Have we really improved our team this weekend?

[braveheartcolt]

6 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Jibberish and blather.
 The not very good players have shown they do not quit with Pagano.
  So we let Irsay find a guy that is easier to get along with and has the vision and ability to find players that have the right size and mobility to play in today's game.

Of course it was jibberish etc. Just following the trend. Irsay picked Grigson, yes? Your final paragraph made me smirk. Of course, of course, he will learn from his mistakes, yada yada.

[GoColtsWin]

13 hours ago, Buck Showalter said:

Hughes was busting out in Indy, for whatever reason...

Still baffled as to why he was flaming out the way he did. 

 

Dude was a legit 1st rounder, so the level of talent was clearly there with him. Maybe he just had "maturity" issues? Maybe being brought into a situation of having D Free and Mathis ahead of him was too much? 

 

Just stinks to to lose good-great player like that. 

[Austin Leonard]

Not just on a buisness aspect and making the right choices etc,This move can be a huge moral boost and atmosphere change in the locker room, Chuck does need to fix the slow starts etc,but from most the reports as we have all seen,i think there was always a philosphy clash and trying to force certain things.I like to see what chuck can do with a little more talent on the defensive side,the players seem to love him and play hard for him,but had grigson meddling too much in every aspect.

[Superman]

The team isn't any better just yet. That's not really the point. The point is that Irsay wants a better GM, not that there's an addition by subtraction kind of thing going on. 

 

I'm fine with Grigson being gone. Let's see how his replacement does. Won't have a good read on the next guy until some results come in.

 

I will say, though, that Grigson was obviously not well liked around the complex. Not sure if that means there was a negative impact on the team -- sometimes some discomfort is good -- but it's possible that whatever dark clouds that were there have been cleared, which might have a positive impact. That's all just theoretical, of course.

[Malakai432]

3 hours ago, smittywerb said:

 

I don't think the offensive side of the ball is THAT bad.  Sure up the right side of the line and grab a #2 WR somehow and everything looks much better.

 

I think the defense is actually the problem.  Henry, vontae, and butler, thats it.  

 

Yeah I agree the D is a huge problem for the most part.  I'm not really wowed by their offense though.  If Dorsett can start to play, the OL improves and they could find a solid young stud at RB to play behind Gore, they should be in good shape offensively. 

[adamthyst]

It's a damn good start of something, that's for sure.

[dgambill]

44 minutes ago, Superman said:

The team isn't any better just yet. That's not really the point. The point is that Irsay wants a better GM, not that there's an addition by subtraction kind of thing going on. 

 

I'm fine with Grigson being gone. Let's see how his replacement does. Won't have a good read on the next guy until some results come in.

 

I will say, though, that Grigson was obviously not well liked around the complex. Not sure if that means there was a negative impact on the team -- sometimes some discomfort is good -- but it's possible that whatever dark clouds that were there have been cleared, which might have a positive impact. That's all just theoretical, of course.

Yes. If we stay in house does that mean things are going to change on the player acquisition side? I think the real question is how would/will Jimmy do things differently than Ryan. I mean did they work together and agree on the guys that we've brought in and on the process itself or is this a guy that has been hammering for different players but our GM wouldn't listen to his advisors....honestly I am not getting that...I'm getting the sense Grigson had some personality and character issues that were toxic even more so than his personnel decisions (as weak as those have been). If Jimmy has had a large part of our draft decisions over the year I'm not sure that is going to be enough of a change (just a cultural) to get this ship righted. Does anyone know how much say and how important his input has been on the process so far for FA and the draft...or has his responsibility mostly been just in the UDFA market where we have actually done well? This thing isn't going to get turned around in one offseason but I'd like to know if this is more of a continuation of the same or if there are big philosophical difference on players and how to build the team. Obviously the players and Chuck will appreciate things but if the talent isn't better that we bring in we may be right back here again in a year or two.

[CoachLite]

Have we really improved our team this weekend? No. It's still very possible to replace Grigson with someone much worse. That, and we still have Pagano. I don't have a warm, fuzzy feeling.

[Superman]

44 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Yes. If we stay in house does that mean things are going to change on the player acquisition side? I think the real question is how would/will Jimmy do things differently than Ryan. I mean did they work together and agree on the guys that we've brought in and on the process itself or is this a guy that has been hammering for different players but our GM wouldn't listen to his advisors....honestly I am not getting that...I'm getting the sense Grigson had some personality and character issues that were toxic even more so than his personnel decisions (as weak as those have been). If Jimmy has had a large part of our draft decisions over the year I'm not sure that is going to be enough of a change (just a cultural) to get this ship righted. Does anyone know how much say and how important his input has been on the process so far for FA and the draft...or has his responsibility mostly been just in the UDFA market where we have actually done well? This thing isn't going to get turned around in one offseason but I'd like to know if this is more of a continuation of the same or if there are big philosophical difference on players and how to build the team. Obviously the players and Chuck will appreciate things but if the talent isn't better that we bring in we may be right back here again in a year or two.

 

I think it's a mistake to assume that Jimmy Raye is the same kind of decision maker or talent evaluator as Grigson was. Just like you wouldn't assume that George Paton is a clone of Rick Spielman, or that Tom Telesco would be a clone of Bill Polian, I don't assume that Raye and Grigson always thought the same way or would operate the same way.

 

If anyone knows where Grigson and Raye differed, it's Colts people. Scouts, coaches, etc., including Irsay. No one is in better position to say what Raye's strengths and weaknesses are than the Colts. 

 

Hypothetically speaking, what if Raye was pounding the table for Xavier Rhodes? We don't know what Raye's angle is, but Colts insiders do. 

[RockThatBlue]

16 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

that's cherry picking..

He also picked 3 O-linemen who started this year..and 6 players who started this year.

 

Have we improved this weekend.?..Lets see who takes the GM job first

We might not have improved, but I'm not sure firing Grigson will make us worse.

[AKB]

I've never seen so many self conflicted opinions within a fan base.

 

No one is ever happy.

[UKColt13]

Accountability for a mass of mistakes. And hopefully a boost to the mood in the locker room. 

 

 

[aReggie7]

16 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think it's a mistake to assume that Jimmy Raye is the same kind of decision maker or talent evaluator as Grigson was. Just like you wouldn't assume that George Paton is a clone of Rick Spielman, or that Tom Telesco would be a clone of Bill Polian, I don't assume that Raye and Grigson always thought the same way or would operate the same way.

 

If anyone knows where Grigson and Raye differed, it's Colts people. Scouts, coaches, etc., including Irsay. No one is in better position to say what Raye's strengths and weaknesses are than the Colts. 

 

Hypothetically speaking, what if Raye was pounding the table for Xavier Rhodes? We don't know what Raye's angle is, but Colts insiders do. 

 

1

 

Exactly.

 

I remember when the Pacers fired Jim O'Brien and promoted Frank Vogel. People were happy to see O'Brien fired but I don't think ANYONE thought Vogel would be the coach past that season. Vogel was, to the surprise of many, different from O'Brien. I think it's reasonable to think that his view from working alongside O'Brien gave him a perspective to get a good feel for what the team needed in the Head Coach. If Jimmy is promoted to GM it might be that same type of situation.

[RockThatBlue]

4 hours ago, azcolt said:

The major impact so far is happier faces on certain players and that of one lucky head coach. That fact alone may not mean anything to the W-L record. These happy guys were awful in many big games playing for a guy they suppposedly love. What is different today that matters?

Its kind of a big deal when the GM is fired...

 

I'm not a big Pagano fan but I'm not sure how letting Grigson go can be seen as not a big deal.

[tfunky14]

Yes

[dgambill]

55 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think it's a mistake to assume that Jimmy Raye is the same kind of decision maker or talent evaluator as Grigson was. Just like you wouldn't assume that George Paton is a clone of Rick Spielman, or that Tom Telesco would be a clone of Bill Polian, I don't assume that Raye and Grigson always thought the same way or would operate the same way.

 

If anyone knows where Grigson and Raye differed, it's Colts people. Scouts, coaches, etc., including Irsay. No one is in better position to say what Raye's strengths and weaknesses are than the Colts. 

 

Hypothetically speaking, what if Raye was pounding the table for Xavier Rhodes? We don't know what Raye's angle is, but Colts insiders do. 

Yeah I hope so....or Grigson could have been making his decisions based on the advice and info scouts like Raye had been giving him. I know the Colts would know best but honestly Irsay also brought back a coach and GM that probably had enough rope to hang themselves last year for what I believe to be continuity sake. Then Ryan actually had what appears to be his best offseason yet last year and he gets fired. Not sure Irsays reasoning is really consistent right now. I almost get the feeling that he really liked Ryan and was overall happy with what we have but the outrage and the discontent inside the organization and what people on the outside were saying changed his mind. I guess I'm just concerned he will select Raye for continuity sake and because he just had to let Grigson go and not because he really wanted to and that he won't truely seek out the best alternative out there. Like he had to be convinced this team want on the right track but only so much that he fire Grigson but not clean house altogether. I hope Irsay has been inside the war rooms enough to know the truth and can judge Raye on his work because if he was a big part of Ryan's decision making that landed us the guys we got....ehhh not sure I think that will be the right move. Just wish I knew Rayes work...just not sure I trust ANYONE that has worked on assembling this roster.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, ar7 said:

 

Exactly.

 

I remember when the Pacers fired Jim O'Brien and promoted Frank Vogel. People were happy to see O'Brien fired but I don't think ANYONE thought Vogel would be the coach past that season. Vogel was, to the surprise of many, different from O'Brien. I think it's reasonable to think that his view from working alongside O'Brien gave him a perspective to get a good feel for what the team needed in the Head Coach. If Jimmy is promoted to GM it might be that same type of situation.

Or it could be that Ryan's scouting staff underperformed gave him bad evaluations and did a poor job of giving their GM the necessary information that kept him from making the best decisions...a staff that included Raye. I know Raye seems to have Chucks backing and the players but it's hard to say he did his job well enough to convince Ryan to make the right decisions in FA and the draft. I mean was it Raye that had guys like Werner and Smith and maybe Dorsett so high up on their draft boards or priorituezed guys like Jones and Landry and Cherilus that convinced Ryan these were who we should go after? Hard to know. He may have seen our failures and how to correct it or he could be part of the reason we got here in the first place. Only time will tell....seems like teams like the 49ers, titans, Chicago and others haven't been exactly sold that Raye has the right answers either.

[Superman]

1 minute ago, dgambill said:

Yeah I hope so....or Grigson could have been making his decisions based on the advice and info scouts like Raye had been giving him. I know the Colts would know best but honestly Irsay also brought back a coach and GM that probably had enough rope to hang themselves last year for what I believe to be continuity sake. Then Ryan actually had what appears to be his best offseason yet last year and he gets fired. Not sure Irsays reasoning is really consistent right now. I almost get the feeling that he really liked Ryan and was overall happy with what we have but the outrage and the discontent inside the organization and what people on the outside were saying changed his mind. I guess I'm just concerned he will select Raye for continuity sake and because he just had to let Grigson go and not because he really wanted to and that he won't truely seek out the best alternative out there. Like he had to be convinced this team want on the right track but only so much that he fire Grigson but not clean house altogether. I hope Irsay has been inside the war rooms enough to know the truth and can judge Raye on his work because if he was a big part of Ryan's decision making that landed us the guys we got....ehhh not sure I think that will be the right move. Just wish I knew Rayes work...just not sure I trust ANYONE that has worked on assembling this roster.

 

This is all premature, since Raye hasn't been given the job. We'll see what happens.

 

Overall, again, I think it's unfair to put Grigson's decisions on Raye. This is an area where, if Irsay and others speak well of Raye, then they probably know full well what kind of decision maker Raye would be as GM.

 

And I don't think Irsay would make any big picture decisions based on the discontent of people outside the organization. People can question him all they want, but he's never been someone to bow to external pressure. The way he handled the past three weeks is evidence of that. He can make room for Mathis and Wayne on the staff, if he really wants to extend an olive branch to some discontented fans.

 

As for not moving on from Pagano, I think it's obvious he wants someone with a track record of success, if he decides to move on. Pagano has some achievements under his belt now, and people are excited about assistants that have no head coaching experience. Irsay wants an upgrade, not a complete reboot. He wants someone who can step in ready to go to the next level right away. One of the first time candidates might prove to be that in the future, but I think Irsay has decided he wants a new front office first, then he'll decide what to do with the coach later. Pagano gets a(nother) reprieve, and if he doesn't show some serious improvement next season, I can't see a new GM attaching himself to Pagano going forward. 

 

The Niners job is the only one open at this point, and they appear to be fixed on Kyle Shanahan. Let's say Irsay is interested in McDaniels. He can still try to get him next year, if Pagano doesn't keep the job. And there will be another group of candidates that emerge over the next year; Shanahan wasn't in good standing with a lot of Falcons fans a year ago, so things change quickly. 

 

This, by the way, is similar to how Irsay made the change in 2012. He got rid of Polian, then let Grigson make the decision on Caldwell. With an established veteran QB and a core of guys who seem to like the coach, he could see reason to wait on Pagano. I think Pagano knows that the bar is set high -- an above average record followed by a weak playoff departure probably won't get it done for him. 

 

I'm eager to see what happens this year.

[IinD]

Replacing Grigs had to be done as Jim said. 

 

That whole 'it could get worse' going forward thinking is simply dumb.

 

I can get hit by a car walking my dog, doesn't mean I'm gonna stay inside forever to make sure I don't.

 

It was the correct move and had to be done regardless if we get better or not. Grigs botched this roster. Our defense got worse in 5 years. Can't overlook that. He didn't draft one impact D player over that time. A few solid guys sure, but no one that's a game changer. That's a fireable offense.

[colts_100nascar17fan]

No improvement because we still have a bad coach and terrible roster. Even  a top tier gm and coach can't turn this mess around right away,maybe 2 or 3 yrs from now.

[gacoop1]

Doesn't make sense, you still have the same field generals out there that's calling the shots....No way, no how this team can improve with the same coach and basically the same players....But the writing on  the wall is, make it in 2017 or bye, bye 2018.....

[colt18]

We absolutely improved our team. Grigson has hurt this team as much as he has helped it. It's time for someone else to build around Luck, because Grigson did the opposite. 

[AZColt11]

Short answer: yes.  Long answer: Rome wasn't built in a day.  The Colts have laid the first few bricks of the foundation with more to come.  If we're lucky, they will be ready to compete for Championships by the time Brady retires, and hopefully Belichik follows him out.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

1 hour ago, gacoop1 said:

Doesn't make sense, you still have the same field generals out there that's calling the shots....No way, no how this team can improve with the same coach and basically the same players....But the writing on  the wall is, make it in 2017 or bye, bye 2018.....

Same players? So are we skipping FA and the draft this year?

 

 

[MacDee1975]

On 1/21/2017 at 11:52 PM, braveheartcolt said:

So that would be a 'yes' then. If only it was that simple. Out of interest, what drafting style will our new GM have? Of course, no one knows yet, do they. 

 

Fair enough.  Chalk me up as a "yes".

[BOTT]

On 1/22/2017 at 0:52 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Great Post, that was my point on the other Thread. What has Pagano had to work with Defensively?

Then why did he fire Manusky?  Considering the table scraps he had to work with, he often did a swell job.  Not like Chuck fired him and brought in Bum's kid.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Then why did he fire Manusky?  Considering the table scraps he had to work with, he often did a swell job.  Not like Chuck fired him and brought in Bum's kid.

Yeah it would've been nice to get Wade, I will be interested too see what the new GM will bring to the table and who it will even be. Chuck is on a short leash anyway, I think you would agree with that. I would prefer Chuck be replaced but only if it looks like a better option.

[BOTT]

On 1/22/2017 at 5:30 PM, AustinnKaine said:

I've never seen so many self conflicted opinions within a fan base.

 

No one is ever happy.

If my bike has two bad tires i'm not thrilled with only replacing one.

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah it would've been nice to get Wade, I will be interested too see what the new GM will bring to the table and who it will even be. Chuck is on a short leash anyway, I think you would agree with that. I would prefer Chuck be replaced but only if it looks like a better option.

If he's not interviewing anyone how does he know if there isn't a better option?  There are no guarantees, but a guy like Patricia might blow Jimbo away during the interview process.

 

Feels like Irsay has been picking at a scab for two years now.   Tear it off already.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

4 minutes ago, BOTT said:

If my bike has two bad tires i'm not thrilled with only replacing one.

If you replace the back tire though.. it is easier to peddle.. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

If he's not interviewing anyone how does he know if there isn't a better option?  There are no guarantees, but a guy like Patricia might blow Jimbo away during the interview process.

 

Feels like Irsay has been picking at a scab for two years now.   Tear it off already.

I would love Patricia as HC, I could go for that. I really want Harbaugh but I know that isn't realistic.

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, Majin Vegeta said:

If you replace the back tire though.. it is easier to peddle.. 

I was thinking about the kind of bike with a motor lol

[Andrew Luck fan club]

4 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I was thinking about the kind of bike with a motor lol

[southwest1]

On January 21, 2017 at 11:04 PM, braveheartcolt said:

So, most of you can put away your pitchforks and torches for a short period, and celebrate. But what have we really achieved? Perhaps too early to understand the long term strategy, but we could be in a bigger mess than before, and that is saying something. Our 'new guy' better have some off season, that is for sure. Or maybe Irsay has still to play his Trump card. If we were going to clean house, we should have cleaned it out entirely, now we are left with a lingering coach with his head in a noose. Not the best motivational situation at all. Good luck, let the insults begin......

I like the move in cutting ties with Grigson. I'm not dancing on Ryan's NFL grave or anything like that. I just am relieved that Jimmy finally did what needed to be done. Does this mean INDY is better off? Absolutely. Ryan proved he had difficulty protecting Luck & then he blamed Luck's large salary on the difficulty on giving Chewbacca a stout defense. 

 

I will admit that uncertainty now exists at the GM position right now. However, given the friction inside LOS over interactions with Ryan from a player perspective & that he always liked to deflect responsibility when the injuries mounted, this change was mandatory in my mind. 

 

I have no silver bullet solutions. I just know that 5 yrs was long enough. People including GM candidates will be salivating to work with Luck. I'm not worried at all my friend. 

[southwest1]

1 hour ago, BOTT said:

If my bike has two bad tires i'm not thrilled with only replacing one.

Look, I read ya BOTT. It does feel like Pagano is overwhelmed & out coached a lot against elite AFC teams: Seattle, NE, Pittsburgh & yes, his clapping does irritate me sometimes. I won't lie about that. 

 

I suspect Chuck has 1 more yr & that's it. No, SW1 is not rooting for him to fail. I just like him enough to let it play out. In all honesty, Pags isn't the answer longterm here Championship wise. However, given the tension that Grigson threw his way since 2012, I'm curious to see what Chuck can do with an experienced GM working with him. 

[AKB]

1 hour ago, BOTT said:

If my bike has two bad tires i'm not thrilled with only replacing one.

If you have a flat tire on your car, do you keep driving with the 3 good ones before replacing the fourth?

 

No- because the damage from the bad 4th resonates throughout the entire vehicle (organization)

 

A football organization has more than "two tires". It's a complex system, and from the sounds of it (player reports) the majority of the issues were one tire. 

 

I appreciate the analogy, it just doesn't apply. 

 

Edit: And on a side note, rather or not those tires are flat is clearly subjective. One could argue that one may have been over-inflated (Grigson's ego), you could suggest that one tire simply was not the right size for the bike as well. 

 

This half empty view is too melancholy for my liking. 

[BOTT]

3 hours ago, AustinnKaine said:

If you have a flat tire on your car, do you keep driving with the 3 good ones before replacing the fourth?

 

No- because the damage from the bad 4th resonates throughout the entire vehicle (organization)

 

A football organization has more than "two tires". It's a complex system, and from the sounds of it (player reports) the majority of the issues were one tire. 

 

I appreciate the analogy, it just doesn't apply. 

 

Edit: And on a side note, rather or not those tires are flat is clearly subjective. One could argue that one may have been over-inflated (Grigson's ego), you could suggest that one tire simply was not the right size for the bike as well. 

 

This half empty view is too melancholy for my liking. 

It does apply, you are just dancing around it. 

[gacoop1]

If you bring in a new HC, expect the assistants to be let go as well.  They are a clone to Pagano and it's going to be a massive overhaul if that happens.  The time is to improve now with a new set of values, expectations and vision to see a franchise succeed or endure another year of mediocrity and fall  victim to another missed opportunity to go in a positive direction.  It would be a total set back once again...To you Colt fans, are you ?l willing to accept this type of situation? Personally, I would cut ties with Pagano and bring in a fresh set of eyes...

[braveheartcolt]

11 minutes ago, gacoop1 said:

If you bring in a new HC, expect the assistants to be let go as well.  They are a clone to Pagano and it's going to be a massive overhaul if that happens.  The time is to improve now with a new set of values, expectations and vision to see a franchise succeed or endure another year of mediocrity and fall  victim to another missed opportunity to go in a positive direction.  It would be a total set back once again...To you Colt fans, are you ?l willing to accept this type of situation? Personally, I would cut ties with Pagano and bring in a fresh set of eyes...

What does 'accepting this type of situation' really mean? You can be happy about it or not, and the only other real option is to go and support another team / stop watching football all together. Given the nature of the NFL, sometimes we just got to suck it up. We are not entitled to glory every year (cue New England......but even their bubble will burst eventually).. 

[Valpo2004]

On 1/22/2017 at 0:07 PM, smittywerb said:

 

I don't think the offensive side of the ball is THAT bad.  Sure up the right side of the line and grab a #2 WR somehow and everything looks much better.

 

I think the defense is actually the problem.  Henry, vontae, and butler, thats it.  

 

The stats bear this out too.  Colts where if I remember right a top 10 offense last year both in scoring and in yardage.

 

It's defense where they bottom out.  

 

Really the only need on offense is a RB for the future.  The OL we got from the last draft flashed potential and since they where rookies it's highly possible that they could be vastly improved next year and at the very least be an average OL.

 

Moncrief and Dorsett should probably get 1 more year to see what they can do as well as Rodgers.