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This team seems to have a culture problem.


SilentHill

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7 hours ago, krunk said:

This team has an execution problem

 

7 hours ago, SilentHill said:

 

Agreed, the source of this execution problem is the debate ;)

 

Reminds me of the John McKay quote. When asked what he thought about his team's execution, he replied: "I think it's a good idea." 

 

 

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2 hours ago, krunk said:

The Funny Thing is they are talking about expanding Morrisons role.  How in the heck do you do that?  Maybe they are talking about more blitzing.  I don't know, but  I hope they aren't talking about leaving him in coverage more!

 

Monachino: Growing Morrison's role. Have to find ways to elevate E. Jackson and continue to grow McNary. #Colts

— George Bremer (@gmbremer) Oct 06, 2016

We have to believe that any talk of expanding Morrison's role is coach speak and of necessity, don't we?  

 

At this point, Morrison hasn't failed on a grand enough stage for it to be challenged.  I use the disclaimer all the time that I don't do player evaluations...but in the case of Morrison, I'll make an exception.

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3 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

We have to believe that any talk of expanding Morrison's role is coach speak and of necessity, don't we?  

 

At this point, Morrison hasn't failed on a grand enough stage for it to be challenged.  I use the disclaimer all the time that I don't do player evaluations...but in the case of Morrison, I'll make an exception.

Its' scary because all this Nickel Coverage we have been playing because of the passing game and they are "expanding his role".  I don't even want to know what that is but it can't be good.  They need to expand him to the bench on passing downs period!  LOL

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4 hours ago, ztboiler said:

The real head scratcher comes in Morrison.  I'm not usually very critical of how a 4th round pick gets spent - its a crapshoot anyway - but there is nothing about that pick which suggests that the shared vision of Pagano/Grigson is headed down the path of modern football in a productive way.  There probably wasn't a better ILB to pick in the 4th, none that I wanted anyway, but that is hardly the point.

 

It would have been easy to retain Freeman on a 4 year deal that plays like 2, even at a discount to what DQ is making.  I was shocked we didn't roll that way then and still am.  That decision along with the drafting of Morrison is the first time I've become seriously concerned about the roster building partnership of how Pagano and Grigson shop for, select and cook up the groceries.

 

I agree with your whole post, but especially this. For all the reasons that I liked what they did this offseason, the selection of Morrison -- and their giddiness about getting him -- tells me that they don't value range and athleticism at the one position that a lack of range and athleticism is sorely lacking on this roster. That bugs me. They've been getting shredded across the middle since 2012, and then they get rid of their one proven space guy in Freeman, and jump up and down at the chance to draft Morrison. C'mon, guys... 

 

Morrison seems to have the attitude and the work ethic that one would like from an ILB, despite his limitations. But to me, those limitations will prevent him from being a serviceable player in the NFL. Or maybe he'll be a Dont'a Hightower / Brandon Spikes kind of guy, which isn't bad, but still not the kind of ILB I think the Colts desperately need. 

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3 minutes ago, krunk said:

Its' scary because all this Nickel Coverage we have been playing because of the passing game and they are "expanding his role".  I don't even want to know what that is but it can't be good.  They need to expand him to the bench on passing downs period!  LOL

Growing his role simply means they are trying to get him to the point where he has more value that just a 2 down thumper. Of course he has not even shown to do that at a sufficient level which brings me to a point I think is a league wide problem just about in my opinion with few exceptions......Coordinators often times ask to much of many prospects and by that I mean they ask him to do something he simply is not good at doing right away instead of allowing him to do things in the defense he IS good at and letting him settle down

 

There simply is not a lot of ILB's that are good cover ILB's and I am in favor of getting Cover ILB's instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. This staff tried the square peg in the round hole tactic for Morrison for 28 snaps. It didn't work. It comes down to play recognition and awareness but you also have to communicate with the ILB next to you and drop back at a proper depth

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Something in my gut tells me they think he's like this Ray Lewis type of guy, but Ray Lewis came out of College running 4.5 not 5.1. Let me stop because I do like Morrison, but only in portions of the running game. 

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34 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I agree with your whole post, but especially this. For all the reasons that I liked what they did this offseason, the selection of Morrison -- and their giddiness about getting him -- tells me that they don't value range and athleticism at the one position that a lack of range and athleticism is sorely lacking on this roster. That bugs me. They've been getting shredded across the middle since 2012, and then they get rid of their one proven space guy in Freeman, and jump up and down at the chance to draft Morrison. C'mon, guys... 

 

Morrison seems to have the attitude and the work ethic that one would like from an ILB, despite his limitations. But to me, those limitations will prevent him from being a serviceable player in the NFL. Or maybe he'll be a Dont'a Hightower / Brandon Spikes kind of guy, which isn't bad, but still not the kind of ILB I think the Colts desperately need. 

Exactly.  Cmon guys is right!  Character is great, but if you can't make a play outside the tackles, you can't even play 2 downs.  Probably not that bad but he doesn't get more than a fingernail on cutback moves very often!

 

Yet, all in all the, 2016 offseason was about as productive as can be expected when the mission is to go back to the basics if roster building. 

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25 minutes ago, Gavin said:

Growing his role simply means they are trying to get him to the point where he has more value that just a 2 down thumper. Of course he has not even shown to do that at a sufficient level which brings me to a point I think is a league wide problem just about in my opinion with few exceptions......Coordinators often times ask to much of many prospects and by that I mean they ask him to do something he simply is not good at doing right away instead of allowing him to do things in the defense he IS good at and letting him settle down

 

There simply is not a lot of ILB's that are good cover ILB's and I am in favor of getting Cover ILB's instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. This staff tried the square peg in the round hole tactic for Morrison for 28 snaps. It didn't work. It comes down to play recognition and awareness but you also have to communicate with the ILB next to you and drop back at a proper depth

You're right, I don't believe there's a vast supply of linebackers who can cover either.  You kind of have to settle in the middle for the most part until you run across an elite prospect.  A decent one I believe is a guy who can knock a couple balls down from time to time, or play tight enough coverage long enough to where the QB decides to go else where. Might not happen all the time, but a decent amount of times.  Morrison is not anywhere close to even being in the middle like a Jerrell Freeman.  Heck he's not even Mcnary when it comes to the passing game.   He'd be Lucky to bat one ball down a game.   I'm sure they thought they were going to get the coverage part out of Sio Moore but that just blew up in their faces.

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Morrison is more of a replacement for DQJ in the future.

 

He's not athletic enough to be a replacement for Freeman.        That was supposed to be Sio Moore.     And that didn't work out at all.

 

So,  we are where we are.....      we'll have to hope for the best....

 

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I'm interested to see if we can get anything out of Bates at ILB.  He's got the size, smarts, and the speed to do it but I haven't seen him in coverage enough to know if he'd be decent.   I do know he's a pretty good tackler though.   Edwin Jackson has the speed to do it too, but he needs work at the actual approach to coverage.  If these two guys can come along and show something then we might have something.  I just don't want to see an increase in Morrison being in coverage.

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1 hour ago, ztboiler said:

Seriously?  Not my fight, but I'm hearing  grade school playground sound effects in the background.

 

I'm merely pointing out that the same jabs apply in both directions, no need to get your panties in a bunch.

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32 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Morrison is more of a replacement for DQJ in the future.

 

He's not athletic enough to be a replacement for Freeman.        That was supposed to be Sio Moore.     And that didn't work out at all.

 

So,  we are where we are.....      we'll have to hope for the best....

 

 

I'd rather not have a Jackson replacement, I'd rather have a Jackson upgrade. 

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This team has a talent problem now...after all the missed high picks and the stupid Trent Richardson trade. How dumb can Grigson be? Cleveland phoned Grigs asking for a 1st...shouldn't the little alarm bell in his head go off?...nope.

 

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8 hours ago, ztboiler said:

I think you also may be overestimating how many good players, starter level, make up a "good draft" historically.  If you have the time, go through the last 5 drafts of every team and tally them up.  On average, 2 buildings blocks form a good draft and 3 is a great draft.  We've done that every year except 2013.

 

 

Huh?

 

2014:    Jack Mewhort and Donte Moncrief.

 

So,  if you want to include Hugh Thornton,  for a two years period that's 3 players on our roster.

 

That's it.

 

When you do poorly in Free Agency and over a back-to-back period of the draft you come out with 3 total players,  only two of which are playing,  THAT'S why we are where we are.....    In a deep hole that we're trying to dig our way out of.

 

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I'd rather not have a Jackson replacement, I'd rather have a Jackson upgrade. 

 

Well....    fine.

 

But the point is Morrison is not playing the position where we ultimately would like to.     So, if he doesn't look great there,  if he looks a bit out of place there,  well,    there's a good reason.

 

He's not playing his best position.

 

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29 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

Huh?

 

2014:    Jack Mewhort and Donte Moncrief.

 

So,  if you want to include Hugh Thornton,  for a two years period that's 3 players on our roster.

 

That's it.

 

When you do poorly in Free Agency and over a back-to-back period of the draft you come out with 3 total players,  only two of which are playing,  THAT'S why we are where we are.....    In a deep hole that we're trying to dig our way out of.

 

As written,  we have no quarrel.  Yes, we got 2 or more building blocks every year except 2013...or at least it appears so.

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24 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

As written,  we have no quarrel.  Yes, we got 2 or more building blocks every year except 2013...or at least it appears so.

 

Except that you're saying that's OK......   and I'm saying it's not.

 

I'm saying our two year haul of what we got in '13 and '14,  both the draft and FA, is why we are now where we are.

 

 

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3 hours ago, krunk said:

I'm interested to see if we can get anything out of Bates at ILB.  He's got the size, smarts, and the speed to do it but I haven't seen him in coverage enough to know if he'd be decent.   I do know he's a pretty good tackler though.   Edwin Jackson has the speed to do it too, but he needs work at the actual approach to coverage.  If these two guys can come along and show something then we might have something.  I just don't want to see an increase in Morrison being in coverage.

 

Krunk it's good to usually take the opposite of what you want and times it by 3.   That's what your going to get with this team.  So Morrison will most likely see 3 times the amount of snaps on coverage than he was getting before the release of Moore.  I guess he has to learn somehow.  I kid, I kid, kind of. 

 

lmao

 

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49 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Except that you're saying that's OK......   and I'm saying it's not.

 

I'm saying our two year haul of what we got in '13 and '14,  both the draft and FA, is why we are now where we are.

 

 

That's a whole separate issue from whether we drafted well or not...which is all I originally addressed. 

 

Free agents are basically rentals league wide moreso than building blocks.  Failures there are most dramatically felt in current year operations and any subsequent financial penalties affecting future years.  In that light, the offseason failure of 2013 is grossly overstated, despite its obvious void.

 

We do have Vontae Davis to show for 2013 resources, but at the end of the day, when you get specific and objective, we missed on first round picks in 13 and 14 and those are the real roster building setbacks. Everything else is mostly noise.

 

I'm bullish on the 15 and 16 classes.  Add them all up and we appear to have no less than 14 foundation level players drafted in 5 years.  That's pretty good.

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4 hours ago, CanuckColt said:

This team has a talent problem now...after all the missed high picks and the stupid Trent Richardson trade. How dumb can Grigson be? Cleveland phoned Grigs asking for a 1st...shouldn't the little alarm bell in his head go off?...nope.

 

I agree

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27 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

That's a whole separate issue from whether we drafted well or not...which is all I originally addressed. 

 

Free agents are basically rentals league wide moreso than building blocks.  Failures there are most dramatically felt in current year operations and any subsequent financial penalties affecting future years.  In that light, the offseason failure of 2013 is grossly overstated, despite its obvious void.

 

We do have Vontae Davis to show for 2013 resources, but at the end of the day, when you get specific and objective, we missed on first round picks in 13 and 14 and those are the real roster building setbacks. Everything else is mostly noise.

 

I'm bullish on the 15 and 16 classes.  Add them all up and we appear to have no less than 14 foundation level players drafted in 5 years.  That's pretty good.

 

Interesting......    you're good with the 15 and 16 classes because you think we have 14 foundation players.

 

But in the previous paragraph, you note we missed on the 13 and 14 first round picks and that THOSE ARE THE REAL ROSTER BUILDING BLOCKS.    EVERYTHNG ELSE IS JUST NOISE.

 

Well.    that a big contradiction.

 

You can't have 14 building blocks in the classes you like,  and dismiss the missed draft picks from 13 and 14 as noise.      Sorry,  but that's having it both ways.

 

No.    Can.      Do.

 

It's one, or the other,  but not both.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Interesting......    you're good with the 15 and 16 classes because you think we have 14 foundation players.

 

But in the previous paragraph, you note we missed on the 13 and 14 first round picks and that THOSE ARE THE REAL ROSTER BUILDING BLOCKS.    EVERYTHNG ELSE IS JUST NOISE.

 

Well.    that a big contradiction.

 

You can't have 14 building blocks in the classes you like,  and dismiss the missed draft picks from 13 and 14 as noise.      Sorry,  but that's having it both ways.

 

No.    Can.      Do.

 

It's one, or the other,  but not both.

 

 

There is no contradiction.  You are not reading for comprehension tonight.  14 in 5 years.

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3 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

There is no contradiction.  You are not reading for comprehension tonight.  14 in 5 years.

 

Sorry.....   I see it now....

 

But still we have badly underachieved in drafting.     That's why we are where we are.    13 and 14 are devastating.

 

Who do you see as the 14 foundational players that we've drafted?      Inquiring minds are asking....

 

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3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well....    fine.

 

But the point is Morrison is not playing the position where we ultimately would like to.     So, if he doesn't look great there,  if he looks a bit out of place there,  well,    there's a good reason.

 

He's not playing his best position.

 

 

Well that's fair, but you know I'm not a Morrison fan at all. I don't expect him to play good at any position, really. 

 

I was dead wrong on Sio Moore, though, so hopefully I'm wrong on Morrison too.

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8 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Well that's fair, but you know I'm not a Morrison fan at all. I don't expect him to play good at any position, really. 

 

I was dead wrong on Sio Moore, though, so hopefully I'm wrong on Morrison too.

 

Honestly,   I didn't realize you were that down on him.     There actually was another ILB that I was hoping we'd show interest in and he went about 6 picks after we took Morrison.

 

Blake Martinez went to Green Bay.    And he's doing so well,  not only is he starting,  but they've given him the radio helmet so defensive signals are being sent in to him --- a rookie.     That's impressive.

 

But,  Grigson and Pagano are so high on Morrison, that I'm expecting this will be DQJ's last year and Morrison will start at the Mike next year.    Hopefully then we'll find out why we're so high on the kid.  

 

What we do at the weak ILB I have no idea....?     Bates?   Edwin Jackson?     Free agent?

 

Dunno....?

 

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6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I agree with your whole post, but especially this. For all the reasons that I liked what they did this offseason, the selection of Morrison -- and their giddiness about getting him -- tells me that they don't value range and athleticism at the one position that a lack of range and athleticism is sorely lacking on this roster. That bugs me. They've been getting shredded across the middle since 2012, and then they get rid of their one proven space guy in Freeman, and jump up and down at the chance to draft Morrison. C'mon, guys... 

 

Morrison seems to have the attitude and the work ethic that one would like from an ILB, despite his limitations. But to me, those limitations will prevent him from being a serviceable player in the NFL. Or maybe he'll be a Dont'a Hightower / Brandon Spikes kind of guy, which isn't bad, but still not the kind of ILB I think the Colts desperately need. 

 

I confess I'm surprised at this write-up.

 

I think Morrison was drafted to replace DQJ next year.

 

I think that's why we cut Irving.     Because we got Morrison.

 

I think we felt we could let Freeman go because we had Moore to replace him.     

 

So, without Irving, and now with Moore getting cut,  we're down to playing guys out of position.    

 

I see Morrison as a Mike.     I think we're hoping that McNary can surprise.    Or Edwin Jackson can surprise.  I think we're crossing our fingers with Morrison and hoping that his increase in snaps produces a better player who can be acceptable at the weakside-ILB.   

 

I think some ILB's can play either spot.    But I don't think all can.     I'm not sure Morrison is a good scheme fit if he's not a Mike.

 

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6 hours ago, krunk said:

You're right, I don't believe there's a vast supply of linebackers who can cover either.  You kind of have to settle in the middle for the most part until you run across an elite prospect.  A decent one I believe is a guy who can knock a couple balls down from time to time, or play tight enough coverage long enough to where the QB decides to go else where. Might not happen all the time, but a decent amount of times.  Morrison is not anywhere close to even being in the middle like a Jerrell Freeman.  Heck he's not even Mcnary when it comes to the passing game.   He'd be Lucky to bat one ball down a game.   I'm sure they thought they were going to get the coverage part out of Sio Moore but that just blew up in their faces.

 

I agree that the expectation of LBs to cover are a little high. The reality is they're almost always on the wrong end of a mismatch, & asking them to cover more than a few yards just isn't realistic. And as far as Morrison goes, it's unfortunate that the defense is in a spot where they need him to be a starter so soon. He's a rookie, & I think the plan was to have him replace Jackson next season, while getting some experience this year. I'm worried about him being on the field in an expanded role on the field.

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6 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sorry.....   I see it now....

 

But still we have badly underachieved in drafting.     That's why we are where we are.    13 and 14 are devastating.

 

Who do you see as the 14 foundational players that we've drafted?      Inquiring minds are asking....

 

Luck

Fleener

Allen

Hilton

Mewhort 

Moncrief 

Dorsett 

Anderson 

Geathers 

Good

Kelly

Green

Ridgeway/Clark - 1 or both will pan out

Haeg

 

+Vontae Davis as a bonus. I don't see how we could ever leave him out as a building block thru our 2nd round pick of 2013.

 

The strength of draft success is dependent on the future of 15 and 16 class production, that's always true, but there is a lot to like.  

 

13 is a disaster, but those who exaggerate it's importance do so completely ignoring that it yielded a franchise cornerstone at one of the most difficult positions in football.

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8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Honestly,   I didn't realize you were that down on him.     There actually was another ILB that I was hoping we'd show interest in and he went about 6 picks after we took Morrison.

 

Blake Martinez went to Green Bay.    And he's doing so well,  not only is he starting,  but they've given him the radio helmet so defensive signals are being sent in to him --- a rookie.     That's impressive.

 

But,  Grigson and Pagano are so high on Morrison, that I'm expecting this will be DQJ's last year and Morrison will start at the Mike next year.    Hopefully then we'll find out why we're so high on the kid.  

 

What we do at the weak ILB I have no idea....?     Bates?   Edwin Jackson?     Free agent?

 

Dunno....?

 

I was hoping for Nick vigil. He went round 3 to my least favorite team :(

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On Sunday, October 02, 2016 at 9:25 PM, Superman said:

 

This is nonsense.

 

1) Who would you have replaced Grigson with in 2016?

2) Take Grigson's name off of the Colts offseason, and grade it. Now tell me it reflects incompetence. You really can't.

3) The bolded is not based in fact, at all, and has pretty much been soundly refuted.

 

It's amazing to me how little it takes for a fanbase to turn on EVERYONE when things aren't going well.

The janitor

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3 hours ago, ztboiler said:

Luck

Fleener

Allen

Hilton

Mewhort 

Moncrief 

Dorsett 

Anderson 

Geathers 

Good

Kelly

Green

Ridgeway/Clark - 1 or both will pan out

Haeg

 

+Vontae Davis as a bonus. I don't see how we could ever leave him out as a building block thru our 2nd round pick of 2013.

 

The strength of draft success is dependent on the future of 15 and 16 class production, that's always true, but there is a lot to like.  

 

13 is a disaster, but those who exaggerate it's importance do so completely ignoring that it yielded a franchise cornerstone at one of the most difficult positions in football.

 

I'm not sure why you're including Fleener here?

 

It doesn't help much that we drafted Fleener since we elected not to keep him.    How is he a foundational player for the Colts if he's not on our roster now?     

 

You've got me scratching my head....           :scratch:

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I'm not sure why you're including Fleener here?

 

It doesn't help much that we drafted Fleener since we elected not to keep him.    How is he a foundational player for the Colts if he's not on our roster now?     

 

You've got me scratching my head....           :scratch:

 

 

 

Because you credit each player in each class for what he is.  You aren't going to be able to resign them all.  Fleener received a significant payday on second contract, and played a key role in wins while here.  That's a draft pick that worked....and we'll get a decent comp pick for him in return.

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12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I confess I'm surprised at this write-up.

 

I think Morrison was drafted to replace DQJ next year.

 

I think that's why we cut Irving.     Because we got Morrison.

 

I think we felt we could let Freeman go because we had Moore to replace him.     

 

So, without Irving, and now with Moore getting cut,  we're down to playing guys out of position.    

 

I see Morrison as a Mike.     I think we're hoping that McNary can surprise.    Or Edwin Jackson can surprise.  I think we're crossing our fingers with Morrison and hoping that his increase in snaps produces a better player who can be acceptable at the weakside-ILB.   

 

I think some ILB's can play either spot.    But I don't think all can.     I'm not sure Morrison is a good scheme fit if he's not a Mike.

 

 

I'm talking specifically at Mike. To me, the Colts need to be more athletic especially at Mike, not just Will. They decided to draft a replacement for Jackson who has the same limitations as Jackson, when I think they need to add someone who is good in space, rangy, and tackles well. They got someone who tackles well, if he can get to the play. I disagree with their vision at Mike.

 

At Will, they thought Moore could replace Freeman; so did I. When they traded for Moore, I said he was the most talented ILB on the roster, including Freeman. He didn't play that way, for whatever reason. So I understand their decision to move on from Freeman. Still, they were wrong, end of the day. 

 

And now, we're going to use a combination of four guys at ILB, three of which are not rangy, athletic guys. The one who does fly around has low awareness and gets lost in coverage, based on what we saw in preseason. 

 

That's all based on my opinion that the defense would be better with two rangy, athletic guys who can cover, as opposed to their preferred Mike/Will combo. Philosophically, I wouldn't have drafted a guy like Morrison, especially in the 4th, because I don't want ILBs who aren't rangy and who can't cover, not at Mike or Will. 

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1 hour ago, ztboiler said:

Because you credit each player in each class for what he is.  You aren't going to be able to resign them all.  Fleener received a significant payday on second contract, and played a key role in wins while here.  That's a draft pick that worked....and we'll get a decent comp pick for him in return.

 

We're talking about different things.

 

If we're talking about good draft picks --- fine.

 

But if we're talking about foundation players for our future --- then no.

 

If you're talking about Fleener being a foundation player for the 4 years he was with us --- OK.     But if we let him go,  and we did,   then I think it shows we weren't happy with what we got from the 34th overall pick of his draft.

Tough to see a guy as a foundational player that we chose to let go to another team.

 

When you mentioned "foundational players"  I thought you were referring to our future.....     

 

Some of the rookies you mentioned....    I like them,  but they haven't YET demonstrated that they will be foundational level players.      I hope they will be.     I expect them to be.    But they're not there yet......

 

Just saying....

 

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15 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

We're talking about different things.

 

If we're talking about good draft picks --- fine.

 

But if we're talking about foundation players for our future --- then no.

 

If you're talking about Fleener being a foundation player for the 4 years he was with us --- OK.     But if we let him go,  and we did,   then I think it shows we weren't happy with what we got from the 34th overall pick of his draft.

Tough to see a guy as a foundational player that we chose to let go to another team.

 

When you mentioned "foundational players"  I thought you were referring to our future.....     

 

Some of the rookies you mentioned....    I like them,  but they haven't YET demonstrated that they will be foundational level players.      I hope they will be.     I expect them to be.    But they're not there yet......

 

Just saying....

 

I won't parse words about all of that....and have already acknowledged the projections of players from 15 and 16 as just that...projections.

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