Zones and playing off will not work vs Rivers

[Superman]

42 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Thank you for the break down, the way you explain it makes it sound like we could run a number of very different plays out of the one look, depending on how versatile our guys are. But that's the underlying kicker for any formation really. Talent trumps all.  

 

I think I was more going along the lines of thinking of throwing out a 3-3-5 on 1st/2nd downs and pretty much swapping out MLB for the safety on the assumption that if the safety can be nearly as good against the run, the hopeful benefit is they can cover the middle better than what we've had the last few seasons. Depends on how Geathers/Green develop in the short term I guess.

 

Do you think this is the way things are going more and more now? The extinction of the traditional thumpers at middle backer to be replaced by big safety/small linebacker types of players. It's not exactly a new idea I know.

 

Yup, talent trumps all. Doesn't really matter what package you have if you don't have good players. 

 

As for this being the way the game will go moving forward, I don't think so. A lot of Colts media and bloggers freak out every time Pagano talks about being able to run the ball, but think about if defenses start really embracing this hybrid backer/safety position and using players like Chancellor and Bucannon instead of traditional LBers on early downs. You'd be smart to be able to pound the ball consistently, because you'd force their best players off the field, or at least out of that hybrid position. Then you get a traditional LB group back on the field, and you work the middle with the passing game.

 

So I don't see it being anything more than a trend, with exceptions for really special players. Go back to Derrick Brooks, who was considered undersized for a traditional LBer. He converted from safety in college. I think Dungy hoped Cato June would be able to play his role for the Colts... The difference is that Brooks was incredibly talented, and June was a JAG. You get a special player on the field, and you can find ways to make him work, if you have the right staff. You can just take any old safety and tell him to play that hybrid backer role and think it's going to work out well, IMO.

[Rally5]

16 hours ago, Superman said:

It's all about the middle of the field, IMO. The Chargers don't really have any outside weapons, with Keenan Allen out (I say that now, but watch Dontrelle Inman go off on Sunday...) Their threats work the middle of the field, and of course they'll throw screens.  And that will be smart on their part, because a) the Colts suck at covering the middle of the field, and b) the Colts haven't tackled well through two games. 

 

Let's be optimistic and say Davis and Robinson are back, and we put Robinson in the slot mostly with Cromartie and Davis on the outside. What do we do about covering the middle? The same zone stuff we've been doing for four years, right? The Chargers abused that the last time they played in 2013, over and over again. Doesn't even matter if Mathis and Langford are 100%, if Anderson comes back and plays well, whatever. They can't fix the middle coverage.

 

So, to me, the key is Geathers, and maybe Green. IF those two guys can patrol the short areas in the middle, allowing the ILBs to flare out a little bit to cover the flats, and IF the second level tackles even reasonably well, and IF there's even a little pass rush, and IF the outside coverage plays somewhat well... IF all that happens, then maybe you can avoid being carved up by the Chargers. Might even get a couple turnovers out of them. Having a safety come down periodically would also take them out of some run plays, which is typically a good thing for the defense (but I'm not sure for this defense).

 

I agree with chad72 that the Colts can't sit back in weak zones and give up 7 yard cushions all game. There will be times where that's appropriate, and again, tackling will be critical even then. But I don't think it matters what you do on the outside if you're soft up the middle. 

 

Agree, pressure Rivers right up the belly, A gap blitz him if we can go man (imagine a healthy Davis, Cromartie, Butler and Robinson someday)...anyway as for today, don't give Rivers time, get him off his spot, and disrupt receiver routes.  He's as immobile as immobile gets, he will pick us to pieces with time to throw, We can't generate edge pressure which leaves us belly busters, send the Mike because they can't cover anyway and lean on the safeties.   They'll counter with screens which can be a problem for us to but pick your poison....

[krunk]

 

 

---

  Chargers | Antonio Gates not on the field    Thu Sep 22, 02:23 PM

San Diego Chargers TE Antonio Gates (hamstring) is not participating in practice Thursday, Sept. 22.

 

Footballguys view: Given the state of the receivers in San Diego, we think Gates starts to pick up steam this week. He's a low-end TE1, and safer as a TE2 play given the last two weeks, but his upside is nice.

 

Link to story

[krunk]

                                                 10m

Kevin Bowen @KBowenColts

Doesn?t look like the No. 3 overall pick this year will make his NFL debut on Sunday https://t.co/OgPszodOnd

 

Joey Bosa

[krunk]

                                                 31m

Vontae Davis @vontaedavis

#TBT can NOT wait to get back out there!! #ForTheShoe https://t.co/YL53EUN3hW

Retweeted by Kevin Bowen

[krunk]

Kevin Bowen @KBowenColts

Not one #Colts defensive starter missed today?s practice due to injury. Cant say that has been said in a long, long time.

[SteelCityColt]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Yup, talent trumps all. Doesn't really matter what package you have if you don't have good players. 

 

 

I tend to agree, the history of the NFL has been a continual cycle of evolution on both sides of the ball. Something new comes along and blows the barn doors off for a while, until people get enough film and enough time to break it down and work out how to counter it. That's why i was never got the panic about the read option and how it was going to be unstoppable. As wiser heads predicted it just mean exposing your QB to bigger meaner guys than they were typically used to facing in college and if you want someone to be the guy for a good few years getting him smacked around isn't the best policy. 

 

Interesting that you bring Chancellor up, as we got a prime example of how one of the new breed safety was physically dominated by a RB (Elliot in the preseason). True they have the line and he's a very talented back in my opinion. 

 

Goes back to what you were saying, get the talent first and then work out how to best use their skill sets. That's been the issue for the Colts, even when do seem to pick up good prospects or FAs they get banged up. That and we've not had a Moncrief/Hilton say on the D side of the ball (lower round pick with the possibility of being a real game changer). I'm optimistic that might change though with the picks made in the last 2 drafts. 

[chad72]

1 hour ago, Rally5 said:

Agree, pressure Rivers right up the belly, A gap blitz him if we can go man (imagine a healthy Davis, Cromartie, Butler and Robinson someday)...anyway as for today, don't give Rivers time, get him off his spot, and disrupt receiver routes.  He's as immobile as immobile gets, he will pick us to pieces with time to throw, We can't generate edge pressure which leaves us belly busters, send the Mike because they can't cover anyway and lean on the safeties.   They'll counter with screens which can be a problem for us to but pick your poison....

 

Yep.

 

I remember the 2014 Patriots vs Chargers game like yesterday. With Rivers, they made sure to make the sure tackle when he dumped it off underneath by playing good coverage. Patriots played good D and stayed patient. They got more 3 and outs than sacks on Rivers by tackling well. Hopefully, with our 3 safety looks, tackling gets better. Then, they sent Edelman on a crossing route for YAC that he turned into a 60 plus yard TD. We have to use a lot of motion to get our smaller wide outs free in space, have to in order to get big plays. Just doing comebacks and go routes won't work.

 

John Pagano likes to fake a lot of A gap blitzes and all out blitzes and backing off. He will play Luck like he played Russell Wilson a few years ago when they beat the Seahawks in SD in 2014, contain him in a pocket with a spy and play coverage on the rest on 3rd downs, and not over pursue and let Luck have any large runs because he does not have 3 good man CBs like the Broncos (nobody does, might do man only with Jason Verrett). Packers used the same game plan on Russell Wilson with better personnel and almost won in the NFCCG in 2014. Luck should stay patient and we should call some draw run plays out of shot gun on 3rd and 4 or less without panicking and resorting to throwing all the time. Luck should give a chance for the Ferguson, Doyle kinds to give small YAC possibilities to move the chains, and not always look up field every time. Remember how Flacco's 4th & 29 miraculously happened vs the Chargers with a dump off to Ray Rice??? Dump offs with YAC, do not underestimate their value.

[krunk]

Source: the CB-needy Saints worked out former former Colts CB D'Joun Smith. He was a 2015 3rd round pick.

— Field Yates (@FieldYates) Sep 22, 2016

[chad72]

1 minute ago, krunk said:

Source: the CB-needy Saints worked out former former Colts CB D'Joun Smith. He was a 2015 3rd round pick.

— Field Yates (@FieldYates) Sep 22, 2016

 

 if he is signed by them. If it was an attitude issue and not a performance issue, a different place works for certain players. However, Sean Payton is a no-nonsense guy and will have very little patience for attitude without grasping the playbook or showing some performance.

[will426]

i understand we have no corners so the DC decides to play zone but you're taking chances in zone and were failing terribly...id take the risk of press man cuz it knocks ppl off routes and gives the pass rush a split second to come forward  I mean idc if you're picked off the street it's not too hard to attempt to Jam and run side  by side someone 

[oldunclemark]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 8:47 AM, chad72 said:

This Chargers game will be about Luck keeping Rivers on the sidelines while our D limits Rivers to give a tad more room for error for Luck. That is how I see it playing out. While our strategy to protect our banged up secondary worked against a 2nd year QB in Siemian who did not take chances vs our banged up secondary, it will not work vs Philip Rivers.

 

Rivers has always done well vs a 4 man rush (unless you have a Von Miller around). I remember even during their prime years Rivers having issues with teams that mixed up coverages and teams that brought more than 4 in the Ravens and Jets. You have to bring safety or DB blitzes from the edges and every once in a while, play 2 or 3 man fronts with LBs dropping into passing lanes with the DBs providing double coverage, ala Romeo Crennel. Even with Mathis and Freeney, Rivers would keep rolling out and not throw it away as easily, he would rather take the sack while keeping alive the chances of a big play or completion, he is a gamer. When Freeney was out in the 2007 playoff game, with a cushy pocket, he picked apart our Dungy/Meeks cushy zones. Heck, even Billy Volek did that (never mind :(). He loves throwing to the RBs, whoever they are, so tackling has never been more important. 

 

We have to make their wide outs make contested catches and not sit inside zones, best way to do that is play some man coverage and hope our 5 man rushes get there. If a blitz is coming, the LB should get in the passing lanes for the hot reads with the TEs and RBs or anticipate it to tackle right after catch. They love to get their WRs going on skinny posts or across the field with Rivers throwing them open and hitting them in stride, so we have to be ready for those big play attempts. In the red zone, from the Cardinals days, Ken Wisenhunt runs the spread out 3 WR formation screens with a speedy wide out the target (in this case most likely Travis Benjamin). They will have 3 WRs lined up next to each other on one side (typically to the right of Rivers) all playing off the LOS. The farthest WR will block the guy, not right across him but the CB lined up against the WR next to him and so on. Wisenhunt would run it with Boldin or Fitzgerald, both big wideouts that can break the jam while the other wide outs block with the 3rd farthest receiver coming inside, catching it, using his WR blocks and going in for the TD. Rivers did the same with Eddie Royal vs the Ravens, something he kept in the playbook while Wisenhunt was with the Titans. Now, Wisenhunt is back, that play is not going away. We have to be ready for those plays. Once in the red zone, I'd like to have Geathers on Gates, any LB will be out-rebounded by Gates. 

 

Of course, nothing would matter if we don't stop the run :). That is how we are going to limit their yards, by being prepared. Thoughts???

 

I dont think QBs play against the front....any numbers vs. 3-fronts or 4-fronts would be coincidence.

Danny Woodhead is a big loss vs. us because we do play a softer zone with the injuries. and are vulnerable to check downs, us...

 

I agree.....We have to hurry Rivers.....send an extra man to get him.....especially at home where the snap count is an issue

SD could be 3 receivers short today just like we'll be 3 DBs short..

WE have to blitz him and live with the results good or bad because we want a fast-paced shootout.

We want to get the ball as many times as possible...because we're better on offense than they are

[oldunclemark]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 0:17 PM, OffensivelyPC said:

There's one problem with all that, we don't have people good enough to cover man to man right now, and even if we did, we don't have anyone that can really get to the quarterback to help out our coverage.

 

We have to use a 5 or 6-man rush on passing downs...

They will be down 3 receivers........Rivers is good but he's a stand still guy.

WEe can get there and we can make him miss with backup receivers

[chad72]

On 9/21/2016 at 9:47 AM, chad72 said:

This Chargers game will be about Luck keeping Rivers on the sidelines while our D limits Rivers to give a tad more room for error for Luck. That is how I see it playing out. While our strategy to protect our banged up secondary worked against a 2nd year QB in Siemian who did not take chances vs our banged up secondary, it will not work vs Philip Rivers.

 

Rivers has always done well vs a 4 man rush (unless you have a Von Miller around). I remember even during their prime years Rivers having issues with teams that mixed up coverages and teams that brought more than 4 in the Ravens and Jets. You have to bring safety or DB blitzes from the edges and every once in a while, play 2 or 3 man fronts with LBs dropping into passing lanes with the DBs providing double coverage, ala Romeo Crennel. Even with Mathis and Freeney, Rivers would keep rolling out and not throw it away as easily, he would rather take the sack while keeping alive the chances of a big play or completion, he is a gamer. When Freeney was out in the 2007 playoff game, with a cushy pocket, he picked apart our Dungy/Meeks cushy zones. Heck, even Billy Volek did that (never mind :(). He loves throwing to the RBs, whoever they are, so tackling has never been more important. 

 

We have to make their wide outs make contested catches and not sit inside zones, best way to do that is play some man coverage and hope our 5 man rushes get there. If a blitz is coming, the LB should get in the passing lanes for the hot reads with the TEs and RBs or anticipate it to tackle right after catch. They love to get their WRs going on skinny posts or across the field with Rivers throwing them open and hitting them in stride, so we have to be ready for those big play attempts. In the red zone, from the Cardinals days, Ken Wisenhunt runs the spread out 3 WR formation screens with a speedy wide out the target (in this case most likely Travis Benjamin). They will have 3 WRs lined up next to each other on one side (typically to the right of Rivers) all playing off the LOS. The farthest WR will block the guy, not right across him but the CB lined up against the WR next to him and so on. Wisenhunt would run it with Boldin or Fitzgerald, both big wideouts that can break the jam while the other wide outs block with the 3rd farthest receiver coming inside, catching it, using his WR blocks and going in for the TD. Rivers did the same with Eddie Royal vs the Ravens, something he kept in the playbook while Wisenhunt was with the Titans. Now, Wisenhunt is back, that play is not going away. We have to be ready for those plays. Once in the red zone, I'd like to have Geathers on Gates, any LB will be out-rebounded by Gates. 

 

Of course, nothing would matter if we don't stop the run :). That is how we are going to limit their yards, by being prepared. Thoughts???

 

 

The first time they were in the red zone, I saw that 3 WR formation, and right away, Pagano called timeout. Immediately, the Chargers changed it to a different formation. 

 

Then, it was an edge blitz that caused the Rivers' fumble, if I am not mistaken. Like coffeedrinker called it, a delayed edge blitz later happened. 

 

Great game plan by Pagano and his DC.

 

 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

The first time they were in the red zone, I saw that 3 WR formation, and right away, Pagano called timeout. Immediately, the Chargers changed it to a different formation. 

 

Then, it was an edge blitz that caused the Rivers' fumble, if I am not mistaken. Like coffeedrinker called it, a delayed edge blitz later happened. 

 

Great game plan by Pagano and his DC.

 

 

You mean to say that Pagano wasn't standing around looking like a deer in the head lights? Due tell.

[chad72]

3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You mean to say that Pagano wasn't standing around looking like a deer in the head lights? Due tell.

 

I have been giving Pagano props for his game plan ever since the game got over, not sure where this is coming from.

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

I have been giving Pagano props for his game plan ever since the game got over, not sure where this is coming from.

It was meant as sarcasm, my bad. I should have been more clear.