Tony Kornheiser-PTI

[Superman]

15 hours ago, IndyTrav said:

 

Does it? I don't know that I agree, but I can see how people will jump to those conclusions....pretty sure SF went to a SB and 2 other NFC conf games, then finished 8-8 then fell off a cliff. No one would say they were spiraling after the 8-8 year and yet here they are.... 49ers had some bad breaks in Bowman, Aldon, and Willis, but those are things that happen, and I think if something were to happen with Luck (and IMO the odds are going in that direction) to think this team wouldn't be in the basement just like SF is dishonest. We are one piece of bad luck away from being in the same position. 

 

You mean after they blew out their very successful head coach because he and the GM didn't get along? You also mentioned the significant personnel losses they suffered, but only some of them. Chris Borland and Justin Smith also retired, they got rid of Crabtree, their OL has changed significantly...

 

If a bunch of bad things happen to the Colts, yes, they could be in the same situation as the Niners. That's true of most (all?) teams, though. They happened to survive Luck's absence last year, and I don't think you can count on that in general. No question the team isn't where it was expected to be 2-3 years ago, but they are not spiraling.

[Superman]

6 hours ago, deedub75 said:

 

2015 was definitely not a fluke. It was just delayed a couple of seasons. I saw nothing Grigson did prior to that season that I thought was improving the team. The team was old and Grigson added a bunch of old players. I could not believe that people were picking them to get to get to the Super Bowl. This has been an 8-8 team for 5 seasons that just happened to overachieve in the first 3 due to Luck's heroics. 

 

 

This team won 11 games three years in a row, and advanced in the playoffs each year. It's crazy talk to call them an 8-8 team. They earned their keep, and held their own. Not good enough to win a SB, and they definitely overachieved, but not an average team either. You're being overly critical.

[RockThatBlue]

People still watch PTI?

[IndyTrav]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

You mean after they blew out their very successful head coach because he and the GM didn't get along? You also mentioned the significant personnel losses they suffered, but only some of them. Chris Borland and Justin Smith also retired, they got rid of Crabtree, their OL has changed significantly...

 

If a bunch of bad things happen to the Colts, yes, they could be in the same situation as the Niners. That's true of most (all?) teams, though. They happened to survive Luck's absence last year, and I don't think you can count on that in general. No question the team isn't where it was expected to be 2-3 years ago, but they are not spiraling.

 

This is kind of the point I'm making. Those bad things are currently happening to the Colts. In 3 years time they went from good to bad, and we are teetering on doing the same. In 3 years they lost/hurt/suspended some of there best def players (Mathis/Vonte/Anderson/Freeman come to mind on our end), they are/were saddled by bad coaching, as we currently are, they lost a good WR, we lost Wayne, there TE fell off a cliff, so did ours, they've busted on several drafts, as have we, there young upcoming qb took a lot of hits, got hurt, lost his confidence. Ours has had 2/3 of that.....honestly if the Colts played last year or this year in the NFC west would our record be a whole lot better than SFs? Maybe what, 4-5 games better over 2years.

 

Bad football teams don't happen over night. But it does happen quickly. And the Colts appear to be at a cross roads of if they are gonna be SF bad, SD bad, or a good team. 

[chrisfarley]

23 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

Same topic different thread 

same coach, different GM       

different coach, same GM     

different coach, different GM  

[VocableLoki]

17 minutes ago, IndyTrav said:

 

This is kind of the point I'm making. Those bad things are currently happening to the Colts. In 3 years time they went from good to bad, and we are teetering on doing the same. In 3 years they lost/hurt/suspended some of there best def players (Mathis/Vonte/Anderson/Freeman come to mind on our end), they are/were saddled by bad coaching, as we currently are, they lost a good WR, we lost Wayne, there TE fell off a cliff, so did ours, they've busted on several drafts, as have we, there young upcoming qb took a lot of hits, got hurt, lost his confidence. Ours has had 2/3 of that.....honestly if the Colts played last year or this year in the NFC west would our record be a whole lot better than SFs? Maybe what, 4-5 games better over 2years.

 

Bad football teams don't happen over night. But it does happen quickly. And the Colts appear to be at a cross roads of if they are gonna be SF bad, SD bad, or a good team. 

 

Doesn't really compare. The 49ers were much more reliant on the players they lost than we were; our aging players have slowly become unproductive, their players were still some of the best on their roster. Also, losing Harbaugh can't be emphasized enough.

 

Our TE fell off a cliff? I would say TE is one of our strongest units with Doyle and Swoope emerging, and I don't think Allen has "fallen off a cliff."  And comparing Luck to Kaepernick at this point doesn't make sense. Kap lost the coach who had mentored him to becoming a better passer and has played below replacement level for 2 years now, Luck just had one of his best seasons.

 

If we played in the NFC West we would get 6 games this year against the Rams/Cardinals/49ers so I think it's reasonable to say that yes, our record would be similar to what it was this year or even better. 

 

We have a lot of concerns on defense but we still are a young, talented team on offense. We aren't about to completely fall off.

[Superman]

38 minutes ago, IndyTrav said:

 

This is kind of the point I'm making. Those bad things are currently happening to the Colts. In 3 years time they went from good to bad, and we are teetering on doing the same. In 3 years they lost/hurt/suspended some of there best def players (Mathis/Vonte/Anderson/Freeman come to mind on our end), they are/were saddled by bad coaching, as we currently are, they lost a good WR, we lost Wayne, there TE fell off a cliff, so did ours, they've busted on several drafts, as have we, there young upcoming qb took a lot of hits, got hurt, lost his confidence. Ours has had 2/3 of that.....honestly if the Colts played last year or this year in the NFC west would our record be a whole lot better than SFs? Maybe what, 4-5 games better over 2years.

 

Bad football teams don't happen over night. But it does happen quickly. And the Colts appear to be at a cross roads of if they are gonna be SF bad, SD bad, or a good team. 

 

Well I agree with the last paragraph, not so much the first.

 

The Niners lost prime playmakers overnight, at critical positions. They also lost a good coach, and have changed their head coach every year since. Those things haven't happened to the Colts. Wayne was done halfway through 2013, and was mostly in the way in 2014 when they went to the AFCCG. Mathis hasn't been a difference maker since 2013. Freeman was good for us, but nowhere near the caliber of Willis or Bowman. Luck is better than Kaepernick, and continues to play better.

 

This same coaching staff went to the AFCCG two years ago, with a similar roster. The sequence of events isn't really similar. And to this point, neither are the results, so invoking the Niners is extremism, IMO. Saying 'I don't want us to be the Niners' is a different story, but people are going well beyond that lately.

[IndyTrav]

7 minutes ago, VocableLoki said:

Doesn't really compare. The 49ers were much more reliant on the players they lost than we were; our aging players have slowly become unproductive, their players were still some of the best on their roster. Also, losing Harbaugh can't be emphasized enough.

 

Our TE fell off a cliff? I would say TE is one of our strongest units with Doyle and Swoope emerging, and I don't think Allen has "fallen off a cliff."  And comparing Luck to Kaepernick at this point doesn't make sense. Kap lost the coach who had mentored him to becoming a better passer and has played below replacement level for 2 years now, Luck just had one of his best seasons.

 

If we played in the NFC West we would get 6 games this year against the Rams/Cardinals/49ers so I think it's reasonable to say that yes, our record would be similar to what it was this year or even better. 

 

We have a lot of concerns on defense but we still are a young, talented team on offense. We aren't about to completely fall off.

They were more reliant? I remember two years ago Mathis was Dpoy candidate, Vonte was shut down corner, Freeman was a respectable ILB. Now we are 8-8 for 2years. Seems to have had an impact. 

 

I agree losing Harbaugh is huge. And replacing him with a bad coach really hurts a team. Just like having Pagano. 8-8. 

 

As of Sunday Doyle is a FA, he currently doesn't play for us. Swoope has been in the league 2 years and has 15rec. Let's not crown his juuuuust yet....Allen has fallen off a cliff. Not only that, he's costing us a lot of $ in the process. 

 

Comparing Luck and Kaep does suck. Lucks currently 10-12 in the last 2 years and has been beaten to a pulp, and has racked up some pretty good garbage time #s. 

 

If we played in the NFC west we'd play Sea/Ari/Stl....we'd be lucky to go 2-4. 

[IndyTrav]

4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Well I agree with the last paragraph, not so much the first.

 

The Niners lost prime playmakers overnight, at critical positions. They also lost a good coach, and have changed their head coach every year since. Those things haven't happened to the Colts. Wayne was done halfway through 2013, and was mostly in the way in 2014 when they went to the AFCCG. Mathis hasn't been a difference maker since 2013. Freeman was good for us, but nowhere near the caliber of Willis or Bowman. Luck is better than Kaepernick, and continues to play better.

 

This same coaching staff went to the AFCCG two years ago, with a similar roster. The sequence of events isn't really similar. And to this point, neither are the results, so invoking the Niners is extremism, IMO. Saying 'I don't want us to be the Niners' is a different story, but people are going well beyond that lately.

Man for man I'm not arguing those guys weren't better than ours. But in the context of the teams they were on, they were THE guys. 

 

And i keep seeing you mention how this team went to an AFC championship game.....no they didnt, and you know it...these teams aren't even comparable. Entirely new coaching staff, OL, DL, DBs, and the offensive weapons. Too continually bring up something from 2013 is completely irrelevant.  

[Superman]

1 minute ago, IndyTrav said:

Man for man I'm not arguing those guys weren't better than ours. But in the context of the teams they were on, they were THE guys. 

 

And i keep seeing you mention how this team went to an AFC championship game.....no they didnt, and you know it...these teams aren't even comparable. Entirely new coaching staff, OL, DL, DBs, and the offensive weapons. Too continually bring up something from 2013 is completely irrelevant.  

 

Their losses were far more devastating than our losses have been, which is what I'm saying.

 

As for the bolded, you're right, but I really mean Pagano. Not trying to ignore that the staff has been overhauled; I think this staff, top to bottom, should be better than the 2014 staff. That's unproven to this point, though. All I'm saying is that Pagano coached a team to the AFCCG, so it's not like's he's incapable of having some postseason success.

 

Compare that to Jim Tomsula and Chip Kelly... Even when you take away Arians' W/L record, Pagano has more wins and more playoff success than the two of them combined.

 

In all, the Niners roster was almost completely gutted, their QB missed a lot more games and took significant steps backward, and most importantly, they lost a very good head coach. Those are the steps that led to them winning 7 games these past two seasons. The Colts haven't experienced any of that, IMO. Doesn't mean they can't wind up like them a couple years from now, but so far, that's not what we're dealing with.

[VocableLoki]

27 minutes ago, IndyTrav said:

They were more reliant? I remember two years ago Mathis was Dpoy candidate, Vonte was shut down corner, Freeman was a respectable ILB. Now we are 8-8 for 2years. Seems to have had an impact. 

 

I agree losing Harbaugh is huge. And replacing him with a bad coach really hurts a team. Just like having Pagano. 8-8. 

 

As of Sunday Doyle is a FA, he currently doesn't play for us. Swoope has been in the league 2 years and has 15rec. Let's not crown his juuuuust yet....Allen has fallen off a cliff. Not only that, he's costing us a lot of $ in the process. 

 

Comparing Luck and Kaep does suck. Lucks currently 10-12 in the last 2 years and has been beaten to a pulp, and has racked up some pretty good garbage time #s. 

 

If we played in the NFC west we'd play Sea/Ari/Stl....we'd be lucky to go 2-4. 

 

Claiming "Doyle is a FA" is pretty flimsy logic to claim our TEs are falling off the map. He would be our priority re-signing this year. Allen has not fallen off a cliff, his stats put him mid-level in the league with him essentially being a no 2 TE in an offense that uses 3. Allen hasn't been the most tight some thought he might be but he still a good player in our offense.

 

The point is: our defense wasn't great to begin with, our older players aged out and now we have to replace them, not nearly the same as one of the most talented teams in the NFL losing an unprecedented number of key players and making one of the most baffling recent coaching hires to replace one of the most successful coaches in the league at that point in time. We weren't as good as the best of those Niners teams and we are much better than them now, the situations don't compare very well. 

 

The Luck and Kap situations don't compare either, yes Luck runs the risk of being injured but that isn't why Kap fell off. Poor mechanics and bad play undid him. 

 

Disagree on being lucky to go 2-4, entirely reasonable to think we would at least split AZ, sweep LA, and steal one from STL.  

[jvan1973]

42 minutes ago, IndyTrav said:

They were more reliant? I remember two years ago Mathis was Dpoy candidate, Vonte was shut down corner, Freeman was a respectable ILB. Now we are 8-8 for 2years. Seems to have had an impact. 

 

I agree losing Harbaugh is huge. And replacing him with a bad coach really hurts a team. Just like having Pagano. 8-8. 

 

As of Sunday Doyle is a FA, he currently doesn't play for us. Swoope has been in the league 2 years and has 15rec. Let's not crown his juuuuust yet....Allen has fallen off a cliff. Not only that, he's costing us a lot of $ in the process. 

 

Comparing Luck and Kaep does suck. Lucks currently 10-12 in the last 2 years and has been beaten to a pulp, and has racked up some pretty good garbage time #s. 

 

If we played in the NFC west we'd play Sea/Ari/Stl....we'd be lucky to go 2-4. 

The last paragraph is conjecture.  You're  a better poster than that.  

[jvan1973]

12 minutes ago, VocableLoki said:

Claiming "Doyle is a FA" is pretty flimsy logic to claim our TEs are falling off the map. He would be our priority re-signing this year. Allen has not fallen off a cliff, his stats put him mid-level in the league with him essentially being a no 2 TE in an offense that uses 3. Allen hasn't been the most tight some thought he might be but he still a good player in our offense.

 

The point is: our defense wasn't great to begin with, our older players aged out and now we have to replace them, not nearly the same as one of the most talented teams in the NFL losing an unprecedented number of key players and making one of the most baffling recent coaching hires to replace one of the most successful coaches in the league at that point in time. We weren't as good as the best of those Niners teams and we are much better than them now, the situations don't compare very well. 

 

The Luck and Kap situations don't compare either, yes Luck runs the risk of being injured but that isn't why Kap fell off. Poor mechanics and bad play undid him. 

 

Disagree on being lucky to go 2-4, entirely reasonable to think we would at least split AZ, sweep LA, and steal one from STL.  

The rams were terrible this year.   I wouldn't think a win against them was a steal

 

Edit.     I think you meant sea now that I reread it.  I agree with your post completely

[AZColt11]

If we're talking about overall, this team is way above the Niners.  At least the Colts are .500 or better the last 5 years and have a franchise QB to build around.  

 

If we're talking about general direction of the team, then yeah I might be inclined to agree.

[VocableLoki]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

The rams were terrible this year.   I wouldn't think a win against them was a steal

 

Edit.     I think you meant sea now that I reread it.  I agree with your post completely

Seattle is what I meant. Bad abbreviation on my part. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 1/3/2017 at 5:02 PM, Superman said:

Niners -- Four seasons, four coaching changes, 7 wins the past two seasons, going down the drain

 

Colts -- Staying put in the name of continuity, 8-8 the past two seasons, going down the drain

 

Seems some perspective is missing.

 

Wilbon and Kornheiser DO have an irrational hatred for Jim Irsay. This is not a tortured Colts fan saying this. 

 

 

 

Funny how the 49ers have been just putrid since they fired Harbaugh... because he wasn't "nice."

[dgambill]

7 hours ago, Superman said:

 

You mean after they blew out their very successful head coach because he and the GM didn't get along? You also mentioned the significant personnel losses they suffered, but only some of them. Chris Borland and Justin Smith also retired, they got rid of Crabtree, their OL has changed significantly...

 

If a bunch of bad things happen to the Colts, yes, they could be in the same situation as the Niners. That's true of most (all?) teams, though. They happened to survive Luck's absence last year, and I don't think you can count on that in general. No question the team isn't where it was expected to be 2-3 years ago, but they are not spiraling.

Agree the one key is with a franchise qb like Luck you can cover up for a whole lot of mistakes. Combine that with the fact our division has been incredibly weak the last 6-7 years we really have been lucky. It's like the AFC East. One team has a franchise qb and the rest struggle. What's bad about us we have that and we still aren't beating these weak teams. If things go wrong like it did for SF we could get worse but Luck can get you 5 or 6 wins.

 

SF caught lightening in a bottle with Kaep but that team was great because of the over aboundance of talent in that front 7. You lose like 3 pro bowl LBs two pro bowl pass rushers on DL in the Smith duo and some hard hitting safeties that team was just loaded. Add Gore behind a good OL that's a good team. That's why I'd love to upgrade our LBs because you can see what special LBs can cover up for your team. It isn't everyday you have a mass exedus like they have had last couple years. Let's be honest if TY went down and we lost Davis on defense for a season even with Luck this team wouldn't be much better than SF...it would struggle. Hopefully the calvery is on the way and we add more talent this offseason. SF obviously has drafted well because they accumulated all that talent they had but even there you can see what a couple whiff drafts can set a team back in the last few years. Grigson can't have anymore of those...especially back to back. Looks like he did ok last couple years but we need another strong draft class and a couple leaders on defense to turn this back around....otherwise sure...we may be 6-10 next year with a couple injuries to key players very easily and be falling apart like SF or  NY.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

Let's be honest if TY went down and we lost Davis on defense for a season even with Luck this team wouldn't be much better than SF...it would struggle

 

But like I said, you take away any team's best players, they're going to struggle. As of right now, the Colts haven't lost their best players, nor have they lost a very good coach. All I'm saying is that the Niners fell apart because a bunch of negative stuff happened in a short period of time, and that isn't the case with the Colts.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Funny how the 49ers have been just putrid since they fired Harbaugh... because he wasn't "nice."

 

Baalke didn't like him.