grade and then the grade determines who you value more.

 

Personally,  I have Thomas ranked higher than Howard,  but not by a lot,  and I'm sure some teams will have Howard higher than Thomas.      The only time it gets really interesting is if they have almost identical grades, and then the person who typically decides the debate,  the GM,  ranks them in his order of priority.

 

An NFL Big Board might have 1,000 names on it.     256 get drafted.    And then every team signs roughly another 20 players each for free agency.      All those names have individual grades and are stacked on the board in order of priority.     The GM and his staff figure out on a case by case basis who they value more.

 

 

[Track Guy]

1 hour ago, ClaytonColt said:

It helps the offensive line clearly but as I keep saying I don't believe that good trams need to constantly use resources to have 5 top quality offensive linemen to succeed. Focusing so much draft stock into one area therefore doesn't help the team. There has to be balance.

 

The best lines in football aren't built on 4 or 5 high draft picks. Their built on 2 or 3 and then the gaps being creatively filled. I'll keep believing that and providing examples but I have yet to have an example of an o-line which is built purely from day 1 or 2 picks.

 

Last season, the top O-lines were the Titans, Cowboys, and Raiders. Titans had 3 first round picks starting on their line, Cowboys had 3 first round picks starting on their line plus another guy who was projected to go in the first before a weird murder investigation made him a UDFA. The Raiders didn't draft their O-line for the most part, they bought theirs in free agency by outspending everyone and paying top dollar for talent that hits the market. 

 

Some of the worst O-lines were the Seahawks, the Chargers, and the Vikings. The Seahawks had 1 first round pick, Chargers have none (I think?), the Vikings had a bunch of injuries which made them worse than they probably should've been. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, ClaytonColt said:

It helps the offensive line clearly but as I keep saying I don't believe that good trams need to constantly use resources to have 5 top quality offensive linemen to succeed. Focusing so much draft stock into one area therefore doesn't help the team. There has to be balance.

 

The best lines in football aren't built on 4 or 5 high draft picks. Their built on 2 or 3 and then the gaps being creatively filled. I'll keep believing that and providing examples but I have yet to have an example of an o-line which is built purely from day 1 or 2 picks.

 

Maximize value.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, ClaytonColt said:

It helps the offensive line clearly but as I keep saying I don't believe that good trams need to constantly use resources to have 5 top quality offensive linemen to succeed. Focusing so much draft stock into one area therefore doesn't help the team. There has to be balance.

 

The best lines in football aren't built on 4 or 5 high draft picks. Their built on 2 or 3 and then the gaps being creatively filled. I'll keep believing that and providing examples but I have yet to have an example of an o-line which is built purely from day 1 or 2 picks.

 

Sure you have....      Dallas.

 

Smith,  high,  first round pick.

Martin,  mid-round,  first round pick.

Frederick,   low level,  first round pick.

 

There's 3 guys right there....

 

Then you can add Collins,  who, if drafted,  would've been a mid-level first round pick.     That's 4 guys.

 

Leary was a free agent.     And he's now moved on...

 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

We have three high round picks on the o-line, and our GM on record saying he likes Haeg and Clark. Also signed Schwenke. 

 

BPA and need aren't going to point to a OL imo. 

 

 

[ClaytonColt]

Just now, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sure you have....      Dallas.

 

Smith,  high,  first round pick.

Martin,  mid-round,  first round pick.

Frederick,   low level,  first round pick.

 

There's 3 guys right there....

 

Then you can add Collins,  who, if drafted,  would've been a mid-level first round pick.     That's 4 guys.

 

Leary was a free agent.     And he's now moved on...

 

I see we have an issue with counting.

 

I said that the best lines aren't built on 4 or 5 guys who are top picks. 

 

You've then gone on to name a team who has 3. Collins is an outlier due to his situation. The example of Dallas is just proving what I said over and over again.

[NewColtsFan]

10 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

I see we have an issue with counting.

 

I said that the best lines aren't built on 4 or 5 guys who are top picks. 

 

You've then gone on to name a team who has 3. Collins is an outlier due to his situation. The example of Dallas is just proving what I said over and over again.

 

Collins may be an outlier due to situation,  but the bottom line is,  he's a first round pick all day long.

 

So,  the Dallas line with be built with four first round draft picks.

 

My counting is fine.  

 

 

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, rock8591 said:

BPA is a joke, because you can't compare players in different positions. Me, I think RB and Safety are 2 of the most overrated positions.

 

Then I'll wager you don't 'grade' Safety or RB as high as players at other positions.  So there is some built in bias on the board(s).

 

Earlier, I posted some top 5 (or 10) players in a vertical board form.  I even posted a whole QB vertical board for 2017.  Elsewhere on his site, I ran across this...

{Explanation of draft boards, BPA, need, etc...}

"Here is the Horizontal Draft Board, which is the best players overall regardless of position. Each team has their own and this is what they draft off of. We will also be providing our vertical position boards, where players are ranked within their position.

After teams set their VERTICAL draft board (positions), they prepare their HORIZONTAL draft board (best players regardless of position) with each team establishing a Top 150 overall board based on grades, which means the “150” board can range anywhere from 120-200 players depending on how the grades fall in each of the 32 draft rooms.

THIS IS HOW NFL DRAFT BOARDS LOOK !!!

This is the list that they draft from. Because each team’s board differs due to scheme and how they perceive players in the draft, all a team needs is 150 or so players on their own board to complete their 7 rounds of picks.

What I do is rank all players with a 5.5 grade or above since this constitutes all players with a chance to make it and above. Since I am producing a league board to fit all teams, it will differ slightly than the board that I provide to teams as adjustments need to be made for schemes.

The NEED factor can NEVER factor in to how you GRADE a player, just whether you wish to take a player of need over the higher graded player. In all my draft experience, I have always taken the best player available and believe it is the most successful way to consistently build a winner.

Without regard to need, players with the same grade will be stacked according to importance to winning football games—quarterbacks, pass rushers (4-3 DE’s/3-4OLB’s), defensive tackles, offensive tackles, corners, receivers, running backs, tight ends, safeties, linebackers, centers, guards, specialists.

Of course with players of equal grade, you go for the greater need value for your team. But, when doing a league wide board, this is the proper way to stack one up because everyone’s needs slightly vary.

IT IS A RANKING OF THE BEST PLAYERS—NOT A PROJECTION OF WHERE PLAYERS WILL DRAFTED. Teams often pick for need and pass over better players which is the main reason (along with improper evaluation) that players who get drafted later often have better careers than players who were ranked higher than them. Teams will take players at a position of need when they are in the same grade plateau or if they feel there is better depth later on in the draft at one position, they may take a player at a weaker depth position earlier to assure themselves that they acquire one of quality."

 

Hope this clears up some of what teams do preparing their "war room" for draft day.

[ClaytonColt]

31 minutes ago, Track Guy said:

 

Last season, the top O-lines were the Titans, Cowboys, and Raiders. Titans had 3 first round picks starting on their line, Cowboys had 3 first round picks starting on their line plus another guy who was projected to go in the first before a weird murder investigation made him a UDFA. The Raiders didn't draft their O-line for the most part, they bought theirs in free agency by outspending everyone and paying top dollar for talent that hits the market. 

 

Some of the worst O-lines were the Seahawks, the Chargers, and the Vikings. The Seahawks had 1 first round pick, Chargers have none (I think?), the Vikings had a bunch of injuries which made them worse than they probably should've been. 

Another post that has difficulty counting. I said 4 or 5 and you've shown me 3?

[ClaytonColt]

6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Collins may be an outlier due to situation,  but the bottom line is,  he's a first round pick all day long.

 

So,  the Dallas line with be built with four first round draft picks.

 

My counting is fine.  

 

 

Technically he's and UDFA as they didn't spend a first round pick on him. You can't make him something he factually isn't. 

[Tmoney]

43 minutes ago, Majin Vegeta said:

We have three high round picks on the o-line, and our GM on record saying he likes Haeg and Clark. Also signed Schwenke. 

 

BPA and need aren't going to point to a OL imo. 

 

 

Scwhenke is not making anyone sleep better at night, he adds competition in camp and that's why I like him. He mentioned both Haeg and Clark but also said the right side is no where near set. As much potential as Clark has he's not ready to rely on full time this year. I think Haeg probably beats him out and his traits suite a RT better then G. He's long with a beautiful pass set and can also move in open space in the run game. His weakness is that he's kinda weak. He's better at handling speed apose to strength. I didn't just assume I watched Lamps film and the Zach Martin comparison is immediately what you think of. If he's there I'd take him and finally end the punishment Andrew has been getting. I expect Costanzo to be much better in a contract year but if he sucks or plays inconsistent we can move on with LeRaven Clark. 

[NewColtsFan]

33 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

Technically he's and UDFA as they didn't spend a first round pick on him. You can't make him something he factually isn't. 

 

But in terms of what he is,  his talent level,  he's a first round pick.

 

So, the Cowboys built their o-line with four first round picks,  even though they only used 3 draft picks to do it.

 

The 4th guy has first round talent.    To ignore it seems to be ignoring the Elephant in the Room....

 

Just saying....

 

[NewColtsFan]

1 minute ago, Tmoney said:

Scwhenke is not making anyone sleep better at night, he adds competition in camp and that's why I like him. He mentioned both Haeg and Clark but also said the right side is no where near set. As much potential as Clark has he's not ready to rely on full time this year. I think Haeg probably beats him out and his traits suite a RT better then G. He's long with a beautiful pass set and can also move in open space in the run game. His weakness is that he's kinda weak. He's better at handling speed apose to strength. I didn't just assume I watched Lamps film and the Zach Martin comparison is immediately what you think of. If he's there I'd take him and finally end the punishment Andrew has been getting. I expect Costanzo to be much better in a contract year but if he sucks or plays inconsistent we can move on with LeRaven Clark. 

 

Uless we draft Lamp in the first,  or someone like Feeney in the 2nd,  I'd be looking for a right side of Haeg at guard and Clark at tackle.

 

We're not making it official -- just yet -- because we don't know how the draft will play out.   

 

But once we see what we get,  I'd be looking for that combo to become the the desired duo....

 

 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

6 minutes ago, Tmoney said:

Scwhenke is not making anyone sleep better at night, he adds competition in camp and that's why I like him. He mentioned both Haeg and Clark but also said the right side is no where near set. As much potential as Clark has he's not ready to rely on full time this year. I think Haeg probably beats him out and his traits suite a RT better then G. He's long with a beautiful pass set and can also move in open space in the run game. His weakness is that he's kinda weak. He's better at handling speed apose to strength. I didn't just assume I watched Lamps film and the Zach Martin comparison is immediately what you think of. If he's there I'd take him and finally end the punishment Andrew has been getting. I expect Costanzo to be much better in a contract year but if he sucks or plays inconsistent we can move on with LeRaven Clark. 

The Titans had the #1 o-line last year, so obviously he was just depth there. But he could turn out to be a good player, who knows. I'm not banking on it but it's possible.  Clark has had over a year to learn the game, and did look a lot better later in the year. And Ballard brought them up specifically when asked about the entire roster, he didn't make any strong pushes for the good o-linemen in FA. And Haeg just needs to get stronger, who's to say he didn't this offseason a little already. It just seems like our line is definitely trending up.

While the defense is trending down. It's time to get a franchise defensive player. I'm not expecting us to have this high of a pick again for awhile, let's make good use of it. 

[ClaytonColt]

24 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

But in terms of what he is,  his talent level,  he's a first round pick.

 

So, the Cowboys built their o-line with four first round picks,  even though they only used 3 draft picks to do it.

 

The 4th guy has first round talent.    To ignore it seems to be ignoring the Elephant in the Room....

 

Just saying....

 

It's one line and it's one player. It's even a player who didn't play last year.

 

They didn't spend more than 3 high draft picks on their o-line no matter how much you dress it up. 

[Defjamz26]

3 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

It helps the offensive line clearly but as I keep saying I don't believe that good trams need to constantly use resources to have 5 top quality offensive linemen to succeed. Focusing so much draft stock into one area therefore doesn't help the team. There has to be balance.

 

The best lines in football aren't built on 4 or 5 high draft picks. Their built on 2 or 3 and then the gaps being creatively filled. I'll keep believing that and providing examples but I have yet to have an example of an o-line which is built purely from day 1 or 2 picks.

I think you're looking at it wrong. Just because there hasn't been a line with all high round picks doesn't mean that it's not feasible to do so. Are you supposed to draft 3 and then just say "Okay cool, got our 3 high round OL. Now let's get the other 2 in the 4th or later". Every situation is different. Maybe you don't NEED to have 5 high round picks on the OL to have a good one, but it doesn't mean you should avoid drafting one because of some imaginary cap on how many high round OL teams should draft. That's what you're implying by saying we don't need Lamp. That since we spent high picks on Castonzo, Mewhort, Kelly, and an unproven Clark then we don't need Lamp.

 

You're making it seem as if taking that many OL high means that you willingly passed over better defensive players. You make it seem like a slam dunk future pro-bowl defender is definitely going to be sitting there at 15.

[ClaytonColt]

3 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

I think you're looking at it wrong. Just because there hasn't been a line with all high round picks doesn't mean that it's not feasible to do so. Are you supposed to draft 3 and then just say "Okay cool, got our 3 high round OL. Now let's get the other 2 in the 4th or later". Every situation is different. Maybe you don't NEED to have 5 high round picks on the OL to have a good one, but it doesn't mean you should avoid drafting one because of some imaginary cap on how many high round OL teams should draft. That's what you're implying by saying we don't need Lamp. That since we spent high picks on Castonzo, Mewhort, Kelly, and an unproven Clark then we don't need Lamp.

 

You're making it seem as if taking that many OL high means that you willingly passed over better defensive players. You make it seem like a slam dunk future pro-bowl defender is definitely going to be sitting there at 15.

I don't think I am looking at it wrong and I'm not suggesting an imaginary cap on the number drafted. I'm just saying that I believe that if you spend too much resource on one area the other places on the team suffer and you don't succeed. 

 

It's not a slam dunk by any means but successful teams don't get built by continually drafting offensive line guys in the early rounds. That's just a simple fact.

[LockeDown]

The Colts have been starved for a great Oline for years and this temptation is staring us in the face.  He will be there at 15.  We really need defense but man......

[AZColt11]

2 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

The Colts have been starved for a great Oline for years and this temptation is staring us in the face.  He will be there at 15.  We really need defense but man......

I feel ya.  I struggle with this too.  Maybe if he were a tackle instead of a guard it wouldn't bother me so much.  Tough to draft a guard that high, but he has Pro-Bowler written all over him.

[Tmoney]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Uless we draft Lamp in the first,  or someone like Feeney in the 2nd,  I'd be looking for a right side of Haeg at guard and Clark at tackle.

 

We're not making it official -- just yet -- because we don't know how the draft will play out.   

 

But once we see what we get,  I'd be looking for that combo to become the the desired duo....

 

 

Agreed, idk about Feeney slow footed and not a great athlete in space. Lamp or bust as far as OL this year for me. Clark is really a work in progress, he could be our best OL one day but idk if he's even ready to beat out Haeg in a competition at RT rn. Haeg is extremely versatile but I think he's best outside at RT where he can use his athleticism and stay away from guys who can over power him. Clark can play behind Costanzo all year and if AC isn't consistent we don't resign him and move on. 

[NewColtsFan]

5 minutes ago, Tmoney said:

Agreed, idk about Feeney slow footed and not a great athlete in space. Lamp or bust as far as OL this year for me. Clark is really a work in progress, he could be our best OL one day but idk if he's even ready to beat out Haeg in a competition at RT rn. Haeg is extremely versatile but I think he's best outside at RT where he can use his athleticism and stay away from guys who can over power him. Clark can play behind Costanzo all year and if AC isn't consistent we don't resign him and move on. 

 

 

I don't think that's what you're going to see.     Clark is the future at RT,  and then long-term,  he is likely the replacement for Castanzo....      But unless Clark gets hurt or regresses terribly,  I think you're going to see him start at RT just as he did the last 3-4 games of last year.

 

[NewColtsFan]

8 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

It's basically the same for other teams too. The Raiders have (Jackson, Hudson, and Osemele) all in the first 3 rounds, although they didn't draft all of them. 

 

And even if Clark wins the RT spot, that doesn't mean you just don't draft O-lineman high anymore. Why not have 5? And Castonzo is in a contract year.

 

I think you meant Mewhort....     Castanzo just recently signed and is locked up through 2019.

 

Just wanted to make sure we're all on the same page....

 

 

 

[Tmoney]

1 hour ago, Majin Vegeta said:

The Titans had the #1 o-line last year, so obviously he was just depth there. But he could turn out to be a good player, who knows. I'm not banking on it but it's possible.  Clark has had over a year to learn the game, and did look a lot better later in the year. And Ballard brought them up specifically when asked about the entire roster, he didn't make any strong pushes for the good o-linemen in FA. And Haeg just needs to get stronger, who's to say he didn't this offseason a little already. It just seems like our line is definitely trending up.

While the defense is trending down. It's time to get a franchise defensive player. I'm not expecting us to have this high of a pick again for awhile, let's make good use of it. 

They both looked a lot better towards the end of the year and I'd hope they're working hard this off season. I just think adding a stud RG, kicking out Haeg to where he's more natural, and creating a great battle at RT makes this O-line possibly top 10 in the league. I'm 100% with you our D needs a lot of help and I've been preaching D round 1 for a while, but the more I think about it Andrew's health is seriously at risk and its not worth taking the gamble on trying to develop guys that aren't ready yet but have potential. I would not reach on a OL prospect, but Lamp is no reach IMO he'd actually be a steal. 

[Tmoney]

6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

I don't think that's what you're going to see.     Clark is the future at RT,  and then long-term,  he is likely the replacement for Castanzo....      But unless Clark gets hurt or regresses terribly,  I think you're going to see him start at RT just as he did the last 3-4 games of last year.

 

If we hypothetically draft Lamp tho, Clark competes with Haeg for RT and I have my money on Haeg. When exactly did we resign AC until 2019? Either way that gives another year for Clark to develop. He was decent in 3 games last year but he wasn't anything special and he definitely didn't lockdown any position. He has LT traits, but technique is still so raw. Philbin can develop him I'm confident in his coaching ability but not even he could have Clark ready by next year.