Household Names Not Re-signed/Cut

[Mr. Irrelevant]

4 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

I'd keep Butler and Adams. We have a lot of spots to improve on that side of the ball and those guys can definitely still play a role.

 

This, especially if Adams doesn't cost us much. Sooner or later his play will take a dump, but who knows if we can get one more turn out of him?

[jskinnz]

7 hours ago, csmopar said:

Cut Allen as well, worthless, huge mistake letting Fleener walk for that piece of garbage at TE

 

You may not like Allen and it certainly can be argued that he did not live up to his contract, but their offseason decision was exactly the right one.  I believe they liked what Swoope, whose skill set is similar to Fleener's, could turn into for a fraction of the cost.  

 

It might be helpful to grab clue on how a team is built and understand how the allocate resources.

[Chucklez]

9 hours ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Adams is done.

Based on what evidence? He is still our best safety....

[K-148]

Cut/do not resign: A. Jones, D. Jackson, T. Cole, R. Mathis, H. Thornton, S. Tolzien, J. Reitz, K. Langford, E. Walden.

Resign: J. Doyle, M. Adams, D. Butler.

Questionable: F. Gore, D. Allen, V. Davis, P. Robinson.

[superrep1967]

11 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

I doubt Butler goes anywhere.  He will probably move to Safety and he can fill in as a CB so he has value.  But you are probably right on the rest of them,

 

And you should add Robinson in there.  The young guys look better than he does. Unless he move strictly to nickle 

 

 

I know that Adams is getting long in the tooth. But he's still playing well. 

[superrep1967]

6 minutes ago, K-148 said:

Cut/do not resign: A. Jones, D. Jackson, T. Cole, R. Mathis, H. Thornton, S. Tolzien, J. Reitz, K. Langford, E. Walden.

Resign: J. Doyle, M. Adams, D. Butler.

Questionable: F. Gore, D. Allen, V. Davis, P. Robinson.

 

I'd say cut ties with Allen. But I think he's still under contract so they should see if they could trade him which I doubt any team would want him.  I don't agree with Walden and Davis though shouldn't even be questionable we should definitely keep them. 

[HungarianColtsFan]

12 hours ago, IndyD4U said:

Like the title says. IMO these guys need to go. We need to get younger, and we need guys who can stay on the field. 

We also need Grigson to have another strong draft. Yes, Grigson....I don't think we'll see any front office/major coaching changes. We have some promising young players, just need a few more pieces. 

 

Robert Mathis
Darius Butler
Mike Adams
Trent Cole
Hugh Thornton
D'Qwell Jackson
Arthur Jones

 

Finally, Go Colts! Always Bleeding Blue

 

I'd keep Butler, and Mathis will retire  at the end of the season IMO. I'm fine with the others.

[1959Colts]

Don't bring any of them back

[BPindy]

I'm also on board for Adams and Butler as depth. Mathis could be decent still IF used only for important downs - not nearly as much as he played this year. 

 

Allen should be used less if we keep him, I doubt we'd get anything in a trade because of that massive contract 

[csmopar]

8 hours ago, dudeski said:

allen is 10 times the football player fleener is

 

Nuts 

[Gavin]

11 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

Ok. Then tell me when he has been?  Give me one good game???    Because you cannot tell me a good season.  

I never said he was good...he hasn't been for any lengthy stretch anyway. I was referring to your juvenile like comment about kicking him in the balls on the way out.......By the way RG has not been settled yet. Bring him back because he has as high or higher potential than anyone and I'd like to see how does since he long weight if he can stay healthy in preseason next year. If he stinks then no harm no foul cut him but ya got to have RG locked down first

[Coltfreak]

20 minutes ago, Gavin said:

I never said he was good...he hasn't been for any lengthy stretch anyway. I was referring to your juvenile like comment about kicking him in the balls on the way out.......By the way RG has not been settled yet. Bring him back because he has as high or higher potential than anyone and I'd like to see how does since he long weight if he can stay healthy in preseason next year. If he stinks then no harm no foul cut him but ya got to have RG locked down first

I'm assuming you have been kicked in the balls a few too many times.   Sorry I must have brought up bad memory. 

[Coltfreak]

7 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

I know that Adams is getting long in the tooth. But he's still playing well. 

His play has dropped from last season and will again by next.   Time to cut the ties.  Butler can put on some weight and he will work out fine 

[jbaron04]

On 12/24/2016 at 7:13 PM, Coltfreak said:

I doubt Butler goes anywhere.  He will probably move to Safety and he can fill in as a CB so he has value.  But you are probably right on the rest of them,

 

And you should add Robinson in there.  The young guys look better than he does. Unless he move strictly to nickle 

 

For what he making he needs to improve or be cut 

[VocableLoki]

19 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Oh this argument again? Let it go man. Allen has been exposed.

Exposed? Again, a solid tight end with plus blocking, nothing more nothing less. No reason to start cutting solid contributors. 

[Archangel]

On 12/24/2016 at 11:03 PM, ClaytonColt said:

I'd keep Butler and Adams. We have a lot of spots to improve on that side of the ball and those guys can definitely still play a role.

 

I'd also keep Thornton as a back up. He's still a young guy, he's not terrible and you can never have too much depth and competition on the o-line.

 

I think you cut Thorton you have Good who has showed he can play RG and RT, Harrison who can play Guard or Center, Reitz, who can play multiple postions and Blythe who also can play center and Guard they are all better then then Thorton IMOP

[ClaytonColt]

22 minutes ago, Archangel said:

 

I think you cut Thorton you have Good who has showed he can play RG and RT, Harrison who can play Guard or Center, Reitz, who can play multiple postions and Blythe who also can play center and Guard they are all better then then Thorton IMOP

Think I'd rather cut Reitz if the saving was significant as Thornton still has more upside to me. I would probably keep them all though if possible.

[jameszeigler834]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 7:11 AM, superrep1967 said:

I'd say cut ties with Allen. But I think he's still under contract so they should see if they could trade him which I doubt any team would want him.  I don't agree with Walden and Davis though shouldn't even be questionable we should definitely keep them. 

Keep Davis  bye bye Allen I would restructure Langford and or just flat out keep him if he is 100% healthy.

[Buddy Lee]

On 12/24/2016 at 8:06 PM, bigt said:

I know Adams is old, but I don't know if I would cut our best player on defense before we find another safety that's at least as good as him.  All we have right now is Geathers and Butler who are both injury prone.  If we cut Butler, we only have Geathers.   Green, like Dorsett, is another high round reach that Grigson/Pagano made based off combine measurables instead of game film.  I hope he improves greatly over the offseason. I agree with all the rest. 

Based on my eye test I am more optimistic about Green's future than Dorsett's. Green can fly and is certainly not afraid of contact. He hits with authority. He made some mistakes this year but he also made some brilliant plays chasing down ball carriers that he had no business catching. A true sideline-to-sideline player. If he learns the position better, he can be a true impact player.

[Buddy Lee]

On 12/24/2016 at 7:20 PM, RockThatBlue said:

I'd add Ferguson to your list though. I know it was only his first year, but color me un impressed to say the least. Todman is better than him IMO.

I have to agree. In fact, I am hoping that Gore gets his 36 yards early and is replaced by Todman instead of Turbin. Not that I think Todman is better than Turbin but we already know what Turbin can do. I'd like to see more of what Todman can do. Todman has looked good in the little action he has seen.

[Buddy Lee]

On 12/25/2016 at 0:01 AM, Colts_Fan12 said:

If we can upgrade at the Safety spots then we need to I'm so tired of our safeties hardly ever getting INTs I'm ready for some real ballhawk back there for once 

Ah, you must be overlooking Mike Adams in order to say that. 

[will426]

1 hour ago, Buddy Lee said:

Based on my eye test I am more optimistic about Green's future than Dorsett's. Green can fly and is certainly not afraid of contact. He hits with authority. He made some mistakes this year but he also made some brilliant plays chasing down ball carriers that he had no business catching. A true sideline-to-sideline player. If he learns the position better, he can be a true impact player.

Green needs to be a team player he's very young minded and selfish  and forget him not being afraid of contact he just flies in with his shoulder and he misses big time lol...his speed is the only thing that stands out because his coverage is horrendous butler at safety in like 3 games outplayed green at his own position and he played in pretty much every game 

[Buddy Lee]

34 minutes ago, will426 said:

Green needs to be a team player he's very young minded and selfish  and forget him not being afraid of contact he just flies in with his shoulder and he misses big time lol...his speed is the only thing that stands out because his coverage is horrendous butler at safety in like 3 games outplayed green at his own position and he played in pretty much every game 

I agree that Green made a lot of mistakes this year. Hopefully, he can and will be "coached up". (I hate that term but it conveys the idea.) I have no idea about Mike Adams' mentoring skills. I don't even know if Adams will be on the team in 2017. Green would do well to emulate Adams' approach at safety. Will Green learn? I hope so.

[Colts_Fan12]

2 hours ago, Buddy Lee said:

Ah, you must be overlooking Mike Adams in order to say that. 

Mike Adams is 100 years old and only picks off trash qbs 

 

[bigt]

Assuming we pick in the 14-16 range, which appears likely, here are the players on drafttek's big board that will be in the sweet spot in each of the 1st 3 rounds of the draft in positions of need.  I included 2 OLB's in 1st round because I feel we might be willing to reach down to grab the next best edge if Barnett is gone.  I didn't include players like Charles Harris, Tim Williams, Desmond King, and Zach Cunningham because analysts might consider that reaching given our areas of need which are (edge, DL5T, DL1T, 3 Down ILB, CB, FRB maybe RT).

 

Round 1

12   Malik McDowell   DL5T

13   Derek Barnett     Edge

15   Dalvin Cook        RB

16   Ryan Ramczyk    OT

17   Reuben Foster    ILB

18   Adoree Jackson   CB

19   Demarcus Walker Edge

 

Assuming we pick in the 46 to 48 range in the 2nd round, the players in the sweet spot in positions of need according to draftteks big board (+/- 4) are:  Again, I could have reached for a few players, but I wanted to stay as pure as possible in relation to board vs areas of need (BPA strategy).

 

43    Duane Smoot      Edge

45    Devonte Fields    Edge

48    Solomon Thomas Edge

 

Finally, 3rd round picks following above philosophy for 3rd round picks 78 - 80.

 

74      Carlos Watkins    DL1T

75      Quincy Wilson     CB

77       Josh Carraway    Edge

78      Avery Gennesy    OT

80       Taylor Moton        OT

81       Jeremy McNichols RB

82       Davon Godchaux  DL5T

84        DeAngelo Brown  DL1T

 

The 4th round would be a good round to grab a DL5T because their will be 3 quality players in the sweet zone of the probable spot we will be picking in (110 - 112).

 

Isaac Rochelle

Nazair Jones

Vincent Taylor

 

Crap shoot from the 5th round on.  Maybe just go crazy on RB's and CB's hoping we get lucky and find a hidden gem like Terrell Davis.

 

Taking FA out of picture and also taking into account the number of quality players in each positional grouping of need in the sweet spot of where we will be selecting and the relative drop off of talent thereafter, I think a good way to go would be (assuming we are going defense heavy).

 

Round 1 Edge          Barnett (probably won't be there) or Walker (others

                                 would be considered reaches if board holds.  Foster

                                 may be an option as well at ILB.

Round 2 Edge          Smoot, Fields, Thomas

Round 3 DL1T          Watkins or Brown

Round 4 DL5T          Rochelle, Jones, or Taylor

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maniq]

On 12/25/2016 at 0:59 PM, K-148 said:

Cut/do not resign: A. Jones, D. Jackson, T. Cole, R. Mathis, H. Thornton, S. Tolzien, J. Reitz, K. Langford, E. Walden.

Resign: J. Doyle, M. Adams, D. Butler.

Questionable: F. Gore, D. Allen, V. Davis, P. Robinson.

Walden and Davis to go? No no. Of course you keep them.

[will426]

9 hours ago, Buddy Lee said:

I agree that Green made a lot of mistakes this year. Hopefully, he can and will be "coached up". (I hate that term but it conveys the idea.) I have no idea about Mike Adams' mentoring skills. I don't even know if Adams will be on the team in 2017. Green would do well to emulate Adams' approach at safety. Will Green learn? I hope so.

Hopefully it's a new staff to teach him

[throwing BBZ]

On 12/25/2016 at 6:45 AM, Chucklez said:

Based on what evidence? He is still our best safety....

 

 Our best safety on a ____ defense.
 He was at best mediocre this season.
 We MUST get better on D. He is not going to be part of THAT. JMO of course.

[throwing BBZ]

On 12/25/2016 at 2:02 PM, Gavin said:

I never said he was good...he hasn't been for any lengthy stretch anyway. I was referring to your juvenile like comment about kicking him in the balls on the way out.......By the way RG has not been settled yet. Bring him back because he has as high or higher potential than anyone and I'd like to see how does since he long weight if he can stay healthy in preseason next year. If he stinks then no harm no foul cut him but ya got to have RG locked down first

 

 For me Thornton disqualified himself when he admitted he was up to 340lb in 2015 and that this past off season (his Contract year), was the first time he had EVER gotten off the cheeseburger diet and started taking a Professionals attitude towards nutrition.  To me it would be very wrong to re-sign a guy with his poor mentality  AND with his injury history. 
  I totally agree with kicking him somewhere on his way out the door.
  And I believe they already figuratively Did in fact.
 
 

[Shive]

I'm so glad nobody on this forum has any say in roster decisions (with a few exceptions). If only it was as easy as "this guy's struggled this year, CUT HIM!" Who replaces them? What ball hawk safety replaces Adams? What TE is going to be the solid blocking/receiving threat that Allen can be?

 

The theme on this forum seems to be that if they're not all-pro players, they should be cut. You don't need a ton of individually all-pro players (which never happens, ever), you need average to above average players that work well together and execute. Hell, the Pats consistently have a few very good players and almost all pedestrian guys around them. They just execute well and fill their roles. No more, no less.

 

I can agree that Jones (between injuries, the suspension, and subpar play, I'm over him), Cole, Mathis, and Jackson should be gone, but they're aging vets that can no longer be 3 down players. They can't play special teams and therefore are wasting roster spots for younger guys we could develop in those roles.

[akcolt]

On 12/24/2016 at 10:23 PM, SupermanLuck12 said:

Hugh Thornton is still in his rookie contract and is pretty much making pennies. This is one of those low risk-high reward situations and we could possibly keep him around until the end of TC and then make a decision on him, but if we cut him early I won't be surprised either.

Thorton is an UFA in 2017. He's gone. Our other FA's Mathis Cole Ayers Walden Butler Adams Doyle Todman Turbin Carter Morris Williams. 

 

Walden Ayers Butler Morris Doyle are guy's I'd bring back Todman too all if the price is right

[zibby43]

On 12/25/2016 at 2:24 AM, Defjamz26 said:

Allen has been exposed.

 

In what way?  He's the only TE on the entire Colts roster that is capable of inline blocking. 

 

As far as blocking, is concerned, Doyle is fine when used in an H-back role.  When utilized as a lead blocker, wham blocker, Doyle is pretty effective.  When he is left one-on-one inline, he gets destroyed more often than not (which is why he isn't used inline often; instead, Allen is utilized here).  Doyle is also nice on short to intermediate routes and in the Red Zone.  You will not see Doyle running past any LBs or Strong Safeties. 

 

Swoope's only value, at this point, is as a receiving target (much like Fleener).  I highly doubt he ever becomes an effective blocker in the league (whether it be in an H-back role or in an inline role).

 

People can be disappointed with Allen's production after looking at his receiving statistics.  But, if one actually watch some game film, one will notice two things: 1) Allen is used as an inline blocker, a lot; 2) Allen can stretch an opposing defense vertically, something Doyle cannot do. 

[Defjamz26]

4 minutes ago, zibby43 said:

 

In what way?  He's the only TE on the entire Colts roster that is capable of inline blocking. 

 

As far as blocking, is concerned, Doyle is fine when used in an H-back role.  When utilized as a lead blocker, wham blocker, Doyle is pretty effective.  When he is left one-on-one inline, he gets destroyed more often than not (which is why he isn't used inline often; instead, Allen is utilized here).  Doyle is also nice on short to intermediate routes and in the Red Zone.  You will not see Doyle running past any LBs or Strong Safeties. 

 

Swoope's only value, at this point, is as a receiving target (much like Fleener).  I highly doubt he ever becomes an effective blocker in the league (whether it be in an H-back role or in an inline role).

 

People can be disappointed with Allen's production after looking at his receiving statistics.  But, if one actually watch some game film, one will notice two things: 1) Allen is used as an inline blocker, a lot; 2) Allen can stretch an opposing defense vertically, something Doyle cannot do. 

So the same old excuse huh? His blocking is overrated. And if he was a better receiver they wouldn't have him block as much. That's why Fleener got more targets and Doyle and Swoope combined have gotten more. Allen is a mediocre TE who's only good game was against a poor Jets team.

[zibby43]

Just now, Defjamz26 said:

So the same old excuse huh? His blocking is overrated. And if he was a better receiver they wouldn't have him block as much. That's why Fleener got more targets and Doyle and Swoope combined have gotten more. Allen is a mediocre TE who's only good game was against a poor Jets team.

 

It's not an excuse, it's reality.  The tape doesn't lie.  But I'm not going to waste my breath with the Allen-bashing crowd that just throws out random statements without any substantive backing. 

 

Doyle gets more targets because he's used less as a blocker (because he's not good at it).  Swoope gets more targets because at this point, he cannot block at all (guy is still learning how to play football).

 

If the o-line were better, and if Doyle and Swoope could actually block, the Colts wouldn't have to use Allen as a 6th OL and they would utilize him more in the passing game.

 

You understand the advantage, schematically, of putting a guy like Allen in an eligible, inline position, right?  The formation doesn't end up telegraphing the play.  Allen could be blocking.  He could be running a short/intermediate route.  He could be running a vertical route.

 

When Doyle is in, he is either going to lead block, wham block, or run an intermediate route.  When Swoope is in, he is running a route.

[Defjamz26]

25 minutes ago, zibby43 said:

 

It's not an excuse, it's reality.  The tape doesn't lie.  But I'm not going to waste my breath with the Allen-bashing crowd that just throws out random statements without any substantive backing. 

 

Doyle gets more targets because he's used less as a blocker (because he's not good at it).  Swoope gets more targets because at this point, he cannot block at all (guy is still learning how to play football).

 

If the o-line were better, and if Doyle and Swoope could actually block, the Colts wouldn't have to use Allen as a 6th OL and they would utilize him more in the passing game.

 

You understand the advantage, schematically, of putting a guy like Allen in an eligible, inline position, right?  The formation doesn't end up telegraphing the play.  Allen could be blocking.  He could be running a short/intermediate route.  He could be running a vertical route.

 

When Doyle is in, he is either going to lead block, wham block, or run an intermediate route.  When Swoope is in, he is running a route.

I hear you. But you're speaking from the belief that a TEs most valuable skill or primary job is to block, when it isn't. While it's important to have a TE that can block, that's basically every offensive position now. RBs have to block and sometimes WRs even. But the primary job of a TE is to catch passes and create a mismatch in coverage due to their size. Kelce, Gronk, Reed, Walker, etc...are top TEs who are noted for their pass catching ability. Yeah they can block but that's not their primary jobs.

 

Essentially when you have a TE who isn't a great receiver, he basically turns into a blocking TE (Allen). When you have a TE who can't block, you have a receiving TE or what some people call a hybrid TE/WR (Devin Funchess). Guys that are exceptional receivers that can block well are complete TEs like Gronk. But make no mistake, having a TE blocking has its advantages but that's not why some of these guys are paid.

 

The argument against Allen is that he's paid too much because his best skill is his blocking. Our other two TEs have outplayed him as a receiver. He's dropped several key passes this season and has had some really bad moments as well.

[dudeski]

On 12/26/2016 at 10:20 PM, Buddy Lee said:

Based on my eye test I am more optimistic about Green's future than Dorsett's. Green can fly and is certainly not afraid of contact. He hits with authority. He made some mistakes this year but he also made some brilliant plays chasing down ball carriers that he had no business catching. A true sideline-to-sideline player. If he learns the position better, he can be a true impact player.

green did not make a single "brilliant" play

[Archer]

I agree with everyone but Adams.  (Or as someone suggested, Butler can play safety.)  We've got to have an experienced back-up safety...

[jshipp23]

Keep Butler, Adams, Langford, Jones and maybe Thornton if he is finally healthy..All will be relative cheap, and can all still produce..If you cut them you then have to replace them..Id rather keep them and add more pieces, if we find better guys in draft and free agency then we have quality depth..

[krunk]

I dont know where I'm at with TJ Green. Guy has all that athleticism and zero awareness. Hes just lost in coverage. Even in man coverage. He'd probably struggle worse if you make him a corner. I'm hoping to see some significant improvement from him in 2017.

[Colts1324]

On 12/24/2016 at 7:10 PM, IndyD4U said:

Like the title says. IMO these guys need to go. We need to get younger, and we need guys who can stay on the field. 

We also need Grigson to have another strong draft. Yes, Grigson....I don't think we'll see any front office/major coaching changes. We have some promising young players, just need a few more pieces. 

 

Robert Mathis
Darius Butler
Mike Adams
Trent Cole
Hugh Thornton
D'Qwell Jackson
Arthur Jones

 

Finally, Go Colts! Always Bleeding Blue

Obviously now that Mathis is retiring that takes the toughest cut/not to resign decision of the offseason out of the the way. I seriously doubt Thornton or Jones is back. You wouldn't think Cole or Jackson comes back, but I have a feeling one of them will be.