Does building the D really require so much more time?

[camcolts2621]

If we look at the defense from a paper point of view, it's pretty easy for us to see that we have talent.

 

A young secondary who has Vontae as a leader... Geathers who makes me want to believe he can do more than just tackle (Like Bob Sanders did).... Green who has so much potential... Adams who has been the security blanket, but will be gone soon, Butler who can really make plays but is plagued with injuries and coaching? Robinson, IDEK

 

Okay... i'll admit the LBer's corp is really mehhh. Walden has been average, McNary is mehhh, Morrison has potential (hopefully in coverage soon), Jackson strives anywhere he goes, Mathis I still have faith, I forgot everyone else because we got rid of Irving and Moore???

 

And the D-Line! What happened, They have the potential to be so stout! Anderson, McGill!!!! Jones, Kerr, Parry

 

All these guys and their potential sound so awesome, but what's the deal? Do they need more time to gel just like the O-line? Are they all not as good as we make them out to be individually? Can they not perform in unison? Do we just have terrible coaching?

 

I just don't see how we can have the 30th ranked defense in the NFL....

 

 

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

13 minutes ago, camcolts2621 said:

If we look at the defense from a paper point of view, it's pretty easy for us to see that we have talent.

 

A young secondary who has Vontae as a leader... Geathers who makes me want to believe he can do more than just tackle (Like Bob Sanders did).... Green who has so much potential... Adams who has been the security blanket, but will be gone soon, Butler who can really make plays but is plagued with injuries and coaching? Robinson, IDEK

 

Okay... i'll admit the LBer's corp is really mehhh. Walden has been average, McNary is mehhh, Morrison has potential (hopefully in coverage soon), Jackson strives anywhere he goes, Mathis I still have faith, I forgot everyone else because we got rid of Irving and Moore???

 

And the D-Line! What happened, They have the potential to be so stout! Anderson, McGill!!!! Jones, Kerr, Parry

 

All these guys and their potential sound so awesome, but what's the deal? Do they need more time to gel just like the O-line? Are they all not as good as we make them out to be individually? Can they not perform in unison? Do we just have terrible coaching?

 

I just don't see how we can have the 30th ranked defense in the NFL....

 

 

 

 

 

The Grigson story I linked in another thread says we not only have the oldest defense in the NFL,  but that over Grigson's 5 years,  we've invested the fewest draft picks and FA bucks on that side of the ball.    Grigson has spent most of his resources on offense.

 

We just don't have the talent there.     And it's finally caught up to us....

 

Building a rock solid and deep defense is not going to get done in one year.     It will take at least 3 years,  and if Grigson screws up more picks,  it might take longer as it's been with the offense.

 

EDIT NOTE:      Here is a key paragraph in how little Grigson has invested in the Colts defense.....          Just consider this: Through all the traded picks and selections used on offensive players, there simply isn't a core of cost-controlled defensive players on this roster because Grigson hasn't devoted the resources toward acquiring one. Using Chase Stuart's draft value chart, the Colts have committed just 64 points of draft capital toward defensive players since 2012, the lowest figure in football. The average team has committed 113.3 points over that same time frame. (The Colts are ninth in terms of capital used on offensive players since Grigson arrived.)

[GoBlue12]

38 minutes ago, camcolts2621 said:

If we look at the defense from a paper point of view, it's pretty easy for us to see that we have talent.

 

A young secondary who has Vontae as a leader... Geathers who makes me want to believe he can do more than just tackle (Like Bob Sanders did).... Green who has so much potential... Adams who has been the security blanket, but will be gone soon, Butler who can really make plays but is plagued with injuries and coaching? Robinson, IDEK

 

Okay... i'll admit the LBer's corp is really mehhh. Walden has been average, McNary is mehhh, Morrison has potential (hopefully in coverage soon), Jackson strives anywhere he goes, Mathis I still have faith, I forgot everyone else because we got rid of Irving and Moore???

 

And the D-Line! What happened, They have the potential to be so stout! Anderson, McGill!!!! Jones, Kerr, Parry

 

All these guys and their potential sound so awesome, but what's the deal? Do they need more time to gel just like the O-line? Are they all not as good as we make them out to be individually? Can they not perform in unison? Do we just have terrible coaching?

 

I just don't see how we can have the 30th ranked defense in the NFL....

 

 

 

 

Linebacking is bad. Walden is OK. Passes to tight ends or running backs are going to kill us every game.

[ClaytonColt]

Look at our offensive line.

 

Two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick starting. Two 3rd Round picks are also in that group.

 

Receivers. One 1st rounder and three third rounders - we also let a 2nd round pick walk in free agency.

 

We've them obviously got a 1st round quarterback.

 

What have we got on the other side of the ball in terms of high picks?

 

In the whole group we have a 2nd round safety and a 3rd round defensive linesman. The rest of the defense is made up of low round picks, undrafted players, aging free agents and low level pick ups.

 

If you ignore your defense to the extent that we've only selected one linebacker in an early round since 2010 (and he was a massive miss) then you can't be surprised when your that  group turns out to be old and bad.

 

Although it pleased a lot of people this is why I was against the focus on the offensive line in the latest draft.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

LB corp = LB corpse. Going to take at least two seasons of quality drafting. 

 

We need a quality CB too, but beyond that I would go all in on LB's in the top three draft for the next two or three years. And yes, I know we need a RB too, but at this point I would rather find a bum on the street until the LB mess is sorted for good.

[BOTT]

The linebackers are an insult to "mehhh"

[Yoshinator]

We have Vontae, Green, Geathers, Adams, and Henry Anderson. 5 guys that should be considered starters on our defense. We aren't starting Green, Geathers, and Adams on every play either, so it's more like 4 starters on most play with a great 5th backup. Look at these 5 players, 4 are on the secondary, 1 on the D-Line, and no Linebacking core. That is scary. We will have 5 picks in the first 4 rounds most likely (Fleener comp). With these picks, we need to go all defense. Get 5 solid defensive players that can all be starters. No project picks like Clark on the O-Line, save them for rounds 5-7. Get some starters on defense. Get two pass rushers in the 1st 3 rounds that fit our scheme that way it takes pressure off our secondary. We have solid players there, but they can't cover forever with no pass rush. Get a nice NT to plug up the middle. Hopefully something to the extent of a Dontari Poe. An ILB would be excellent as well. Get someone that can challenge Morrison and be a leader on this team. Very weak in that area. Finally, get a CB that can cover well in either the Outside opposite Vontae or the slot. Don't care which one, as long as he can do it effectively somewhere and fill a spot.

 

In reality, we are probably at least 2 drafts away from fixing the defense, but this would be a nice start.

[csmopar]

I think we struggle thru this season with what we have, then a massive fire sale on the D side, I think the only one's you'll see left will be Anderson, Jones(if they are healthy) Parry, McGill, Ridgeway, Davis, Green, Geathers, Walden.   Everyone else will likely be cut or let walk. then I look for an active FA and a defensive heavy draft with maybe a pick or 2 on O. If we keep losing and wind up in the top 10 in picks, I could see us trading down, I've heard this draft is deep in the LB area and we need that, so if we pick up 2-3 picks in exchange for moving down, we could really change up the D in a single year.  Will it be magically and suddenly be the beast we need, no.  That will take time but I think you can pick up 8-10 players between the draft and FA that will improve the D instantly, provided you don't make a miss.

[Yoshinator]

3 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I think we struggle thru this season with what we have, then a massive fire sale on the D side, I think the only one's you'll see left will be Anderson, Jones(if they are healthy) Parry, McGill, Ridgeway, Davis, Green, Geathers, Walden.   Everyone else will likely be cut or let walk. then I look for an active FA and a defensive heavy draft with maybe a pick or 2 on O. If we keep losing and wind up in the top 10 in picks, I could see us trading down, I've heard this draft is deep in the LB area and we need that, so if we pick up 2-3 picks in exchange for moving down, we could really change up the D in a single year.  Will it be magically and suddenly be the beast we need, no.  That will take time but I think you can pick up 8-10 players between the draft and FA that will improve the D instantly, provided you don't make a miss.

I agree with this, an underrated point of view on why a losing could benefit us is if we get a high pick, we can move down and obtain extra picks to fill needs on this team. If we could get 7 picks in the first 4 rounds by trading down, I do trust Grigson to hit on 4 of them. 4 starters would give an instant boost to the defense. If 2 of the other 3 were upgraded depth and only 1 was a complete bust, that's still a huge improvement. I wouldn't expect us to have 7 picks all defense if we did indeed trade down, but maybe 5 would be. I expect either a trade up for an elite pass rusher, or a trade down for more volume on defense. Something to accelerate the rebuild that we are still in after 5 years.

[GwinnettColt]

I think our safety positions are forming up nicely and the D line is better (will be much better when/if Anderson returns for good).

 

CB position is mediocre (or less).  Vontae is decent but his counterpart is ....well, needing improvement.

 

The LB position has holes.  DQ is inconsistent and not great when coverage is needed. Morrison?  Jury is out. I do like Walden but I think he sometimes overpursues and gets tricked.  He is a great hitter, though.  

We are VERY week at OLB/RUsh.  I was hoping for Kruger when he left Cleveland.  They signed Maggitt but he sees the field on occasion and you don't see much from him so I haven't made my mind up on him yet.  

 

That's players.  Now coordinator/coaches.  The D seems lost.  They played almost four quarters of football last week and then quit in the last three minutes.  I don't get it.  They were baffled and they couldn't stop the run.  Miller ran like Edge on them.  Osweiler looked like Manning.  

 

 

[colts52761]

Never understood why we went to 3-4? Especially if you don't want to invest in high picks into linebackers?

[runthepost]

How long did it take Seattle to build that D in 2013?

[Solon]

All we really need is a pass rush when you think about it. If we could get after the quaterback, it'd be harder for LB's to be exploited in coverage.

[jchandler7]

I agree with Solon, our entire D is suffering majorly from inadequate pass rush. I realize it's not our only weakness but i believe we'd be about a middle of the pack average D if we had a couple solid pass rushers. Along with a good pass rush comes turnovers, incompletions and poor throws by QB's trying to get rid of the ball. Our D makes opposing QB's look MUCH better than they really are and our DB's look worse than they are. The QB has time to sit in the pocket and take his time going through all his progressions and then back again. We would look better against the run as well because it makes the O more one dimensional. Our MLB's and safeties could focus on the run more and not be as worried about the QB carving them up. Our coaches philosophy's might be off. They say stop the run 1st (i agree you have to be able to stop the run) but if you focus on getting to the QB and getting in his head and off his game the rest usually falls into place, as long as you've got a couple run stuffing MLB's or NT that is. Sorry, rant off. IMO we are "atleast" 4 players away from having a good D, 2 pass rushers, 1 MLB and 1 corner.

[aReggie7]

1 hour ago, runthepost said:

How long did it take Seattle to build that D in 2013?

 

I think 3 years to get most of the key players. It probably started with drafting Earl Thomas in round 1 in 2010. They got Chancellor in 2010, then Sherman in 2011, and Wagner in 2012. Other key guys were drafted/signed too.

 

One advantage Seattle has is Pete Carroll. Not only at identifying the talent and putting together a roster but he is really good at coaching young players...maybe the best in the league with young guys.

[JColts72]

Depends on who the brains building it are. Should not take years on end.

[Malakai432]

12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

EDIT NOTE:      Here is a key paragraph in how little Grigson has invested in the Colts defense.....          Just consider this: Through all the traded picks and selections used on offensive players, there simply isn't a core of cost-controlled defensive players on this roster because Grigson hasn't devoted the resources toward acquiring one. Using Chase Stuart's draft value chart, the Colts have committed just 64 points of draft capital toward defensive players since 2012, the lowest figure in football. The average team has committed 113.3 points over that same time frame. (The Colts are ninth in terms of capital used on offensive players since Grigson arrived.)

 

Ah, very promising.  

[Happy2BeHere]

16 hours ago, camcolts2621 said:

If we look at the defense from a paper point of view, it's pretty easy for us to see that we have talent.

 

A young secondary who has Vontae as a leader... Geathers who makes me want to believe he can do more than just tackle (Like Bob Sanders did).... Green who has so much potential... Adams who has been the security blanket, but will be gone soon, Butler who can really make plays but is plagued with injuries and coaching? Robinson, IDEK

 

Okay... i'll admit the LBer's corp is really mehhh. Walden has been average, McNary is mehhh, Morrison has potential (hopefully in coverage soon), Jackson strives anywhere he goes, Mathis I still have faith, I forgot everyone else because we got rid of Irving and Moore???

 

And the D-Line! What happened, They have the potential to be so stout! Anderson, McGill!!!! Jones, Kerr, Parry

 

All these guys and their potential sound so awesome, but what's the deal? Do they need more time to gel just like the O-line? Are they all not as good as we make them out to be individually? Can they not perform in unison? Do we just have terrible coaching?

 

I just don't see how we can have the 30th ranked defense in the NFL....

 

 

 

 

 

Well I think it's easy to answer your own question. You used a key word "potential" so IMO we don't need to say anything more because we know where it is.

[OLD FAN MAN]

8 hours ago, colts52761 said:

Never understood why we went to 3-4? Especially if you don't want to invest in high picks into linebackers?

pagano

[OLD FAN MAN]

7 hours ago, Solon said:

All we really need is a pass rush when you think about it. If we could get after the quaterback, it'd be harder for LB's to be exploited in coverage.

I concur

[Devildog]

Two years is my guess.

[Dark Superman]

Grigson and Pagano had five years to lay out the blueprint and build a respectable defense for this organization and I can honestly say.. they made it worse.

They failed.

Miserably.

[jbaron04]

We have some talent as do every team but we don't have any pass rush.  Like you know the pass rusher is bad when your edge setter is your top sack guy. Next our line backing core is the worst in the NFL, we are ancient 36,34,32 and they mix young guys in like Morrison who at best is a 1 down player. Football is a passing game now you have to have guys that can run and cover at the line backer spots.

[jbaron04]

To me the reason our team def is so bad is first we don't have a dominant nose tackle, in this def the nose is suppose to be a brick wall that requires a double on first and second down. Which takes to guys out the center and normally a gaurd, the your 5-tech are suppose to stop the tackles from getting to the second level and free up gaps for your suppose to be sure handed mlb and ilb to make plays. Then your strong side is suppose to be the edge setter on the strong side of the off preventing the runner from getting out side forcing a cut back where you mike fills and your will makes the play. Then you force them to 2nd long and hopefully 3n7+ to get into all your blitzes. That how our base should work to me. But how it actually happens is the strong over plays since he has to pass rush now since the weak side can't. Which let's the runner get outside and when he doesnt our Mike and will fill the wrong holes and or missed the tackle. Pass def problems is mostly due to pass rush imo 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

On 10/22/2016 at 4:20 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

The Grigson story I linked in another thread says we not only have the oldest defense in the NFL,  but that over Grigson's 5 years,  we've invested the fewest draft picks and FA bucks on that side of the ball.    Grigson has spent most of his resources on offense.

 

We just don't have the talent there.     And it's finally caught up to us....

 

Building a rock solid and deep defense is not going to get done in one year.     It will take at least 3 years,  and if Grigson screws up more picks,  it might take longer as it's been with the offense.

 

EDIT NOTE:      Here is a key paragraph in how little Grigson has invested in the Colts defense.....          Just consider this: Through all the traded picks and selections used on offensive players, there simply isn't a core of cost-controlled defensive players on this roster because Grigson hasn't devoted the resources toward acquiring one. Using Chase Stuart's draft value chart, the Colts have committed just 64 points of draft capital toward defensive players since 2012, the lowest figure in football. The average team has committed 113.3 points over that same time frame. (The Colts are ninth in terms of capital used on offensive players since Grigson arrived.)

Holy %. That is so so terrible. 

[oldunclemark]

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 3:11 AM, camcolts2621 said:

If we look at the defense from a paper point of view, it's pretty easy for us to see that we have talent.

 

A young secondary who has Vontae as a leader... Geathers who makes me want to believe he can do more than just tackle (Like Bob Sanders did).... Green who has so much potential... Adams who has been the security blanket, but will be gone soon, Butler who can really make plays but is plagued with injuries and coaching? Robinson, IDEK

 

Okay... i'll admit the LBer's corp is really mehhh. Walden has been average, McNary is mehhh, Morrison has potential (hopefully in coverage soon), Jackson strives anywhere he goes, Mathis I still have faith, I forgot everyone else because we got rid of Irving and Moore???

 

And the D-Line! What happened, They have the potential to be so stout! Anderson, McGill!!!! Jones, Kerr, Parry

 

All these guys and their potential sound so awesome, but what's the deal? Do they need more time to gel just like the O-line? Are they all not as good as we make them out to be individually? Can they not perform in unison? Do we just have terrible coaching?

 

I just don't see how we can have the 30th ranked defense in the NFL....

 

 

 

 

We don't have enough talent on defense.

We have no edge rusher of note..and that makes our secondary look weaker than it is

Our secondary would be better if we rushed the passer better (I know that's obvious)

 

Adams and Robert Mathis are, to be kind, older players..and Robert is playing out of position.

It takes while to build a defense because you need play makers at all 3 levels

[Jhaze55]

I'm just saying, if Erik Walden is the best linebacker you have, then you're in some deep trouble

[oldunclemark]

11 minutes ago, Jhaze55 said:

I'm just saying, if Erik Walden is the best linebacker you have, then you're in some deep trouble

No offense meant to Walden..but 'Jhaze' , you summed it up better than I did....

[oldunclemark]

  Denver's 'D' doesn't tell you much for sure about how to build

 

Denver's Shaq Barrett and Chris Harris Jr. are undrafted free agents..

DeMarcus Ware, Aqib Talib, TJ Ward and Darien Stewart are free agents..

Von Miller, Shane Ray, Sylvester Williams and Bradley Roby are No. 1 picks...

Derek Wolfe is a second round pick...

 

Miller is the key so I guess they built through the draft..somewhat...

.....we need to draft a great edge rusher