Moving forward, Are we completely comfortable with the Offensive play calling

[NewColtsFan]

 

Strictly from a ratings perspective,  the stats say that 2016 has been Luck's best year.

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Strictly from a ratings perspective,  the stats say that 2016 has been Luck's best year.

 

 

Yeah I loved what he did this season and I prefer Chud over Pep but in 2014 Luck threw for 40 TD's and we won 11 games. I thought Luck had better decision making this season though.

[Smoke317]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Strictly from a ratings perspective,  the stats say that 2016 has been Luck's best year.

 

 

Show those stats. 

[NewColtsFan]

8 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Show those stats. 

 

Here is Luck's profile.

 

Highest completion percentage and basically tied for his highest ever rating.

 

http://www.colts.com/team/roster/Andrew-Luck/ea912f8f-b6a5-4782-8b64-835b8fd58805

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Here is Luck's profile.

 

Highest completion percentage and basically tied for his highest ever rating.

 

http://www.colts.com/team/roster/Andrew-Luck/ea912f8f-b6a5-4782-8b64-835b8fd58805

Yeah I think his decision making has been better under Chud, like I Posted earlier. Less Turnovers and higher Comp%, so that is the best argument for Chud IMO. Under Pep, Luck made more Bad decisions but he did have 40 TD's so the debate is close. We won 11 games in 2014 but our Defense was better so that had something to do with it.

[Tsarquise]

7 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well....  first, from a stats standpoint,  2016 was Luck's best year.    

 

And the offense was more balanced this year,  despite having a terrible offensive line for more than half of this season.     The line gelled around game 10 or so,  but up until then,  the line was giving up sacks and hits at an unprecedented levels.     Worse than any line Luck has had.    And then they began to gell.

 

I think Chud gets a pass because it's hard to run your offense with a line that bad.    He made the most of what we had and what he could do.

 

The problem with Pep is that once there was a book on him,  once the opposition had tape on what Pep liked to do,  he couldn't beat a good team.     He beat 5 very good teams in 2013, which I repeatedly noted to those who hated him,   but once opposing DC's saw what he liked to do,   Pep was cooked.    He couldn't beat a good team in '14 or 15.     It was very frustrating.

 

Chad's game against Denver where Luck got hurt in 2015,  was masterful.    Remember, that was the #1 defense in the NFL that year.    That's how Denver won the Super Bowl.   And Chud beat them.

 

I'm not giving Chud a complete pass.     I didn't like certain calls and formations and uses of personnel and the lack of other calls that would've been helpful.     But I try not to micro-analyze things where I only know so much.     I'm deeply concerned that in the two Houston games and the KC game it looked like the Colts were well scouted.    That they knew what we were going to run when we broke our huddle.    I describe it as looking like we're playing a defense that has 12 guys on the field at all times.    We can't block them and we can't find gaps in the secondary.     That's very high on my list of concerns.

 

But on balance, with Chud's history even prior to coming to Indy,  his time as the OC in Carolina where he guided Cam Newtwon to a great year or two,  Chud has a very good league wide reputation.    He's not just a guy, as one poster called him.    He's proven himself.     So, I think on balance,  I want to see another year of him before I pass judgement.    

 

I gave Pep more than two years,   so I'm willing to give Chud more than one.

Pep beat the Bengals twice and Denver, at Denver, in the playoffs. With Hasselbeck, he beat the Texans. 

[Smoke317]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah I loved what he did this season and I prefer Chud over Pep but in 2014 Luck threw for 40 TD's and we won 11 games. I thought Luck had better decision making this season though.

I think in ways Luck's decision making has improved this season but it's also regressed at the same time. He became way too TY reliant. He didn't spread the ball around nearly enough. I truly believe that Luck was injured all of last year. No proof of that but just from what I saw, he did not look himself from game 1 on. So I don't think last year was all Pep's fault. I do think Chud deserves some credit for getting us to 8-8 last year and definitely some blame for getting us to 8-8 this year. 

 

And im not saying Chud was a complete disaster. Once he got past the Ferguson project, he did have "some" beautiful gameplans. Namely both Tennessee games but the 1st one down in Tennessee was a thing of beauty. Also, the Minnesota game and Jets game. The 2nd half of the Jags finale (where he used more than TY). He just lacked the consistency.  Our offense stayed too hot and cold. With an improved Luck, that should be unacceptable. With improved weapons around Luck that's unacceptable. With a young Oline, it's unacceptable to continue to call deep routes when you've shown an ability to call a quicker hitting attack for Matt last year and for Luck vs Tennessee this year...

 

In my opinion, Chud failed Luck and the Colts this year. But so did Pagano as well. Get K. Shanahan or McDaniels in here.  Some offensive minds that can take Luck to the next level. Under those guys, only injury will keep Luck from getting 4500 yards and 40 TD's a year. If Pep deserved to go, Chud deserves to as well. I want an OC that can teach Luck and help him improve. Not ride his coattails and ultimately hold him back from being the QB he should be. 

[Tsarquise]

7 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Here is Luck's profile.

 

Highest completion percentage and basically tied for his highest ever rating.

 

http://www.colts.com/team/roster/Andrew-Luck/ea912f8f-b6a5-4782-8b64-835b8fd58805

Alex Smith had a completion percentage of 67.1.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I think in ways Luck's decision making has improved this season but it's also regressed at the same time. He became way too TY reliant. He didn't spread the ball around nearly enough. I truly believe that Luck was injured all of last year. No proof of that but just from what I saw, he did not look himself from game 1 on. So I don't think last year was all Pep's fault. I do think Chud deserves some credit for getting us to 8-8 last year and definitely some blame for getting us to 8-8 this year. 

 

And im not saying Chud was a complete disaster. Once he got past the Ferguson project, he did have "some" beautiful gameplans. Namely both Tennessee games but the 1st one down in Tennessee was a thing of beauty. Also, the Minnesota game and Jets game. The 2nd half of the Jags finale (where he used more than TY). He just lacked the consistency.  Our offense stayed too hot and cold. With an improved Luck, that should be unacceptable. With improved weapons around Luck that's unacceptable. With a young Oline, it's unacceptable to continue to call deep routes when you've shown an ability to call a quicker hitting attack for Matt last year and for Luck vs Tennessee this year...

 

In my opinion, Chud failed Luck and the Colts this year. But so did Pagano as well. Get K. Shanahan or McDaniels in here.  Some offensive minds that can take Luck to the next level. Under those guys, only injury will keep Luck from getting 4500 yards and 40 TD's a year. If Pep deserved to go, Chud deserves to as well. I want an OC that can teach Luck and help him improve. Not ride his coattails and ultimately hold him back from being the QB he should be. 

Great points. It was ashame Luck got injured in 2015 after the Denver game, I thought Chud called a masterpiece in that one. We looked like SB Champions in that game.

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

Pep beat the Bengals twice and Denver, at Denver, in the playoffs. With Hasselbeck, he beat the Texans. 

Very true. Cant debate that. IMO, Luck's biggest win in his career was winning at Denver vs Peyton and Von Miller in the Divisional Round. Nobody wins there normally.

[Smoke317]

25 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well....  first, from a stats standpoint,  2016 was Luck's best year.    

 

And the offense was more balanced this year,  despite having a terrible offensive line for more than half of this season.     The line gelled around game 10 or so,  but up until then,  the line was giving up sacks and hits at an unprecedented levels.     Worse than any line Luck has had.    And then they began to gell.

 

I think Chud gets a pass because it's hard to run your offense with a line that bad.    He made the most of what we had and what he could do.

 

The problem with Pep is that once there was a book on him,  once the opposition had tape on what Pep liked to do,  he couldn't beat a good team.     He beat 5 very good teams in 2013, which I repeatedly noted to those who hated him,   but once opposing DC's saw what he liked to do,   Pep was cooked.    He couldn't beat a good team in '14 or 15.     It was very frustrating.

 

Chad's game against Denver where Luck got hurt in 2015,  was masterful.    Remember, that was the #1 defense in the NFL that year.    That's how Denver won the Super Bowl.   And Chud beat them.

 

I'm not giving Chud a complete pass.     I didn't like certain calls and formations and uses of personnel and the lack of other calls that would've been helpful.     But I try not to micro-analyze things where I only know so much.     I'm deeply concerned that in the two Houston games and the KC game it looked like the Colts were well scouted.    That they knew what we were going to run when we broke our huddle.    I describe it as looking like we're playing a defense that has 12 guys on the field at all times.    We can't block them and we can't find gaps in the secondary.     That's very high on my list of concerns.

 

But on balance, with Chud's history even prior to coming to Indy,  his time as the OC in Carolina where he guided Cam Newtwon to a great year or two,  Chud has a very good league wide reputation.    He's not just a guy, as one poster called him.    He's proven himself.     So, I think on balance,  I want to see another year of him before I pass judgement.    

 

I gave Pep more than two years,   so I'm willing to give Chud more than one.  

 

 

Ok. Good point NCF. I owe you an apology. I'm sorry. You're right. Against top flight defensive minds, Pep did seem over his head.  Even though he beat the 49ers & Seahawks & Broncos as well.  Like I said, I wanted him fired too though. But I still don't agree with giving Chud a pass.

 

The offensive line was terrible for the first half of the season and then some. But as a professional OC, that's when you lean more on your running game and quicker routes. From week 1, I was begging for a Gore/Turbin timeshare. 15 carries to 10 minimum. That's 25 carries a game.  You don't take a young Oline and ask them to pass protect for 5 & 7 step drops all game. You let them gel by run blocking more and building their confidence and continuity. That falls on Chud. 

 

Im not willing to give him another year. I'd rather move on but if he stays, I pray that he can see things better and call a better game because it's a damn shame when a fan like me can see the need for a Gore/Turbin committe yet it takes him over 12 weeks to figure it out. For a proven OC, he's left much to be desired in my estimation. 

[Tsarquise]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Great points. It was ashame Luck got injured in 2015 after the Denver game, I thought Chud called a masterpiece in that one. We looked like SB Champions in that game.

Didn't look like super bowl champions in 2016 against Denver. 

 

Allen (I think) blocking Von Miller one on one in an obvious passing situation. That's laughable. 

[Smoke317]

And to all that I offended, I'd like to apologize. Namely NCF.  You provided some great points and taught me some things. Thank you for the discussion brother. I'm gonna shut my mouth and go relax before I get banned. And I can't think of any other place to discuss my favorite team, so I don't want that to happen. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Tsarquise said:

Alex Smith had a completion percentage of 67.1.

 

Not highest in the league.    Just Luck's personal highest.

 

[NewColtsFan]

56 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

And to all that I offended, I'd like to apologize. Namely NCF.  You provided some great points and taught me some things. Thank you for the discussion brother. I'm gonna shut my mouth and go relax before I get banned. And I can't think of any other place to discuss my favorite team, so I don't want that to happen. 

 

Apology accepted.

 

I got pulled away from the discussion due to family concerns.

 

But now that I'm back I'd like to share more reasons why I like Chud so much.    Honestly,  I'm a bit embarrassed that I forgot it in the heat of the moment.     This is a great Chud story.

 

When Luck got hurt in 2015,  Chud basically re-invented the offense.   I know I called it the Hasselbeck offense for those 9 weeks.     A much shorter passing game.   more running at key times.    More unpredictable play cals,   not necessarily more risk,  but more outside the box thinking.     

 

With an aging and banged up back-up in Hasselbeck,  and then the 3rd string QB Whitehorse,  and then in the last week,  we used TWO QB's for the last game,  Josh Freeman and Ryan Lindley.    And in that game, we brilliantly asked Freeman to only take us from the 20 to the opposing 20.    And then we used Lindley.    We asked Freeman to learn most of, but not all the playbook, and then asked Lindley to learn the Red Zone offense.

 

All of that,  from Hasselbeck, to Whitehurts to the twin QB's in the same game was some of the best offensive coordinating I've ever seen,  and that spans roughly 50 years of watching the NFL.     And, in my viewpoint, was way outside the skill-set of Pep Hamilton.    No way would we have gone 6-3 with that QB scenario.    Not with Pep.   

 

So,  I'd like to see what our current offense can do under Chud in Year 2 of his offense.   Most everyone should improve in their 2nd year of this offense.    Everyone except Gore is young and improving,  we should have a terrific offense in '17.     I look forward to it.     And if it doesn't happen, then I'd expect the new HC to bring in his own OC in '18.

 

Sorry for the add-on,  but I wanted to put this on the record while we were on the topic.

 

Thanks for your patience, and the apology......

 

We move forward!            

[Tsarquise]

13 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Not highest in the league.    Just Luck's personal highest.

 

I know, Im just saying that that stat alone doesn't mean that Lucks 2016 season was better than his 2014 season.

[NewColtsFan]

4 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

I know, Im just saying that that stat alone doesn't mean that Lucks 2016 season was better than his 2014 season.

 

Not alone....   but combined with all his other stats,  I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude this was his best statistical year. 

 

I see where reasonably people can differ on this....   but I just think there's an argument that can be made.....

 

On balance,  I think the entire offense can go to another level next year.    And that should be exciting for all of us to see.........

 

[RockThatBlue]

***Mod Note***

 

Had to clean up this thread, no more race posts...thank you.

[NagelHausForge]

I actually thought the play calling was too horrible last season... we saw some direct snaps, and if I am not mistaken even some flea flickers... I think execution is more the issue as opposed to play calling.  Drops, wrong routes, bad throws, crappy protection (which usually resulted in the bad throws), and at times bad vision by the RBs really hampered the offense.

 

Hopefully another year under the same scheme will help and if some of the younger players develop that will help improve things.  I really like what Rogers and Swoope showed.  I thought Turbin proved his worth both running and catching out of the backfield.  Maybe Gore has one year left but if not I wouldn't mind seeing what Turbin can do as our premier back with a younger RB behind him.

 

Its the Defense that I am concerned about... We need help in all 3 levels... D-Line, LB and DB.  Hard to address all of those areas in one draft/FA period.

 

All in all, I think things are looking somewhat up as long as Pagano and the new GM can work together to improve the team.  Lord knows I have been critical of Pagano and his staff... but lets see what he can do in 2017.

[gacker65]

Have to wonder how much is the play called or Luck changing the play at the line.  Once that is answered then we will understand why throw deep on 3rd and 2.

[JColts72]

No..it sucks, run first, run second Luck's continued 10 yard drops to pass basically one TE (Doyle) and 2 WR's; Dorsett does not count as he's the invisible  man.

[lollygagger8]

16 hours ago, Dilger85 said:

Mike Martz while in StL ran a version of the Coryell offense.  They threw plenty of screens sometimes even to the TEs.  He mainly used TEs or Slot receivers to work the middle but I remember that was a complaint that I had with his offenses during the time that I followed the Rams.

 

Norv Turner runs a version of the Coryell offense as well.  He utilized Novaceck in Dallas and Gates in SD better than Martz did any of his TEs.  Norv also utilized the run game better.

 

Chud in Cleveland used the TE relentlessly.  That was the one year the Winslow Jr actually had a good year.  Then in Carolina, he employed a heavy effective running game.

 

I am not sure if it was personnel or philosophy or what but it does seem like his offense is different from his previous stops.  But to summarize, the Coryell concepts allow for everything that you have mentioned but are currently not being employed.

 

 

Great post all around! 

 

The bolded section is the part I'm having trouble with when I watch games.

 

I can't tell if Chud: 

1) is really that inconsistent in his play calling 

2) doesn't have the right players at skill positions 

3) is battling with Pags, who is meddling in the play calling 

 

I don't believe #2, because we'll have a lot of games where the game plan is garbage, but then turn around and have a great game plan like the Vikings game. 

[coltsfeva]

  So much comes down to the efficiency of the O-line. (Even NE had problems when Brady was hurried by Denver or Baltimore). 

  

  With that being said, I'm hoping to see a more multi-faceted offense that does all things well: runs, screens, slants, roll-outs and deep passing. To do all of those things well, the O-line has to improve and it appears they are headed in the right direction. I belive the Colts do have the personnel right now to do these things (with the addition of a back that can take it to the house). And coaches have to adapt.

  The last point is where it gets a little divisive among fans. Some believe the coaches can't adapt and what we see is what we get. I disagree. I think both Pagano and Chud can learn and grow. I don't believe there has ever been a coach that had all of the answers in the beginning of their careers. (In Bill Belichick's first 7 years, he was 41-54, with only 1 winning season). In no way am I saying Pagano is Belichick. Then again, who is. The point is, his success came after years of "failure".

 

   

[lennymoore24]

I like Chud overall.  I hope on short yardage situations, they get away from the shotgun and actually just pound it up the middle.  They is my only complaint.  Otherwise, I think Chud schemes much better than Hamilton and really helps Luck.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

My biggest issue with the playcalling is that I feel like Pagano meddles way too much in it. If he was some type of brilliant offensive mind, I'd have no issue with it, but it's pretty clear that he's way behind the times in regards to offensive gameplanning. So basically I think Pagano holds Chudzinski back a lot with his "vision" of what our offense is supposed to look like, and it's very possible he did the same with Pep Hamilton. He needs to just let Chud and Luck do their thing, and the Colts will win more games as a result.

[Jason_]

1 hour ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

My biggest issue with the playcalling is that I feel like Pagano meddles way too much in it. If he was some type of brilliant offensive mind, I'd have no issue with it, but it's pretty clear that he's way behind the times in regards to offensive gameplanning. So basically I think Pagano holds Chudzinski back a lot with his "vision" of what our offense is supposed to look like, and it's very possible he did the same with Pep Hamilton. He needs to just let Chud and Luck do their thing, and the Colts will win more games as a result.

 

This is just my opinion, but I think it'd be more likely that it would have been Grigson doing that than Pagano. 

[Superman]

18 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I wasn't wild about the play calling,  but I have to say I think of the 5 years that we've had this administration,  the play calling was better than 13, 14 and 15.     And before you say something negative, let's remember,  we've always had high rankings on offense.      Oh, and we have high rankings again.   

 

I continue to think if we didn't have such terrible O-line play the first roughly 9-10 weeks of the season,  we wouldn't be having this conversation again and again.     I think the O-line play was our biggest problem.  Bad o-line play impacts everything you do and don't do.

 

I disagree with you, specifically on these two points. Big picture, yes, the offense was productive, and was definitely better than the defense. I'm not willing to settle for 'productive,' not when we have a good/great QB.

 

So, to the rankings: The Colts were 10th in total yards, 8th in points, 7th in 3rd down percentage, 4th in red zone efficiency. Not bad at all. But we all know that this offense moved in fits and starts at critical times this season. There was a LOT of bad play calling, a LOT of slow starts, and a LOT of missed opportunities. They went cold down the stretch in the first Texans game, then called some silly protections in the second Texans game. They struggled to move the ball in the first half of both Jags games. I could go on. There are several reasons for that, and execution is a big one, but when you run an offense that doesn't stress efficiency, you're going to have some dry spells. The design of this offense all but promotes bad offense at times.

 

And regarding the OL, yes, the line struggled to protect early. So why run an offense that basically requires great protection? Why does your QB have one of the longest snap to throw times in the league? Why don't you run screens, run-pass options, slants, etc., even against off coverage? Why focus on stretching the defense vertically, and almost NEVER take advantage of the voids in the short middle of the field?

 

There are fundamental issues with this offense. The fact that they are in the top third in major statistical categories -- despite a flawed approach, and despite substandard execution -- is only a source of frustration for me. That makes me think that if they ran more efficient concepts, took better advantage of the space created by the vertical threats, and took pressure off of the limited OL, rather than asking the line to do what it's proven it can't, that this offense could be one of the very best in the league. It makes me think that if they tightened up the execution -- coach them up on screen plays, reduce the drops and penalties -- they could be even more productive and more efficient.

 

So I'm not willing to settle for 'hey, they're better than they were the past couple years!' I'm not willing to deflect attention to the other, more flawed units. Yes, the offense is pretty good, statistically, and yes, there are critical issues in other areas -- coaching, defense, overall roster quality -- and those have to be addressed before this team is a title contender. But the offense is talented enough to carry this team to double digit wins every year. It's highly disappointing that they left so much meat on the bone in 2016, and to me, that all comes back to the approach of the coaching staff.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 hour ago, Jason_S said:

 

This is just my opinion, but I think it'd be more likely that it would have been Grigson doing that than Pagano. 

 

I dunno, you could be right, but Pagano's the one that fired Pep. When we get our new GM, hopefully he brings in his own coach, and with both of them out of the picture, it'll likely be a non-issue.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I disagree with you, specifically on these two points. Big picture, yes, the offense was productive, and was definitely better than the defense. I'm not willing to settle for 'productive,' not when we have a good/great QB.

 

So, to the rankings: The Colts were 10th in total yards, 8th in points, 7th in 3rd down percentage, 4th in red zone efficiency. Not bad at all. But we all know that this offense moved in fits and starts at critical times this season. There was a LOT of bad play calling, a LOT of slow starts, and a LOT of missed opportunities. They went cold down the stretch in the first Texans game, then called some silly protections in the second Texans game. They struggled to move the ball in the first half of both Jags games. I could go on. There are several reasons for that, and execution is a big one, but when you run an offense that doesn't stress efficiency, you're going to have some dry spells. The design of this offense all but promotes bad offense at times.

 

And regarding the OL, yes, the line struggled to protect early. So why run an offense that basically requires great protection? Why does your QB have one of the longest snap to throw times in the league? Why don't you run screens, run-pass options, slants, etc., even against off coverage? Why focus on stretching the defense vertically, and almost NEVER take advantage of the voids in the short middle of the field?

 

There are fundamental issues with this offense. The fact that they are in the top third in major statistical categories -- despite a flawed approach, and despite substandard execution -- is only a source of frustration for me. That makes me think that if they ran more efficient concepts, took better advantage of the space created by the vertical threats, and took pressure off of the limited OL, rather than asking the line to do what it's proven it can't, that this offense could be one of the very best in the league. It makes me think that if they tightened up the execution -- coach them up on screen plays, reduce the drops and penalties -- they could be even more productive and more efficient.

 

So I'm not willing to settle for 'hey, they're better than they were the past couple years!' I'm not willing to deflect attention to the other, more flawed units. Yes, the offense is pretty good, statistically, and yes, there are critical issues in other areas -- coaching, defense, overall roster quality -- and those have to be addressed before this team is a title contender. But the offense is talented enough to carry this team to double digit wins every year. It's highly disappointing that they left so much meat on the bone in 2016, and to me, that all comes back to the approach of the coaching staff.

 

Rob Chudzinski didn't get stupid overnight.

 

He's been a well respected OC at various stops in the NFL.

 

I thought he had a great last half season in 2015.

 

I don't pretend to know what all the problems were for the team,  but I suspect there are reasons why we didn't do what we didn't do.      I'd like more shorter and medium passes....     perhaps this is a Pagano thing?    I don't know.      What I do know is that I like this offense better than I have the last 3 years.    So, to me,  that's an improvement.  

 

I'm happy to give him another year and see what he does when he's got a much, much better OL than he's had before.      Let's see if the offense doesn't look at least a little different.

 

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Rob Chudzinski didn't get stupid overnight.

 

He's been a well respected OC at various stops in the NFL.

 

I thought he had a great last half season in 2015.

 

I don't pretend to know what all the problems were for the team,  but I suspect there are reasons why we didn't do what we didn't do.      I'd like more shorter and medium passes....     perhaps this is a Pagano thing?    I don't know.      What I do know is that I like this offense better than I have the last 3 years.    So, to me,  that's an improvement.  

 

I'm happy to give him another year and see what he does when he's got a much, much better OL than he's had before.      Let's see if the offense doesn't look at least a little different.

 

 

I'm absolutely not calling Chud stupid. He's forgotten more about running an offense than I'll ever know (cliched, but probably true). I'm also not calling Bruce Arians stupid, or Mike Martz, or Norv Turner, or Marty Schottenheimer, or Al Saunders, etc. They are all very well respected, and accomplished.

 

What I am saying is I find their offensive philosophy to be dated, and I find it to be overly reliant on great protection (which is part of the reason it's dated; it's hard to build a good OL anymore). We don't even have good protection.

 

I do think Pagano prefers this offense, since he hired Arians, and Chud, and Brian Schottenheimer, all Coryell guys. The one guy that he might not have been leading the charge on is Pep, and he's the guy that was the least suitable, objectively. So I'm not laying this all at Chud's feet. Chuck wants his offense, that's why he hired him. Realistically, I want a coordinator to run the offense he believes in, which is why I wouldn't hire a Coryell guy. But it's not up to me.

 

We'll see if he does a better job getting the offense going next year, establishing a rhythm, using the middle of the field, etc. But even if we have a great OL, philosophically, I'm not a great fan of the offense.

[Dilger85]

24 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm absolutely not calling Chud stupid. He's forgotten more about running an offense than I'll ever know (cliched, but probably true). I'm also not calling Bruce Arians stupid, or Mike Martz, or Norv Turner, or Marty Schottenheimer, or Al Saunders, etc. They are all very well respected, and accomplished.

 

What I am saying is I find their offensive philosophy to be dated, and I find it to be overly reliant on great protection (which is part of the reason it's dated; it's hard to build a good OL anymore). We don't even have good protection.

 

I do think Pagano prefers this offense, since he hired Arians, and Chud, and Brian Schottenheimer, all Coryell guys. The one guy that he might not have been leading the charge on is Pep, and he's the guy that was the least suitable, objectively. So I'm not laying this all at Chud's feet. Chuck wants his offense, that's why he hired him. Realistically, I want a coordinator to run the offense he believes in, which is why I wouldn't hire a Coryell guy. But it's not up to me.

 

We'll see if he does a better job getting the offense going next year, establishing a rhythm, using the middle of the field, etc. But even if we have a great OL, philosophically, I'm not a great fan of the offense.

I do not think it is outdated at all.  There are still many teams around the league that use the offense or variations off the offense.  The Coryell offense relies on timing and shifts/formations to create match up problems.  Joe Gibbs instituted the H-Back in the offense and established a heavy running game with and the same with Marty Schottenheimer; Cam Cameron and the Ravens did as well; Chudz did as well while in Carolina and Cleveland.  Then you have guys like Martz, Arians, and McCarthy that prefer to throw the ball around.  The offense is very versatile in that it should allow you to adjust to your personnel.  I would much prefer the Colts work on being more balanced like the Norv Turner Cowboys as I feel that is what they have the personnel for currently.

[jet1968]

Play calling needs to change or Luck will end up in a hospital in an ICU .  They need to game plan short passes and more runs with ab occasional long throw

[Superman]

54 minutes ago, Dilger85 said:

I do not think it is outdated at all.  There are still many teams around the league that use the offense or variations off the offense.  The Coryell offense relies on timing and shifts/formations to create match up problems.  Joe Gibbs instituted the H-Back in the offense and established a heavy running game with and the same with Marty Schottenheimer; Cam Cameron and the Ravens did as well; Chudz did as well while in Carolina and Cleveland.  Then you have guys like Martz, Arians, and McCarthy that prefer to throw the ball around.  The offense is very versatile in that it should allow you to adjust to your personnel.  I would much prefer the Colts work on being more balanced like the Norv Turner Cowboys as I feel that is what they have the personnel for currently.

 

How many teams actually have a good offensive line right now?

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I'm absolutely not calling Chud stupid. He's forgotten more about running an offense than I'll ever know (cliched, but probably true). I'm also not calling Bruce Arians stupid, or Mike Martz, or Norv Turner, or Marty Schottenheimer, or Al Saunders, etc. They are all very well respected, and accomplished.

 

What I am saying is I find their offensive philosophy to be dated, and I find it to be overly reliant on great protection (which is part of the reason it's dated; it's hard to build a good OL anymore). We don't even have good protection.

 

I do think Pagano prefers this offense, since he hired Arians, and Chud, and Brian Schottenheimer, all Coryell guys. The one guy that he might not have been leading the charge on is Pep, and he's the guy that was the least suitable, objectively. So I'm not laying this all at Chud's feet. Chuck wants his offense, that's why he hired him. Realistically, I want a coordinator to run the offense he believes in, which is why I wouldn't hire a Coryell guy. But it's not up to me.

 

We'll see if he does a better job getting the offense going next year, establishing a rhythm, using the middle of the field, etc. But even if we have a great OL, philosophically, I'm not a great fan of the offense.

 

Sorry, Supe....

 

I know you're not calling Chud stupid.    I was addressing a broader audience, including some who think of Chud as just another guy.

 

Back in '12 you and I made the argument here that we liked Arians the head coach far more than we liked Arians the offensive coordinator.      And we used the same argument.    Why have an offense that requires a lot of deep drops and long passes if you don't have a line to protect the QB?      Fair point.

 

So, maybe it is a Pagano thing?      I hope to see somewhat different in 2017.     I'd like to see more of the Hasselback offense in 2017.    Get the ball out faster.   Spread it around.    Take pressure off the o-line.    I'd love to see more of that.

 

I just know I was happier with this offense than any other offense I've seen since back to 2012.

 

I also believe that had we won a few more games, and we came close to winning 10 or 11,  that this conversation that we're having would not be as popular or intense.      We would've moved on.....

 

I hope we can get to that point soon.....

 

[Dilger85]

24 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

How many teams actually have a good offensive line right now?

Define good (I am not trying to be obtuse either)  What measure are you using?  I actually think that the line that we currently have will become a very solid one.  I would consider GB, Dal, NO, Carolina, Oakland, and ATL to all have very good offensive lines. 

[Dilger85]

6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sorry, Supe....

 

I know you're not calling Chud stupid.    I was addressing a broader audience, including some who think of Chud as just another guy.

 

Back in '12 you and I made the argument here that we liked Arians the head coach far more than we liked Arians the offensive coordinator.      And we used the same argument.    Why have an offense that requires a lot of deep drops and long passes if you don't have a line to protect the QB?      Fair point.

 

So, maybe it is a Pagano thing?      I hope to see somewhat different in 2017.     I'd like to see more of the Hasselback offense in 2017.    Get the ball out faster.   Spread it around.    Take pressure off the o-line.    I'd love to see more of that.

 

I just know I was happier with this offense than any other offense I've seen since back to 2012.

 

I also believe that had we won a few more games, and we came close to winning 10 or 11,  that this conversation that we're having would not be as popular or intense.      We would've moved on.....

 

I hope we can get to that point soon.....

 

The overall lack of a consistent running game hurts as well but that could also be attributable to the OL.  I really believe that the OL will take a huge step forward this year.

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Dilger85 said:

Define good (I am not trying to be obtuse either)  What measure are you using?  I actually think that the line that we currently have will become a very solid one.  I would consider GB, Dal, NO, Carolina, Oakland, and ATL to all have very good offensive lines. 

 

By good, I mean lines that can consistently protect the QB. You named 6 of 32 teams. I agree, most teams don't have a good OL, specifically in pass pro. And I think part of that has to do with the limited practice time, the fact that players get rushed into service before their ready due to shorter contracts, and the multiple looks teams get from defensive fronts...

 

To me, any offense that necessarily requires really good pass pro in an environment where it's hard to achieve or sustain really good pass pro is dated.

[1959Colts]

 

Moving forward, Are we completely comfortable with the Offensive play calling?

 

No.

 

 

 

[Smoke317]

22 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Apology accepted.

 

I got pulled away from the discussion due to family concerns.

 

But now that I'm back I'd like to share more reasons why I like Chud so much.    Honestly,  I'm a bit embarrassed that I forgot it in the heat of the moment.     This is a great Chud story.

 

When Luck got hurt in 2015,  Chud basically re-invented the offense.   I know I called it the Hasselbeck offense for those 9 weeks.     A much shorter passing game.   more running at key times.    More unpredictable play cals,   not necessarily more risk,  but more outside the box thinking.     

 

With an aging and banged up back-up in Hasselbeck,  and then the 3rd string QB Whitehorse,  and then in the last week,  we used TWO QB's for the last game,  Josh Freeman and Ryan Lindley.    And in that game, we brilliantly asked Freeman to only take us from the 20 to the opposing 20.    And then we used Lindley.    We asked Freeman to learn most of, but not all the playbook, and then asked Lindley to learn the Red Zone offense.

 

All of that,  from Hasselbeck, to Whitehurts to the twin QB's in the same game was some of the best offensive coordinating I've ever seen,  and that spans roughly 50 years of watching the NFL.     And, in my viewpoint, was way outside the skill-set of Pep Hamilton.    No way would we have gone 6-3 with that QB scenario.    Not with Pep.   

 

So,  I'd like to see what our current offense can do under Chud in Year 2 of his offense.   Most everyone should improve in their 2nd year of this offense.    Everyone except Gore is young and improving,  we should have a terrific offense in '17.     I look forward to it.     And if it doesn't happen, then I'd expect the new HC to bring in his own OC in '18.

 

Sorry for the add-on,  but I wanted to put this on the record while we were on the topic.

 

Thanks for your patience, and the apology......

 

We move forward!            

But that's exactly what was/is so frustrating about Chud.  He showed the ability to run a quick hitting rhythmic passing attack with Hasselbeck and the other QB's last year. Even showed flashes of it in a few games this year with Luck. But he refuses to acknowledge the success of it and tailor our offense to be more consistently like that...

 

And I had high hopes for Chud when he was coming in.  I saw what he did with Newton. I heard about his usage of a zone blocking running scheme. I was excited. Then he gets here and our offense is just as hit or miss as it was under Pep. He puts players that aren't ready on the field (Ferguson).  He makes us too TY reliant rather than getting our other weapons involved earlier. Building that chemistry and confidence between Luck and his weapons. Scheme these guys into the game more...  I don't know if it's Chuck pushing his offensive philosophy on our coordinators or if it's Luck who's the problem. Regardless, I'm very disappointed and have been for years because I don't see Luck progressing to becoming the best QB in the game which I believe he has the potential to be. 

 

I've seen enough of Chuck and his OC's. Get Shanahan or McDaniels in here and watch our boy Luck take the league by storm starting next year.  Because it's clear that no matter who the OC is, they will trend towards mediocrity just like the HC they work under...  Whether it's Pep or Chud, they will always be mediocre because Chuck is mediocre...  

 

I truly believe a young and innovative, offensive mind that can teach Luck a more quick strike rhythmic offense is all this team needs to own the AFC South again. And that needs to start now.  I'm tired of waiting on "next year" because under Pagano and his staff it'll always be "next year"...

[Dilger85]

6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

By good, I mean lines that can consistently protect the QB. You named 6 of 32 teams. I agree, most teams don't have a good OL, specifically in pass pro. And I think part of that has to do with the limited practice time, the fact that players get rushed into service before their ready due to shorter contracts, and the multiple looks teams get from defensive fronts...

 

To me, any offense that necessarily requires really good pass pro in an environment where it's hard to achieve or sustain really good pass pro is dated.

See I view dated as ineffective. The Coryell offense is not dated as many in the NFL still use it and use it effectively. I do agree that screens, middle of the field routes, and the running game could and should be used more effectively. All of that can still be accomplished using the current offense. The scheme isn't the problem it is the philosophy behind it.