Coach Obrien Sits Osweiler

[JimJaime]

11 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

The Colts, with by far the best QB in the AFC South sit in 3rd place.

 

While the team in first place benched their QB because he was so terrible.

 

Unbelievable.

I say Mariota will challenge Luck for that distinction for years to come. That kid looks good even in pressure situations. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, JimJaime said:

I say Mariota will challenge Luck for that distinction for years to come. That kid looks good even in pressure situations. 

Mariota is pretty Good. If the Colts get better on Defense it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Titans, Texans, and Colts all won 10 games next season. The Texans are iffy at the QB position but Watt will be back and they have a solid Roster outside of QB. Having said that, Luck is definitely better than Mariota. I like to see QB's play Good to Very Good for at least 2 to 3 seasons before I say they are the real deal and Luck did that in his first 3 seasons, Luck has actually played Good this season as well but because we are 7-7 he isn't getting much love from the media.

[southwest1]

On December 19, 2016 at 11:26 PM, krunk said:

That's another topic. I'm speaking solely on what I saw or see in Savage. Bill being a QB guru or not is not on my mind. Its already been established that BB coaches aren't all that once they leave the nest. Romeo Crennel has kept his pedigree wherever hes been though. A top level DC, that's his calling card wherever hes been. Bum as a head coach though. Obrien is doing alright overall.

No, it really isn't. It's really an extension of the quality of Houston's face of the franchise, the owner who cuts Brock's check, & whether or not Bill O'Brien can succeed on his own running an NFL program. True, other teams like the Seahawks, Paul Allen, & Pete Carroll were allowed to cut Matt Flynn loose in favor of RW & that gamble paid off with a Championship in 2013.

 

However, 1 good game by Savage does not make him a bonafide longterm starter. Brock OZ did go 8-2 in Denver last yr as a starter in Manning's absence & giving up on Brock this soon as the guy in Houston means that the decision to guarantee Brock as much money as they did was a colossal mistake. 

 

You're making the talent/production on the field argument for Savage & I'm saying you don't dismiss a SB Champion that darn quick because of the clout that carries & owners hate paying all that money to a starter not on the field. 

 

I know; I know. Dak Prescott over Tony Romo is the next argument you're gonna make to prove your point that talent wins over salary if a team is winning. Except a logical argument could be made that the Texans are winning because RB Lamar Miller, J. Clowney, & Vince Wilfork so why would Savage be viewed as a longterm savior of this franchise. 

[southwest1]

On December 19, 2016 at 11:46 PM, dw49 said:

 

 

No Brock is not going to be the starter. Crazy thing about the whole situation is that if Savage plays around the level they hoped Oswieler would play at , it really isn't a "killer" for Houston. They would have their QB for next year for 600K and the guy with the 19 mill cap # backs up. Then they can do what they want in 2018 as most of the "punishment" for Oswieler vanishes after 2 years. So in essence if savage can play at a good level in 2017 , they are paying about what teams pay for a good QB. The money is just going to the wrong guy .. that's all. Now if Savage is not the guy , then they are serious crap as there's good chance they won't have their "guy" in 2018 and maybe longer.

I disagree 100% Brock's sample size as a starter being the face of the franchise is much too small. You're not replacing him that soon because it would mean your scouts & talent evaluators completely suck & Lamar Miller is the real reason why the Texans are in playoff contention right now not their QB play. 

 

If Bill O'Brien is any good as a former OC in NE, he should be able to mold Brock into a decent QB & if Bill throws in the towel on Brock that fast, it means Brady made O'Brien's career & he is subpar as a teacher, mentor, & instructor to tweak mistakes & transform Oz's confidence & skill set on the field when it makes most in December & January. 

[krunk]

5 hours ago, southwest1 said:

No, it really isn't. It's really an extension of the quality of Houston's face of the franchise, the owner who cuts Brock's check, & whether or not Bill O'Brien can succeed on his own running an NFL program. True, other teams like the Seahawks, Paul Allen, & Pete Carroll were allowed to cut Matt Flynn loose in favor of RW & that gamble paid off with a Championship in 2013.

 

However, 1 good game by Savage does not make him a bonafide longterm starter. Brock OZ did go 8-2 in Denver last yr as a starter in Manning's absence & giving up on Brock this soon as the guy in Houston means that the decision to guarantee Brock as much money as they did was a colossal mistake. 

 

You're making the talent/production on the field argument for Savage & I'm saying you don't dismiss a SB Champion that darn quick because of the clout that carries & owners hate paying all that money to a starter not on the field. 

 

I know; I know. Dak Prescott over Tony Romo is the next argument you're gonna make to prove your point that talent wins over salary if a team is winning. Except a logical argument could be made that the Texans are winning because RB Lamar Miller, J. Clowney, & Vince Wilfork so why would Savage be viewed as a longterm savior of this franchise. 

You are getting way too deep brother.. I made like two sentences on how I felt Savage could play the Small window of times I saw him and you turn it into pages of commentary about Obrien being a Guru? Where did I ever talk about Obrien in my Original post at all? This is purely about Tom Savage and whether or not he had ability to play. I believe the dude can play and that was my belief before the Jags game. Would not surprise me if he kept the Job. I think he has ability. That doesn't make him a savior. This is the NFL and all you need is an opportunity sometimes. Hes got some ability to take advantage of his opportunity. Doesnt mean he will, but it wont shock me if he plays well. On the other side of the coin I may add that he's a backup so there's just as much probability that he will flop. I will let Toms performance speak for itself. Personally I never thought they needed to pickup Brock in the first place. It was a panic move due to the playoff loss. You could see it was in their Original plans to groom Savage for a year or two. You may not like the move Obrien made but the fact is Savage is the starter now. Hes been in that offense for a year or two now. Hes been groomed in a similar way that Osweiler was in Denver although not behind a Manning. Lets keep that in mind. It might be his time just like when Brock had to step in. If he's prepared hes got all the things you like in a QB to keep the job. If he's not prepared it goes back to Brock.

[krunk]

5 hours ago, southwest1 said:

I disagree 100% Brock's sample size as a starter being the face of the franchise is much too small. You're not replacing him that soon because it would mean your scouts & talent evaluators completely suck & Lamar Miller is the real reason why the Texans are in playoff contention right now not their QB play. 

 

If Bill O'Brien is any good as a former OC in NE, he should be able to mold Brock into a decent QB & if Bill throws in the towel on Brock that fast, it means Brady made O'Brien's career & he is subpar as a teacher, mentor, & instructor to tweak mistakes & transform Oz's confidence & skill set on the field when it makes most in December & January. 

Savage has been in this Offensive system way longer than Brock. Its not unreasonable to think he would be better than Brock in some areas of execution of their offense. This is like his 3rd year in this scheme. Its a scheme where if you play within the system there are lots of easy quick throws he can make. If he does that then he will do well. Brock doesnt always do what that scheme is asking of him. He has accuracy and timing issues on top of not reading the field well. They've had to make it into a Lamar Miller offense because of that.

[dw49]

7 hours ago, southwest1 said:

I disagree 100% Brock's sample size as a starter being the face of the franchise is much too small. You're not replacing him that soon because it would mean your scouts & talent evaluators completely suck & Lamar Miller is the real reason why the Texans are in playoff contention right now not their QB play. 

 

If Bill O'Brien is any good as a former OC in NE, he should be able to mold Brock into a decent QB & if Bill throws in the towel on Brock that fast, it means Brady made O'Brien's career & he is subpar as a teacher, mentor, & instructor to tweak mistakes & transform Oz's confidence & skill set on the field when it makes most in December & January. 

 

 

You need to read my post without dismissing the word "if." My whole premise is based on the "situation" Houston will be in IF Savage wins the job starting off 2017. He's already been replaced by Savage (which makes your post flawed to begin with) , the question is will it be permanent . If Savage plays well , it's probably the case. They just bite the bullet next year , cut Oswieler and resign or extend Savage. By the way , I called this about 4 weeks ago as I watch as the Texnas when it doesn't interfere with watching the Colts. By the way , this is Brock's 5th season in the NFL. He's not performing like even a middle of the road QB. Players go to different systems all the time , they usually get it. 

 

Your comparisons with Brady , O' Brien and Brock escapes me. If Houston made a mistake signing a guy that couldn't keep the Denver job , it's a gamble that just didn't pay off. I don't see how that necessarily reflects on O Brien as a teacher. Some QB's just can't make the correct reads and they don't see the field. The game is too fast for them. Happens all the time . RG3... ? Same thing . Lots of arm talent , just doesn't have the make up to play at a high level. At this point in time , Oswieler appears to be ne of these guys. Could the light go on for him ? Yeah it's possible but if Savage plays like he did vs Jacksonville , it may be with another team in 2018. BTW... that is a big if. QB's often play well in relief and then fall apart when they are handed the job.

 

Oh.. and why do you say ....

 

"You're not replacing him that soon because it would mean your scouts & talent evaluators completely suck & Lamar Miller is the real reason why the Texans are in playoff contention right now not their QB play. "

 

The Texans are not in playoff contention because of their QB play. I think most would agree that it would be "in spite of their QB play ?"

 

Will be interesting to say the least.

[southwest1]

7 hours ago, krunk said:

You are getting way too deep brother.. I made like two sentences on how I felt Savage could play the Small window of times I saw him and you turn it into pages of commentary about Obrien being a Guru? Where did I ever talk about Obrien in my Original post at all? This is purely about Tom Savage and whether or not he had ability to play. I believe the dude can play and that was my belief before the Jags game. Would not surprise me if he kept the Job. I think he has ability. That doesn't make him a savior. This is the NFL and all you need is an opportunity sometimes. Hes got some ability to take advantage of his opportunity. Doesnt mean he will, but it wont shock me if he plays well. On the other side of the coin I may add that he's a backup so there's just as much probability that he will flop. I will let Toms performance speak for itself. Personally I never thought they needed to pickup Brock in the first place. It was a panic move due to the playoff loss. You could see it was in their Original plans to groom Savage for a year or two. You may not like the move Obrien made but the fact is Savage is the starter now. Hes been in that offense for a year or two now. Hes been groomed in a similar way that Osweiler was in Denver although not behind a Manning. Lets keep that in mind. It might be his time just like when Brock had to step in. If he's prepared hes got all the things you like in a QB to keep the job. If he's not prepared it goes back to Brock.

Good points on your part krunk. I just think that too many football fans, not you, gave up on Brock too quickly. And, if an owner green lights the Brock move before the season starts, obviously Bob McNair felt like the Texans would never compete for a Championship with what currently existed on their roster at the QB position. 

 

Switching to Savage makes sense temporarily as Houston attempts to win the division, but as a permanent starter moving forward, I'm not sold yet. I'm not claiming Savage being the defacto starter longterm is your position krunk. I just mean that going after Brock means the owner wanted to shake things up & find a field general he felt the Texans did not currently have. 

[southwest1]

5 hours ago, dw49 said:

Your comparisons with Brady , O' Brien and Brock escapes me. If Houston made a mistake signing a guy that couldn't keep the Denver job , it's a gamble that just didn't pay off. I don't see how that necessarily reflects on O Brien as a teacher. Some QB's just can't make the correct reads and they don't see the field. The game is too fast for them. Happens all the time . RG3... ? Same thing .

Why do my Brady comparisons escape you on O'Brien's behalf? It makes perfect sense to me DW49. You act like the Texans bought an expensive toy sight unseen. They didn't & if a HC with a Championship pedigree on his resume can't mold another QB to compete for at least a deep playoff run, then that means Bill O'Brien sucks as a teacher or at least is overrated plain & simple. 

 

You're going to mention RG3 & Brock in the same sentence? Now, that's funny. Has Robert contributed to winning a SB? Nope. Look, I get what you're saying. Some QBs never reach their playoff potential on the field as a starter & coaches can't hold their hand on the field when games really matter. A valid point except for 1 thing: With Brady on your resume, which got Bill O'Brien his current gig in Houston, if Bill can't eliminate Brock's mistakes & make OZ look competent. He's gonna get fired. You don't think BobMcnair asked Bill if I get you Brock next yr can you win longterm with him? The answer is yes & once he said yes the clock starts ticking. Production is king in the NFL & if you don't deliver wins consistently coaches get the boot. 

[krunk]

31 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Good points on your part krunk. I just think that too many football fans, not you, gave up on Brock too quickly. And, if an owner green lights the Brock move before the season starts, obviously Bob McNair felt like the Texans would never compete for a Championship with what currently existed on their roster at the QB position. 

 

Switching to Savage makes sense temporarily as Houston attempts to win the division, but as a permanent starter moving forward, I'm not sold yet. I'm not claiming Savage being the defacto starter longterm is your position krunk. I just mean that going after Brock means the owner wanted to shake things up & find a field general he felt the Texans did not currently have. 

When you pay a lot of money to somebody that comes with major expectations even if they are unfair as hell.   I don't honestly think Brock is all that bad.  He's not great this year, but this kid is really just a rookie in terms of experience.  People have to expect he'll struggle.  Problem is the money that he is paid comes with "Perform like Andrew Luck" expectations.  And it's even worse when you have a guy behind him that you've been grooming in this offensive system for basically 3 years now.  You see that guy operating your system efficiently in practice every week.  Meanwhile the guy who you paid the big bucks is still feeling his way through the trouble spots and the post season is on the line.  I can see why Obrien did what he did.  They needed a spark and they got one.  Hopefully for Brock Tom doesn't step in and not relinquish the reins.  If he does then there's going to be a problem for B.O.

[southwest1]

16 minutes ago, krunk said:

When you pay a lot of money to somebody that comes with major expectations even if they are unfair as hell.   I don't honestly think Brock is all that bad.  He's not great this year, but this kid is really just a rookie in terms of experience.  People have to expect he'll struggle.  Problem is the money that he is paid comes with "Perform like Andrew Luck" expectations.  And it's even worse when you have a guy behind him that you've been grooming in this offensive system for basically 3 years now.  You see that guy operating your system efficiently in practice every week.  Meanwhile the guy who you paid the big bucks is still feeling his way through the trouble spots and the post season is on the line.  I can see why Obrien did what he did.  They needed a spark and they got one.  Hopefully for Brock Tom doesn't step in and not relinquish the reins.  If he does then there's going to be a problem for B.O.

Yes, expectations are a rhymes with witch no doubt & raising a QBs salary dramatically doesn't magically transform them into a new & improved QB simply because Brock's income bracket changed. Uh huh. The Texans wanted a big splash move. Whether that comes to fruition or not, remains to be seen as you suggest. 

 

Money vs generating wins is a difficult dynamic to navigate in a locker room & if a team seesaws between 2 QBs, you have no direction or consistency as a football team. Eventually, Bill's gonna have to pick a face of the franchise & ride him no matter what come hades or high water. The pressure on O'Brien just jacked up 1000 degrees. 

[dw49]

58 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Why do my Brady comparisons escape you on O'Brien's behalf? It makes perfect sense to me DW49. You act like the Texans bought an expensive toy sight unseen. They didn't & if a HC with a Championship pedigree on his resume can't mold another QB to compete for at least a deep playoff run, then that means Bill O'Brien sucks as a teacher or at least is overrated plain & simple. 

 

You're going to mention RG3 & Brock in the same sentence? Now, that's funny. Has Robert contributed to winning a SB? Nope. Look, I get what you're saying. Some QBs never reach their playoff potential on the field as a starter & coaches can't hold their hand on the field when games really matter. A valid point except for 1 thing: With Brady on your resume, which got Bill O'Brien his current gig in Houston, if Bill can't eliminate Brock's mistakes & make OZ look competent. He's gonna get fired. You don't think BobMcnair asked Bill if I get you Brock next yr can you win longterm with him? The answer is yes & once he said yes the clock starts ticking. Production is king in the NFL & if you don't deliver wins consistently coaches get the boot. 

 

 

We just are seeing 2 different guys and that's OK. Evidently O Brien sees something similar to what I see as he's benched him in favor of Savage. As far as the Obrien , Brady , Oswieler analogy. IMO, Brady would have been great with or without O Brien. And I don't think he gets fired if Oswieler fails. As I said before , there are many QB's that have had the arm talent , size and mobility to succeed and it just doesn't happen. A good mentor certainly helps but I don't think its a guarantee.

[southwest1]

6 hours ago, dw49 said:

IMO, Brady would have been great with or without O Brien. And I don't think he gets fired if Oswieler fails.

It doesn't matter if Brady was great long before Bill O'Brien was named OC in NE. That's irrelevant. What matters to owners & GMs is can Bill duplicate Brady's level of success based on tools of the trade he learned working with Tommy himself? Is that expectation ridiculous? Sure it is, but the expectation of success by association is still there regardless. 

 

The size of your franchise QB's salary matters & trust me owners get miffed when all that money is being wasted on the bench. If Brock fails, there will be consequences in Houston & O'Brien will be gone. Yes, owners like to win but wasted investments antagonize them & eat away at them daily. Don't dismiss that fact so quickly.  

[dw49]

10 hours ago, southwest1 said:

It doesn't matter if Brady was great long before Bill O'Brien was named OC in NE. That's irrelevant. What matters to owners & GMs is can Bill duplicate Brady's level of success based on tools of the trade he learned working with Tommy himself? Is that expectation ridiculous? Sure it is, but the expectation of success by association is still there regardless. 

 

The size of your franchise QB's salary matters & trust me owners get miffed when all that money is being wasted on the bench. If Brock fails, there will be consequences in Houston & O'Brien will be gone. Yes, owners like to win but wasted investments antagonize them & eat away at them daily. Don't dismiss that fact so quickly.  

 

 

None of what you have said amounts to a hill of beans IMO.. no disrespect intended.. ..just how view it . About a month ago , I started a thread where I stated in Oswieler's play didn't improve , Houston would be in a situation where they would be forced to take a look at Savage. Then I went on to point out that all of his 2017 salary was guaranteed . That said , I concluded that they could have a 19 million $ QB sitting the bench in 2017. Not too many agreed with me . Fact is it happened even before I predicted it would. So let's see just how B. O. career with Houston goes ?

 

[Synthetic]

 

Brock is still 2-0 against the Colts....Let that sink in while all of you sit there and play the circle wagon bashing him. He beat the Colts twice, and despite playing mediocre this year, his team is in the playoffs. Meanwhile, the highest paid QB in the league, goes a second year in a row missing the playoffs. 

 

The days of this team getting 6 easy wins from a horrible division are over. Houston has surpassed the Colts, and if I were a Colts fan right now, I'd be worried to death about Tennessee. They have a quarterback who could easily surpass Luck. Mariota is doing a hell of a job and with far lesser talent than Luck has had. The Titans are stacked with draft picks waiting and so far, so good, they've turned their team around pretty quickly. In the future, Tennessee is going to make it tough on both Indy and Houston. 

[southwest1]

On December 23, 2016 at 8:50 AM, dw49 said:

 

 

None of what you have said amounts to a hill of beans IMO.. no disrespect intended.. ..just how view it . About a month ago , I started a thread where I stated in Oswieler's play didn't improve , Houston would be in a situation where they would be forced to take a look at Savage. Then I went on to point out that all of his 2017 salary was guaranteed . That said , I concluded that they could have a 19 million $ QB sitting the bench in 2017. Not too many agreed with me . Fact is it happened even before I predicted it would. So let's see just how B. O. career with Houston goes ?

 

It's cool DW49. I don't take any issue with anything you said. I just can't figure out why ownership in Houston & Bill went after Brock then if O'Brien was satisfied with Savage's progression 3 yrs in the same system? I know it was stated on air via Cris Collinsworth I think that Tom had a elbow problem, but can't medical personnel on staff give him a pain numbing shot to dull his discomfort? 

 

If Bill & his owner were happy with Savage, why even make a play for Osweiler at all? The whole move was just bizarre. It's like trading in a girlfriend because the new one is taller & has softer hair. 

[southwest1]

1 hour ago, Synthetic said:

 

Brock is still 2-0 against the Colts....Let that sink in while all of you sit there and play the circle wagon bashing him. He beat the Colts twice, and despite playing mediocre this year, his team is in the playoffs. Meanwhile, the highest paid QB in the league, goes a second year in a row missing the playoffs. 

 

The days of this team getting 6 easy wins from a horrible division are over. Houston has surpassed the Colts, and if I were a Colts fan right now, I'd be worried to death about Tennessee. They have a quarterback who could easily surpass Luck. Mariota is doing a hell of a job and with far lesser talent than Luck has had. The Titans are stacked with draft picks waiting and so far, so good, they've turned their team around pretty quickly. In the future, Tennessee is going to make it tough on both Indy and Houston. 

Tennessee does scare the bejesus out of me too man. I can't lie Bogie. Mariota is legit & if Savage is just good not even great; INDY has a tough climb uphill now. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, Synthetic said:

 

Brock is still 2-0 against the Colts....Let that sink in while all of you sit there and play the circle wagon bashing him. He beat the Colts twice, and despite playing mediocre this year, his team is in the playoffs. Meanwhile, the highest paid QB in the league, goes a second year in a row missing the playoffs. 

 

The days of this team getting 6 easy wins from a horrible division are over. Houston has surpassed the Colts, and if I were a Colts fan right now, I'd be worried to death about Tennessee. They have a quarterback who could easily surpass Luck. Mariota is doing a hell of a job and with far lesser talent than Luck has had. The Titans are stacked with draft picks waiting and so far, so good, they've turned their team around pretty quickly. In the future, Tennessee is going to make it tough on both Indy and Houston. 

I look at Houston and they still don't really scare me, yes they beat us twice but barely and got lucky the 1st time, that 2nd game if we convert a 4th and 1 we probably win as well. It's not like they blew us out. Brock Osweiler stinks just admit it. Savage is the guy moving forward which is better for them actually. We have beat Tennessee 9 times in a row and that Mariota injury is pretty serious from what I have been hearing. He wont be healthy for at least 4 or 5 months is the word. Colts definitely have problems but we are way under the Salary Cap and get a chance to improve our Defense through the Draft. There really isn't any difference between us and Houston except we have a Good QB and that is huge for the future. Houston just won 3 or 4 close games that they could've easily lost and we lost 3 or 4 close games that we could've easily won, just keeping it real. If Houston is the real deal lets see them make the AFC Title Game like the Colts did in 2014. I would bet the house they don't.

[runthepost]

5 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I look at Houston and they still don't really scare me, yes they beat us twice but barely and got lucky the 1st time, that 2nd game if we convert a 4th and 1 we probably win as well. It's not like they blew us out. Brock Osweiler stinks just admit it. Savage is the guy moving forward which is better for them actually. We have beat Tennessee 9 times in a row and that Mariota injury is pretty serious from what I have been hearing. He wont be healthy for at least 4 or 5 months is the word. Colts definitely have problems but we are way under the Salary Cap and get a chance to improve our Defense through the Draft. There really isn't any difference between us and Houston except we have a Good QB and that is huge for the future. Houston just won 3 or 4 close games that they could've easily lost and we lost 3 or 4 close games that we could've easily won, just keeping it real. If Houston is the real deal lets see them make the AFC Title Game like the Colts did in 2014. I would bet the house they don't.

Houston also gets the best player in the league back next year with an improved clowney. Talent wise they are better and we have the better qb. Now the Titans to be honest do scare me because of that top 5 draft pick and cap space. They improved the secondary and draft a good receiver then we have an issue ( Mike Williams or Marlon Humphrey). Another note just because we won 9 times in a row against Tennessee that could end soon. Like the streak we had against Houston at LOS. We lost 2 in a row at home and got swept for the first time

[dw49]

11 hours ago, southwest1 said:

It's cool DW49. I don't take any issue with anything you said. I just can't figure out why ownership in Houston & Bill went after Brock then if O'Brien was satisfied with Savage's progression 3 yrs in the same system? I know it was stated on air via Cris Collinsworth I think that Tom had a elbow problem, but can't medical personnel on staff give him a pain numbing shot to dull his discomfort? 

 

If Bill & his owner were happy with Savage, why even make a play for Osweiler at all? The whole move was just bizarre. It's like trading in a girlfriend because the new one is taller & has softer hair. 

 

 

Hard to say how much O'Brien thought of Savage. Man ...he for sure didn't let him do much in that Cinn. game did he ? I think bottom line might be that Brock was just so bad in that Jack game that O Brien pretty much had to pull the plug ? Oswieler is still athletic and can make all the throws. My guess is he doesn't make it in Houston and maybe morphs into a middle of the road guy somewhere else in 2018. I think he's just too messed up in Houston now Don't forget he was benched last year also...