How can you deny Tom Brady as the Greatest QB of all time?

[GoPats]

 

Thought I would come out of retirement today. I wanted to check some old boards and see what's changed in nearly two years. 

 

I have to give a lot of you credit. I was never a Manning basher, but if he had clearly separated himself from Brady (and others) at any point in his career, I would have given him his due, no matter how difficult. Nice to see some of you doing that with Brady. 

 

The rest, well... some things don't change, I guess. 

 

 

[Nadine]

He can have the crown if he promises we never have to talk about it here again

[chad72]

I never understood the true significance of Peyton taking the play clock down all the way to 1 second and then handing off for a 1 or 2 yard run to keep Ds honest till I saw what not to do from the Falcons' offense. Clock control and keeping opposing QBs on the sidelines is an art too. 

 

[chad72]

11 minutes ago, GoPats said:

 

Thought I would come out of retirement today. I wanted to check some old boards and see what's changed in nearly two years. 

 

I have to give a lot of you credit. I was never a Manning basher, but if he had clearly separated himself from Brady (and others) at any point in his career, I would have given him his due, no matter how difficult. Nice to see some of you doing that with Brady. 

 

The rest, well... some things don't change, I guess. 

 

 

 

Welcome back!!!

 

Upon second thought, stay retired!!!  j/k

[GoPats]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Welcome back!!!

 

Upon second thought, stay retired!!!  j/k

 

A little older, not much wiser, but I'll see if I can contribute anything worthwhile. 

[PeterBowman]

3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

I never understood the true significance of Peyton taking the play clock down all the way to 1 second and then handing off for a 1 or 2 yard run to keep Ds honest till I saw what not to do from the Falcons' offense. Clock control and keeping opposing QBs on the sidelines is an art too. 

 

yep it makes sense now.

 

I understand that they're a very aggressive offensive but there is a such thing as situational football where it pays to be conservative. That bit Atlanta big time.

[chad72]

40 minutes ago, YourTearinApartLisa! said:

Belichick is without a doubt the greatest coach of all time. Period. Brady just has the luxury of having that type of coach and system. If you put Brady in a vertical style offense he wouldn't have near the success. You cannot deny his accomplishments but greatest ever? Talent wise I don't believe he's top ten. If I were building a team and you gave me a choice between Montana, Peyton, Marino, Moon, Elway or Brady without Belichick. I'm taking every one of them before Brady. Is he greatest based on Championships? Sure. But it's a team sport and his teammates and coaches play a lot into that. It's says something about a system that has yet to have a backup QB fail in it too.

 

Here is the deal. Peyton had a "system" too and when he had to go away from it with Kubiak, he could not be as efficient as he possibly could. The stability with Tom Moore's offensive system with periodic tweaks as opposed to re-vamping was a big part of Peyton's offensive stability too. So, yes, offensive stability matters, no matter how elite a QB you are. Yes, that is a coaching thing and good coaches maximize what works for them, it should however not take away from a QB's ability to execute it at a high level.

 

Plus, outside Carson Palmer in an Arians offense and "throw it up and hope it is a PI" Flacco, most QBs take shots just a few times a game based on what coverages dictate. In other words, the vertical style offense has not won championships as much as the crossing routes, mid-range horizontal offense from the Bill Walsh west coast days to the Aikman Cowboys days to the Patriots days, and coaches like Mike McCarthy with his WCO variations with Rodgers. It is not flashy but wears down a D and most playoff Ds guard against getting beat deep anyways, so it is logical as well to use the mid-range game along with runs thrown in.

 

That is why Chudzinski is going to have to use his TEs and RBs in the passing game more for future success for Luck in the playoffs. 

[PrincetonTiger]

No matter how Great he has played on the field every negative off the field issues will forever tarnish his career

[Surge89]

Let me start by saying I've never said Brady and the Pats were anything but great.  But I find it very funny that this game somehow solidifies Brady...  

 

This game, to me at least, showed me how amazing of a coach Belichek is.  He didn't go get a bunch of name players at half time...  He literally just changed what he had and completely shut the Atlanta offense down for almost 3 quarters... Something no one could do all season. 

 

Brady on the other hand was trying his hardest to throw the game away.  If Brady didn't have the luck of the gods we would be singing a completely different tune right now.  He threw 3 sure fire picks that would be intercepted in any other game.  And if Edelman didn't completely bail him out not once but 4 separate times in the 2nd half we would also be seeing a completely different result.  Its such a shame that the NFL and all who watch it are so enamored with the QB because the MVP of that game (as far as players) was Edelman.  He fought the entire ATL defense pretty much the whole night and still came out on top with a miracle catch to boot. Almost identical to Manning's supposed super bowl MVP performance which is also a shame since he wasn't all too special in that game either. 

 

This superbowl if anything to me showed how truly blessed Brady is.  He has the perfect luck with the best coach to ever grace the field. It also helps that he is quite talented himself. But if this somehow cements his legacy for you... that is quite sad as he wasn't anything special (this night) in fact I'd say he was almost detrimental, but of course the winner gets to write the tale. 

[Finball]

23 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Plus, outside Carson Palmer in an Arians offense and "throw it up and hope it is a PI" Flacco, most QBs take shots just a few times a game based on what coverages dictate. In other words, the vertical style offense has not won championships as much as the crossing routes, mid-range horizontal offense from the Bill Walsh west coast days to the Aikman Cowboys days to the Patriots days, and coaches like Mike McCarthy with his WCO variations with Rodgers. It is not flashy but wears down a D and most playoff Ds guard against getting beat deep anyways, so it is logical as well to use the mid-range game along with runs thrown in.

 

Also a good way to avoid QB getting hit gadzillion times a game.

[Gramz]

29 minutes ago, GoPats said:

 

Thought I would come out of retirement today. I wanted to check some old boards and see what's changed in nearly two years. 

 

I have to give a lot of you credit. I was never a Manning basher, but if he had clearly separated himself from Brady (and others) at any point in his career, I would have given him his due, no matter how difficult. Nice to see some of you doing that with Brady. 

 

The rest, well... some things don't change, I guess. 

 

 

Why would we change?  

 

[Gramz]

30 minutes ago, Nadine said:

He can have the crown if he promises we never have to talk about it here again

. Yes, by all means.

[2006Coltsbestever]

36 minutes ago, GoPats said:

 

Thought I would come out of retirement today. I wanted to check some old boards and see what's changed in nearly two years. 

 

I have to give a lot of you credit. I was never a Manning basher, but if he had clearly separated himself from Brady (and others) at any point in his career, I would have given him his due, no matter how difficult. Nice to see some of you doing that with Brady. 

 

The rest, well... some things don't change, I guess. 

 

 

Hats off to the win. That comeback was unreal. Brady and Peyton both have been awesome but Brady winning 5 Rings is pretty special.

[dynasty13]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Hats off to the win. That comeback was unreal. Brady and Peyton both have been awesome but Brady winning 5 Rings is pretty special.

 

We may never see anything like it again...

[Gramz]

44 minutes ago, GoPats said:

 

Thought I would come out of retirement today. I wanted to check some old boards and see what's changed in nearly two years. 

 

I have to give a lot of you credit. I was never a Manning basher, but if he had clearly separated himself from Brady (and others) at any point in his career, I would have given him his due, no matter how difficult. Nice to see some of you doing that with Brady. 

 

The rest, well... some things don't change, I guess. 

 

 

I have read your posts on the Planet. You're one of the biggest Manning Bashers,  and that's you're perogative. 

 

In any event, yeah congrats on the win.  

[GwinnettColt]

Easily.    I think Montana, Bradshaw when I think the Greatest QB's of All Time.  

 

When I think of the GOAT QB, I don't think Brady.  He'll always be Tuck Rule Tommy to me.  He's fortunate to play in Belichick's refined system.  He's a good QB, sure, but it was the system that got him where he is.   

 

They had a good last half of the fourth quarter while the Falcons went to sleep too early.  The win against the Seahawks was a fluke and the previous three were decided by only a few points.  

[BullsColtsFan1]

I'll say this.  He's in the discussion.  I'll admit this, Coach Belichick and Tom Brady are the most dominating coaching QB tandem of all time without question.  Brady having 4 superbowl MVP's and 5 rings is tough to argue against for being the GOAT.  Peyton played in 4 and won 2 but only has 1 SB MVP, all though Peyton has more all time yardage TD, etc as well as more regular season MVP's.  Peyton's the best regular season QB of all time but his post season wasn't as succesfull so I can see why people would take Brady(Rings talk) but I'll always take Peyton mainly because I am a  biased Colts fan .  Oh and I can't stand the Pats. I know Bradshaw, Montana, Young etc could be in the discussion as well.  The Pats had a heck of a season though and that comeback was insane!  They earned this one!

[dynasty13]

2 minutes ago, GwinnettColt said:

Easily.    I think Montana, Bradshaw when I think the Greatest QB's of All Time.  

 

When I think of the GOAT QB, I don't think Brady.  He'll always be Tuck Rule Tommy to me.  He's fortunate to play in Belichick's refined system.  He's a good QB, sure, but it was the system that got him where he is.   

 

They had a good last half of the fourth quarter while the Falcons went to sleep too early.  

 

Not worth arguing...but you think of Bradshaw when you think of Greatest QBs of All Time???

[SilentHill]

16 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

I deny it.  Peyton Manning has had better individual accomplishments.  Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino never had to cheat.  Brady is an exceptional talent, first ballot HoF.  But I don't think he's the best of all time.

 

+1

 

I'll even go a step further to say Brady is the greatest system QB of all time.

[GwinnettColt]

4 minutes ago, dynasty13 said:

 

Not worth arguing...but you think of Bradshaw when you think of Greatest QBs of All Time???

 

I would think of him moreso than Brady.  Not my intention to hurt anyone's feelings.  

[GoPats]

29 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Hats off to the win. That comeback was unreal. Brady and Peyton both have been awesome but Brady winning 5 Rings is pretty special.

 

Thank you sir. 

 

It was a pleasure watching them both play and shape the league the way they did. And I'm sure each would tell you that the other drove him to push even harder. 

 

[bap1331]

Easily.    I think Montana, Bradshaw when I think the Greatest QB's of All Time.  

 

When I think of the GOAT QB, I don't think Brady.  He'll always be Tuck Rule Tommy to me.  He's fortunate to play in Belichick's refined system.  He's a good QB, sure, but it was the system that got him where he is.   

 

They had a good last half of the fourth quarter while the Falcons went to sleep too early.  

 

Not worth arguing...but you think of Bradshaw when you think of Greatest QBs of All Time???

 

In my opinion, peyton is the best of all time. You can take away a defense and put a horrible oline and somehow peyton would figure out a way to win. That is just amazing. Brady gets rattled when hes not protected.

 

Sent from my SM-G935T *

 

 

[SilentHill]

15 hours ago, IcyRhythms said:

Manning, Marino, Favre, Rodgers, and a few others with a great defense would probably have 8 rings.

 

Doubtful, They all probably wouldn't take the below-market value contracts that Brady has signed over the years.

[will426]

Absurd amount of haters lol   man i know he's hated but damn let it go that mans the best this "system" talk is bs every qb has had to be in a system they didn't come into the league with that kind of authority to have it thier way from the start...I'm a Peyton lover and I'd damn sure pick Peyton anytime but the playoffs I'd take brady 99/100 times..they both do the exact same thing if anything Peyton's best ability haunted him some times and that was his audibles people eventually caught on and made it very difficult for him 

[will426]

3 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

 

In my opinion, peyton is the best of all time. You can take away a defense and put a horrible oline and somehow peyton would figure out a way to win. That is just amazing. Brady gets rattled when hes not protected.

 

Sent from my SM-G935T *

 

 

And Peyton throws multiple picks when flustered no qb remains cool calm and collected when being constantly hit but the ones who come out on top stand out more in which this case Brady does 

[Nadine]

46 minutes ago, Gramz said:

. Yes, by all means.

I swear, this game brought out people who want to talk politics AND pat fans.  Shouldn't they have gone to the falcons site?

[Gramz]

talk about groundhog day.....

 

Good grief, will we ever quit re-living this debate, or will it go on into eternity? 

 

The Pats won...we have to deal with it.

Brady has 5 rings... we have to deal with it.

We are Colts fans.  Peyton is our Goat.

Brady is the goat for Pats fans.

 

None of us will ever change the ways each of us feel.

 

I love the excitement they both brought to the game.

[GoPats]

22 minutes ago, Gramz said:

I have read your posts on the Planet. You're one of the biggest Manning Bashers,  and that's you're perogative. 

 

In any event, yeah congrats on the win.  

 

Post-Deflategate? With you and other Colts fans signing up on the Planet for the sole (and very obvious) purpose of schadenfreude? Yeah I might've shot back a time or two at that point. I think it's fair to say, that's human nature. 

 

Prior to that, I existed here as a regular contributor for a long, long time. 

 

I didn't come back here to pick any fights. And I've long-since learned everything I need to know about you, and your MO.

 

So let's just let it go.

 

 

 

[bap1331]

 

In my opinion, peyton is the best of all time. You can take away a defense and put a horrible oline and somehow peyton would figure out a way to win. That is just amazing. Brady gets rattled when hes not protected.

 

Sent from my SM-G935T *

 

 

And Peyton throws multiple picks when flustered no qb remains cool calm and collected when being constantly hit but the ones who come out on top stand out more in which this case Brady does 

In his early days maybe but not in his later years.

 

Sent from my SM-G935T *

 

 

[Narcosys]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

And I reject that as a justification. It's a legitimate factor, but it doesn't outweigh all other factors by itself. 

Ah, this is where I disagree.  I believe it to be an irrelevant factor to a person's greatness. Based the precedents of great players never getting one,  and terrible players getting them. 

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

Ah, this is where I disagree.  I believe it to be an irrelevant factor to a person's greatness. Based the precedents of great players never getting one,  and terrible players getting them. 

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

 

What terrible players have been the starting QB for five SB champ teams in 16 years?

[chad72]

44 minutes ago, SilentHill said:

 

Doubtful, They all probably wouldn't take the below-market value contracts that Brady has signed over the years.

 

Brady probably wouldn't have married Gisele if he were somewhere else, would he??? How much did that have to do with below-market value contracts?  

 

However, I doubt it was that much below market value.

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

However, I doubt it was that much below market value.

 

It wasn't. 

[Gramz]

34 minutes ago, GoPats said:

 

Post-Deflategate? With you and other Colts fans signing up on the Planet for the sole (and very obvious) purpose of schadenfreude? Yeah I might've shot back a time or two at that point. I think it's fair to say, that's human nature. 

 

Prior to that, I existed here as a regular contributor for a long, long time. 

 

I didn't come back here to pick any fights. And I've long-since learned everything I need to know about you, and your MO.

 

So let's just let it go.

 

 

 

You Wanna talk MO's.

 

Honest question.. would you be here today just to see if things had changed, if the Falcons had won?

[Narcosys]

17 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

 

What terrible players have been the starting QB for five SB champ teams in 16 years?

 

First off both of those fallacies are wrong.  I'm not presenting  black or white scenario or presuming that one thing leads to another.  If anything I'm doing the complete opposite. I'm saying rings should not factor. In fact,  if you want to apply those fallacies to my argument,  then they can be applied to your own. 

 

We're not discussing only people who have 5 rings,  as only two players in history have that many as a player. Brady and Charles Haley.  

 

I'm stating that the idea of even a single championship should not have any factor to a players greatness. In the precedents that players like Dan Marino that don't have any,  and players like dilfer, and even Bradshaw do. When you look at Bradshaw numbers,  he was below average.  But he has 4 rings. Do we really rank him higher than Marino because the rings are a factor.  No,  we make excuses about Bradshaw defense and him being a game manager at best. 

So we end up picking and choosing when rings are a factor.

 

You must apply your argument equally across the board.  This cannot be done with championships. 

[Colts_Fan12]

36 minutes ago, Gramz said:

You Wanna talk MO's.

 

Honest question.. would you be here today just to see if things had changed, if the Falcons had won?

Nope

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

 

First off both of those fallacies are wrong.  I'm not presenting  black or white scenario or presuming that one thing leads to another.  If anything I'm doing the complete opposite. I'm saying rings should not factor. In fact,  if you want to apply those fallacies to my argument,  then they can be applied to your own. 

 

We're not discussing only people who have 5 rings,  as only two players in history have that many as a player. Brady and Charles Haley.  

 

I'm stating that the idea of even a single championship should not have any factor to a players greatness. In the precedents that players like Dan Marino that don't have any,  and players like dilfer, and even Bradshaw do. When you look at Bradshaw numbers,  he was below average.  But he has 4 rings. Do we really rank him higher than Marino because the rings are a factor.  No,  we make excuses about Bradshaw defense and him being a game manager at best. 

So we end up picking and choosing when rings are a factor.

 

You must apply your argument equally across the board.  This cannot be done with championships. 

 

We're talking about one guy. Tom Brady. He's the only QB in NFL history to be the starting QB for five SB teams.

 

Your argument is that rings have no bearing on his greatness, and that's a black and white argument. In Brady's case, they do. You're arguing that Marino (and the like) not winning a ring doesn't mean he wasn't great, and while that's true, it has nothing to do with Brady's standing. Rings don't of themselves make a player great, same as lack of rings don't diminish a player's greatness, and no one is arguing that to be the case. I didn't mean false cause, I meant strawman. 

 

We're not picking and choosing when rings are a factor. We're considering all the evidence that's available. Unlike Dilfer, who was lucky to be on one SB team, and cut before the following season, Brady has been on five, and is a difference maker. Unlike Bradshaw, who had below average numbers (and that's arguable for his era), Brady has high level individual passer stats, two MVPs, 12 Pro Bowls, etc. 

 

Brady is not an average QB who has been along for the ride for multiple SBs. He has been the best player on his team for over a decade, he's a difference maker at the most important position in team sports, he has great individual stats... without a single ring, he's a first ballot HOFer. He is not Dilfer or Bradshaw or Johnson. If someone wants to claim that Brady is better than anyone else simply because he has five rings, I would agree with you, rings don't make the player, even at QB.

 

But Brady isn't just five rings. He's a great player with great individual accomplishments, he's been a major factor for an organization with great team accomplishments, he has a record of sustained success under a variety of circumstances... The rings don't make the man, but they do dress him up a little bit.

[19colt]

I don't think it has been mentioned here yet surprisingly but when you talk about if Brady is even top 10 all-time if the defense & OL are suspect and the coaching is below GOAT'ness (BB) then you also can't forget that Brady is 1*-3 in the biggest possible game he could play against the the most credible rival QB of his generation. 

[-JJ-]

22 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

We're talking about one guy. Tom Brady. He's the only QB in NFL history to be the starting QB for five SB teams.

 

Your argument is that rings have no bearing on his greatness, and that's a black and white argument. In Brady's case, they do. You're arguing that Marino (and the like) not winning a ring doesn't mean he wasn't great, and while that's true, it has nothing to do with Brady's standing. Rings don't of themselves make a player great, same as lack of rings don't diminish a player's greatness, and no one is arguing that to be the case. I didn't mean false cause, I meant strawman. 

 

We're not picking and choosing when rings are a factor. We're considering all the evidence that's available. Unlike Dilfer, who was lucky to be on one SB team, and cut before the following season, Brady has been on five, and is a difference maker. Unlike Bradshaw, who had below average numbers (and that's arguable for his era), Brady has high level individual passer stats, two MVPs, 12 Pro Bowls, etc. 

 

Brady is not an average QB who has been along for the ride for multiple SBs. He has been the best player on his team for over a decade, he's a difference maker at the most important position in team sports, he has great individual stats... without a single ring, he's a first ballot HOFer. He is not Dilfer or Bradshaw or Johnson. If someone wants to claim that Brady is better than anyone else simply because he has five rings, I would agree with you, rings don't make the player, even at QB.

 

But Brady isn't just five rings. He's a great player with great individual accomplishments, he's been a major factor for an organization with great team accomplishments, he has a record of sustained success under a variety of circumstances... The rings don't make the man, but they do dress him up a little bit.

good post. I would just add this with the caveat I don't get into these arguments and for one it's on another teams board so of course there is bias.

 

I watch how good a QB  is with my eyes- how he plays. Brady had good stats last night but as BB once said- if you play good the stats will just come.

 

I don't tend to knock QBs and even Dilfer played well in his SB- in fact he had better passing stats than most games he ever played. He did the job.

 

oh yeah for some of the other posters I just LOL at system QB. Every QB plays in a system. Period  

[21isSuperman]

2 hours ago, SilentHill said:

 

+1

 

I'll even go a step further to say Brady is the greatest system QB of all time.

It's an interesting thought.  I read somewhere that something like 85% of Brady's throws last night were 6 yards or shorter.  I don't think he's a system QB.  I think he's one of the best QBs to ever play the game.  I think New England's coaches have built a great system and are exceptional at adapting the system to fit their players.  Brady does well within the system (as do several other QBs), but that doesn't mean Brady is a system QB