How can you deny Tom Brady as the Greatest QB of all time?

[IcyRhythms]

12 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

And every one of them had a media hype story to give the NFL views New Orleans fighting back after Katrina Ray Lewis retiring from the Ravens and Peyton Manning going out on top 

That is true. Puts things into perspective a bit. A lot story lines attached to these SB's.

[Colts_Fan12]

2 minutes ago, IcyRhythms said:

That is true. Puts things into perspective a bit. A lot story lines attached to these SB's.

I feel like it's just a damn scripted soap opera anymore 

[coltsfan77]

I know this is the nfl general section, but this should never show up on a Colts message board as a discussion! Bad enough we have to listen  to tools all over sports media, the last thing is wanting to hear our fans saying the same things. Peyton put this organization on the map, and who knows what his accomplishments could have been if the Colts would have ever put the supporting cast around him as the pats have Brady. Without that cast he did remarkable things. Call me a homer and I don't care! Brady is great but will never let go of the fact the pats were able to go 14-6 without him and the one time we lose Peyton, 2-14 and drafting first, enough said!!

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, IcyRhythms said:

That is true. Puts things into perspective a bit. A lot story lines attached to these SB's.

All of the SBs since the Colts victory have been very predictable. Been able to guess most of them before the playoffs begun. Only one I got wrong was the Giants/Pats game where I thought the Pats would have an undefeated season and David Tyree made that obscure helmet catch that probably changed the desired result. I know the NFL is rigged in the SB to have the storybook, feel good, ending, and I put money on it every year.

[Corndog]

29 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

I dont know. Once you cheat, you have no credibility.

 

No doubt Falcons should have won last night if it werent for that hold (bad call) that took that out of field goal range. The field goal wouldve sealed the deal. The CB had a facemask on the falcons that wasnt called. Totally unfair.

 

In the end, the NFL needs to profit from the Patriots fan base and the bandwagoners. The NFL knows there is no money in the Falcons market. I think the NFL is just run by the mafia now like boxing. The last real Super Bowl winner was the Colts in 2007. Not a big market but still won fairly.

We actually talked about this in the "How much longer will you watch the NFL?" thread.  How the Super Bowls have all been storyline driven since the 2008 Super Bowl, between the evil cheating Patriots who were undefeated versus the little engine that could in the Giants. The 2007 Superbowl didn't have a clear cut "bad guy/good guy"  it was simply a football game between two football teams that were relatively close to each other.  Then you look at the 2009 Super Bowl, how the Colts were portrayed as the bad guys and the Saints were going to avenge Hurricane Katrina.  

[Yoshinator]

2 minutes ago, coltsfan77 said:

I know this is the nfl general section, but this should never show up on a Colts message board as a discussion! Bad enough we have to listen  to tools all over sports media, the last thing is wanting to hear our fans saying the same things. Peyton put this organization on the map, and who knows what his accomplishments could have been if the Colts would have ever put the supporting cast around him as the pats have Brady. Without that cast he did remarkable things. Call me a homer and I don't care! Brady is great but will never let go of the fact the pats were able to go 14-6 without him and the one time we lose Peyton, 2-14 and drafting first, enough said!!

If you want to make an argument for Peyton being as good as Brady, it can be that he didn't have Brady's defenses, and you need a great defense around you usually to win a SB. However, Peyton was a no1 overall pick, and that usually means getting drafted to the worst team. A lot of no1 picks do poorly early on because of the poor team around them and very few win a SB. Peyton was a victim of that as well and probably underachieved. The only other team he would of went to possibly is San Diego, and I don't know how different his career would of been there.

[IcyRhythms]

1 minute ago, Jared Cisneros said:

If you want to make an argument for Peyton being as good as Brady, it can be that he didn't have Brady's defenses, and you need a great defense around you usually to win a SB. However, Peyton was a no1 overall pick, and that usually means getting drafted to the worst team. A lot of no1 picks do poorly early on because of the poor team around them and very few win a SB. Peyton was a victim of that as well and probably underachieved. The only other team he would of went to possibly is San Diego, and I don't know how different his career would of been there.

He would have had a decent defense and played with LT some point. That would have been HUGE for the Chargers.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, IcyRhythms said:

He would have had a decent defense and played with LT some point. That would have been HUGE for the Chargers.

No guarantee he plays with LT. The Chargers would have to get the no1 pick like they did with Ryan Leaf, and Peyton probably would of been a bit better than that on the Chargers. Yes, he would of been huge for them.

[Buddy Lee]

14 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

I dont know. Once you cheat, you have no credibility.

 

No doubt Falcons should have won last night if it werent for that hold (bad call) that took that out of field goal range. The field goal wouldve sealed the deal. The CB had a facemask on the falcons that wasnt called. Totally unfair.

 

In the end, the NFL needs to profit from the Patriots fan base and the bandwagoners. The NFL knows there is no money in the Falcons market. I think the NFL is just run by the mafia now like boxing. The last real Super Bowl winner was the Colts in 2007. Not a big market but still won fairly.

I agree with you on two of your points. 

 

1) I kept wondering what are the Pats doing to cheat tonight? After all, it's in their DNA, isn't it? (Somewhere in the Pats playbook is: "If you aren't cheating, you're not trying hard enough.")

2) That missed face mask penalty was egregious. Possibly a game outcome changer.

 

I will disagree with you on the holding penalty. I thought it was a good call all the way.

If the NFL were so intent on the Pats winning, why was Brady suspended and a first round draft choice taken away?

[IcyRhythms]

The Patriots are cheating scum, and for that, Tom Brady can never be mentioned in the GOAT conversation. It's difficult to cry about missed or bad calls, though. Those happen in EVERY game. It just sucks when your team is on the receiving end. *shrugs*

[2006Coltsbestever]

It's tough to argue that Tom isn't the best ever after last night. He is the most accomplished QB in the SB era with 5 Rings and 4 SB MVP's. Having said that would he have had all this success without Belichick? Imagine if Peyton would've had Belichick for 15 years of his career? Hats off to Tom for taking advantage of his situation being Coached by Belichick who always has built solid Defenses. I am fine with people putting Tom #1 and Montana #2 then maybe Unitas or Peyton next because Tom has accomplished more than any of those guys on the big stage. Answer this though, if you were starting a franchise from scratch and both Tom and Peyton had Average Coaches and weak teams, who would you draft 1st? Many Dolphins fans feel Dan Marino is better than Joe Montana as well. Marino never had a team around him like Joe did, especially Joe's Defenses.

[Yoshinator]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It's tough to argue that Tom isn't the best ever after last night. He is the most accomplished QB in the SB era with 5 Rings and 4 SB MVP's. Having said that would he have had all this success without Belichick? Imagine if Peyton would've had Belichick for 15 years of his career? Hats off to Tom for taking advantage of his situation being Coached by Belichick who always has built solid Defenses. I am fine with people putting Tom #1 and Montana #2 then maybe Unitas or Peyton next because Tom has accomplished more than any of those guys on the big stage. Answer this though, if you were starting a franchise from scratch and both Tom and Peyton had Average Coaches and weak teams, who would you draft 1st? Many Dolphins fans feel Dan Marino is better than Joe Montana as well. Marino never had a team around him like Joe did, especially Joe's Defenses.

Honestly, starting a franchise from scratch with an average coach and weak team, I'd probably take Brady. Why take Manning all over again and get the same results? Unless you could guarantee a decent team would be built around him this time. I'd rather take Brady and hope he continues to be clutch in the playoffs.

[Yoshinator]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It's tough to argue that Tom isn't the best ever after last night. He is the most accomplished QB in the SB era with 5 Rings and 4 SB MVP's. Having said that would he have had all this success without Belichick? Imagine if Peyton would've had Belichick for 15 years of his career? Hats off to Tom for taking advantage of his situation being Coached by Belichick who always has built solid Defenses. I am fine with people putting Tom #1 and Montana #2 then maybe Unitas or Peyton next because Tom has accomplished more than any of those guys on the big stage. Answer this though, if you were starting a franchise from scratch and both Tom and Peyton had Average Coaches and weak teams, who would you draft 1st? Many Dolphins fans feel Dan Marino is better than Joe Montana as well. Marino never had a team around him like Joe did, especially Joe's Defenses.

Also to this, if you asked if you had a solid team already built and you needed a QB, I would take Manning because I'd want to see if he could of matched Brady.

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Also to this, if you asked if you had a solid team already built and you needed a QB, I would take Manning because I'd want to see if he could of matched Brady.

That is the thing and why it is tough to decide who the actual GOAT is. If you give Peyton the same teams that Brady has had for 15 years, why is there any reason to believe Peyton wouldn't of won at least 4 or 5 Rings? Peyton has always had the ability to comeback from big deficits as well and actually called his own plays more than Tom has.

[eseae]

you cant. its that simple. why there is 4 pages on this is beyond me. Its like no one's been paying attention for a decade and a half...add last night to it, the debate is OVER.

 

god bless!

[jskinnz]

5 hours ago, coltsfeva said:

How much does playing by the rules enter into your definition of "greatness"? I could say Brady is one of the greatest but there will always be that shady part of his career that leaves a stain on his legacy. Rings are a team accomplishment, they are contingent on great coaching, defense and team play. Two of Brady's rings were handed to him by Pete Caroll and Dan Quinn. Had those coaches made the right decisions, this thread wouldn't exist because Brady would be 3-4 in SBs.  Brady is the most accomplished qb in the SB era. Calling him the greatest ignores his lack of character. Since it's so subjective, we'll all have our opinions. In some people's opinion, he is the GOAT. But those of us who factor in playing by the rules as a requirement of being great, he disqualified himself from the discussion.

 

Thank you for the reasoned response.

 

My two cents...

 

I think the whole "playing by the rules" thing is a slippery slope.  While I think Brady played a role in the Deflategate, I also think every team gets into the grey area of the rules to one degree or another.  Where is the line?  Just as an example, how many Colt players got busted for PED's this season? Personally I don't this his legacy will be stained much at all.

 

Rings are in fact a team accomplishment but he and Belechick are the common thread throughout their run.  Tells me he had a pretty large hand in what they have accomplished.  

 

You cite the gifts that Quinn and Caroll gave the Pats.  Several things there.  First, the Pats (and Brady) still had to make plays to get them in position to take advantage of the breaks they were given.  Secondly, if you somehow hold those wins against him, don't you then have to give him some credit for the two losses when he put his team in position to win both but the defense let in late scores?  Plus I am in the camp that believes just making to the Super Bowl is an amazing accomplishment in and of itself.

 

So again, thanks for the reasonable response.  I just see it the same way.

[Buck Showalter]

37 minutes ago, Buddy Lee said:

If the NFL were so intent on the Pats winning, why was Brady suspended and a first round draft choice taken away?

If you buy into the 'story-line' aspect of the NFL, even a little bit, it is not that far fetched to develop a story-line or two from this...

[P-Vegas]

52 minutes ago, coltsfan77 said:

I know this is the nfl general section, but this should never show up on a Colts message board as a discussion! Bad enough we have to listen  to tools all over sports media, the last thing is wanting to hear our fans saying the same things. Peyton put this organization on the map, and who knows what his accomplishments could have been if the Colts would have ever put the supporting cast around him as the pats have Brady. Without that cast he did remarkable things. Call me a homer and I don't care! Brady is great but will never let go of the fact the pats were able to go 14-6 without him and the one time we lose Peyton, 2-14 and drafting first, enough said!!

The salary cap is the same for every team.  The facts are, Colts always have major flaws.  And we often have had bigger names than New England.  It's a question of management.  Think about what is the one constant for all these years of futility.  When you figure out who that is, you'll know who to blame.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Like I said I have no problem with people putting Tom #1 now. The guy is always in the Final 4 and has won 5 SB's but doesn't either scandal = the Gates even factor in to anyone's thinking when just saying he is the GOAT? Just a question. Both times Peyton won there was no scandal, we beat them fair and square in 2006 and last season when Denver won they won fair and square without any controversy. The only thing people really have is, is that Peyton played poorly in the SB last season but he still won. Tom played poorly vs the Rams actually and so did Ben vs the Seahawks but nobody ever brings that up.

[Narcosys]

1 hour ago, Jared Cisneros said:

After reading every comment on this thread, i have to say this, there's really no debate anymore or any rational reason to think Brady isn't the GOAT. There have been more arguments for Peyton being better than Brady from that side than anyone, and understandably so as Colts fans. It does reveal something very shocking and disturbing though. By thinking Peyton is better than Brady, are we happier with complete dominance in the regular season, and losing in the playoffs one and done rather than winning playoffs games and getting to the SB? Do individual stats and regular season record mean more to us than championships? Is this the mentality of the Colts fan base? I would say it seems so.

 

So Dan Marino is trash?

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Narcosys said:

 

So Dan Marino is trash?

That is what I mean, most people just look at Rings. If that is case why doesn't people put Terry Bradshaw in the Top 5, nobody does. Is it because he looks like the local Weatherman and Tom belongs in GQ  

[Narcosys]

10 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is what I mean, most people just look at Rings. If that is case why doesn't people put Terry Bradshaw in the Top 5, nobody does. Is it because he looks like the local Weatherman and Tom belongs in GQ  

 

That's why I think that a championship, from the most team oriented sport in professional sports, cannot be used to justify greatness.  Are we really putting Trent dilfer and Joe Flacco over Dan Marino? 

Smh

[Superman]

Brady has the individual accomplishments to be in the discussion. He has sustained greatness over a long period of time. And while I believe postseason success is a greater indication of team greatness than individual greatness, and I don't think that a handful of games in the playoffs should outweigh a greater sample size over a player's entire body of work... 

 

It's come to the point that Brady's entire body of work, including in the postseason -- and with great consideration to the historic comeback in last night's game -- has him at the top of the list. Everyone's mileage may vary, but if I'm listing QBs in order, based on my own opinion and what I think matters most, Brady is at the top of the list.

 

And I say that as one of the biggest Peyton Manning fans ever. I still believe Brady has had more favorable circumstances over his career, starting with coaching, and I believe that if Manning and Brady swapped places, Manning would have 5+ rings and Brady would have struggled to get more than 1. But that's a huge "IF," and it's mostly irrelevant. On talent and ability, I don't know if I'd say that Brady is better than Manning, or Favre, or Marino, or Elway, or whoever. But his career has been phenomenal.

[Superman]

8 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

 

That's why I think that a championship, from the most team oriented sport in professional sports, cannot be used to justify greatness.  Are we really putting Trent dilfer and Joe Flacco over Dan Marino? 

Smh

 

Of course not, but let's not make the mistake of putting Dilfer and Flacco in the same category as Tom Brady.

 

On individual accomplishments, as a QB, Brady belongs in the conversation with Marino, and all the other greats. Dilfer and Flacco do not.

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 minutes ago, Superman said:

Brady has the individual accomplishments to be in the discussion. He has sustained greatness over a long period of time. And while I believe postseason success is a greater indication of team greatness than individual greatness, and I don't think that a handful of games in the playoffs should outweigh a greater sample size over a player's entire body of work... 

 

It's come to the point that Brady's entire body of work, including in the postseason -- and with great consideration to the historic comeback in last night's game -- has him at the top of the list. Everyone's mileage may vary, but if I'm listing QBs in order, based on my own opinion and what I think matters most, Brady is at the top of the list.

 

And I say that as one of the biggest Peyton Manning fans ever. I still believe Brady has had more favorable circumstances over his career, starting with coaching, and I believe that if Manning and Brady swapped places, Manning would have 5+ rings and Brady would have struggled to get more than 1. But that's a huge "IF," and it's mostly irrelevant. On talent and ability, I don't know if I'd say that Brady is better than Manning, or Favre, or Marino, or Elway, or whoever. But his career has been phenomenal.

Great Post. I kind of think the same way. I factor in Rings but those are team accomplishments too. Stats, League MVP's and SB MVP's are more of how an individual performs and Peyton does Have 5 League MVP's. If I was doing a list I would have no problem with it looking like this

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Unitas

4. Peyton

5. Elway

-then maybe Favre or Marino as probables for Top 5. I like Elway a little better than Favre or Marino but that is just my preference.

[Narcosys]

15 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Of course not, but let's not make the mistake of putting Dilfer and Flacco in the same category as Tom Brady.

 

On individual accomplishments, as a QB, Brady belongs in the conversation with Marino, and all the other greats. Dilfer and Flacco do not.

I completely agree,  but most people seem to point to rings a their justification. 

[Gramz]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Great Post. I kind of think the same way. I factor in Rings but those are team accomplishments too. Stats, League MVP's and SB MVP's are more of how an individual performs and Peyton does Have 5 League MVP's. If I was doing a list I would have no problem with it looking like this

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Unitas

4. Peyton

5. Elway

-then maybe Favre or Marino as probables for Top 5. I like Elway a little better than Favre or Marino but that is just my preference.

How many on your list have ever been suspended for league violations?

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Narcosys said:

I completely agree,  but most people seem to point to rings a their justification. 

They do and it is wrong but it is a factor. Of course Marino's stats/career smokes Dilfer's overall  

[bap1331]

I dont know. Once you cheat, you have no credibility.

 

No doubt Falcons should have won last night if it werent for that hold (bad call) that took that out of field goal range. The field goal wouldve sealed the deal. The CB had a facemask on the falcons that wasnt called. Totally unfair.

 

In the end, the NFL needs to profit from the Patriots fan base and the bandwagoners. The NFL knows there is no money in the Falcons market. I think the NFL is just run by the mafia now like boxing. The last real Super Bowl winner was the Colts in 2007. Not a big market but still won fairly.

Denver New Orleans Baltimore are not big market teams. They all won fairly

 

Lol denver is a huge market team. New orleans wasnt a big market team but gained alot of bandwagoners. Baltimore is the same as new orleans.

 

Falcons didnt gain any bandwagoners and colts dont much either.

 

Sent from my SM-G935T *

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Gramz said:

How many on your list have ever been suspended for league violations?

I was getting ready to bring that up but you beat me too it. If I added in the scandal's = the Gates than my list could be easily be shot down having Brady #1. and maybe justifiable.

[Gramz]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I was getting ready to bring that up but you beat me too it. If I added in the scandal's = the Gates than my list could be easily be shot down having Brady #1. and maybe justifiable.

 yeah.  Sorry to  but it is certainly something I have an issue with.

[bap1331]

I dont know. Once you cheat, you have no credibility.

 

No doubt Falcons should have won last night if it werent for that hold (bad call) that took that out of field goal range. The field goal wouldve sealed the deal. The CB had a facemask on the falcons that wasnt called. Totally unfair.

 

In the end, the NFL needs to profit from the Patriots fan base and the bandwagoners. The NFL knows there is no money in the Falcons market. I think the NFL is just run by the mafia now like boxing. The last real Super Bowl winner was the Colts in 2007. Not a big market but still won fairly.

I agree with you on two of your points. 

 

1) I kept wondering what are the Pats doing to cheat tonight? After all, it's in their DNA, isn't it? (Somewhere in the Pats playbook is: "If you aren't cheating, you're not trying hard enough.")

2) That missed face mask penalty was egregious. Possibly a game outcome changer.

 

I will disagree with you on the holding penalty. I thought it was a good call all the way.

If the NFL were so intent on the Pats winning, why was Brady suspended and a first round draft choice taken away?

 

The way i see it. What evidence did the NFL have to say sean payton knew about the saints bounty to suspend him for a year.

 

On the other hand, deflategate had so much evidence, (most of it destroyed by the nfl) but the key evidence was the text messages between the pats equipment managers that said they were instructed by brady to deflate the balls in exchange for merchandise. Then you have bill belichick completely getting dismissed with no knowledge about the incident. Brady and belichick should have both been suspended for a year. Instead brady agreed to take the blame and still complain about a 4 game suspension.

 

Anyways 10 years from now i can see brady on oprah admitting to his cheating. Just like lance armstrong and the other athletes have done on camera. Lol. They will get their karma one day. Until then, all i care about is my colts and winning the big one!!! With integrity. We have luck and hopefully ballard will get us that dream defense weve always wanted. Aside from 2006.

 

Sent from my SM-G935T *

 

 

[chad72]

4 minutes ago, bap1331 said:

 

Lol denver is a huge market team. New orleans wasnt a big market team but gained alot of bandwagoners. Baltimore is the same as new orleans.

 

Falcons didnt gain any bandwagoners and colts dont much either.

 

Sent from my SM-G935T *

 

 

 

True. But if it was Brees and Sean Payton in their 2009 prime, they would have adjusted faster than Kyle Shanahan and played clock control better, IMO. They would not have squandered a chance to get points after their team won an onside kick and neither would have Brees taken the sack. I was just pointing that out since you mentioned New Orleans.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Gramz said:

 yeah.  Sorry to  but it is certainly something I have an issue with.

I do too that is why I can see both sides of the coin. Last night had me so disappointed. I did pick the Pats to win but when the Falcons were up 28-3 I was like man this is awesome.

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

I completely agree,  but most people seem to point to rings a their justification. 

 

And I reject that as a justification. It's a legitimate factor, but it doesn't outweigh all other factors by itself. 

[Superman]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I do too that is why I can see both sides of the coin. Last night had me so disappointed. I did pick the Pats to win but when the Falcons were up 28-3 I was like man this is awesome.

 

Epic collapse. 

[Superman]

22 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Great Post. I kind of think the same way. I factor in Rings but those are team accomplishments too. Stats, League MVP's and SB MVP's are more of how an individual performs and Peyton does Have 5 League MVP's. If I was doing a list I would have no problem with it looking like this

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Unitas

4. Peyton

5. Elway

-then maybe Favre or Marino as probables for Top 5. I like Elway a little better than Favre or Marino but that is just my preference.

 

I don't know what to say about Unitas. To me, he and Bart Starr and even Roger Staubach belong to a different era in which the game was entirely different than it is now. I even have trouble putting Bradshaw in the discussion for this era, but that doesn't matter because Bradshaw isn't in the conversation for great QBs, for me.

 

Objectively, no problem with that order. Subjectively, give me Peyton.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I don't know what to say about Unitas. To me, he and Bart Starr and even Roger Staubach belong to a different era in which the game was entirely different than it is now. I even have trouble putting Bradshaw in the discussion for this era, but that doesn't matter because Bradshaw isn't in the conversation for great QBs, for me.

 

Objectively, no problem with that order. Subjectively, give me Peyton.

Yeah QB's like Unitas and Graham both are tough to rank because their best seasons came before the SB era, Unitas did win a SB in 1970 but he was passed his prime. Graham played way before the SB era. If I was just building a Franchise from scratch I would take Peyton but that is mainly because I think he could take a 1-15 team to a winning record with not much. Brady and Montana have proven to be more clutch though so it's tough to choose.

[19colt]

3 hours ago, PeterBowman said:

also one thing to consider.....notice how bad Brady was until his OL finally their act together. He gets all the credit (and he's still great) but when his OL falters so does he. Which is why I'm sure they had to lure Dante Scarnecchia back out of retirement.

I think they just wore down the Falcons pass rush to the point where they looked like they were in slow motion in the 4th quarter. This is what happens when you throw the ball a billion times.

[YourTearinApartLisa!]

Belichick is without a doubt the greatest coach of all time. Period. Brady just has the luxury of having that type of coach and system. If you put Brady in a vertical style offense he wouldn't have near the success. You cannot deny his accomplishments but greatest ever? Talent wise I don't believe he's top ten. If I were building a team and you gave me a choice between Montana, Peyton, Marino, Moon, Elway or Brady without Belichick. I'm taking every one of them before Brady. Is he greatest based on Championships? Sure. But it's a team sport and his teammates and coaches play a lot into that. It's says something about a system that has yet to have a backup QB fail in it too.