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Luck ranked 2nd on early season QB index


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4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Interesting that you noted all the key players San Diego played without to give them a good excuse for losing.

 

Yet,  I don't recall you making that argument for us losing to Detroit.

 

Let's be honest,  if we were healthy for Detroit,  we'd have smoked them,   that would not have been a shoot-out.

 

Well we weren't really discussing Detroit in this thread.  Esp. since it was the game Luck played lights out.  Obviously we would have won that game if healthy, but honestly we should have won it with the D we had.  We spent the first half not being able to move the ball against that abysmal DET D.  And then we let them drive damn near 70 yds in :40 on the final drive.  Mix those two and even though we played an excellent 29:20 in the 2nd half in all phases of the game it still was only half a game and not enough.

 

But I still don't know what that has to do with us barely beating a depleted SD Chargers?  It was a much needed win, but it didn't instill a lot of confidence in me and make me think the Colts improved vastly from Week 2 to Week 3.

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4 minutes ago, tikyle said:

Well we weren't really discussing Detroit in this thread.  Esp. since it was the game Luck played lights out.  Obviously we would have won that game if healthy, but honestly we should have won it with the D we had.  We spent the first half not being able to move the ball against that abysmal DET D.  And then we let them drive damn near 70 yds in :40 on the final drive.  Mix those two and even though we played an excellent 29:20 in the 2nd half in all phases of the game it still was only half a game and not enough.

 

But I still don't know what that has to do with us barely beating a depleted SD Chargers?  It was a much needed win, but it didn't instill a lot of confidence in me and make me think the Colts improved vastly from Week 2 to Week 3.

 

I'm simply noting that if you're going to make an excuse for the Chargers losing to the Colts,  then you can also make the exact same excuse (lots of key injuries)  for the Colts losing to the Lions.

 

I also don't understand why you think we should've beaten the Lions with the defense we put on the field.

 

That was one terrible defense we put out there.      We had trouble stopping them all day.     I wasn't surprised that Detroit moved so far so easily and won.     After what I saw all game long,   I expected it.

 

We were literally missing half our defense and about half the back-ups we did have were right off the street that week.       I don't know why anyone would expect more than we got week one?      Honestly.

 

 

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I'm simply noting that if you're going to make an excuse for the Chargers losing to the Colts,  then you can also make the exact same excuse (lots of key injuries)  for the Colts losing to the Lions.

 

I also don't understand why you think we should've beaten the Lions with the defense we put on the field.

 

That was one terrible defense we put out there.      We had trouble stopping them all day.     I wasn't surprised that Detroit moved so far so easily and won.     After what I saw all game long,   I expected it.

 

We were literally missing half our defense and about half the back-ups we did have were right off the street that week.       I don't know why anyone would expect more than we got week one?      Honestly.

 

 

We can blame the injuries for giving up a lot of points against Detroit, but the coaches have to shoulder the blame for the loss when Luck and Co. did what they did.

 

You can't look at the gameplan to slow their strength as anything but deficient when we gave up 200+ yards receiving to their backs...

 

It was a defensive coaching performance that goes in their employment file permanently.

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13 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

We can blame the injuries for giving up a lot of points against Detroit, but the coaches have to shoulder the blame for the loss when Luck and Co. did what they did.

 

You can't look at the gameplan to slow their strength as anything but deficient when we gave up 200+ yards receiving to their backs...

 

It was a defensive coaching performance that goes in their employment file permanently.

 

I don't know why you and others are blaming the coaches.....  (other than for clock management...)

 

We were without........

 

Langford and Anderson and Jones on the DL

 

And we were without Davis and Geathers in the D-backfield to start the game,  and then lost Robinson and Green early in the game.      I think we may have also been missing a linebacker somewhere....

 

And some of our replacements were just brought in off the street days before and were forced to start.

 

It was insane.

 

Did we mismanage the clock at the end?     Yes,  I think so.    But in terms of the entire game,  we were an overmatched opponent.      I'm surprised Detroit didn't score on every drive.

 

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10 minutes ago, dudeski said:

i ran into a dude at the gas station who had him rated above wentz.  the dude at the gas station has just as much authority on the subject as PFF

 

Sure he does......      sure he does......

 

I'm not sure where your hate for PFF comes from?      As Gavin has explained numerous times and provided links,  the guys who are doing the grading have been involved in football on a professional basis.    And a large number of NFL teams subscribe to them.       Why you think that doesn't give them some level of credibility is a completely mystery.

 

This isn't to say that they're completely right.     Grading is subjective.    Different people will see the same thing differently.      But for you to say they have no credibility and no authority is completely and demonstrably false.

 

 

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6 hours ago, tikyle said:

You cannot be serious?  The first one Luck didn't see, I'll give you that.  The second one vs. SD was totally his fault.  He got bottled up.  Continued to try and get free.  Was stood up and the defender was just prying at the ball until he got it free.  That was ALL on Luck.

 

Why does assessments on this board all seem even except when we critique the QB or someones favorite player?

 

All of Luck's TOs this year have been disastrous.  None have come when trying to close the gap on a big lead.  All his TOs have come when the Colts are up or at most 3 pts down to the competition.  That just simply cannot keep happening.

Its not Lucks fault that a play that should have been blown dead wasn't.

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24 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sure he does......      sure he does......

 

I'm not sure where your hate for PFF comes from?      As Gavin has explained numerous times and provided links,  the guys who are doing the grading have been involved in football on a professional basis.    And a large number of NFL teams subscribe to them.       Why you think that doesn't give them some level of credibility is a completely mystery.

 

This isn't to say that they're completely right.     Grading is subjective.    Different people will see the same thing differently.      But for you to say they have no credibility and no authority is completely and demonstrably false.

 

 

the guys grading were involved in football on a professional basis?  yeah right.  that is not true.  i mean maybe they were technically employed by a high school team as the gatorade boy.  i guess that would technically be "professionally involved in football"

 

a large number of teams subscribing to them means what?  that they glance over how many times a wr is lined up in the slot as opposed to outside.  sure i might buy that.  that they, being a billion dollar corporation, kicks the tires on all kinds of information out there that is had cheaply?  sure i might buy that.  

 

all you need to know is this.  real football guys, like bill belicheck, bill polian, and many others will tell you that you cannot grade the players based on just watching the games.  you can't assign a player an accurate grade without knowing their assignments and what went on before the snap.  you have to know the playcall.  an olinman screws up.  did you hear the protection call from the center?  maybe it wasn't his screw up.  

 

if you like grades from PFF, then you just want a numerical value to something and don't care if it is correct.  you just want that number.  if the information isn't correct, it is worthless.  think about that. for example: you are just happy to have directions somewhere despite the fact it doesn't get you to your destination.  you are just happy someone told you where to go.  it is sad really

 

not to mention they don't even grade using the all 22.  they grade a safety without even being able to see him on the field at times.  does that make sense to you?  they grade a cb badly for giving up a completion even though he was coached to do so.  does that make sense to you?  do they factor in down and distance into the grades?  coaches do.  

 

PFF grades are a joke.  and collinsworth should be ashamed of himself for putting his name to their brand and promoting that kind of foolishness for a dollar.  where is the integrity in that?

 

but feel free driving around in circles happy because you have directions to look at.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't know why you and others are blaming the coaches.....  (other than for clock management...)

 

We were without........

 

Langford and Anderson and Jones on the DL

 

And we were without Davis and Geathers in the D-backfield to start the game,  and then lost Robinson and Green early in the game.      I think we may have also been missing a linebacker somewhere....

 

And some of our replacements were just brought in off the street days before and were forced to start.

 

It was insane.

 

Did we mismanage the clock at the end?     Yes,  I think so.    But in terms of the entire game,  we were an overmatched opponent.      I'm surprised Detroit didn't score on every drive.

 

Yes, epic injuries.  Yet, 11 guys played and someone still coached them....and we are able to evaluate those coaching decisions separately.  This is especially true in game decided by a field goal.  

 

It's a game that the players played well enough to win...at least for my money.

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13 hours ago, theanarchist said:

Well they have Cam Newton #1 and he has 5 picks and 1 fumble vs 5 TD passes. They have Luck 2nd who has 2 picks and 2 fumbles vs 6 TD passes so I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Yeah, I don't get Cam being #1 :scratch:

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28 minutes ago, Gramz said:

Yeah, I don't get Cam being #1 :scratch:

The media loves him, I mean they really do. He is outgoing/controversial and Andrew is conservative, the media likes outgoing/controversial. If you look at Andrew's 2014 Season it was pretty much just as great as Cam's season last year and Cam ran away with the MVP and If I remember right Andrew wasn't even in the Top 5 in voting in 2014. Andrew had more TD passes and Yards Passing and won 11 games without a run game and not near the Defense Cam had helping him last season. Just the way it is. Cam has actually been the Turnover machine this season with 5 picks already while Andrew only has 2 picks in 3 games.

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2 hours ago, ztboiler said:

Yes, epic injuries.  Yet, 11 guys played and someone still coached them....and we are able to evaluate those coaching decisions separately.  This is especially true in game decided by a field goal.  

 

It's a game that the players played well enough to win...at least for my money.

 

So,  here's another way to look at it......    in a game where the Colts probably should've been blown out because of "epic injuries" they somehow managed to almost win.

 

Perhaps instead of looking at it as a coaching failure,  you might see it as a good coaching effort by our staff to keep it as close as we did?

 

Just food for thought.......

 

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3 hours ago, dudeski said:

the guys grading were involved in football on a professional basis?  yeah right.  that is not true.  i mean maybe they were technically employed by a high school team as the gatorade boy.  i guess that would technically be "professionally involved in football"

 

a large number of teams subscribing to them means what?  that they glance over how many times a wr is lined up in the slot as opposed to outside.  sure i might buy that.  that they, being a billion dollar corporation, kicks the tires on all kinds of information out there that is had cheaply?  sure i might buy that.  

 

all you need to know is this.  real football guys, like bill belicheck, bill polian, and many others will tell you that you cannot grade the players based on just watching the games.  you can't assign a player an accurate grade without knowing their assignments and what went on before the snap.  you have to know the playcall.  an olinman screws up.  did you hear the protection call from the center?  maybe it wasn't his screw up.  

 

if you like grades from PFF, then you just want a numerical value to something and don't care if it is correct.  you just want that number.  if the information isn't correct, it is worthless.  think about that. for example: you are just happy to have directions somewhere despite the fact it doesn't get you to your destination.  you are just happy someone told you where to go.  it is sad really

 

not to mention they don't even grade using the all 22.  they grade a safety without even being able to see him on the field at times.  does that make sense to you?  they grade a cb badly for giving up a completion even though he was coached to do so.  does that make sense to you?  do they factor in down and distance into the grades?  coaches do.  

 

PFF grades are a joke.  and collinsworth should be ashamed of himself for putting his name to their brand and promoting that kind of foolishness for a dollar.  where is the integrity in that?

 

but feel free driving around in circles happy because you have directions to look at.  

 

 

 

I'm not saying they're a be all and end all for grades.     The only grades that truly count are the grades from the coaching staff.

 

But they're a tool.....   and since NFL people have their own internal grades,  the idea that they're paying for crap from people who don't know anything is pretty much laughable.      The NFL and their teams don't part with money easily.      

 

Your free to think what you want.    But the idea that PFF's work isn't worth anything is simply your opinion.

 

The facts support anther view.....

 

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3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

So,  here's another way to look at it......    in a game where the Colts probably should've been blown out because of "epic injuries" they somehow managed to almost win.

 

Perhaps instead of looking at it as a coaching failure,  you might see it as a good coaching effort by our staff to keep it as close as we did?

 

Just food for thought.......

 

That food is McDonalds.  That's how bad it is

 

lets face reality.  Pagano is a bad coach 

 

 

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1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I'm not saying they're a be all and end all for grades.     The only grades that truly count are the grades from the coaching staff.

 

But they're a tool.....   and since NFL people have their own internal grades,  the idea that they're paying for crap from people who don't know anything is pretty much laughable.      The NFL and their teams don't part with money easily.      

 

Your free to think what you want.    But the idea that PFF's work isn't worth anything is simply your opinion.

 

The facts support anther view.....

 

No nfl team pays for their grades.  Not sure why you are having a hard time understanding that.  

 

Pff grades are not a tool.  It is incorrect information.  a hammer is a tool.  It has a use.  Pff grades do not.  

 

 

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29 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

So,  here's another way to look at it......    in a game where the Colts probably should've been blown out because of "epic injuries" they somehow managed to almost win.

 

Perhaps instead of looking at it as a coaching failure,  you might see it as a good coaching effort by our staff to keep it as close as we did?

 

Just food for thought.......

 

In general, you're right. We did well with what we generally had to work with.  But, in specific, there is other evidence to weigh, and all of those generalities ring hollow in the face of specific tactical choices that should have closed that game out.

 

It's not that big of a deal, losses can be attributed to coaching decisions specifically every week...sometimes even to HOF worthy coaches, and it's part of the gig.  

 

Most of the time, Pagano has gotten it right and Luck has closed a high percentage.  No excuses are needed, and nobody needs to be fired....that was a winnable game in the coach's hands.

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2 hours ago, aaron11 said:

to be fair, a lot of calls are not an exact science

 

forward progress can be a tricky one, especially when its the QB and he's behind the los. 

Oh I agree theres no doubt about that. But Lucks forward progress was stopped for a good 2 or 3 seconds. Usually those plays are blown dead. 

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He's played pretty well so far. Really should have 2 game winning drives to his credit in 3 games if the D could have held the Lions.  The int last week was the worst play he's had this season.  I don't blame him at all for the fumble. I listened to Rick Venturi break that entire play down the other day and that was not his fault and the play probably should have been blown dead anyway. I can excuse that play but the INT was bad . I've noticed those plays where he just throws it up for grabs though have came wayyy down so far this season. He's been better at throwing it away too like he did last week.

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17 hours ago, ÅÐØNϧ 1 said:

 

Skippy was a huge Peyton Manning fan and it clouds his judgement he actuall said he thought RG3 was better & that Peyton Manning would have led the Colts back to the SB his last 3 years had he remained a Colt  how stupid is that IMO 18 would not have survived the regular season Andrew Luck because of his size strength & running ability made the Colts a 11-5 team those 3 seasons with Peyton would have been running for his life . 

 

The Colts were not the Broncos & that defense in Denver deserves alot of credit for 18's success in his final years not to even mention there O-line that helped Tim Tebow win a playoff game .

 

Here's lil Skippy the Troll showing you he don't know diddly .

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/11871368/do-not-hate-andrew-luck

Skip has never been a Peyton or Colts fan. He constantly called Peyton a choker while he was here. Noting that he choked in college against Florida as well.  He only recently became a Peyton "fan" after the Colts released him because that gave him a major story to hang his hat on and continue to hate on the Colts & Indy for choosing Luck over Peyton. He still praises Peyton with the backhanded compliment "the greatest regular season quarterback"...  Whoever the biggest stars are and whatever the consensus feelings about them are, he'll play the contrarian just to garner attention...  His fame grew off of his attacks on Lebron. Then he moved on to Mayweather and now it's Luck.  Search for the next "can't miss star" and you'll find Skip putting him/her down to boost his on Q rating off of their name. 

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4 hours ago, dudeski said:

That food is McDonalds.  That's how bad it is

 

lets face reality.  Pagano is a bad coach 

 

 

 

We live in different worlds......

 

There's nothing on his resume that says Pagano is a bad coach.     Nothing.

 

In fact,  his 8-8 season last year,  is probably one of the best coaching jobs anyone has ever done.

 

Again,  you have lots of opinion.....   and basically no facts.

 

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3 hours ago, ztboiler said:

In general, you're right. We did well with what we generally had to work with.  But, in specific, there is other evidence to weigh, and all of those generalities ring hollow in the face of specific tactical choices that should have closed that game out.

 

It's not that big of a deal, losses can be attributed to coaching decisions specifically every week...sometimes even to HOF worthy coaches, and it's part of the gig.  

 

Most of the time, Pagano has gotten it right and Luck has closed a high percentage.  No excuses are needed, and nobody needs to be fired....that was a winnable game in the coach's hands.

 

If Chuck had handled the clock right at the end of the game,  then yes....    a winnable game.

 

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

If Chuck had handled the clock right at the end of the game,  then yes....    a winnable game.

 

 

Luck did his job & put the Colts in a position to Win , And your 100 % correct Chuckles blew it & what really * me off about it was his words when asked he said Quote " If I had it to do over I would do it exactly the same way "  

That IMHO is beyond silly if your gonna be a hard head & not learn from your mistakes it does not bode well for the future ..:wall:

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2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

We live in different worlds......

 

There's nothing on his resume that says Pagano is a bad coach.     Nothing.

 

In fact,  his 8-8 season last year,  is probably one of the best coaching jobs anyone has ever done.

 

Again,  you have lots of opinion.....   and basically no facts.

 

He is a defensive coach that has a bad defense every year.  That's on his résumé.  

 

The constant slow starts, constant misuse of timeouts and the clock, getting blown out in games constantly, and let's not forget a certain special teams play 

 

We must live in different worlds because pagano has shown time and time again that he is in over his head.

 

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22 minutes ago, dudeski said:

He is a defensive coach that has a bad defense every year.  That's on his résumé.  

 

The constant slow starts, constant misuse of timeouts and the clock, getting blown out in games constantly, and let's not forget a certain special teams play 

 

We must live in different worlds because pagano has shown time and time again that he is in over his head.

 

 

The defense is lack of personnel.

 

The slow starts is on the non-existing running game....   personnel,  the line and the RB's....

 

Bottom line:   11 wins in each of his first three years....   one year further into the playoffs his first three years.   And 8-8 with 5 different QB's last year.       THAT'S his resume.

 

Again.....     NOTHING says he's a bad coach.

 

Now,  you can make an argument over being an average coach....   or poor in certain areas....   but on balance,  there's nothing that says bad coach.      And the word around the NFL at the end of last season, was that if Irsay had fired Pagano,  teams were lining up to hire him.      That was from NFL.com

 

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Pagano has made mistakes especially in the loss to the Lions but to be totally fair he coaches he does'nt control personnel the GM shops for the groceries ..

 

"If I'm going to be asked to cook the meal, I'd like to be able to pick the groceries."
~ Bill Parcells

:hat:  I will say this he needs to learn from his mistakes that he does control .

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11 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

The media loves him, I mean they really do. He is outgoing/controversial and Andrew is conservative, the media likes outgoing/controversial. If you look at Andrew's 2014 Season it was pretty much just as great as Cam's season last year and Cam ran away with the MVP and If I remember right Andrew wasn't even in the Top 5 in voting in 2014. Andrew had more TD passes and Yards Passing and won 11 games without a run game and not near the Defense Cam had helping him last season. Just the way it is. Cam has actually been the Turnover machine this season with 5 picks already while Andrew only has 2 picks in 3 games.

Three big differences between Cam last season and Luck in 2014.

1. Cam put up those stats without his #1 receiver and with a receiving corp (outside of Olsen) that is honestly abysmal.

2. Cam put up those numbers AND was #2 on the team in rushing and #1 on the team in rushing TDs.  He accounted for way more of the total offense than Luck did in 2014.

3. 15-1.  I know, I know, the defense.  But still..................15-1.

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2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Bottom line:   11 wins in each of his first three years....   one year further into the playoffs his first three years.   And 8-8 with 5 different QB's last year.       THAT'S his resume.

 

Again.....     NOTHING says he's a bad coach.

Well what is his record outside of the weak AFC South?  How many times has he lost us games due to poor clock management?  How many defensive players has he developed into consistent starters?  How many later picks (5th to UDFA) does he develop into contributing talent?

 

To me that is the mark of a good coach.  Pagano has basically hopped on Luck's back and gone for the ride.  I don't know if Luck has even progressed in his development.  Is he better than when he was a rookie outside of just mere experience?

 

To me good/great coaches get something out of guys or find a way to work what they have into their game plan.  Thats why IMO the team was no different under Arians than under Pagano.  Pagano is a defensive guy and more specifically a secondary guy.  I just don't see it.  He has not developed one single guy.  Vontae was great when we got him.  Mike Adams as well.  Toler, Butler, Brown, Landry, Guy, Gordy, Purifoy, Vaughn, Howell, Anderson, Lowery, Glover-Wright, etc.  He did not develop not one of those guys into a contributor.  That is alarming to me.

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9 minutes ago, tikyle said:

Well what is his record outside of the weak AFC South?  How many times has he lost us games due to poor clock management?  How many defensive players has he developed into consistent starters?  How many later picks (5th to UDFA) does he develop into contributing talent?

 

To me that is the mark of a good coach.  Pagano has basically hopped on Luck's back and gone for the ride.  I don't know if Luck has even progressed in his development.  Is he better than when he was a rookie outside of just mere experience?

 

To me good/great coaches get something out of guys or find a way to work what they have into their game plan.  Thats why IMO the team was no different under Arians than under Pagano.  Pagano is a defensive guy and more specifically a secondary guy.  I just don't see it.  He has not developed one single guy.  Vontae was great when we got him.  Mike Adams as well.  Toler, Butler, Brown, Landry, Guy, Gordy, Purifoy, Vaughn, Howell, Anderson, Lowery, Glover-Wright, etc.  He did not develop not one of those guys into a contributor.  That is alarming to me.

I actually think Vontae was struggling some when we got him. A late 1st rounder we got for a 2nd. Besides that, this post is deadly accurate and extremely scary to think about. The majority here know Pagano is awful, and you just explained why in great detail. Grigson isn't the problem and never has been, it's Pagano that isn't developing our players, especially Luck, who is just as good as when we drafted him in 2012.

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3 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I actually think Vontae was struggling some when we got him. A late 1st rounder we got for a 2nd. Besides that, this post is deadly accurate and extremely scary to think about. The majority here know Pagano is awful, and you just explained why in great detail. Grigson isn't the problem and never has been, it's Pagano that isn't developing our players, especially Luck, who is just as good as when we drafted him in 2012.

Not to get too into the weeds but Miami didn't use Vontae correctly (used him off coverage and more zone) and they were having a fire sale down there as well.  They let go of Sean Smith (excellent corner) right after Vontae as well and started over with Brent Grimes and Nolan Carroll.

 

But yes I echo you when you say it is quite scary.  I do blame Grigson though.  He has focused way too much on offense with our high picks.  To me that philosophy alone is just not the way to build a team in the modern NFL.  The rules favor the offensive player.  There are more offensive "stars" who aren't high draft picks vs. defensive "stars" who aren't high draft picks.  For every Richard Sherman (later pick standout CB) you have a few say Antonio Brown, TY Hilton, Keenan Allen, etc.  I may just be overlooking the mid to late round CBs but it seems like it's just harder overall to find great secondary players in rounds 3-7 than it is great receivers in those rounds.

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2 minutes ago, tikyle said:

Not to get too into the weeds but Miami didn't use Vontae correctly (used him off coverage and more zone) and they were having a fire sale down there as well.  They let go of Sean Smith (excellent corner) right after Vontae as well and started over with Brent Grimes and Nolan Carroll.

 

But yes I echo you when you say it is quite scary.  I do blame Grigson though.  He has focused way too much on offense with our high picks.  To me that philosophy alone is just not the way to build a team in the modern NFL.  The rules favor the offensive player.  There are more offensive "stars" who aren't high draft picks vs. defensive "stars" who aren't high draft picks.  For every Richard Sherman (later pick standout CB) you have a few say Antonio Brown, TY Hilton, Keenan Allen, etc.  I may just be overlooking the mid to late round CBs but it seems like it's just harder overall to find great secondary players in rounds 3-7 than it is great receivers in those rounds.

I do agree with that that the defensive players are harder to find. Grigson probably had a few mistakes in the draft like taking both Allen and Fleener in 2012 (needed something else at the time with a 2nd or 3rd), 2013 was a bust all together, (werner didn't fit the system, probably the only real mistake that he could of helped), 2014 was two big hits, also fine with the last two drafts besides D'Joun Smith (who should of been re-signed to the practice squad). I think he's been at least average to above average overall though. We just need an elite pass rusher or two. Pagano I don't think has the football IQ to gameplan and outsmart elite teams and elite coaches. He also isn't getting the best out of the team. The defense isn't improving and he's a defensive coach. I think we can consistently win the division for the rest of Luck's career if he stays healthy, but I don't think we'll ever win a SB with Pagano at the helm.

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18 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

 The defense isn't improving and he's a defensive coach. I think we can consistently win the division for the rest of Luck's career if he stays healthy, but I don't think we'll ever win a SB with Pagano at the helm.

I'm 100% with you but I would throw Grigson in there as well.  In four drafts he's drafted one pass rusher (who I agree didn't fit and was a total bust overall even in the 4-3).  When he took over this team we had pass rushing issues and he hasn't consistently tried to find solutions in the draft.  He's drafted like 50 O-lineman but one edge rusher.  I just can't trust a GM like that.  On the other end of the spectrum Elway drafted Shane Ray with his #1 pick even though he had Miller and Ware.  See how that's paying off.  Or Jerry Reese in NY when he had Strahan he still drafted Tuck and Osi and Kiwanuka.  Or even the GM in CAR having Hardy and Johnson but still drafting Ealy and Short.  You can never have too much pass rush.

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Just now, tikyle said:

 

I'm 100% with you but I would throw Grigson in there as well.  In four drafts he's drafted one pass rusher (who I agree didn't fit and was a total bust overall even in the 4-3).  When he took over this team we had pass rushing issues and he hasn't consistently tried to find solutions in the draft.  He's drafted like 50 O-lineman but one edge rusher.  I just can't trust a GM like that.  On the other end of the spectrum Elway drafted Shane Ray with his #1 pick even though he had Miller and Ware.  See how that's paying off.  Or Jerry Reese in NY when he had Strahan he still drafted Tuck and Osi and Kiwanuka.  Or even the GM in CAR having Hardy and Johnson but still drafting Ealy and Short.  You can never have too much pass rush.

Absolutely, I've said a few times on the forum, drafting defense is the way to win a SB. Elway did it right. I'm a bit biased towards Grigson because a lot of the picks he chose I was high on that hit. That doesn't mean you ignore the pass rush though. We're going to need to get a few of them next year.

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3 hours ago, tikyle said:

Well what is his record outside of the weak AFC South?  How many times has he lost us games due to poor clock management?  How many defensive players has he developed into consistent starters?  How many later picks (5th to UDFA) does he develop into contributing talent?

 

To me that is the mark of a good coach.  Pagano has basically hopped on Luck's back and gone for the ride.  I don't know if Luck has even progressed in his development.  Is he better than when he was a rookie outside of just mere experience?

 

To me good/great coaches get something out of guys or find a way to work what they have into their game plan.  Thats why IMO the team was no different under Arians than under Pagano.  Pagano is a defensive guy and more specifically a secondary guy.  I just don't see it.  He has not developed one single guy.  Vontae was great when we got him.  Mike Adams as well.  Toler, Butler, Brown, Landry, Guy, Gordy, Purifoy, Vaughn, Howell, Anderson, Lowery, Glover-Wright, etc.  He did not develop not one of those guys into a contributor.  That is alarming to me.

 

Outside of the AFC South,  I think Pagano is roughly 500.

 

Vonte wasn't great when we got him.    That's why Miami traded him.    Vonte is better,  Adams is better,  Butler is better,  Lowery was better...     Toler was good when he was healthy,  he just wasn't healthy very often.  

 

And the rest of these guys,  if you noticed,  they didn't do any better anywhere else they've gone.   A lot of Pagano's problems are PERSONNEL related,   that's on Grigson.

 

The clock management thing is bogus to me....    I started a thread right after the Detroit game where I agreed with everyone who said Pagano blew the game with clock management.     And lots of people ragged on Pgano for clock management and I asked what other games has Pagano lost with that problem?     And no one could list a single game.     Not one.       

 

So, as I noted to Dudeski,   you're making an argument that he's an average coach.    OK,  that's an argument.    But, as I noted,  there's no argument -- none -- that he's a bad coach.      Call him average,  that's your argument.     I get that you don't like him and that you don't like that Irsay re-hired him.     But there's no argument that he's a bad coach.

 

Luck isn't better?     Put that on Pep.    That's why he got fired mid-season.   

 

Oh,  and I couldn't help but notice that you didn't mention last year.   8-8 with 5 different QB's.    I'm not sure that has ever happened in the history of the NFL.      Ever.

 

Pagano can coach.

 

 

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2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Outside of the AFC South,  I think Pagano is roughly 500.

 

Vonte wasn't great when we got him.    That's why Miami traded him.    Vonte is better,  Adams is better,  Butler is better,  Lowery was better...     Toler was good when he was healthy,  he just wasn't healthy very often.  

 

And the rest of these guys,  if you noticed,  they didn't do any better anywhere else they've gone.   A lot of Pagano's problems are PERSONNEL related,   that's on Grigson.

 

The clock management thing is bogus to me....    I started a thread right after the Detroit game where I agreed with everyone who said Pagano blew the game with clock management.     And lots of people ragged on Pgano for clock management and I asked what other games has Pagano lost with that problem?     And no one could list a single game.     Not one.       

 

So, as I noted to Dudeski,   you're making an argument that he's an average coach.    OK,  that's an argument.    But, as I noted,  there's no argument -- none -- that he's a bad coach.      Call him average,  that's your argument.     I get that you don't like him and that you don't like that Irsay re-hired him.     But there's no argument that he's a bad coach.

 

Luck isn't better?     Put that on Pep.    That's why he got fired mid-season.   

 

Oh,  and I couldn't help but notice that you didn't mention last year.   8-8 with 5 different QB's.    I'm not sure that has ever happened in the history of the NFL.      Ever.

 

Pagano can coach.

 

 

Man you are delusional.

 

Vontae was not bad when we got him.  Miami had two great corners (Vontae and Sean Smith) that they got rid off.  Miami was having a fire sale.  Then you named a slew of dudes who "got better" yet are not here or have been getting roasted lately.  Mike Adams is the only guy you can even argue has gotten better since coming here.

 

Then you blame Pep for Luck not getting better.  That's a joke.  Pep didn't make Luck turn the ball over and Pep was running the same deep passes that Arians ran that had Luck getting hit a lot.  And when Luck had that glorious 40 TD year that everyone refers back to you weren't crying for Pep's head then.  But whatever you can have your scapegoat in Pep.

 

Then you argue Pagano is an average coach.  He's average to below average.  He has had multiple clock management issues.  That was just the most recent and glaring ones.  There has been many times that the Colts would score late in the fourth leaving too much time on the clock.  This one stood out the most because he called a TO to boot.

 

And you're bragging about 8-8 with 5 QBs.  But Houston went 9-7 with 4 QBs and actually won the division.  So you get no cookies for that one Pagano.

 

The mere fact that we have no returning talent in our secondary outside of Vontae (1st round pick we traded a 2nd round pick for) and Adams (35 year old journeyman) when Pagano has been here 4 years is an alarming fact.  He hasn't coached up ONE YOUNG GUY?  C'MON MAN!

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