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Le'Raven Clark Update


TKnight24
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I'm trying to understand what the problem is with taking your time to develop a guy? Who are we to tell them what to do with the player they drafted. This ain't Mcdonalds! We all know this guy wasn't playing over Reitz, they were talking about Good playing tackle at the time and Haeg came out of a pro style offense so that's about 3 guys the team can turn to to play tackle. What need do we have to rush the guy? Every teams draft has somebody that you can say "such and such was available" "they should have taken him".

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Like it or not, a lot of offensive lineman from here on out are going to be considered projects. The state and style of the college game just doesnt translate as well as it used to. The spread systems are great for colleges to help even the playing field but it has been the death of NFL ready linemen.

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Its already been discussed ad nauseum that young players coming out of these college spread systems aren't being taught the game from the ground up and its causing bad line play. So now Grigson and co are stupid for wanting to do it the right way and develop the kid? Humphries was a first rounder and Arians Literally said they almost had to start from square one to get him ready to play on this level. Now Grigsin is stupid for not throwing Clark to the Wolves? No need to.

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4 minutes ago, krunk said:

Its already been discussed ad nauseum that young players coming out of these college spread systems aren't being taught the game from the ground up and its causing bad line play. So now Grigson and co are stupid for wanting to do it the right way and develop the kid? Humphries was a first rounder and Arians Literally said they almost had to start from square one to get him ready to play on this level. Now Grigsin is stupid for not throwing him to the Wolves? No need to.

^this^--  I am glad they took the two years to develop Doyle.

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7 minutes ago, krunk said:

Its already been discussed ad nauseum that young players coming out of these college spread systems aren't being taught the game from the ground up and its causing bad line play. So now Grigson and co are stupid for wanting to do it the right way and develop the kid? Humphries was a first rounder and Arians Literally said they almost had to start from square one to get him ready to play on this level. Now Grigsin is stupid for not throwing him to the Wolves? No need to.

It don't fit into the narrative that Grigson is stupid or dumb. Anything that can be thought of is used.

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Now the only thing I don't understand is how a guy like Denzelle Good who I like quite a bit comes in from Mars Hill which is damn near high school football and doesnt need to red shirt and learn the game over. Steps right in playing tackle at a decent level, playing guard at a decent to pretty good level in year 2, but you have guys like Humphries and Clark who played more than one season at major college football programs, major college coaches and they need to be sat down and taught the game from the ground up. That puzzles me, but I guess every case is not the same.

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I think it's too early to call Clark a bust. He's definitely a project, but the Colts and fans knew that going in. 

 

Now, I'm not saying he won't be a bust, but he still deserves the benefit of the doubt. Someone brought up Humphries for the Cardinals--which is a great point, who didn't even play in a game last season. 

 

If it's this time next season, and Clark is still frequently a healthy scratch, then I'll be really worried but I think a player deserves at least more than a season to prove they aren't a bust. 

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No final decision on whether Clark is a bust or not should be made at least he gets his shot and is benched for bad play and made a backup or let go. I wasn't in support of the decision to draft Clark by any stretch of the imagination at least as high as we drafted him. However you have to give the kid a chance to prove you right on your original thoughts on him or wrong. He isn't some 5+ year vet whos developed physically and mentally but still remains a bad player. He is a rookie who has 1 snap to his credit. When/If they do finally get him out on the field more then it is fair to make opinions based on a year to year basis or game to game but not overall generalizations right off the bat

 

I think its one thing to think the kid will be a future bust based on what was on tape from college and his production according to PFF. I get not liking the pick as well. But I think its unfair to the kid to call him a bust not even more than 1 snap into his career. I hope he proves me wrong because that benefits the team. Do I expect it? No, But I hope I'm wrong

 

 

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i dont care to quote anyone's post, but didnt KC already have a pretty stellar defense before they drafted Poe?  pretty sure lions d had a pretty good d line when they drafted ansah.  thats kinda what i would call a luxury pick of sorts while they waited for him to develope.  i dont see where we have had any of that kind of opportunity for the past 4 drafts to be drafting they way we have.  

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At what point has the Cardinals line been elite? Yet they took a project lineman in the first round. Stop acting like we are setting precedent here. There's no one set way to do things. If the guy is ready next year then all the bust talk stops and they'll laud Grigs for the pick like they weren't on here making all these silly and stupid comments. That's the irony behind this whole thing. Who made up this fake law that says every third rounder or higher must play immediately or its dumb? You mostly hear fans saying this kind of stuff. Teams however seem to operate differently but of course the fan knows better. The theme was "Protect 12". Yet you have people crying about a lineman with upside being selected. I saw enough from Clark to know he should be okay with some training. If anything id be more angry about the Morrison pick. I doubt hes on this team long and its very likely he'd have been available in the 6th or 7th round I feel. I think we could have done better here.

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9 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

shouldn't have drafted a redshirt type of guy in round 3 when there was obvious need at other positions now

At the draft everyone was calling for an OL, we get one, who we HAVEN'T even seen actually play besides pre-season, and now you want him gone. Some people here make no sense

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36 minutes ago, AndyLuck said:

At the draft everyone was calling for an OL, we get one, who we HAVEN'T even seen actually play besides pre-season, and now you want him gone. Some people here make no sense

See that's the mistake some people wanted rookies who were all-pro linemen right out of the gate because there is no chance a player can develop and get better and if they aren't all-pro when they walk in the door they aren't worth keeping. 

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1 hour ago, coltsdan said:

i dont care to quote anyone's post, but didnt KC already have a pretty stellar defense before they drafted Poe?  pretty sure lions d had a pretty good d line when they drafted ansah.  thats kinda what i would call a luxury pick of sorts while they waited for him to develope.  i dont see where we have had any of that kind of opportunity for the past 4 drafts to be drafting they way we have.  

The Lions had good dts, but we're sitting with Devin Taylor and Willie Young as their DEs. Not exactly a deep group of superstars. 

The Chiefs were running Jerrell Rowe and Anthony Toribio at NT when they took Poe. Again they had good players on the line, but not at the position they drafted. 

I'm not sure either of those can be considered luxury picks. Both were definite positions of need that they decided to roll the dice on.

 

There are no sure things when you draft. I'm willing to give Clark a year to get it figured out. The way the spread system is, he is basically a clean slate with the size and speed to be something special. IF (and this is my biggest issue, as my confidence in our coaches isn't that high) the coaching staff are able to get through to him, he will be making those stupid NFL.com redo drafts as a first round pick in a couple years. 

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For some players, all of a sudden, the bell rings or the light lights and they get it. For others not so much. One thing is for sure, and that's quality tackles are a real commodity. Its worth some time to find one. Give me the athletic ability combined with a strong work ethic every time. I bet L'Raven ends up being pretty good.

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I sure hope so.  I'm not one of these fans that thinks just because a guy hasn't played much or done much 9 games into his rookie season then he's a bust.  Some guys it takes time and they end up good, others come in right away more prepared.  Some guys have to go to other teams and systems for it to work out.  I'm willing to give this guy some time to figure out if he can play or not.  If we get to the end of year 2 and the light still isn't coming on then perhaps it's time to go to the next "house".  We will see.

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2 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

When that project has the potential and measurables to be an elite tackle in this league I disagree.

It really is bad drafting practice to do it with a team like ours with so many holes we have. If your the Patriots or somebody then you can take a gamble like that but their was better players available. Hopefully at some point Clark is able to get on the field at RT or Haeg locks it down at some point

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17 hours ago, MacDee1975 said:

Another wasted early round pick for Grigson:

 

Le'Raven Clark

Bjorn Werner

Hugh Thornton

1st Rounder that was traded for Trent Richardson

Phillip Dorsett

D'Joun Smith

 

No wonder we suck.....missing on that many early draft picks that you need to hit on in order to be any good.

 

While I agree with you on the other guys and your overall idea, It's a bit too early to throw Clark in with that bunch. I'm concerned that Haeg is already better than him but it's understandable. He's really raw which is why he fell to the third round. Give him another season and a half. If he's not starting by week 3 then we can call him a wasted pick.

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BB is the number 1 risk taker in the league.  He absolutely would do something like this.  Then he would discard them if they can't play.  We will too.

 

Luck and Manning have made it difficult to get high draft picks because they keep winning games.  We take projects because we will never get picks 1-5 until Luck retires anyway.   Especially a prototypical LT.

 

 

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My hope is that Philbin stays (if Pagano and Grigson stay) for a while and brings a real continuity to our line.  We become known for our lines work.  Luck is having a great season and the line is getting better.  We might have a 10000 yard rusher and an MVP candidate QB at seasons end.  We just need our defense to be better.

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7 hours ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

The Lions had good dts, but we're sitting with Devin Taylor and Willie Young as their DEs. Not exactly a deep group of superstars. 

The Chiefs were running Jerrell Rowe and Anthony Toribio at NT when they took Poe. Again they had good players on the line, but not at the position they drafted. 

I'm not sure either of those can be considered luxury picks. Both were definite positions of need that they decided to roll the dice on.

 

There are no sure things when you draft. I'm willing to give Clark a year to get it figured out. The way the spread system is, he is basically a clean slate with the size and speed to be something special. IF (and this is my biggest issue, as my confidence in our coaches isn't that high) the coaching staff are able to get through to him, he will be making those stupid NFL.com redo drafts as a first round pick in a couple years. 

There may be no sure thing in the draft, but there are safe picks and NFL ready picks, we need early round picks that can make a contribution. We aren't in the position to gamble on a guy who may be elite down the road but could also yet be another high round bust. Especially when we have a history of high round busts and even more especially when we have a swiss cheese offensive line to begin with. This was a bad decision. I'm against drafting RB's high, but I'd rather take a 3rd round rb there just because of the high success rate in the 3rd at that position and our need there.

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1 hour ago, Jared Cisneros said:

There may be no sure thing in the draft, but there are safe picks and NFL ready picks, we need early round picks that can make a contribution. We aren't in the position to gamble on a guy who may be elite down the road but could also yet be another high round bust. Especially when we have a history of high round busts and even more especially when we have a swiss cheese offensive line to begin with. This was a bad decision. I'm against drafting RB's high, but I'd rather take a 3rd round rb there just because of the high success rate in the 3rd at that position and our need there.

 

This is spot on.

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11 hours ago, MacDee1975 said:

 

If you're plan is to redshirt a draft position that should produce an immediate contributor.....your plan is flawed.

 

I think this represents a trend that will get to the entire league if it has not already.

 

First off, they will be playing football past this year.  So if Clark does turn into the player they expect him to be, is one redshirt season that big a deal.  I think any reasonable answer is no.

 

But to my original point.  The college game is getting miles and miles away from how it is played at the NFL level.  There is really nothing like the spread offense that Clark came from at Texas Tech.  But Clark has measureables that warrant a high draft choice.  I think the league will start to put a higher premium on those attributes than what they actually see on tape because of how different the college game is.  The draft is pure projection anyway and getting to be more so these days.

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This thread illustrates the biggest difference between the way fans think and the way a GM HAS to think.  Fans think of the current year only.  GMs have to think and draft 3-5 years in the future.

 

Fans think a 3rd round pick not playing his rookie season is a wasted draft pick, GM looks at spending middle draft pick and then training that player for a year to potentially lock down a position for the next 10 years  is a good move.  And if it works out then it is an excellent move.

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10 hours ago, AndyLuck said:

At the draft everyone was calling for an OL, we get one, who we HAVEN'T even seen actually play besides pre-season, and now you want him gone. Some people here make no sense

Sure it does.  There were other options for Oline. Why draft a project ?

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Take the prospect that in 3 years is going to be the best player. Yeah, role players who can contribute are helpful, but this is still a star driven league. Colts need to assemble most talent, whether they have the luxury or not--assuming they actually play a position of need like offensive tackle clearly still is. 

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1 hour ago, MacDee1975 said:

Got it.  Draft "projects" like Clark in the third round, but immediate contributors who play the same position in Haeg in the 5th round.  Makes a ton of sense. No wonder the Colts are such a talented football team, as evidenced by their stellar record of 4-5.

A 4-5 record is not definitive proof of a lack of talent.  There's all kind of teams out there with 4-5 to 5-4 records or worse including the entire AFC North,  All of the AFC East except for New England,  And all of the AFC South.   Surely there's a team or two in there you think that has more talent so what's the excuse?

 

I think most of us know that Haeg wasn't drafted to be an immediate starter.  He was drafted to be the Swing Tackle/Guard which is a backup.  Turns out when he actually played we found out he had more to offer than what was expected.  "Project" doesn't mean you can't play.  Stop acting like we drafted a Swoope or Adongo like player who needs to be taught football because he's never played before.  This is not even a Ziggy Ansah type of deal because Clark has played plenty of football. There's no record of us drafting "projects" which I think is a problem if done repetitively.   We drafted a bit of a "project", but not a huge project.  Swoope and Adongo are what you would call Huge Projects.  Clark is not that.   Most teams would honestly prefer to not have to throw a young tackle to the wolves if they can help it.   Grigson and Pagano in fact have never been ones to prefer doing that.   

3 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

Sure it does.  There were other options for Oline. Why draft a project ?

Tell us specifically who that is at the tackle position and name the team that drafted them.   Tell us how they are doing?

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Stop acting like one 3rd round draft pick drafted at another position would have magically been the game changer we need to have a better record than 4-5.  There's a whole big bucket list of reasons the record is what it is outside of talent.  The other reasons seem to escape the tongues of some our great forum members here and they stay stuck on one issue for some reason or the other.  If you look at some of these games we've barely lost they were due to fundamental stuff like tackling, turnovers,  bad in game adjustments, bad game plan,  major injuries.  That has more to do with people doing there jobs better.

 

Personally if I had to redo the draft I would have selected somebody else other than Morrison.   That pick right there wasn't the best use of resources to me, but whoever it would have been that we would have chosen outside of him still wouldn't be of any great impact this year to turn us into a 7-2 football team.

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1 minute ago, krunk said:

Stop acting like one 3rd round draft pick drafted at another position would have magically been the game changer we need to have a better record than 4-5.  There's a whole big bucket list of reasons the record is what it is outside of talent.  The other reasons seem to escape the tongues of some our great forum members here and they stay stuck on one issue for some reason or the other.

 

Personally if I had to redo the draft I would have selected somebody else other than Morrison.   That pick right there wasn't the best use of resources to me, but whoever it wouldn't have been that we would have chosen outside of him still wouldn't be of any great impact this year to turn us into a 7-2 football team. 

 

Nope, but, as my original comment stated, 6 better draft picks than the ones spent on these guys sure would've resulted in game changers and a division championship this season:  Werner, Thornton, Clark, Dorsett, Trent Richardson trade, DJoun Smith.

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4 minutes ago, MacDee1975 said:

 

Nope, but, as my original comment stated, 6 better draft picks than the ones spent on these guys sure would've resulted in game changers and a division championship this season:  Werner, Thornton, Clark, Dorsett, Trent Richardson trade, DJoun Smith.

And whose team doesn't have this type of stuff going on?  And again it's nice of you to list players who've barely played on your list.   Blaming the baby for not being able to walk at 8 months.   Cherry picking Djoun Smith from a draft that yielded a number of players who are currently playing.  Where's the credit for that.   Find me somebodies draft that doesn't have picks that didn't work out. 

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2 minutes ago, MacDee1975 said:

 

Nope, but, as my original comment stated, 6 better draft picks than the ones spent on these guys sure would've resulted in game changers and a division championship this season:  Werner, Thornton, Clark, Dorsett, Trent Richardson trade, DJoun Smith.

There's a whole lot more that has to do with winning than that and you know that.

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1 hour ago, krunk said:

A 4-5 record is not definitive proof of a lack of talent.  There's all kind of teams out there with 4-5 to 5-4 records or worse including the entire AFC North,  All of the AFC East except for New England,  And all of the AFC South.   Surely there's a team or two in there you think that has more talent so what's the excuse?

 

I think most of us know that Haeg wasn't drafted to be an immediate starter.  He was drafted to be the Swing Tackle/Guard which is a backup.  Turns out when he actually played we found out he had more to offer than what was expected.  "Project" doesn't mean you can't play.  Stop acting like we drafted a Swoope or Adongo like player who needs to be taught football because he's never played before.  This is not even a Ziggy Ansah type of deal because Clark has played plenty of football. There's no record of us drafting "projects" which I think is a problem if done repetitively.   We drafted a bit of a "project", but not a huge project.  Swoope and Adongo are what you would call Huge Projects.  Clark is not that.   Most teams would honestly prefer to not have to throw a young tackle to the wolves if they can help it.   Grigson and Pagano in fact have never been ones to prefer doing that.   

Tell us specifically who that is at the tackle position and name the team that drafted them.   Tell us how they are doing?

 

Joe Haeg Indianapolis Colts   Starting RG 

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20 hours ago, BOTT said:

If Grigson isn't the worst, he is in the discussion.

 

I am not a big Grigson fan, trust me.

 

However, he took the worst (this isn't even a discussion, the Colts were such a joke when he took over) team in the league which was full of players that don't fit the model of what the new coaching staff was planning to build.

 

In spite of that, he had a very, very good draft in his first year (sure, we got "Luck"y having the first pick -- but that was mainly a product of how awful the team was) and built a 2 win team into an 11 win team.  Won 11 games for the next 2 years and advanced a round further in the playoffs each time.  That is impressive.

 

Sure, he has made some bonehead moves.... but for the majority of the time, his logic has been pretty sound.  His 2nd year, Bjoern Werner was a bust of a first round pick.... but used the 2nd round pick on Vontae (having a top 10 NFL CB from a 2nd round pick is a steal), and then drafted 2 OL -- neither of them have been able to stay healthy (that is not Grigson's fault - had either or both of those guys worked out, our OL would not be in the shape it is now). 

 

I could go on, but don't have the time.... moral of the story is, sure Grigs has made some bad decisions, but he has also made some excellent decisions.  He's signed some old FA's, but guess what? They were (with exception of Landry over Bethea) better than what we had on the roster Grigs was dealt with.  The man has never had a losing season, and in 3 of 4 years he's been here this team has been in the NFL Playoffs (not an easy thing to accomplish when inheriting a load of garbage, not an easy thing to accomplish for anyone, really -- winning games in the NFL is not easy.... oh, and the 1 year the team didn't make the playoffs, we were playing without our franchise QB for half the season).

 

I think we could argue that there is 32 teams in the NFL, only 12 a year make the playoffs -- for Grigs first 3 years, there were 20 teams who did not do what we did in terms of making the playoffs -- meaning there might just be 20 NFL GM's on teams we don't follow as closely who have fans that think there GM is worse than Grigs.

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3 hours ago, krunk said:

Was he drafted to be a starter?

 

No he was drafted as camp fodder.   What the hell difference does it make?   Clark isn't going to be ready this year and who knows if he'll develop at all.  At least Haeg came from a system that could translate to the NFL.   What good was it to use a 3rd round pick on a guy that can't get into the lineup?  If it takes him a year to develop why not just draft someone next year.  They will both be ready at the same time.

 

I saw saw some draft boards that had Haeg rated ahead of Clark to begin with 

 

3rd round  pick  should not be a year away in development . 

 

All i I know is he better be the next coming of Tarek Glenn to give him this much time to develop 

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