Colts workout Nate Irving

[JPFolks]

9 hours ago, DougDew said:

We have all read articles by Colts beat writers.  I never read one where they stated that Grigson bullied Pagano into starting one player over another.  Even talking to the players, even Shipley himself, couldn't ever confirm that.  Its always been innuendo.

You don't know the difference between "off the record" and news stories.  Most of what these guys are told can't be printed because people would like to keep their jobs.  Who is going to "out" by name in an article, the current GM who wields power directly over them? For that matter, the press in general is handcuffed because reporters have to be credentialed by the Colts management to even have access.  So that keeps them necessarily under the thumb of saying only what someone inside the Colts with plenty of power wants them to say or "leak." Government works the same, which is why corruption is so rampant across all parties.  When you control the press, you can get away with nearly anything.  

 

Off the record is where most information is passed around.  That is where what you call "innuendo" is usually created, especially when it is persistent.  That means someone is either leaking info (usually management trying to control the narrative in a favorable way) or exposing/whistle blowing info (usually people least in power such as labor, low level management or even peripheral people who depend on the support of those in power and thus can't share info on the record).   But just as we see at the highest levels of politics, law enforcement, corporations etc. the stories often get out.  But sadly, reporters can't publish this stuff even with multiple (or in this case over a dozen) off the record sources saying the same thing.  

 

It's not always perfect in the cases of agenda's clashing with the truth, but when the off the record info confirms what we can clearly see with our eyes happening for all to see, it's usually pretty solid.   Those weaker "project" players of Grigson's clearly have played when they weren't really good enough to do so.  Better players (not necessarily GREAT players, just clearly better than those project players) often are cast aside.  You mentioned Shipley, so tell me, if the rumors are 100% true, how could he possibly benefit from confirming them?  Answer, it would likely have ended his career.  Instead, he moved on to another team without the bogus and frankly immature agenda's of playing favorite project players over more talented alternatives.   It's the old "when it looks like a duck" analogy.  The "off the record" comments confirm what seems apparent but is being denied (or in this case, ignored, because remember, Pagano would not even comment or address direct questions by the media about Shipley versus Harrison.  So to his credit, Pagano didn't lie, he simply wouldn't answer).   I am just fortunate that I know someone in the media who knows players, staff and management people personally and over nearly 2 decades so I know he hears from these people directly.  It's not the case of some hack making stories up.   Believe what you want.  Join the Grigson apologists, we sure have enough of them.  What is one more.  

[DougDew]

12 hours ago, JPFolks said:

You don't know the difference between "off the record" and news stories.  Most of what these guys are told can't be printed because people would like to keep their jobs.  Who is going to "out" by name in an article, the current GM who wields power directly over them? For that matter, the press in general is handcuffed because reporters have to be credentialed by the Colts management to even have access.  So that keeps them necessarily under the thumb of saying only what someone inside the Colts with plenty of power wants them to say or "leak." Government works the same, which is why corruption is so rampant across all parties.  When you control the press, you can get away with nearly anything.  

 

Off the record is where most information is passed around.  That is where what you call "innuendo" is usually created, especially when it is persistent.  That means someone is either leaking info (usually management trying to control the narrative in a favorable way) or exposing/whistle blowing info (usually people least in power such as labor, low level management or even peripheral people who depend on the support of those in power and thus can't share info on the record).   But just as we see at the highest levels of politics, law enforcement, corporations etc. the stories often get out.  But sadly, reporters can't publish this stuff even with multiple (or in this case over a dozen) off the record sources saying the same thing.  

 

It's not always perfect in the cases of agenda's clashing with the truth, but when the off the record info confirms what we can clearly see with our eyes happening for all to see, it's usually pretty solid.   Those weaker "project" players of Grigson's clearly have played when they weren't really good enough to do so.  Better players (not necessarily GREAT players, just clearly better than those project players) often are cast aside.  You mentioned Shipley, so tell me, if the rumors are 100% true, how could he possibly benefit from confirming them?  Answer, it would likely have ended his career.  Instead, he moved on to another team without the bogus and frankly immature agenda's of playing favorite project players over more talented alternatives.   It's the old "when it looks like a duck" analogy.  The "off the record" comments confirm what seems apparent but is being denied (or in this case, ignored, because remember, Pagano would not even comment or address direct questions by the media about Shipley versus Harrison.  So to his credit, Pagano didn't lie, he simply wouldn't answer).   I am just fortunate that I know someone in the media who knows players, staff and management people personally and over nearly 2 decades so I know he hears from these people directly.  It's not the case of some hack making stories up.   Believe what you want.  Join the Grigson apologists, we sure have enough of them.  What is one more.  

Its not uncommon to have a working theory that corruption and narcissism is how people in power get to be in power, and look look for anything that supports that theory.   

 

The Grigson bullying theory started with Satele over Shipley, because Satele was Grigson's FA signing.  Then after he waived Satele and signed Harrison, theorists say Harrison started over Shipley because Harrison was Grigson's project.  Apparently, that theory is now being extended to Good over Haeg and McNary over Irving because Grigson continues to pull Pagano's strings, and does so because some players are projects and some aren't.

 

Theorists would say that the decisions about who to sign, release, or draft are not driven by how to make the team better but is driven by power, ego, and narcissism.

 

I'm not an apologist for anyone or their bad football decisions.  I am an attacker of opinions formed by something other than objectivity and common sense, IMO, which bleeds into many of the comments over the years about Grigson.  

 

 

 

 

[crazycolt1]

You might know this would just turn into another bash Grigson thread.

[DougDew]

24 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You might know this would just turn into another bash Grigson thread.

And in order to justify the bashing, we have to downshift into talking about players that everybody knows are marginally capable of playing in the NFL, as was the center position over the years and is the RG position at the moment.  Every thread has to be spun into how a man in power is using the Colts roster as a means to pad his ego, not about the realities of finding 22 players who are starting caliber.

[iamjustis]

Colts don't like to keep good Defensive players. 

 

Jerry Hughes-Bills-DE/LB

J. Freeman -Bears-LB

A. Bethia -49ers-SS

J. Powers-AZ-CB

 

They like the BAD/Project players

 

P. Robinson-CB

S. Moore-LB

J. McNary_LB

G. Toler-CB

Lowery-SS

 

[Buck Showalter]

1 hour ago, iamjustis said:

Colts don't like to keep good Defensive players. 

 

Jerry Hughes-Bills-DE/LB

J. Freeman -Bears-LB

A. Bethia -49ers-SS

J. Powers-AZ-CB

 

They like the BAD/Project players

 

P. Robinson-CB

S. Moore-LB

J. McNary_LB

G. Toler-CB

Lowery-SS

 

Robinson, Moore, McNary, Toler, & Lowery may have left a lot to be desired as far as their play with the Colts, that is true. However, in all fairness, Hughes for what ever reason either was a bad scheme fit, or just didn't mesh well during his time in Indy & didn't really turn anything on until the trade. Bethea received ALOT of criticism in his last year as a Colt, & Powers also received criticism, as he was very injury prone during his stint as a Colt. 

So out of the provided list letting Freeman walk is really the only move that strongly supports your critique here...

 

As far as the project players you've mentioned, sure they've left something to be desired, but In almost each of the mentioned players, each of their perspective positions needed addressing. So, with many holes to address on the team, you have to do some creative, bargain shopping...

 

Really between some poor drafts from the last Polian years & now Grigsons draft blunders, you see & have the struggling state the team is in currently, with draft issues affecting the team much more so than letting a few FA's walk...

[SilentHill]

So I'm guessing we didn't sign Nate, huh

[krunk]

Things don't always happen immediately.  Takes them a couple days sometimes.

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, DougDew said:

And in order to justify the bashing, we have to downshift into talking about players that everybody knows are marginally capable of playing in the NFL, as was the center position over the years and is the RG position at the moment.  Every thread has to be spun into how a man in power is using the Colts roster as a means to pad his ego, not about the realities of finding 22 players who are starting caliber.

Ego?? You may have an opinion of Grigson being good, bad or in between but ego has zero to do with it.

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Ego?? You may have an opinion of Grigson being good, bad or in between but ego has zero to do with it.

I think you misread my comments.  I think Grigson, like any GM, is making decisions to try to benefit the Colts, although they may not always be the best decisions or work out in the end.  Critics seem to think he's making decisions to protect or benefit his ego.

 

But the thread has been derailed long enough.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

I think you misread my comments.  I think Grigson, like any GM, is making decisions to try to benefit the Colts, although they may not always be the best decisions or work out in the end.  Critics seem to think he's making decisions to protect or benefit his ego.

 

But the thread has been derailed long enough.

Yes, you are correct. My bad. The whole thread was giving me a head ache...........

[JPFolks]

10 hours ago, DougDew said:

Its not uncommon to have a working theory that corruption and narcissism is how people in power get to be in power, and look look for anything that supports that theory.   

 

The Grigson bullying theory started with Satele over Shipley, because Satele was Grigson's FA signing.  Then after he waived Satele and signed Harrison, theorists say Harrison started over Shipley because Harrison was Grigson's project.  Apparently, that theory is now being extended to Good over Haeg and McNary over Irving because Grigson continues to pull Pagano's strings, and does so because some players are projects and some aren't.

 

Theorists would say that the decisions about who to sign, release, or draft are not driven by how to make the team better but is driven by power, ego, and narcissism.

 

I'm not an apologist for anyone or their bad football decisions.  I am an attacker of opinions formed by something other than objectivity and common sense, IMO, which bleeds into many of the comments over the years about Grigson.  

 

 

 

 

You said a lot, but I don't see a conclusion? So, based on nothing at all (i.e. no direct or indirect knowledge behind the scenes to support your opinion) you just choose to think that Grigson isn't forcing these bad decisions on anyone, it is just a coincidence that his pet projects are bad players, playing in front of slightly better players to try and make him look good, or at the least, to honor his favoritism.  It seems then, you're saying that since it is not Grigson, that these players EARNED their playing position by being better than the guys they replaced even though to the majority of people watching, it seems clear they are not.  McNary has been called out by fans and analysts both as being the worst starting LB in the league.  If you don't believe the above (that the best players play, period), then you must believe the "off the record" comments.   

[oldunclemark]

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 7:27 PM, csmopar said:

Maybe they wanna make sure he's in shape and healthy?

exactly....that at have been why he was let go...we wouldn't know

[oldunclemark]

5 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

exactly....that may have been why he was let go...we wouldn't know