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GM Candidates, including Jimmy Raye (merge)


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7 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I don't believe so. Pagano should have no say in who the GM is. He wants someone with familiarity around him. At worst, he wants a buddy for a friendly working enviornment because he didn't have it with Grigson, at worst, he looking out for himself, and wants someone that won't fire him. Al the guys on Grigson's list are qualified, Pagano just wants the one he's familiar with.

I believe when Jim brought them both back last year Chuck said something to the effect of " I told Jim I wanted to work with Ryan ".  Maybe someone can find the quote.  So it sounds like Chuck gave his opinion on the position for what it's worth. 

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2 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I hate to say it, but I will never believe anything Pagano says until it happens. He never backs up what he says. He says he'll correct mistakes, never happens. He gives interviews, most of the time it's just rubbish. He has no credibility. At a time where he's desperate to keep his job, he'll lie and deceive everyone to save face. Just the fact that he gives the same old press conference every time we lose a game, then next game we start slow again and struggle before making a comeback in the 2nd half and possibly winning gives me the impression that he's satisfied with how he coaches, and he wants someone like Raye that's a friend and won't put pressure on him to succeed.

 

Media may be lying, but I believe them over someone who has more reason to lie in Pagano. 

Just say you don't like Pagano.  This has nothing to do with Jimmy Raye.  Jimmy Raye has a job to do and he's got a set of eyes looking over his own shoulder.   There's only so much nonsense that he could allow to go on before he himself would lose his own job.  Raye has a family to feed too and his job has to be done very well.      At the end of the day you want Pagano fired and that's cool, but this ain't got much at all to do with Jimmy Raye.  It couldn't because you've already said you don't know much about the guy.

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10 hours ago, ar7 said:

I haven't seen this posted yet. Irsay requested to interview Eliot Wolf.

 

 

Eliot Wolf just got a raise in pay to back out of the 49'ers hunt. He very well may get another one to back out of ours -OR- Packers say "Too rich for our blood" and let him go. I wonder if this was a strategic move on our part given the circumstances. Either way, the Packers lose...kinda.

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1 minute ago, krunk said:

Just say you don't like Pagano.  This has nothing to do with Jimmy Raye.  Jimmy Raye has a job to do and he's got a set of eyes looking over his own shoulder.   There's only so much nonsense that he could allow to go on before he himself would lose his own job.  Raye has a family to feed too and his job has to be done very well.      At the end of the day you want Pagano fired and that's cool, but this ain't got much at all to do with Jimmy Raye.  It couldn't because you've already said you don't know much about the guy.

You are pretty much correct, I don't like Pagano. Raye I'm indifferent at. I don't have an opinion of him because I know nothing about him. The only reason I'm so against him being GM is his relationship with Pagano, and I don't believe Pagano will be motivated to coach as well as he would if a different GM came and was down his throat every game. I don't want another wasted year, and if Raye shows up, we'll probably get that from Pagano. I don't dislike Raye. He probably wouldn't be the weak link, Pagano would. Even if Raye is a solid upgrade at GM, it would make Pagano a downgrade as Coach even from the last two years. I don't want Raye by association with Pagano, that's all. he could be great.

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4 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

You are pretty much correct, I don't like Pagano. Raye I'm indifferent at. I don't have an opinion of him because I know nothing about him. The only reason I'm so against him being GM is his relationship with Pagano, and I don't believe Pagano will be motivated to coach as well as he would if a different GM came and was down his throat every game. I don't want another wasted year, and if Raye shows up, we'll probably get that from Pagano. I don't dislike Raye. He probably wouldn't be the weak link, Pagano would. Even if Raye is a solid upgrade at GM, it would make Pagano a downgrade as Coach even from the last two years. I don't want Raye by association with Pagano, that's all. he could be great.

Hasn't it been said that Raye was one of the only guys to consistently take a stand against Grigson? I don't think there's a lot of reason to think that Raye isn't going to hold Pagano to high standards, especially given that he will have a lot of prove as a new GM here.

 

A lot of your statements are working under the assumption that Pagano is a sly person, which just could not be farther from how he acts most of the time. It's more likely that he endorsed Raye because Pagano thinks he will be a good GM. 

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16 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

You are pretty much correct, I don't like Pagano. Raye I'm indifferent at. I don't have an opinion of him because I know nothing about him. The only reason I'm so against him being GM is his relationship with Pagano, and I don't believe Pagano will be motivated to coach as well as he would if a different GM came and was down his throat every game. I don't want another wasted year, and if Raye shows up, we'll probably get that from Pagano. I don't dislike Raye. He probably wouldn't be the weak link, Pagano would. Even if Raye is a solid upgrade at GM, it would make Pagano a downgrade as Coach even from the last two years. I don't want Raye by association with Pagano, that's all. he could be great.

It still doesn't add up.  If Pagano is bad then he'll be bad with anybody so just say you want the guy gone.   I haven't the foggiest clue why you think Raye is his buddy and he's going to let Pagano get lax.  I have some things on my mind as to your reason but I'm leaving that alone.  If Chuck is a bad coach then how is XYZ Gm going to change that?  You know the bottom line is there is a strong likelihood if we bring in another GM from another organization they'll probably fire Pagano and that's what you're really wanting.  Again that's cool, but don't veil it behind the buddy theory because we really don't even know if Raye himself may be leaning in another direction in his own mind. Chuck has plenty on film to give even Raye a reason to do that.

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9 minutes ago, krunk said:

It still doesn't add up.  If Pagano is bad then he'll be bad with anybody so just say you want the guy gone.   I haven't the foggiest clue why you think Raye is his buddy and he's going to let Pagano get lax.  I have some things on my mind as to your reason but I'm leaving that alone.  If Chuck is a bad coach then how is XYZ Gm going to change that?  You know the bottom line is there is a strong likelihood if we bring in another GM from another organization they'll probably fire Pagano and that's what you're really wanting.  Again that's cool, but don't veil it behind the buddy theory because we really don't even know if Raye himself may be leaning in another direction in his own mind. Chuck has plenty on film to give even Raye a reason to do that.

In his defense it has been reported for a while now that Raye and Pagano's coaching staff get along well and both respect each other very much. I think the only thing that adds up is that Raye WILL most likely be the GM and Irsay knows Pagano is his choice as coach. 

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No matter who the GM is, the only thing that can buy Chuck more time is for is behind to Win.  Not only win but make a deep playoff run or more.  Nothing more, Nothing less.   Irsay said it's about winning at the end of the day.

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Basically IMO, I think even though Pagano is a poor coach, I think is he very intelligent, and knows how to try to manipulate the situation to his advantage. He knows he's on the hot seat, and he knows he probably won't last another year, but he also knows a random GM could fire him when or if he gets hired. He's probably banking on the fact that his experience working with Raye, and having to deal with Grigson, would make Raye keep him for a year, and Pagano may be able to work out a miracle. He knows something we don't. I may be inaccurate on what it is, but Pagano has a plan. It's always better to work with someone from the organization and someone that you are familiar with when on the hot seat, than someone who has no bias towards you and may not give you a chance to fix your mistakes.

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7 minutes ago, Colts1324 said:

In his defense it has been reported for a while now that Raye and Pagano's coaching staff get along well and both respect each other very much. I think the only thing that adds up is that Raye WILL most likely be the GM and Irsay knows Pagano is his choice as coach. 

That's fine as long as it results in wins and improvements.  My position is getting along does not keep you from "Do Your Job".   Not if you are true professionals. I just believe being on the same page is always a plus.  I don't see great benefit being aligned with a GM who you find conflict on every single issue so much to the point that Psychologist need to be brought in.  Chucks hanging on to this thing by his finger nails right now.  He's got no time to be lax as he knows it's Jim Irsay he has to please more than anybody else.  How do you please Jim Irsay?  Win games in the fashion that we expect at the Horse Shoe.   Nothing more nothing less.   If he can't do that then I want him gone too.  I've already slated 2017 as my last year supporting Chuck if I don't get what I want.

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2 minutes ago, krunk said:

That's fine as long as it results in wins and improvements.  My position is getting along does not keep you from "Do Your Job".   Not if you are true professionals. I just believe being on the same page is always a plus.

Being on the same page is always a plus, but it's irrelevant if you are bad at your job. When I'm in a comfort zone, I tend to get lazy and unmotivated, and sometimes, I'll do stupid stuff. The best times I win competitions or money is when I'm under pressure. It keeps me focused, alert, and aware of my surroundings. I consider every possibility and don't leave anything out. I want Pagano constantly looking over his shoulder, coaching every game like it could be his last. It sounds cruel, but it may be the only way to motivate him. He's already surrounded himself with a coaching staff of his buddies and it hasn't worked out, we don't need someone at the GM position that goes easy on him. Someone needs to make him take responsibility for his mistakes and learn from them. 

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11 minutes ago, Colts1324 said:

In his defense it has been reported for a while now that Raye and Pagano's coaching staff get along well and both respect each other very much. I think the only thing that adds up is that Raye WILL most likely be the GM and Irsay knows Pagano is his choice as coach. 

 

I think that could be a mistake just staying in house because Pagano endorses him. This GM job is highly sought after from what I've heard so Irsay should be able to attract some of the best candidates out there. This has to be a decision that will last him 10 years so he needs the best GM candidate possible. 

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I hope Irsay takes his time and interviews as many candidates as possible. And then maybe have some conversations with outside people like maybe Polian and whittle down the candidates from there. Hasty decisions are usually the wrong decisions. I dont believe that Jimmy Raye is the answer at all. 

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9 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Being on the same page is always a plus, but it's irrelevant if you are bad at your job. When I'm in a comfort zone, I tend to get lazy and unmotivated, and sometimes, I'll do stupid stuff. The best times I win competitions or money is when I'm under pressure. It keeps me focused, alert, and aware of my surroundings. I consider every possibility and don't leave anything out. I want Pagano constantly looking over his shoulder, coaching every game like it could be his last. It sounds cruel, but it may be the only way to motivate him. He's already surrounded himself with a coaching staff of his buddies and it hasn't worked out, we don't need someone at the GM position that goes easy on him. Someone needs to make him take responsibility for his mistakes and learn from them. 

I guess the fact that he's hanging on to this job by the skin of his teeth isn't motivation enough?   Only guy on this coaching staff that he has any significant history with is Chud and Monachino.  Chud calls a bad game plan here and there but overall the offense was better.  Got a 1,000 yards out of a 34 year old RB and I believe a top 15 offense even though the line did not block.   Monachino has bad parts all over his defense so what do you expect?  There's more to it than the buddy theory.  I mean there's multiple personnel problems on this team if you haven't forgotten. There are scheme based improvements I believe that need to be made.  I'll agree with that and I'm sure Irsay addressed these things with them in the offseason meetings. 2017 is the last year for this staff and everybody knows it.  There's plenty to be motivated about for sure.

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3 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

 

I think that could be a mistake just staying in house because Pagano endorses him. This GM job is highly sought after from what I've heard so Irsay should be able to attract some of the best candidates out there. This has to be a decision that will last him 10 years so he needs the best GM candidate possible. 

I'm sure Irsay has more on his mind than a Pagano endorsement.

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1 minute ago, krunk said:

I guess the fact that he's hanging on to this job by the skin of his teeth isn't motivation enough?   Only guy on this coaching staff that he has any significant history with is Chud and Monachino.  Chud calls a bad game plan here and there but overall the offense was better.  Monachino has bad parts all over his defense so what do you expect.  There's more to it than the buddy theory.

At this point, I don't think Chuck cares if he gets fired or not. It's not because he doesn't care, but he knows he's not good enough and it's just inevitable that it'll happen. Offense improved by stats, but it's because Luck played 15 games this year, and lots of garbage time stats. The slow starts were still there, and the opposing defenses let us back in the games after gaining a big lead. Our offense with Pagano is basically what RGIII was in 2013 and 2014 with the redskins. Except we have Luck, so it's even more unacceptable. He's a defensive guru, and I believe this was the worst defense in history, after 2 heavy defensive drafts. He's not motivated, no. It may be because Irsay had never really considered firing him til now and he knew it. We don't know.

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26 minutes ago, krunk said:

That's fine as long as it results in wins and improvements.  My position is getting along does not keep you from "Do Your Job".   Not if you are true professionals. I just believe being on the same page is always a plus.  I don't see great benefit being aligned with a GM who you find conflict on every single issue so much to the point that Psychologist need to be brought in.  Chucks hanging on to this thing by his finger nails right now.  He's got no time to be lax as he knows it's Jim Irsay he has to please more than anybody else.  How do you please Jim Irsay?  Win games in the fashion that we expect at the Horse Shoe.   Nothing more nothing less.   If he can't do that then I want him gone too.  I've already slated 2017 as my last year supporting Chuck if I don't get what I want.

I'm in agreement with you. I'm just saying that's the way it looks right now. 

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8 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

At this point, I don't think Chuck cares if he gets fired or not. It's not because he doesn't care, but he knows he's not good enough and it's just inevitable that it'll happen. Offense improved by stats, but it's because Luck played 15 games this year, and lots of garbage time stats. The slow starts were still there, and the opposing defenses let us back in the games after gaining a big lead. Our offense with Pagano is basically what RGIII was in 2013 and 2014 with the redskins. Except we have Luck, so it's even more unacceptable. He's a defensive guru, and I believe this was the worst defense in history, after 2 heavy defensive drafts. He's not motivated, no. It may be because Irsay had never really considered firing him til now and he knew it. We don't know.

How were they garbage time stats if we were in just about every single one of our games?  You speak as if we were getting smoked and Luck put up garbage yards in the 4th quarter to pad the stats?  Most of our games we actually started out ahead if you look at the games closely.  This year I think we actually had more of a problem maintaining leads more than anything else.  Product of the weak defense for the most part to me.  Also some questionable in game adjustments at times I will admit.

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1 minute ago, krunk said:

How were they garbage time stats if we were in just about every single one of our games?  You speak as if we were getting smoked and Luck put up garbage yards in the 4th quarter to pad the stats?  Most of our games we actually started out ahead if you look at the games closely.  This year I think we actually had more of a problem maintaining leads more than anything else.  Product of the weak defense for the most part to me.

You may be right, but I didn't get to watch every game on TV. The majority of games I saw and remember, Luck was playing from behind and we caught up and made it close at the end. Though there were some games where Luck threw 2 tds in the 1st half then threw about 50 yds, no tds, and an INT in the 2nd. Even if it is true, I think there were 2 games we were consistent throughout the game all year, and that was against the Vikings and the Jets. The Jags were a struggle for us.

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1 hour ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I don't believe so. Pagano should have no say in who the GM is.

 

And he won't

 

Quote

He wants someone with familiarity around him. At worst, he wants a buddy for a friendly working environment because he didn't have it with Grigson, at worst, he looking out for himself, and wants someone that won't fire him. Al the guys on Grigson's list are qualified, Pagano just wants the one he's familiar with.

 

or maybe there is no ulterior motive and Pagano is simply endorsing the guy because they're both currently employed by the same team.  Occam's razor and all.

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3 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

And he won't

 

 

or maybe there is no ulterior motive and Pagano is simply endorsing the guy because they're both currenlty employed by the same team.  Occam's razor and all.

I don't think you're giving Pagano enough credit, he's smarter than that.

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4 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

You may be right, but I didn't get to watch every game on TV. The majority of games I saw and remember, Luck was playing from behind and we caught up and made it close at the end. Though there were some games where Luck threw 2 tds in the 1st half then threw about 50 yds, no tds, and an INT in the 2nd. Even if it is true, I think there were 2 games we were consistent throughout the game all year, and that was against the Vikings and the Jets. The Jags were a struggle for us.

Consistency was an issue but us starting with a lead was done more often this year than the previous year. I don't know why we would play lights out one game and then look like something else the next game.  Definitely needs to be addressed.

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4 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I know for a fact when you work with friends in a friendly work enviornment, you give less than your full effort, because the expectations are lower for you and you get special treatment.

 

LOL..no you don't.  Why?  Because not every single person on the planet is going to react exactly the same in any specific situation.  What you say is very well true for some people, but on the other hand there are also people out there who would work harder in that type of situation because they don't want to let down the friend that gave them the opportunity. 

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8 minutes ago, krunk said:

Consistency was an issue but us starting with a lead was done more often this year than the previous year. I don't know why we would play lights out one game and then look like something else the next game.  Definitely needs to be addressed.


I think it's also fair to add that in some of the games they started off well they collapsed at some point in the 2nd half. Consistency even just half to half, or I guess in game adjustments, also needs work.

 

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2 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

LOL..no you don't.  Why?  Because not every single person on the planet is going to react exactly the same in any specific situation.  What you say is very well true for some people, but on the other hand there are also people out there who would work harder in that type of situation because they don't want to let down the friend that gave them the opportunity. 

Well, it doesn't seem like Pagano is one of them.

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5 minutes ago, tucky89 said:

OT a bit here. Why was a 6 time SB, hof, class act like Polian fired in 2011? I never truly understood that. Not asking sarcastically by any means. 

 

 

My understanding is that Irsay wanted to fire Chris Polian. He was the GM and Bill was President of Football Operations or something along those lines. Bill told Irsay that if he was going to fire Chris then he had to fire him too so that is what Irsay did.

 

My thinking is that Irsay knew Bill was likely close to retiring in the near future and he didn't want Chris. With them cutting Peyton and set to draft Luck (I imagine Irsay knew this is what he was going to do or had a good indication) it was a good time to start over.

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I know Eric DeCosta and Nick Caserio have turned down offers before, but just out of curiousity why would they again turn down this offer if Irsay reached out to them?

 

This would be a great situation for a GM coming in considering they would already have their franchise QB for many years. With New England, Tom Brady only has so many years left, and with Baltimore, Flacco isn't a great QB by any means and it's not like that team is looking great for the future. Plus who knows how long Newsome remains as GM in Baltimore.

 

Just my two cents.

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8 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

I know Eric DeCosta and Nick Caserio have turned down offers before, but just out of curiousity why would they again turn down this offer if Irsay reached out to them?

 

This would be a great situation for a GM coming in considering they would already have their franchise QB for many years. With New England, Tom Brady only has so many years left, and with Baltimore, Flacco isn't a great QB by any means and it's not like that team is looking great for the future. Plus who knows how long Newsome remains as GM in Baltimore.

 

Just my two cents.

Yeah, NE will only be a threat for 2-3 years, Pitt is solid, but Big Ben is starting to get up there in age, even though Bell and Brown are threats. Raiders and Chiefs are problems, but Denver, Cincy, and the Ravens have fallen down to earth. Should be a much more manageable conference in the upcoming years.

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58 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Being on the same page is always a plus, but it's irrelevant if you are bad at your job. When I'm in a comfort zone, I tend to get lazy and unmotivated, and sometimes, I'll do stupid stuff. The best times I win competitions or money is when I'm under pressure. It keeps me focused, alert, and aware of my surroundings. I consider every possibility and don't leave anything out.

 

that's great and all, but that's you.  Not everyone reacts to the same situations in the same manner.

 

Quote

He's already surrounded himself with a coaching staff of his buddies and it hasn't worked out,

 

lord...have....mercy.  they've had 1 injury riddled year to install their new schemes, get players comfortable with the playbook and new terminology and get some chemistry going in the different position groups. No one could possibly determine whether or not a coaching staff is going to work out or not in that short amount of time under those circumstances.  Your hatred of Pagano is really clouding your judgement.

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43 minutes ago, tucky89 said:

OT a bit here. Why was a 6 time SB, hof, class act like Polian fired in 2011? I never truly understood that. Not asking sarcastically by any means. 

The following sums it up 100%

35 minutes ago, ar7 said:

 

My understanding is that Irsay wanted to fire Chris Polian. He was the GM and Bill was President of Football Operations or something along those lines. Bill told Irsay that if he was going to fire Chris then he had to fire him too so that is what Irsay did.

 

My thinking is that Irsay knew Bill was likely close to retiring in the near future and he didn't want Chris. With them cutting Peyton and set to draft Luck (I imagine Irsay knew this is what he was going to do or had a good indication) it was a good time to start over.

 

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First let me say I want Pagano gone as much as anyone else.

 

But I was wondering, been seeing former players coming out saying that Grigson would force starters on Pagano, meaning the best player didn't always start.  Now we heard this last year and it was admitantly denied but now that the players are coming out in droves saying this, im betting its true.  It could very well be the reason we played Feurgson so much over Torbin in the first 6 games, or the reason certain others have been stuck with over the years when clearly the back ups were better. 

 

So if that and the other meddling stuff is true, I can see how it would affect the coaching of the team.

 

Only way we'll learn this for sure is IF Pagano stays and succeeds next year.

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1 minute ago, csmopar said:

First let me say I want Pagano gone as much as anyone else.

 

But I was wondering, been seeing former players coming out saying that Grigson would force starters on Pagano, meaning the best player didn't always start.  Now we heard this last year and it was admitantly denied but now that the players are coming out in droves saying this, im betting its true.  It could very well be the reason we played Feurgson so much over Torbin in the first 6 games, or the reason certain others have been stuck with over the years when clearly the back ups were better. 

 

So if that and the other meddling stuff is true, I can see how it would affect the coaching of the team.

 

Only way we'll learn this for sure is IF Pagano stays and succeeds next year.

Hmmm interesting! I didn't know this! Well, it should make things interesting if that's the case. As much as I don't like Pagano, he has the right to choose his starters and who he wants to play. We'll see if it makes a difference next year.

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4 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Hmmm interesting! I didn't know this! Well, it should make things interesting if that's the case. As much as I don't like Pagano, he has the right to choose his starters and who he wants to play. We'll see if it makes a difference next year.

Yep, more than one player on twitter said it, including......Reggie and Winston Guy.  

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50 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Well, it doesn't seem like Pagano is one of them.

 

when has Pagano worked for one of his buddies?  It sure hasn't been since he came to Indy.

 

56 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I don't think you're giving Pagano enough credit, he's smarter than that.

 

I agree pagano is a smart guy, but I think your hatred of him is causing you to think he's also some grand manipulator and there's simply nothing to support that.  Pagano always had nothing but the nicest things to say about Grigson and with more and more news coming out, it doesn't appear that the 2 of them were ever buddy/buddy.  One thing we do know is that Pagano is fluent in coach speak and imo that's all his endorsement was.  For all we know, deep down Pagano could hate the idea of Raye picking his players, but to the media Pagano's never going to do anything other than say positive things about him.

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Just now, csmopar said:

Yep, more than one player on twitter said it, including......Reggie and Winston Guy.  

Yeah, I thought Pagano was making some of those poor decisions. He needs to coach better, but I'll give him a little leeway in this case. If Grigson was this cancerous to the team, then Raye may be a better replacement than I thought, even if he's friends with Pagano. Looks like Irsay did his homework here.

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1 minute ago, Jason_S said:

 

when has Pagano worked for one of his buddies?  It sure hasn't been since he came to Indy.

 

 

I agree pagano is a smart guy, but I think your hatred of him is causing you to think he's also some grand manipulator and there's simply nothing to support that.  Pagano always had nothing but the nicest things to say about Grigson and with more and more news coming out, it doesn't appear that the 2 of them were ever buddy/buddy.  One thing we do know is that Pagano is fluent in coach speak and imo that's all his endorsement was.  For all we know, deep down Pagano could hate the idea of Raye picking his players, but to the media Pagano's never going to do anything other than say positive things about him.

I don't think Pagano hates Raye picking his players. He would never say negative things about him regardless, but I don't think he would say positive things either. Of course, he did about Grigson too, and this is part of the reason I believe he is a manipulator, he is a constant liar. I wish either Grigson or Pagano would of got fired last year and we could of been on the right track to success. Instead, things were kept hush-hush and they went to a psychologist of all things and it wasted a year.

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6 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Yeah, I thought Pagano was making some of those poor decisions. He needs to coach better, but I'll give him a little leeway in this case. If Grigson was this cancerous to the team, then Raye may be a better replacement than I thought, even if he's friends with Pagano. Looks like Irsay did his homework here.

 

Not sure the definition of cancerous here, but if it covers power struggle(s), then I think Irsay beleived it as he now says about Pagano-

 

“I really believe he will be the best coach he has ever been going into this year,” Irsay said Saturday.

“I really do.  He is fired up for 2017,”  Irsay said.

 

But make no mistake, Chuck is sitting on the hottest of hot seats this upcoming season.

 

http://www.news-sentinel.com/sports/Colts--Chuck-Pagano-already-on-the-hot-seat-for-2017

 

 

 

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