Why is never the players' fault for stinking it up?

[braveheartcolt]

Does it always need to be the GM, the HC or the coaching? It's about time some of the players got the torching. Fed-up with all the non player bashing.

[Smash Mouth]

To me, its hard to criticize players that aren't talented enough to begin with.

[tikyle]

1 hour ago, braveheartcolt said:

Does it always need to be the GM, the HC or the coaching? It's about time some of the players got the torching. Fed-up with all the non player bashing.

Because fans worship the players and hate the coaches.

It was Pep's fault the Colts line couldn't block.  Now it's Chud's fault.

It was Manusky's fault the Colts had no pash rush.  Now it's Monachino's fault.

 

That's just most fans logic.  That's why fan is short for fanatic.

[FanFromtheWasteland]

Because the gm brought in the players.

[SilentHill]

2 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

Does it always need to be the GM, the HC or the coaching? It's about time some of the players got the torching. Fed-up with all the non player bashing.

 

It's hard to criticize players being bad when the GM evaluated the talent and brought them in.

 

It's either the players are physically unable to compete at the expected level or they are not getting the training to get to that level, so i'm sure you can see why it could be the players, coach or GM to blame, most people are taking the latter.

[Buck Showalter]

Well if the player stinks the GM is guilty by association right???

 

I blame the football gods, they are cursing the franchise for Suck for Luck...

 

[OffensivelyPC]

40 minutes ago, FanFromtheWasteland said:

Because the gm brought in the players.

And the coach tells them what to do.

 

To the OPs general point, I don't think anyone's absolving the players.  Let's be honest, there's enough blame to go around.

[MisterChadley]

Well , we have had two different conversations about whether or not Luck is overrated, pretty sure it's been determined that Sio Moore couldn't cover an ant with a king size comforter, and Reitz has been dodging torches and pitchforks since Sunday so I think we're equal opportunity critics around here.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

3 hours ago, SilentHill said:

 

It's hard to criticize players being bad when the GM evaluated the talent and brought them in.

 

 

I can only assume this is directed at the talent-level on defense, in which case I kind of have to disagree. Half of the guys that have been out there on defense the past 2 weeks were brought in off the streets just so we could have bodies on the field due to the state of our depleted and injured secondary. 5 starters returning this week should make a big difference. There was no talent evaluation of these guys, they were brought in and thrusted into action out of complete desperation.

 

I'm not saying that I expect this defense to all the sudden be elite come Sunday afternoon, but I think they'll at the very least be A LOT more fundamentally sound than the unit that's been out there these past 2 games, which should go a long way in making the D at least somewhat respectable. It should also give Monachino some flexibility in how he calls the game.

[SilentHill]

1 hour ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I can only assume this is directed at the talent-level on defense, in which case I kind of have to disagree. Half of the guys that have been out there on defense the past 2 weeks were brought in off the streets just so we could have bodies on the field due to the state of our depleted and injured secondary. 5 starters returning this week should make a big difference. There was no talent evaluation of these guys, they were brought in and thrusted into action out of complete desperation.

 

I'm not saying that I expect this defense to all the sudden be elite come Sunday afternoon, but I think they'll at the very least be A LOT more fundamentally sound than the unit that's been out there these past 2 games, which should go a long way in making the D at least somewhat respectable. It should also give Monachino some flexibility in how he calls the game.

 

I was just trying to explain the rationale. I'm very aware that some of he players we had on defense last week would currently be working at the grocery store if the Colts hadn't signed them.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

6 minutes ago, SilentHill said:

 

I was just trying to explain the rationale. I'm very aware that some of he players we had on defense last week would currently be working at the grocery store if the Colts hadn't signed them.

 

Most people know this, but I feel like it gets forgotten. And as far as not holding players accountable, I feel like we bash players on this forum PLENTY. 100s of threads have been dedicated to T-Rich, Landry, Werner, Satele, etc. Luck gets away with a lot, but I think that's because anyone with common sense knows that he's definitely not the source of the Colts issues, but when he has a bad game, I feel like most people around here acknowledge it.

[SilentHill]

41 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Most people know this, but I feel like it gets forgotten. And as far as not holding players accountable, I feel like we bash players on this forum PLENTY. 100s of threads have been dedicated to T-Rich, Landry, Werner, Satele, etc. Luck gets away with a lot, but I think that's because anyone with common sense knows that he's definitely not the source of the Colts issues, but when he has a bad game, I feel like most people around here acknowledge it.

 

Yea, and Greg Toler, lol

[Bluefire4]

I have said this same thing and hate that every little thing was put on coaching. For example on the Von Miller sack at the wnd of the game. Chud has now said that Reitz was suppose to have help but basically someone messed up. Players should have as much blame as the coaches.

[crazycolt1]

Could it be the coaching and playing in the NFL is a little harder than sitting on your couch thinking and saying you could do it better?

Using hindsight is pretty easy too.

 

[braveheartcolt]

2 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Most people know this, but I feel like it gets forgotten. And as far as not holding players accountable, I feel like we bash players on this forum PLENTY. 100s of threads have been dedicated to T-Rich, Landry, Werner, Satele, etc. Luck gets away with a lot, but I think that's because anyone with common sense knows that he's definitely not the source of the Colts issues, but when he has a bad game, I feel like most people around here acknowledge it.

Don't see any player sticky's at the top of the page however......

 

Also, the gap between college and the NFL is obviously significant, so having talent in college but not transforming it to the big league is more on the individual than the coaching. 

[21isSuperman]

The players are criticized, sometimes unjustly.  There were people last year saying we should trade Luck.  Greg Toler, Bjoern Werner, Trent Richardson, Jon Harrison, and many others have been criticized for poor performances.  Our main issues stem from the GM, in my opinion.  But that doesn't mean the other people haven't been criticized

[LockeDown]

I just read a Colts.com article on Ted Monachino wanting to use a 3 headed monster of Geathers, Adams and Green on the field at the same time.  Apparently, this has been his plan all along but has been waiting for them to all be healthy.  It's possibly the first time in a long time, I've heard a Colts coach creating new wrinkles in order to get an advantage on a team.   I hope it works.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, 21isSuperman said:

The players are criticized, sometimes unjustly.  There were people last year saying we should trade Luck.  Greg Toler, Bjoern Werner, Trent Richardson, Jon Harrison, and many others have been criticized for poor performances.  Our main issues stem from the GM, in my opinion.  But that doesn't mean the other people haven't been criticized

Sometimes some are so quick to criticize a player without giving credit to the other teams player for making a good play. It's never that players made a good play, it's always the Colts player sucked.

[21isSuperman]

9 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Sometimes some are so quick to criticize a player without giving credit to the other teams player for making a good play. It's never that players made a good play, it's always the Colts player sucked.

Depends on the situation

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Sometimes some are so quick to criticize a player without giving credit to the other teams player for making a good play. It's never that players made a good play, it's always the Colts player sucked.

I agree. Denver makes most QB's look bad, even Brady last year and Cam twice. Despite Luck struggling we still had the ball with a chance to win late in the game.

[aaron11]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

 it's always the Colts player sucked.

i think that would be a fair analysis of the lions game, but not the denver game

 

i know their offense has been hot, but Detroit did not do anything special in week one.  they kept throwing to the RB becasue the defense never proved they could stop it

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, aaron11 said:

i think that would be a fair analysis of the lions game, but not the denver game

 

i know their offense has been hot, but Detroit did not do anything special in week one.  they kept throwing to the RB becasue the defense never proved they could stop it

They didn't have the personnel at the key positions to stop the Lions but not the whole Colt team. It's comments just like that to what I was referring to.

[southwest1]

6 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Could it be the coaching and playing in the NFL is a little harder than sitting on your couch thinking and saying you could do it better?

Using hindsight is pretty easy too.

 

I always kick caboose on Madden. You mean it's not that simple? Son of a...Just Joking! Your point is well taken. I'm a good card player for example until real money gets thrown on the table & then I suck. So yeah, when it's not my skin in the game literally; I'm not bad...But, once real stakes enter the equation: my shortcomings come to the forefront rather quickly. 

[southwest1]

15 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

Does it always need to be the GM, the HC or the coaching? It's about time some of the players got the torching. Fed-up with all the non player bashing.

I get it BHC. Players have to execute on their own under the lights. All coaches & coordinators can do is devise game plans, make halftime adjustments, & manage timeouts & challenges well. Everything else is determined by athletes catching, blocking, & knowing when the hades to get out of bonds. Are you listening Terrence Williams? LOL! 

 

Not all of INDY's losses are entirely Chuck Pagano's fault. Touche. You're absolutely right BHC. 

[RockThatBlue]

Pretty simple. The GM brings in the players, and the coaches are responsible for coaching up the players.

[gacoop1]

You can bring in ordinary players if you know how to coach em, motivate them, praise them.  

 

Learn from Saban, Belichick, Parcells, just to name a few....Let's get with the program Pagano and Grigson, or your going to get cut someday...

[crazycolt1]

53 minutes ago, gacoop1 said:

You can bring in ordinary players if you know how to coach em, motivate them, praise them.  

 

Learn from Saban, Belichick, Parcells, just to name a few....Let's get with the program Pagano and Grigson, or your going to get cut someday...

Saban's NFL record with Miami was 15-17 and lied to everyone about not being interested in the Alabama job.

Using Saban as an example as a NFL coach makes no sense.

[braveheartcolt]

4 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

Pretty simple. The GM brings in the players, and the coaches are responsible for coaching up the players.

So no accountability on the players. If they don't perform, it's someone else's fault. Doesn't seem right to me.....

 

[GoBlue12]

7 hours ago, gacoop1 said:

You can bring in ordinary players if you know how to coach em, motivate them, praise them.  

 

Learn from Saban, Belichick, Parcells, just to name a few....Let's get with the program Pagano and Grigson, or your going to get cut someday...

I'd leave Saban out of this list. He is not faced with coaching up ordinary players. If you aren't 5 star out of high school, your not rolling with the tide.

[Valpo2004]

4 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

So no accountability on the players. If they don't perform, it's someone else's fault. Doesn't seem right to me.....

 

 

It's the coaches job to hold the players accountable and the GM's job to pick those players.  

 

Being mad at an individual player, releasing him and replacing him can potentially fix a problem at his spot in the lineup.  Of course GM's and coaches are suppose to see these individual problems and get them fixed.

 

On the otherhand when you have wide-spread problems on an entire side of the ball or across the whole team then the failure needs to be pinned on coaching staff or GM.  

 

If the problem is "Toler can't cover" then blame Toler and push for him to be replaced.

 

If the problem is "The offense can't score in the first half and the defense can't tackle or cover." then that's a coaching/GM issue.

 

There is also the issue of recognizing when your opponent has a huge advantage in one particular matchup and doing what you can to neutralize that advantage.  For example when you recognize that Von Miller has a massive advantage over Joe Reitz then you try to neutralize that by either chipping him or straight up double teaming him.  Yes that slows down what you want to do on offense but Von Miller sacking your quarterback puts you at a dead halt.  

 

Now we could say that Joe Reitz is the problem and in a sense maybe we can say we need improvement there.  But the issue of course is that Von Miller does that stuff to linemen that are far better players then Joe Reitz.  So we could blame Joe Reitz but if we're reasonable people we know Joe Reitz's ceiling and we know that his ceiling isn't anything close to "shutting down Von Miller" caliber.  So you either make coaching decisions to help him out or you let Von Miller beat the crap out of Andrew Luck, lose the game, potentially injure Andrew Luck and make yourself feel better by blaming Joe Reitz.  But then again doing that doesn't give you a better chance of winning.  

[braveheartcolt]

2 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

It's the coaches job to hold the players accountable and the GM's job to pick those players.  

 

Being mad at an individual player, releasing him and replacing him can potentially fix a problem at his spot in the lineup.  Of course GM's and coaches are suppose to see these individual problems and get them fixed.

 

On the otherhand when you have wide-spread problems on an entire side of the ball or across the whole team then the failure needs to be pinned on coaching staff or GM.  

 

If the problem is "Toler can't cover" then blame Toler and push for him to be replaced.

 

If the problem is "The offense can't score in the first half and the defense can't tackle or cover." then that's a coaching/GM issue.

 

There is also the issue of recognizing when your opponent has a huge advantage in one particular matchup and doing what you can to neutralize that advantage.  For example when you recognize that Von Miller has a massive advantage over Joe Reitz then you try to neutralize that by either chipping him or straight up double teaming him.  Yes that slows down what you want to do on offense but Von Miller sacking your quarterback puts you at a dead halt.  

 

Now we could say that Joe Reitz is the problem and in a sense maybe we can say we need improvement there.  But the issue of course is that Von Miller does that stuff to linemen that are far better players then Joe Reitz.  So we could blame Joe Reitz but if we're reasonable people we know Joe Reitz's ceiling and we know that his ceiling isn't anything close to "shutting down Von Miller" caliber.  So you either make coaching decisions to help him out or you let Von Miller beat the crap out of Andrew Luck, lose the game, potentially injure Andrew Luck and make yourself feel better by blaming Joe Reitz.  But then again doing that doesn't give you a better chance of winning.  

Plenty (good) words to say the same baloney. "Just catch the freakin ball, will you"....or is that on the coaches as well. They didn't teach him how to catch a ball properly, even although he's been playing the game for 15 years.......

[Gavin]

9 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

Plenty (good) words to say the same baloney. "Just catch the freakin ball, will you"....or is that on the coaches as well. They didn't teach him how to catch a ball properly, even although he's been playing the game for 15 years.......

That's where statistics come in and past performance which is 1 indicator involved in picking up a player by far not the only one of course. Take DHB for example who had a history of dropping lots of balls particularly when wide open. Now there is a slight chance all that goes away when Grigson brought him in and given his measurable he was worth that shot but it was no secret he was going to drop some catches that a wr should catch. Most likely that was not going to go away. It didn't. It actually got so bad we turned him into a blocker.

 

Mike Mcglynn/Samson Satele and Trent Richardson all were the same way. What I think is going on here (and its affected the way we draft I think) is that if you listen to Grigson interviews after bringing in a player he often talks about things like Speed/Size/Strength and less about awareness/instincts/play recognition/fundamentals. Some but less. Our draft even reflected that this past year outside of our first pick Kelly

[NewColtsFan]

16 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

So no accountability on the players. If they don't perform, it's someone else's fault. Doesn't seem right to me.....

 

 

I don't know why you think there's no accountability for the players?

 

If they don't perform they get cut, or they're not offered new contracts.     That's about as accountable as it gets.

 

If you're simply saying why aren't the coaches and Grigson publicly ripping the players during the season,  they don't believe that's the best way to get the most out of your players.      Players get criticized,  it's just not done publicly.    It's done privately behind closed doors.

 

And since our players mostly play hard and smart,  then I think their view is valid.      We don't have enough talent,  we win because typically we play hard and smart.

 

[ReMeDy]

On 9/22/2016 at 10:01 AM, Smash Mouth said:

To me, its hard to criticize players that aren't talented enough to begin with.

 

Kind of like blaming a baby for the fact it's candy got stolen. Guys, these teams are stealing our candy -- we need to punch back!

[braveheartcolt]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't know why you think there's no accountability for the players?

 

If they don't perform they get cut, or they're not offered new contracts.     That's about as accountable as it gets.

 

If you're simply saying why aren't the coaches and Grigson publicly ripping the players during the season,  they don't believe that's the best way to get the most out of your players.      Players get criticized,  it's just not done publicly.    It's done privately behind closed doors.

 

And since our players mostly play hard and smart,  then I think their view is valid.      We don't have enough talent,  we win because typically we play hard and smart.

 

Not saying any of that. My point was the majority on here just slag off the back office, and don't seem to position any criticism at the players. It was also a generalisation. 

[NewColtsFan]

34 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

Not saying any of that. My point was the majority on here just slag off the back office, and don't seem to position any criticism at the players. It was also a generalisation. 

 

Oh....    Ok.       Fair enough.       Thanks for the clarification.

 

I assume you'll be at the Colts-Jags game in about 8 days or so?

 

 

[Revala]

Players get flak. Coaches handle the players so in turn they get slightly more flak. Front office gets even  more flak because they bring in the  players and coaches. So if they the team doesn't measure up people question the one's making the decisions. That's why there is a Grigson complaints thread is a sticky and not a TY Hilton complaints thread. Its also doesn't help Pagano having the Patriots stomp over everybody with average players simply because of coaching. Hope that gives you some perspective. 

[braveheartcolt]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Oh....    Ok.       Fair enough.       Thanks for the clarification.

 

I assume you'll be at the Colts-Jags game in about 8 days or so?

 

 

Hope so NFC. Thanks for asking. Wife broke her ankle last week wnd seeing the surgeon on Monday. All being well, I will be going!

[jskinnz]

On September 22, 2016 at 8:29 AM, braveheartcolt said:

Does it always need to be the GM, the HC or the coaching? It's about time some of the players got the torching. Fed-up with all the non player bashing.

 

Interesting discussion.  Kind of like the chicken and the egg debate.  

 

I work in publishing and the saying that an old boss of mine used was a book was either "an editorial success or a sales failure."  I guess it is all about your perspective.

 

Personally I think Grigson has done a good job in his time here but there are undoubtedly some swings and misses - maybe more than his fair share.

 

I also think Pagano has done a really good job as well but I think you can reasonably make the case that he lacks in game management and I think has been overmatched strategically as well.

 

And player have to make plays and despite the injuries and other circumstances, they have not made nearly enough.

 

Long way of saying there is enough blame to be shared by all.

 

PS - hope your wife is back on her feet soon.

 

[braveheartcolt]

1 hour ago, jskinnz said:

 

Interesting discussion.  Kind of like the chicken and the egg debate.  

 

I work in publishing and the saying that an old boss of mine used was a book was either "an editorial success or a sales failure."  I guess it is all about your perspective.

 

Personally I think Grigson has done a good job in his time here but there are undoubtedly some swings and misses - maybe more than his fair share.

 

I also think Pagano has done a really good job as well but I think you can reasonably make the case that he lacks in game management and I think has been overmatched strategically as well.

 

And player have to make plays and despite the injuries and other circumstances, they have not made nearly enough.

 

Long way of saying there is enough blame to be shared by all.

 

PS - hope your wife is back on her feet soon.

 

Aye, you speak a lot of sense there John. Wife seeing surgeon on Monday, hopefully to operate if the swelling has gone down. Still hoping to fly to London to see my Colts. Hope all is well your end....I still owe you a beer!