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Jerry Hughes


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The issue people can/could have on Hughes isnt Hughes himself. He's irrelevant, just like Brown. The issue is, why waste a #1 on a backup?

Do you remember the playoff game against San Diego where Freeney was out with a hurt foot and Philip Rivers jacked his knee up?

And their backup comes in, has days to throw and shreds our defense like Dan Marino in the regular season.

That's why they spent a first round pick on a defensive end.

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Do you remember the playoff game against San Diego where Freeney was out with a hurt foot and Philip Rivers jacked his knee up?

And their backup comes in, has days to throw and shreds our defense like Dan Marino in the regular season.

That's why they spent a first round pick on a defensive end.

I do. Thing is, you need something else then Frathis on D :P

I never said losing either was a good thing. I'm simply saying, having both plus a 1st rounder DT (or any competent DTs) would be much better than having Frathis plus 2 scrubs DTs and a 1st rounder DE waiting on the bench, in case Frathis gets injured.

Thats all I'm saying.

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Do you remember the playoff game against San Diego where Freeney was out with a hurt foot and Philip Rivers jacked his knee up?

And their backup comes in, has days to throw and shreds our defense like Dan Marino in the regular season.

That's why they spent a first round pick on a defensive end.

No need to even go back that far, try the recent Superbowl ... my mom could've been Superbowl MVP with zero pass rush, ten minutes to throw and our corners playing 50 yards off their receivers on 3rd and inches.

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Dont worry, we're not getting Harris from 05-06 :P

I was merely naming dominant Ds and what all have in common: good to dominant DTs.

I'm hoping we're getting the Harris of that time. Dear god, Freeney and Mathis' sacks and hurries would increase by at least 100%!

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I'm hoping we're getting the Harris of that time. Dear god, Freeney and Mathis' sacks and hurries would increase by at least 100%!

What you can do then is this:

1) fire up your PS3 or XBox 360

2) Insert Madden

3) Trade Harris to Colts

4) Edit his ratings, making him a 95 ovr or so (pass rushing DT with strenght) to reflect his 05-06 form

There you have it, as close as it'll get :P

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I do. Thing is, you need something else then Frathis on D :P

I never said losing either was a good thing. I'm simply saying, having both plus a 1st rounder DT (or any competent DTs) would be much better than having Frathis plus 2 scrubs DTs and a 1st rounder DE waiting on the bench, in case Frathis gets injured.

Thats all I'm saying.

I understand where you are coming from. We've needed our Warren Sapp since Tony took over the defense and installed the Tampa 2.

However just because you need a DT doesn't mean you automatically draft one if the player doesn't warrant the pick. Obviously Polian didn't believe there was anyone on the board at that position worth picking in the first round. You might disagree, but I'll ask you who was available when we drafted Hughes who would be considered worthy of a first rounder at the defensive tackle position? It's one thing to say he should have picked a player at a certain position, it's another to actually say who that player was.

Another thing is that Freeney and Mathis aren't getting any younger. I'm not saying they're old by any stretch but guys whose games are based on speed tend to age in a hurry. First and foremost of important in a Cover/Tampa 2 defense is the ability to get pressure on the QB from the front 4. If that isn't happening the whole defense falls apart as evidenced by Billy Volek carving us up like a turkey on thanksgiving.

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No need to even go back that far, try the recent Superbowl ... my mom could've been Superbowl MVP with zero pass rush, ten minutes to throw and our corners playing 50 yards off their receivers on 3rd and inches.

Yes, well, if you don't mind I'd rather NOT go back to that Superbowl.

:(

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I understand where you are coming from. We've needed our Warren Sapp since Tony took over the defense and installed the Tampa 2.

Hm, yes :P

However just because you need a DT doesn't mean you automatically draft one if the player doesn't warrant the pick. Obviously Polian didn't believe there was anyone on the board at that position worth picking in the first round. You might disagree, but I'll ask you who was available when we drafted Hughes who would be considered worthy of a first rounder at the defensive tackle position? It's one thing to say he should have picked a player at a certain position, it's another to actually say who that player was.

You're using the 2011 as an example. I'll give you that one.

I'll ask you one question tho: how about 03-04-05-06-07-08-09-10. Those are the years after Freeney (02, 1st rounder). Since then, there has been plenty of DTs drafted late in the first round, in the 2nd round and later in the draft, by all NFL teams, that became good to pretty good DTs.

Why hasnt BP drafted just 1 of them, besides in the 2nd round in 09? What happened during all those other years?

I'll play along with you tho and say everytime the Colts turn came up late in the first round since 03, there was no good prospect playing DT available. Then, my question is this: why not trading up?

Another question would be: why not trading down and draft 1 or 2 DTs with the extra picks?

Another question would be: instead of the draft, why not involving that #1 or a 2nd or 3rd (or a combination of picks) and go get a good/very good/great DT?

Those are/were feasible options. The fact is BP did neither.

Another thing is that Freeney and Mathis aren't getting any younger. I'm not saying they're old by any stretch but guys whose games are based on speed tend to age in a hurry. First and foremost of important in a Cover/Tampa 2 defense is the ability to get pressure on the QB from the front 4. If that isn't happening the whole defense falls apart as evidenced by Billy Volek carving us up like a turkey on thanksgiving.

I totally agree with you on this. Maybe a DT would've been better instead of using that pick on Gonzo or Brown then?

You still keep your beloved 1st rounder backup DE and I get my 1st rounder DT :P

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In 05 and 06, that tactic didnt worked as well vs the Colts. Thats the 2 years where the Colts had the most production out of the DT position.

You really think the Colts had good production for the DT position in '06? Not until the end of the season.
Since 2000, only 2 DTs were drafted in the first 2 rounds by the Colts (Tripplett 02 and Moala 09). Besides that, Simon and Booger were acquired in 05-06 and both had injuries/weight issues and thats why they were dealt.

Thats the only things they did to really try and fix the situation besides what happened since 2 days or so. Tripplett never was a great DT but he had his best year and started playing good (or rather, looked good) the minute he was playing next to an overweight/out of shape Simon. Check that week 1 game vs the Ravens, Tripplett looked like a good DT in that game.

The opposing teams couldnt play Simon 1 on 1 that year so they had to double him pretty often and when they did, either Mathis or Freeney were 1 on 1. Thats a win-win situation for the Colts.

You dont have that with the DTs currently on the roster.

You're making it sound like BP tried to fix the siatuation with all kinds of moves and picks. It just never happened.

He did... signing simon, trading for Booger, taking a chance of Ed Johnson, then taking a 3rd chance on Ed Johnson. Signing Monte Reagor, drafting of Trip (and Trip was only ever good for the first two games of the season and then one more at some point during the season). Taking a chance on Pitcock. They have done a lot to try and fix it, it's just nothing (other than Reagor) solved the issue for more than one year.

Lewis himself was complaining about 6 years ago about being doubled/tripled on every single plays (obviously, he was exagerating) and what did the Ravens do? They drafted Ngata and that fixed the D. The Steelers have Hampton. The Buccs had Sapp. The Panthers in 03-04 has Jenkins. The Bears, in their best years, had a dominant Harris. All are DTs.

I wasn't arguing the importance of the DT position. Going by your train of thought the Ravens should have drafted a NT before Ngata, Bucs should have drafted Sapp's replacement a year after he retired, Panthers should not be struggling now they should have fixed their DT problems long ago. The point is problems cannot always be fixed as soon as they become problems. With the Colts they have tried to fix the DT position ever since Dungy became the Colts. None of the solutions have worked out. Just think if Simon and played for 4 years (he was 28 when the Colts signed him so that's not unreasonable) would we be talking about DT being a long standing weakness? What if Booger had played 3 (he was 29 or 30 when the Colts got him) how would that have improved the DT? What if Ed Johnson had not decided to go back to his girlfriend, mary jane, and improved upon his rookie season? What if Pitcock had not retired and played for years like he did in the last few games of his rookie season? So, rather than going through that same thing with the DE position they took a guy to help reduce those issues if something happened. The strategy makes perfect sense.

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You're using the 2011 as an example. I'll give you that one.

I'll ask you one question tho: how about 03-04-05-06-07-08-09-10. Those are the years after Freeney (02, 1st rounder). Since then, there has been plenty of DTs drafted late in the first round, in the 2nd round and later in the draft, by all NFL teams, that became good to pretty good DTs.

Why hasnt BP drafted just 1 of them, besides in the 2nd round in 09? What happened during all those other years?

Well in 04 and 08 we didn't have 1st round picks. And I'll assume you wouldn't be willing to give up Dallas Clark or Joseph Addai (remember we'd just let edge go the year we drafted Addai and NEEDED a RB.) So that leaves Gonzo, Brown, or Marlin Jackson as the odd man out. You'll probably say Gonzo right? I also thought that was a wasted pick. But who was there? Alan Branch was available. But who does he play for now? (I bet you don't know, I didn't until I looked it up) What's he done lately? The next DT to come off the board was pick 81 in the middle of the 3rd round.

So that's out.

I'll assume Donald Brown would be next on the chopping block? He would be for me. Now here you might have a case that the pick should have gone DT. Ziggy Hood went to the Steelers @ 32 and then the Pats drafted Ron Brace at 40. The next DT off the board was the one we drafted who "appears" to be working his way up. Brace is a 3-4 DT and wouldn't really fit our system (although I do like him, even if he is a dirty patriot) So that pretty much leaves Ziggy Hood. He's a better fit for our system than Brace is, but I don't see him as that much better than Moala.

So that leaves Marlin. Except maybe then we don't pick off Tom Brady in the 2006 AFCCG and we're still wondering when will we ever win a superbowl. Would you give up that moment for a DT? I sure wouldn't (and btw, the ones drafted near him haven't set the world on fire either)

I'll play along with you tho and say everytime the Colts turn came up late in the first round since 03, there was no good prospect playing DT available. Then, my question is this: why not trading up?

Another question would be: why not trading down and draft 1 or 2 DTs with the extra picks?

Another question would be: instead of the draft, why not involving that #1 or a 2nd or 3rd (or a combination of picks) and go get a good/very good/great DT?

Those are/were feasible options. The fact is BP did neither.

Well first off, it takes two to tango. It's very easy for you and I to say that Polian should have traded down or up. Or packaged picks and gone after a blue chipper. But neither you or I have any idea if that would even be a possibility. Or maybe it was and they were looking to bend him over in the process?

The other fact is that as a team who builds almost entirely through the draft (and UDFA) trading several picks to move up to get one player could potentially cripple the team if the guy you do draft doesn't pan out. Not to mention we do have other needs.

I totally agree with you on this. Maybe a DT would've been better instead of using that pick on Gonzo or Brown then?

You still keep your beloved 1st rounder backup DE and I get my 1st rounder DT :P

I'll be the first to say that Gonzo and Brown were wasted picks. Gonzo has been good when healthy but we had no need at WR then or in the foreseeable future. But again, there wasn't really anyone available at DT that year. Same thing with Brown although I do agree it was a wasted pick since we already had Addai and the issue wasn't the running back it was the offensive line.

Trust me, I want a stud defensive tackle as much, if not more than anyone on the forum. But you have to understand they don't grow on trees (the trunks bend from the weight and up getting uprooted. It's a terrible terrible mess) and reaching for players or mortgaging the future on one guy is a surefire way to end up screwed.

I am cautiously optimistic though, that our fortunes may be looking up this year at the tackle position. Moala should be better. I like Drake Nevis (well, what I've seen from him) and Harris as the potential (notice I said potential) to be exactly what we need.

Really looking forward to the preseason this year.

Oh, and while it's OT, I'm declaring my mancrush on Ernie Sims right now.

EDIT: Also, look at the DT drafted after Hughes. I see a bunch of guys I've never heard of (and besides, if we're going to revise history, the pick should have been Roger Saffold)

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Oh mommy the neighborhood just blew up!!!!!!!! ;)

Good to seeya, Jaric as always. I see you still keep the pats fans in line over there....well mostly:)

Someone has to keep those knuckleheads in check. I guess I must have drawn the short straw.

:coltshorse:

You guys upgraded the smileys since last I was here.

:butterfly: <--- are those buttcheeks?

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He did... signing simon, trading for Booger, taking a chance of Ed Johnson, then taking a 3rd chance on Ed Johnson. Signing Monte Reagor, drafting of Trip (and Trip was only ever good for the first two games of the season and then one more at some point during the season). Taking a chance on Pitcock. They have done a lot to try and fix it, it's just nothing (other than Reagor) solved the issue for more than one year.

Pitcock was a 3rd rounder. Thats hardly an attempt to fix the situation. Same for Reagor and Johnson. Ed was signed as an undrafted FA. C'mon, Colts are known to sign a ton of them yearly.

Reagor wasnt bad in Indy (there's been worst) but, considering he was a DE in Denver, didnt do much there and they've let him go and he was signed for cheap, I wouldnt say that he had any chance of being the solution to all the DT problems.

Simon and Booger: both were true attempts at fixing the DT issues. You also gotta consider both had injuries issues. Also, Simon had weight issues, was out of shape and had issues with the coaches coming into camp.

Thats the best BP could do in the last decade or so :(

I wasn't arguing the importance of the DT position. Going by your train of thought the Ravens should have drafted a NT before Ngata, Bucs should have drafted Sapp's replacement a year after he retired, Panthers should not be struggling now they should have fixed their DT problems long ago. The point is problems cannot always be fixed as soon as they become problems. With the Colts they have tried to fix the DT position ever since Dungy became the Colts. None of the solutions have worked out. Just think if Simon and played for 4 years (he was 28 when the Colts signed him so that's not unreasonable) would we be talking about DT being a long standing weakness? What if Booger had played 3 (he was 29 or 30 when the Colts got him) how would that have improved the DT? What if Ed Johnson had not decided to go back to his girlfriend, mary jane, and improved upon his rookie season? What if Pitcock had not retired and played for years like he did in the last few games of his rookie season? So, rather than going through that same thing with the DE position they took a guy to help reduce those issues if something happened. The strategy makes perfect sense.

I dont see it. At all.

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Well in 04 and 08 we didn't have 1st round picks.

04=traded down, finally got Sanders. Colts did have a 1st, they simply used it to get a SS in the 2nd round.

In 08, the Colts had a 1st. It was Ugoh, selected in the 2nd in 07.

A SS and a LT instead of a DT.

And I'll assume you wouldn't be willing to give up Dallas Clark or Joseph Addai (remember we'd just let edge go the year we drafted Addai and NEEDED a RB.) So that leaves Gonzo, Brown, or Marlin Jackson as the odd man out. You'll probably say Gonzo right? I also thought that was a wasted pick. But who was there? Alan Branch was available. But who does he play for now? (I bet you don't know, I didn't until I looked it up) What's he done lately? The next DT to come off the board was pick 81 in the middle of the 3rd round.

So that's out.

Nope, thats not out.

I'm fine with Marlin btw as a pick because the Colts needed CBs. However, a WR and a HB were 2 wasted #1 picks (Gonzo, Brown). If nobody was available when the Colts turn came in the 1st, then why had they not already traded up?

Besides, what disables BP from trading a pick(s) during the season or off-season to get a proven commodity at DT if he cant get anything done during the draft?

I'll assume Donald Brown would be next on the chopping block? He would be for me. Now here you might have a case that the pick should have gone DT. Ziggy Hood went to the Steelers @ 32 and then the Pats drafted Ron Brace at 40. The next DT off the board was the one we drafted who "appears" to be working his way up. Brace is a 3-4 DT and wouldn't really fit our system (although I do like him, even if he is a dirty patriot) So that pretty much leaves Ziggy Hood. He's a better fit for our system than Brace is, but I don't see him as that much better than Moala.

Same as above. If you dont think anyone will be available when its your turn and you really need a position fixed, trade up or trade during the season/off-seaosn or use UFA.

So that leaves Marlin. Except maybe then we don't pick off Tom Brady in the 2006 AFCCG and we're still wondering when will we ever win a superbowl. Would you give up that moment for a DT? I sure wouldn't (and btw, the ones drafted near him haven't set the world on fire either)

I'll never question Marlin's selection, not because of what he did as a Colt, but because his selection was warranted due to the position he played and the need the Colts has for that position at the time. He coulda been a bust, been always injured, thats irrelevant for me when it comes to this: Colts needed CBs bad so they picked a CB in the first round.

Well first off, it takes two to tango. It's very easy for you and I to say that Polian should have traded down or up. Or packaged picks and gone after a blue chipper. But neither you or I have any idea if that would even be a possibility. Or maybe it was and they were looking to bend him over in the process?

I've been hearing that for years now. Sadly tho, other teams have been able to dance. Why?

The other fact is that as a team who builds almost entirely through the draft (and UDFA) trading several picks to move up to get one player could potentially cripple the team if the guy you do draft doesn't pan out. Not to mention we do have other needs.

I agree. How the heck can you fix a problem tho if you dont trade and dont draft to fix that problem when its your turn because "no good prospect are left". Something here makes no sense :P

I'll be the first to say that Gonzo and Brown were wasted picks. Gonzo has been good when healthy but we had no need at WR then or in the foreseeable future. But again, there wasn't really anyone available at DT that year. Same thing with Brown although I do agree it was a wasted pick since we already had Addai and the issue wasn't the running back it was the offensive line.

Issues were DT and OT mainly. Drafting a WR and HB to serve as #3 wr and #2 hb when you're offense is consistently top 3 in the NFL year-in year-out yet your D is consistently in the bottom 5 makes 0 sense.

I dont care how its spun. There's no way BP didnt had any opportunity to get a good/great DT during all those years, either thru trading up, trading during the season/off-season or via UFA.

Trust me, I want a stud defensive tackle as much, if not more than anyone on the forum. But you have to understand they don't grow on trees (the trunks bend from the weight and up getting uprooted. It's a terrible terrible mess) and reaching for players or mortgaging the future on one guy is a surefire way to end up screwed.

Colts dont need great DTs. Most teams do need great DTs to win games with a good/great D in the NFL because they dont have the offense the Colts have. The Colts only need competent DTs who are actually just average to good.

I am cautiously optimistic though, that our fortunes may be looking up this year at the tackle position. Moala should be better. I like Drake Nevis (well, what I've seen from him) and Harris as the potential (notice I said potential) to be exactly what we need.

I have nothing to say against what has been done to the DT position this off-season. I'll also never complain, say in about 6 months, that Harris/Anderson/Nevis/whomever else were bad signings or bad picks.

There was an issue at DT and they tried to fix the issue.

Something they didnt tried to do for most of the past decade. Its good to see things seem to be different in this new decade :P

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The issue people can/could have on Hughes isnt Hughes himself. He's irrelevant, just like Brown. The issue is, why waste a #1 on a backup?

Regardless of whether Brown was gonna be better than Addai or not, that was irrelevant. The facts are/were:

-Colts are a pass offense first

-Addai isnt a bad runner at all

-Chances of Brown being better than Addai at PBK were of about 0% considering Addai's 1 of the top 3 better PBK backs in the league, something the Colts offense has been relying on for the last decade

Moving on to Hughes, drafting him in the first round didnt made any sense when you consider the following:

-2 pro-bowlers at DE already on the team, both in their prime, neither having shown injuries issues in the past(aka, missing a year or so and requiring knees surgeries or something)

-NCAA caliber DTs on the roster

-weak tackles (LT and RT)

The drafting of Hughes would've made sense if:

-Either Mathis or Freeney were just average DEs and Hughes was exactly what the Colts needed, which in the current situation, isnt the case

-Had the Colts not have other glaring holes on the roster (DT, LT, RT), getting a 1st rounder at DE to backup 2 pro-bowlers would've made some sense

-Either Freeney or Mathis would've shown, thru the years, to have been very prone to injuries (having required surgeries and stuff, aka, The Eraser)

-Either Freeney or Mathis would've been 33-34 and the drafting of Hughes would've been to replace either aging DE in a year or 2

What happened is nothing mentionned above. The only way this pick makes sense is because they have been thinking of letting Mathis walf after the upcoming season which would be foolish.

In the past, when I've wrote this on the old Colts board (as Brown and Hughes were drafted), all people would say is "in BP we trust" and the old references of "PM over Leaf" and "Edge over Ricky".

Really, thats the only argument?

That's not the only argument. Polian has been correct in his decision making at least 90% of the time. The Hughes pick was also celebrated when it happened because the Super Bowl taught us a few things: namely, when either member of Team Frathis goes down, we suffer. The FO stated that Hughes was expected to alleviate both men, while also coming in to provide additional pressure by standing or sliding to the outside. Finally, the Mathis contract issue is a huge deal. He's going to want big money that we may not have. Since D-Linemen typically take a year or two to develop in this scheme, Hughes will likely have grown into his expected potential by this time should Mathis become a pain in the but in the off-season. All indications suggest that he's going to go totally WR-Diva on us.

There are so many factors that play into the Hughes pick that you, and most dim-witted armchair critics just never see. Would taking Saffold have been a more useful, if short-term selection? Perhaps. But our pass protection hadn't exactly been bad to that point, and we certainly didn't expect the Lilja departure, the suckage of Ugoh, and a smattering of O-line injuries. Not to mention playing RB's #4 and 5 to protect against the blitz for most of the season.

Besides, I am far happier with Castonzo and Ijalana as our linemen picks than I would have been with Saffold and... no one else.

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Speaking of which... A little recap of DTs drafted in the last few years...

2003: Robertson (top 5), Kennedy and Joseph (1st rounders, injuries riddled), Adams (2nd), Franklin (5th),

2004: Harris (top 15), Dockett, Starks, Williams (3 from 3rd round on): I left out Tank Johnson and Marcus Tubbs, 2nd and 1st rounders, who played in the NFL but had various issues.

2005: Castillo (#28 in first), Patterson (#31 in first), Cody (#37 in second), Babineaux (late 2nd), Pouha (middle 3rd), Canty (4th).

2006: Ngata (#12), Bunkley (#14), Peko (4th), Cofield (4th), Kyle Williams (5th), Jolly (6th), Golston (6th).

2007: Okoye (top 10), Mebane (3rd), Thomas (4th), Landri (5th). Besaides Mebane, not much in this draft, DT wise.

2008: Dorsey and Ellis (both top 10), Laws (2nd), Sims (3rd), Rubin (6th - a steal).

Some nice DTs who got drafted past the first round. 2 were also selected late in the first round and ended up having nice careers.

I'm sure there were a few in 02 too, as well as 09-10. I didnt bothered checking those years.

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That's not the only argument. Polian has been correct in his decision making at least 90% of the time. The Hughes pick was also celebrated when it happened because the Super Bowl taught us a few things: namely, when either member of Team Frathis goes down, we suffer. The FO stated that Hughes was expected to alleviate both men, while also coming in to provide additional pressure by standing or sliding to the outside. Finally, the Mathis contract issue is a huge deal. He's going to want big money that we may not have. Since D-Linemen typically take a year or two to develop in this scheme, Hughes will likely have grown into his expected potential by this time should Mathis become a pain in the but in the off-season. All indications suggest that he's going to go totally WR-Diva on us.

There are so many factors that play into the Hughes pick that you, and most dim-witted armchair critics just never see. Would taking Saffold have been a more useful, if short-term selection? Perhaps. But our pass protection hadn't exactly been bad to that point, and we certainly didn't expect the Lilja departure, the suckage of Ugoh, and a smattering of O-line injuries. Not to mention playing RB's #4 and 5 to protect against the blitz for most of the season.

Besides, I am far happier with Castonzo and Ijalana as our linemen picks than I would have been with Saffold and... no one else.

Cute.

But, you really sure BP's right 90% of the time?

Sounds to me like you're throwing up a number (false one shall I add) just to make you feel better. History has taught us that 90% is far, very far, from the truth.

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04=traded down, finally got Sanders. Colts did have a 1st, they simply used it to get a SS in the 2nd round.

In 08, the Colts had a 1st. It was Ugoh, selected in the 2nd in 07.

A SS and a LT instead of a DT.

If Bob Sanders was able to stay healthy, we'd be talking about a future hall of famer. He'd be our John Lynch. The impact he made when present on our defense is undeniable. And as to Ugoh, you do recall that Tarik Glenn was retiring that year correct? The LT position is one of the most important positions in football, even more so for an offensive team built around the pass. I know you want a DT, but I don't see how you can fault Polian for drafting Tarik Glenn's successor.
Nope, thats not out.

I'm fine with Marlin btw as a pick because the Colts needed CBs. However, a WR and a HB were 2 wasted #1 picks (Gonzo, Brown). If nobody was available when the Colts turn came in the 1st, then why had they not already traded up?

Ok, so we trade up. Lets assume that we find a willing trade partner (which we actually can't assume but for the sake of argument lets say we can.)

Who you picking? The closest DT off the board when we drafted Gonzo was at pick 16 Justin Harrel. The next closest was at 10 Amobe Akoye. Harrell is still a free agent and Akoye just got cut from the Texans as well. We could sign both those guys as free agents now if we wanted to. Those were the only two DTs taken in the first round. I won't even go into what we would have had to have given up to move from 32 to 16 or 10. We'd have traded over half our draft.

Who could have possibly traded up in 2009 to get? Well we could have traded up 3 spots to get Peria Jerry. Of course he's done nothing so far in the NFL (to be fair, he was hurt) The next possible spot would be to trade up to 9 to get BJ Raji. Again though, do you have any idea what we'd have had to give up to get Raji? And he's a 3-4 nose tackle. That would be beyond silly to trade our entire draft (and probably some of 2010s as well) to get a guy who doesn't even fit our system.

Besides, what disables BP from trading a pick(s) during the season or off-season to get a proven commodity at DT if he cant get anything done during the draft?

You mean like when we went after Corey Simon or traded for Booger?

Same as above. If you dont think anyone will be available when its your turn and you really need a position fixed, trade up or trade during the season/off-seaosn or use UFA.

Ok, so we go after a free agent. Who are you cutting to make cap room? There is only so much money to spread around. So who don't we re-sign that frees up money for this mythical free agent? And once you've figured out who we're cutting, then you need to say who we're signing. It's easy to say that we should have signed "someone!" but who? Stud Defensive tackles don't grown on trees (remember, the trunks aren't strong enough) and usually when a team gets a good one (especially one who can pass rush which is what we need) they tend to hang on to them and the ones that don't command a small fortune in free agency.

I've been hearing that for years now. Sadly tho, other teams have been able to dance. Why?

And how many of them have enjoyed anywhere close to the level of success we've had since Polian has been here? The reason we've had that level of success is because we didn't pull a Ditka chasing after a position of need. That cripples a team ESPECIALLY a team that builds primarily through the draft.

I agree. How the heck can you fix a problem tho if you dont trade and dont draft to fix that problem when its your turn because "no good prospect are left". Something here makes no sense :P

We have drafted, traded for, and signed free agent defensive tackles. Polian has made more than one attempt at addressing the defensive tackle position, and as a result we might actually have it figured out this year.

I dont care how its spun. There's no way BP didnt had any opportunity to get a good/great DT during all those years, either thru trading up, trading during the season/off-season or via UFA.

It's not spin. It's reality. Instead of talking in vague generalities, tell us who you think we should have gotten. What free agent should we have signed or what player should we have drafted that we did not?
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I'm fine with Marlin btw as a pick because the Colts needed CBs. However, a WR and a HB were 2 wasted #1 picks (Gonzo, Brown). If nobody was available when the Colts turn came in the 1st, then why had they not already traded up?

Brown, I'll admit, was a shock, but we drafted Gonzo to replace Stokely. Pretty much everybody was on-board with that pick if I remember correctly. Now, looking at Collie and Garcon, the pick has lost value a smidge, but I think that since he's only played 2 games in 2 seasons some people forget that he's actually a solid WR (In 2007 = 37 Rep, 576 Yds, 3 TDs. 2008 = 57 Rep, 664 Yds, 4 TDs. Both seasons playing 3rd wheel with Marvin Harrison in the mix) who's never had a chance to actually be a featured starter for an entire season.

Sadly for us, he and Collie seem to both be in the same injury boat, so let's just knock on some wood and hope the four horsemen stay, for the first time, healthy for one entire season together.

Edit: Oh, and, Jerry Hughes this, Jerry Hughes that to stay on topic. :blah:

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Actually, I was livid at the fall off in the second half of the Super Bowl from our pass rush! The first thing I cussed and screamed about when it was over was we better draft another DE, because after that and the Chargers game a few years back, it became apparent. If Freeney is hurt, we are finished!

I may have even posted something on the old forum about it. I was very happy when Polian was on the same level as me come draft time. At least we have insurance at the most important defensive position on our team. Maybe if Harris can have a few more decent years with us, it won't be as needed, but still a nice luxury.

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Polian could have done better at tackle. Much better. Doesn't mean he ignored the issue, though. He clearly didn't. The team was snake-bit at defensive tackle through 2008, between injuries, defections and retirements. Not excusing Polian's missteps, but like Coffee said, things could have been a lot better if not for some unforeseen occurences. Using a first rounder on a defensive tackle isn't the only way to address the problem, and pretending that because he didn't means that he did nothing is far-fetched, to say the least.

I'll also add that for years, Dungy wasn't concerned with what we had at tackle. Gap integrity were the only two words out of his mouth. And now that I understand line play a little better, he was right about gap integrity. But that doesn't mean we couldn't have added some size and talent in the middle of our line. Playing Dawson and Foster at tackle in 2008 was sinful.

Retrospectively, there's a lot we could have done in the past two or three years to improve the defensive tackle spot, including drafting Ziggy Hood instead of Donald Brown. But Hood is a three-tech (actually plays five-tech end in the Steelers 3-4), so that wouldn't have fixed our need for a good nose tackle.

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If Bob Sanders was able to stay healthy, we'd be talking about a future hall of famer. He'd be our John Lynch. The impact he made when present on our defense is undeniable. And as to Ugoh, you do recall that Tarik Glenn was retiring that year correct? The LT position is one of the most important positions in football, even more so for an offensive team built around the pass. I know you want a DT, but I don't see how you can fault Polian for drafting Tarik Glenn's successor.

Ok, so we trade up. Lets assume that we find a willing trade partner (which we actually can't assume but for the sake of argument lets say we can.)

Who you picking? The closest DT off the board when we drafted Gonzo was at pick 16 Justin Harrel. The next closest was at 10 Amobe Akoye. Harrell is still a free agent and Akoye just got cut from the Texans as well. We could sign both those guys as free agents now if we wanted to. Those were the only two DTs taken in the first round. I won't even go into what we would have had to have given up to move from 32 to 16 or 10. We'd have traded over half our draft.

Who could have possibly traded up in 2009 to get? Well we could have traded up 3 spots to get Peria Jerry. Of course he's done nothing so far in the NFL (to be fair, he was hurt) The next possible spot would be to trade up to 9 to get BJ Raji. Again though, do you have any idea what we'd have had to give up to get Raji? And he's a 3-4 nose tackle. That would be beyond silly to trade our entire draft (and probably some of 2010s as well) to get a guy who doesn't even fit our system.

2004, 08 and 09?

What about 03, 05, 06, 07, 10? Btw, drafting Sanders in the 2nd round doesnt mean BP couldnt draft a DT in the later rounds.

You mean like when we went after Corey Simon or traded for Booger?

I know you know both were damaged goods. Dont make it sound like either of them was always gonna be the permanent fix.

Ok, so we go after a free agent. Who are you cutting to make cap room? There is only so much money to spread around. So who don't we re-sign that frees up money for this mythical free agent? And once you've figured out who we're cutting, then you need to say who we're signing. It's easy to say that we should have signed "someone!" but who? Stud Defensive tackles don't grown on trees (remember, the trunks aren't strong enough) and usually when a team gets a good one (especially one who can pass rush which is what we need) they tend to hang on to them and the ones that don't command a small fortune in free agency.

Who said the Colts needed stud dts? All the Colts need is average/above average DT play, thats all. If they can find good/very good/great DTs, thats even better. Fact is, with the defensive scheme, Frathis plus a top 5 offense year-in year-out, the Colts dont need dominant DTs.

No need to try and make it sound like there wasnt any DTs available (capable ones) to be picked up either via trading, in the late rounds of the draft or via free agency in the last decade (besides 05-06).

You seem to think I'm talking about DTs like Wilfork, Sapp, Randle or Jenkins. I'm not. I'm talking about average to above average DTs. There's plenty of them around and has been plenty of them around over the years.

Heck, I named several who were selected in the later rounds since 03.

And how many of them have enjoyed anywhere close to the level of success we've had since Polian has been here? The reason we've had that level of success is because we didn't pull a Ditka chasing after a position of need. That cripples a team ESPECIALLY a team that builds primarily through the draft.

And your point is what? That BP never meesed up? I'm not sure whats your point but if anything, thats a silly attempt to say that BP never messes up, or what he has had more success than Ditka and therefore, cant mess up and is perfect.

I dont look at it this way, sorry. You can tho, feel free to do so.

We have drafted, traded for, and signed free agent defensive tackles. Polian has made more than one attempt at addressing the defensive tackle position, and as a result we might actually have it figured out this year.

Stop making it sound like BP traded for tons of them, signed tons of DTs UFAs and stuff. You can hardly make a point so you gotta revert to that? C'mon, we both know the list of players that fit the above criterias you just mentionned is slim, very slim.

It's not spin. It's reality. Instead of talking in vague generalities, tell us who you think we should have gotten. What free agent should we have signed or what player should we have drafted that we did not?

Ok, so this year, few guys were signed to help out on the DL. Why has it not been the case every other year or so sicne a decade (besides 05-06, duh) when it was obvious the DT spot was a huge problem, the biggest weakness on the Colts roster.

You're making it sound like there's no Sapp, Jenkins, Wilfork or Randle available so therefore, there's no DT available at all that could help out the Colts.

Thats just being silly and refusing to admit something, sorry.

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Polian could have done better at tackle. Much better. Doesn't mean he ignored the issue, though. He clearly didn't. The team was snake-bit at defensive tackle through 2008, between injuries, defections and retirements. Not excusing Polian's missteps, but like Coffee said, things could have been a lot better if not for some unforeseen occurences. Using a first rounder on a defensive tackle isn't the only way to address the problem, and pretending that because he didn't means that he did nothing is far-fetched, to say the least.

I'll also add that for years, Dungy wasn't concerned with what we had at tackle. Gap integrity were the only two words out of his mouth. And now that I understand line play a little better, he was right about gap integrity. But that doesn't mean we couldn't have added some size and talent in the middle of our line. Playing Dawson and Foster at tackle in 2008 was sinful.

Retrospectively, there's a lot we could have done in the past two or three years to improve the defensive tackle spot, including drafting Ziggy Hood instead of Donald Brown. But Hood is a three-tech (actually plays five-tech end in the Steelers 3-4), so that wouldn't have fixed our need for a good nose tackle.

Nobody said that because he didnt used a first, this means he did nothing.

What I said was, he didnt do much (besides 05-06). The awnser I usually get from BP apologists is "top DTs are only available in early 1st round (top 10) and we draft late in first".

Anyone who knows a bit about football will know there are good DTs available later in the trade and via UFA. I also pointed out that anyway, if good DTs were only available in the top 10-15 (which isnt true anyway), nothing prevents BP from trading up anyway.

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I know you know both were damaged goods. Dont make it sound like either of them was always gonna be the permanent fix.

Simon was far from damaged goods. He was a 28 year old DT only 2 seasons removed from the Pro Bowl with only 2 missed games in his career. He was still at a high level. Only reason the Colts got him was because he refused the Eagles franchise tag.

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Simon was far from damaged goods. He was a 28 year old DT only 2 seasons removed from the Pro Bowl with only 2 missed games in his career. He was still at a high level. Only reason the Colts got him was because he refused the Eagles franchise tag.

When he got with the Colts, he was out of shape. He was out of shape when he reported to TC with the Eagles, duh.

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When he got with the Colts, he was out of shape. He was out of shape when he reported to TC with the Eagles, duh.

I don't think anyone viewed him as damaged goods when he got here. His weight wasn't really the reason for his failure anyways... He was just a total head case.

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Camio, are you done yet?

Everyone here has shot down every argument you have had with some pretty well thought out and logical responses.

To which you reply with the same things, over and over and over and over and over and over (yeah, its repetitive and annoying isnt it?).

First you act like there was no need for anything BUT a DT all these years, and then you say when its pointed out that the Colts made an effort that it wasnt a real effort because they were drafing DTs in later rounds, then you go on to say they dont need a stud DT...

Well, thats pretty much where your argument fell off the train trestle and into the 1000ft ravine.

You cant have it both ways. You have argued both sides of your own argument. You now make no sense at all...

You mentioned Ugoh shouldnt have been taken. Who then? Glenn RETIRED! There had to be someone at LT that year and Ugoh was a solid prospect at the time.

Id go on, but its all been covered...pretty darn well. For some reason you just dont get it at all.

DTs that would fix the problem long term werent available at the picks the Colts wanted to use for them. Period.

They made efforts to fix it. They havent worked out so well until last year where things began to turn around a bit at times. This year should be better still (Im hoping Harris is much better than we all think he will be and its a HUGE improvement).

The money to sign some of these big name guys you want isnt there.

You have to cut some of the other guys and thats not happening.

Oddly enough, the Colts have seemed to make it further than teams that DID spend the money on DTs...odd isnt it?

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Nobody said that because he didnt used a first, this means he did nothing.

What I said was, he didnt do much (besides 05-06). The awnser I usually get from BP apologists is "top DTs are only available in early 1st round (top 10) and we draft late in first".

Anyone who knows a bit about football will know there are good DTs available later in the trade and via UFA. I also pointed out that anyway, if good DTs were only available in the top 10-15 (which isnt true anyway), nothing prevents BP from trading up anyway.

How am I a BP apologist? I said very clearly that he could have done better over the years. I posted on the old board during the Texans opener that Polian was to blame for the team's ineffectiveness in the trenches in that game, on both sides of the ball. Get over your talking points.

What I am saying is that he hasn't totally ignored the position. He's taken defensive tackles in various rounds of the draft. Some worked out, some didn't. But you can't look at the tackles we've drafted, signed, traded for over the years and say that Polian has simply neglected the position. He's messed up, sure. This would apply to the offensive line as well, where Polian simply has no eye for drafting good offensive linemen. I'm not as down on Pollak as everyone else is, but looking at the 2008 draft, we could have done better than him in the second round. Hindsight is 20/20, and that couldn't be more true of the draft. But we traded a second rounder for Booger, who helped us win a Super Bowl. We also signed Corey Simon that same year. Those two moves were a huge deal when you think about how Polian operates. He saw a weakness and went after it, and even though the Simon deal wound up being a bad one, we were better in the short term.

I only bring all this up because you're acting as if Polian has done nothing, and you keep talking about what we could have done differently in the draft. You're right, we could have done a ton differently in the draft, but that doesn't mean that Polian has done nothing. You say yourself that good DTs are available in different rounds, but you're not acknowledging the fact that the team has drafted DTs in different rounds. If your argument is simply that Polian doesn't do a good job of drafting defensive tackles, then maybe we can establish some common ground; like I said, he's been snake-bit for many years (between Simon deteriorating from some rare condition and Quinn Pitcock up and quitting football to play Call of Duty, that's pretty obvious). But he's done pretty well at other positions, so it's not like he simply can't draft.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. I would have stayed out of this because it's fruitless. Not only have we done it before, but it doesn't change anything. Some of us really like Polian, others of us really dislike Polian. The reasons don't really matter. But most of us -- and I'm thinking most of us in this thread -- fall somewhere in the middle. I think he's a good GM with some serious flaws to his approach. Hopefully his son is more progressive than he is as the years go on.

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Back to the original topic:

http://www.18to88.com/2011-archives/august/wednesday-night-camp-review.html

Let's start with my MVP of the night: DE Jerry Hughes. It really didn't matter who he was lining up against on any given play. Ben Ijalana, Joe Reitz, Mike Tepper - all of them had trouble keeping the second-year player out of the backfield. Hughes used his speed to blow around the edge one play, while bulldozing his way through a tackle the next. I counted at least two plays where he arrived at Painter's back to sack him a second before the ball was released. Basically, he did everything Colts fans were hoping to see out of him in his second year. If Hughes can keep this up into the preseason, I think he has a bright year ahead of him. At the very least, he's starting it off right. 

Still, it's Ben Ijalana, Joe Reitz, and Mike Tepper, but we'll see....

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The NT position has been The Greatest Weakness to our D in the last 10 years. When Simon or McFarland were there our D was greatly improved b/c it was finally working the way it was designed to work ( Dungy played this D in '77)

The Steel Curtain had great play from its DT's ; the Williams' Wall (Vikings) ;

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Hughes under performed and looked overwhelmed because of his strength, which was evident last season. If you recall, the Colts stated he needed to get stronger. Hopefully he spent the offseason doing just that.

I wouldn't even say he underperformed. He hardly got on the field. And the few times he did, he actually got some pressure. I don't like the Hughes pick, but I think he's gonna be a good player. As he gets stronger and a little bigger, he'll get more consistent. But he needs reps or it doesn't matter.

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I think it is somewhat unfair to throw it on Polian about the DT position. As has been pointed out by other posters, it is not for lack of trying. But some pretty bad luck. Simon, I remember, I was stoked about. Booger as good. I thought Ed Johnson was a stud the first year. Pitcock started coming on. The parts have been put there, but for bizarre reasons, it didn't work out.

Nobody harps on WRs, but it is not that far off. Other then Wayne, who has Polian hit on WR that has been consistently good? Pathon and Green, in his first draft, were misses. Gonzalez is always hurt. Collie, who is potentially very good, had the unfortunate concussions. Garcon shows flashes but then drops easy passes. So, applying that logic, couldn't someone say Polian can't draft WRs?

I believe without Polian, this team is not very good. I would say out of talent evaluators, he is the best out there. In a free agency era, it is hard to hold teams together. But just imagine the talent the Colts would have had if we were still pre-free agency NFL?

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i would say he hit huge on garcon and collie considering they were 6th and 5th round picks respectively. In a redraft, collie would probably be 1st or 2nd round and garcon would probably be 2nd.

Gonzo showed tons of promise until the two injuries, so no one really knows what we have there.

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