NFL catch rule language changed for 2016

[ColtsBlueFL]

But I'm not sure it is going to help relieve the confusion most fans about what is a catch or not.  The change in language (but not intent it seems) appears in Bold Underlined-

 

 

 

ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

 

 

(a)  secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

 

 

(b)  touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

 

 

(c)  maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps (see 3-2-7-Item 2).

 

 

Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.

 

 

If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

 

So, any clearer now?

 

I need to find my catch / no catch flow chart and re-post

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-updates-the-catch-rule-and-still-manages-to-create-more-confusion/

 

 

 

[oldunclemark]

  I dont know how important it is for fans or media (or even players)  to know what a catch is...

  ......in every circumstance....

 

.....with so many angles of replays, you cant ask for total consistency..

.every call is different

[ColtsBlueFL]

50 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

  I dont know how important it is for fans or media (or even players)  to know what a catch is...

  ......in every circumstance....

 

.....with so many angles of replays, you cant ask for total consistency..

.every call is different

 

As long as officials are consistent, it doesn't matter about fans or media think.  But even the officials aren't consistent.  Changing language wont alter that.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

As long as officials are consistent, it doesn't matter about fans or media think.  But even the officials aren't consistent.  Changing language wont alter that.

No matter what the rules say it is still a judgment call on how a ref calls it and what he sees. Fans will still be at odds because not everyone sees it the same. Sounds strange but it seems it always happens.

[21isSuperman]

It's times like this where I'm thankful I'm not an NFL referee

[ReMeDy]

lol it's rules like this why soccer fans point to why our version of football is inferior when even our own fans and referees can't figure out what the rules are. You know it's sad too when the NFL rulebook is probably the size of the Holy Bible.

[crazycolt1]

4 minutes ago, ReMeDy said:

lol it's rules like this why soccer fans point to why our version of football is inferior when even our own fans and referees can't figure out what the rules are. You know it's sad too when the NFL rulebook is probably the size of the Holy Bible.

The same can be said about soccer when they don't even know what a personal foul is. ( a colored card)  At least when someone hits another in the NFL we know it. I have seen some pretty awful calls in soccer and wonder how it was called. When ever you have human judgment calls made on any field of play there is going to be fans who will not agree. Soccer and the NFL are two completely different games. Neither players can really play the other because of what it takes to play them mentally and physically.

[BloodyChamp]

That doesn't help...just another version of drivel. It's not a judgment call, hasn't been for years. That's the problem. They need to give the referees back the ability to make common sense judgements when the rules contradict common sense.

[crazycolt1]

7 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

That doesn't help...just another version of drivel. It's not a judgment call, hasn't been for years. That's the problem. They need to give the referees back the ability to make common sense judgements when the rules contradict common sense.

It makes it a judgment call when two people see the same thing but have different opinions on what the call is. One persons judgment is different than the other, therefor making it a judgment call. It is a fact that 5 people can witness the same thing but when ask they all see a different thing.

[BloodyChamp]

And the final call reverts back to what's written regardless of what any of them see and judge personally. Heck sometimes they all see the same thing and still change it because of the automatic review.

[crazycolt1]

6 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

And the final call reverts back to what's written regardless of what any of them see and judge personally. Heck sometimes they all see the same thing and still change it because of the automatic review.

You have to admit that the automatic review is not 100% correct. Even after seeing the instant reply we are still wondering how a call was made. It don't happen often but it has happened in the past. Sometimes slow motion can make things look different too. Camera angles can also play tricks with the eyes because of depth perceptions. I don't worry too much about a bad call from time to time it's the missed calls I get more upset about. I know there are only x amount of eyes looking at things but is seems so obvious to us watching on TV.

[oldunclemark]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 10:56 PM, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

As long as officials are consistent, it doesn't matter about fans or media think.  But even the officials aren't consistent.  Changing language wont alter that.

I guess that's what I'm saying but I dont think the refs even have to be consistent.

They have to judge each play as it comes and players and media (and us) have to accept it.

It isn't as though players will catch the ball differently if the rules are worded differently.

"I've heard people say: I cant describe what a catch is but I know one when I see one"

 

Exactly. And the refs judge catches the same way.  That's the standard. What ever they think it is.

Like a baseball umpire calling a strike. It is what the ump thinks it is.

......players and fans can like it or not

[CoachLite]

On 7/7/2016 at 8:40 PM, ColtsBlueFL said:

But I'm not sure it is going to help relieve the confusion most fans about what is a catch or not.  The change in language (but not intent it seems) appears in Bold Underlined-

 

 

 

ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

 

 

(a)  secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

 

 

(b)  touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

 

 

(c)  maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps (see 3-2-7-Item 2).

 

 

Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.

 

 

If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

 

So, any clearer now?

 

I need to find my catch / no catch flow chart and re-post

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-updates-the-catch-rule-and-still-manages-to-create-more-confusion/

 

 

 

Well, there are the NFL rules, and then there are Jeff Triplette rules. Who knows what rules apply?

[ColtsBlueFL]

6 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

I guess that's what I'm saying but I dont think the refs even have to be consistent.

They have to judge each play as it comes and players and media (and us) have to accept it.

 

No., Dean Blandino expects all refs to learn the rule(and nuances) and make a call accordingly.  They have bee getting off season training every year recently, and the Comp Committee has been tinkering with language at the same time.  But the spirit and intent of the rule remains the same.

 

Quote

It isn't as though players will catch the ball differently if the rules are worded differently.

"I've heard people say: I cant describe what a catch is but I know one when I see one"

 

Exactly. And the refs judge catches the same way.  That's the standard. What ever they think it is.

Like a baseball umpire calling a strike. It is what the ump thinks it is.

 

This is what frustrate Blandino.  He doesn't get every catch/no catch call sent to him in New York.  So there are times when an official makes a call that Blandino would reverse; if it were to be reviewed.  But if it isn't reviewed, Blandino cannot interfere.  Thus the officials call stands. So it makes it appear consistency is worse than it should be.  I tracked  calls that went to review.  Dean Blandino gets every one from every game sent to New York. Bottom line, He is very consistent in his rulings.  And explains them the following week in video segments.

 

So what do fans/media think when a catch play is called one way, and not challenged.  Then later in the game, a almost exact replica of that play is called the same way.  But this time it is challenged.  Dean sees that the rule wasn't completely followed and reverses the decision.   In Deans eyes, his call is right, the earlier one not as much, but nothing he could do.  In fans/media eyes, nobody knows what will be called at any time anymore, or whether a call is confirmed or overruled.  Blandino keeps trying to clean it up by ref training.  We'll see, but these last couple years haven't shown all that much improvement yet.

 

Quote

......players and fans can like it or not

 

Indeed, and nothing can be done about it by those parties.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

No., Dean Blandino expects all refs to learn the rule(and nuances) and make a call accordingly.  They have bee getting off season training every year recently, and the Comp Committee has been tinkering with language at the same time.  But the spirit and intent of the rule remains the same.

 

 

This is what frustrate Blandino.  He doesn't get every catch/no catch call sent to him in New York.  So there are times when an official makes a call that Blandino would reverse; if it were to be reviewed.  But if it isn't reviewed, Blandino cannot interfere.  Thus the officials call stands. So it makes it appear consistency is worse than it should be.  I tracked  calls that went to review.  Dean Blandino gets every one from every game sent to New York. Bottom line, He is very consistent in his rulings.  And explains them the following week in video segments.

 

So what do fans/media think when a catch play is called one way, and not challenged.  Then later in the game, a almost exact replica of that play is called the same way.  But this time it is challenged.  Dean sees that the rule wasn't completely followed and reverses the decision.   In Deans eyes, his call is right, the earlier one not as much, but nothing he could do.  In fans/media eyes, nobody knows what will be called at any time anymore, or whether a call is confirmed or overruled.  Blandino keeps trying to clean it up by ref training.  We'll see, but these last couple years haven't shown all that much improvement yet.

 

 

Indeed, and nothing can be done about it by those parties.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix who says that Blandino is correct 100% of the time?

[shakedownstreet]

there must be a catch here somewhere

[crazycolt1]

9 hours ago, shakedownstreet said:

there must be a catch here somewhere

I doubt it.

[southwest1]

20 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Camera angles can also play tricks with the eyes because of depth perceptions.

This is a fantastic point CC1. Not only that plays always look different when you slow them down in replay vs real split second moments. Technology vs the human eye on the field.

 

You've made several outstanding points in this thread like you usually do.  

[southwest1]

On July 8, 2016 at 9:13 PM, crazycolt1 said:

It is a fact that 5 people can witness the same thing but when ask they all see a different thing.

Beautifully stated. I still remember how GB got robbed when they intercepted the ball not Seattle here. It still perplexes me to this day. Yes, people see what they wanna see depending on team allegiances. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/0ap1000000065984/Was-the-Seahawks-final-play-really-a-touchdown

 

Hey Darren Sharper, does prison life suit you? Bill Cosby will be joining you soon. Sorry for the detour folks. I'll behave myself now. I promise. 

[southwest1]

On July 8, 2016 at 2:37 PM, 21isSuperman said:

It's times like this where I'm thankful I'm not an NFL referee

Yeah, I've heard some unpleasant remarks lodged at my nephew who's a basketball ref in person a couple of times. It can be a brutal experience no doubt 21. 

 

Referees either amateur or professional definitely have to have a thick skin letting criticism roll off their backs like a duck in water. It's taught me to be nicer when attending a sporting event live to the athletic zebra on duty though. 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, southwest1 said:

Beautifully stated. I still remember how GB got robbed when they intercepted the ball not Seattle here. It still perplexes me to this day. Yes, people see what they wanna see depending on team allegiances. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/0ap1000000065984/Was-the-Seahawks-final-play-really-a-touchdown

 

Hey Darren Sharper, does prison life suit you? Bill Cosby will be joining you soon. Sorry for the detour folks. I'll behave myself now. I promise. 

You mean something like fandom vision?

[Valpo2004]

On 7/8/2016 at 3:40 PM, ReMeDy said:

lol it's rules like this why soccer fans point to why our version of football is inferior when even our own fans and referees can't figure out what the rules are. You know it's sad too when the NFL rulebook is probably the size of the Holy Bible.

 

I'm a fan of both games, but it's not an apt comparison.  

 

Soccer is quite frankly just a more simple game then football.  The intricacies of the rules in soccer just don't take a long time to master while in football as you said the rulebook is probably the size of the bible.  

 

That doesn't make any sport better or worse. . . just different.  

 

Besides soccer at the pro level has it's own issue with floppers.  

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 7/9/2016 at 4:39 PM, crazycolt1 said:

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix who says that Blandino is correct 100% of the time?

 

He is the final arbiter of NFL rules.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Blandino oversees the NFL’s Officiating Department as vice president of officiating.

 

“I’m responsible for all our on-field staff, our internal staff, the administration, the hiring, the training and the retention,” he said. “We evaluate all our officials, and I am in charge of that entire operation.”

 

Blandino works closely with the league’s Competition Committee, compiling and evaluating data on trends, recommending league actions or rule changes and communicating all modifications to officials, teams, players and fans."

 

" He strives for consistent rulings from all officials on all plays. He prepares weekly officiating training videos, edits the official rulebook, trains on-field officials and records “Official Review,” a weekly segment on the NFL Network’s “NFL Total Access,” where he clarifies rules and calls for fans. He stresses communication and serves as a liaison for all 32 NFL teams when they have questions about officiating. "

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

http://operations.nfl.com/the-officials/these-officials-are-really-good/dean-blandino/

 

He was awarded the power by the NFL.

 

 

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

He is the final arbiter of NFL rules.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Blandino oversees the NFL’s Officiating Department as vice president of officiating.

 

“I’m responsible for all our on-field staff, our internal staff, the administration, the hiring, the training and the retention,” he said. “We evaluate all our officials, and I am in charge of that entire operation.”

 

Blandino works closely with the league’s Competition Committee, compiling and evaluating data on trends, recommending league actions or rule changes and communicating all modifications to officials, teams, players and fans."

 

" He strives for consistent rulings from all officials on all plays. He prepares weekly officiating training videos, edits the official rulebook, trains on-field officials and records “Official Review,” a weekly segment on the NFL Network’s “NFL Total Access,” where he clarifies rules and calls for fans. He stresses communication and serves as a liaison for all 32 NFL teams when they have questions about officiating. "

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

http://operations.nfl.com/the-officials/these-officials-are-really-good/dean-blandino/

 

He was awarded the power by the NFL.

 

 

I know who he is. It still don't answer my question. He watches a replay just like everyone else does. He uses his judgment of what he sees just like every one else. Wherever there is a human element how can one say he is 100% correct? He may have the highest percentage of correct calls and that is why is the NFL's arbitrator but 100%? Maybe, maybe not.

[southwest1]

On July 10, 2016 at 4:10 AM, crazycolt1 said:

You mean something like fandom vision?

Uh huh. I've been guilty of that myself many times whenever a penalty goes against my Colts, Big Blue, or Dallas gets a ridiculous call in their favor. 

 

Guilty as charged CC1; Guilty as charged my friend. 

[DougDew]

Basically the rule change means that Dez Bryant's incompletion would now be ruled a catch since he displayed a "football move" by extending and reaching for the goal line after controlling the ball with two feet on the ground.

 

I think the change eliminates that dopey incomplete call when the player takes forever to hit the ground despite clearly possessing the ball beforehand.

[crazycolt1]

The thing with these rules are catching a football is a visual thing. We look at a play and say to ourselves that is or isn't a catch. Rules don't enter the thought process. Any one of can see the same play but have different endings if it was a catch or not. Making rule changes will not change that.

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 7/12/2016 at 1:25 AM, crazycolt1 said:

I know who he is. It still don't answer my question. He watches a replay just like everyone else does. He uses his judgment of what he sees just like every one else. Wherever there is a human element how can one say he is 100% correct? He may have the highest percentage of correct calls and that is why is the NFL's arbitrator but 100%? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Because in his head, he knows what he wants out of his officials, and he tinkers with the language every year to better convey it in print. In other words, read every word of the rule (he knows it without referral) then watch the play in slow mo...apply every portion of rule, = consistent result.

 

I watched all of his calls last year, and it was apparent he was very consistent.  Enough so I knew how he would rule before the result after awhile, even if announcers weren't in agreement with me.  My wife was astonished that I would disagree with TV announcers predictions and ultimately get it right.  I told her it isn't because I'm clairvoyant, but I learned Dean's nuances to his catch rule and how he applies them.  Then, I could could determine what HE would say, not what I thought, or the TV announcers would think.

 

I created a flowchart and posted it here.  Maybe I can locate it in a search.

(I have long since upgraded laptop, and certain that file didn't make the backup transfer routine)

 

If you create a rule, cover every possible scenario of that rule being applied, then you too will be 100% and consistent in application of it.  Training others to do as well as you... or fans/media to understand it thoroughly, that's the rub.

 

 

[BloodyChamp]

This is like arguing if Bruce Jenner is really a...catch or not.

[ColtsBlueFL]

16 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

The thing with these rules are catching a football is a visual thing. We look at a play and say to ourselves that is or isn't a catch. Rules don't enter the thought process. Any one of can see the same play but have different endings if it was a catch or not. Making rule changes will not change that.

 

Refs do apply rules, but it is much more difficult in real time than in slow motion.  Here, look what I found!!

 

Try this next time it goes to review, and see if you guess right before the Ref come out from under the hood...

 

 

Until after ground contact means after you get up from being on the ground.  Nearly handing it back to the official.

[BloodyChamp]

Because they changed some things ya know. 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Because in his head, he knows what he wants out of his officials, and he tinkers with the language every year to better convey it in print. In other words, read every word of the rule (he knows it without referral) then watch the play in slow mo...apply every portion of rule, = consistent result.

 

I watched all of his calls last year, and it was apparent he was very consistent.  Enough so I knew how he would rule before the result after awhile, even if announcers weren't in agreement with me.  My wife was astonished that I would disagree with TV announcers predictions and ultimately get it right.  I told her it isn't because I'm clairvoyant, but I learned Dean's nuances to his catch rule and how he applies them.  Then, I could could determine what HE would say, not what I thought, or the TV announcers would think.

 

I created a flowchart and posted it here.  Maybe I can locate it in a search.

(I have long since upgraded laptop, and certain that file didn't make the backup transfer routine)

 

If you create a rule, cover every possible scenario of that rule being applied, then you too will be 100% and consistent in application of it.  Training others to do as well as you... or fans/media to understand it thoroughly, that's the rub.

 

 

 Not trying to be argumentative but all of this still does not account for camera angles and human element. If you go back and listen to what Blandino says as he explains he will often use the term "in my opinion'. What that tells me is even Blandino knows this is not 100% correct because of the factors mentioned. Oh well. it's a lot better than it used to be that's for sure. In an earlier comment I think the missed calls have a bigger impact on the NFL game than an occasional reviewed play.

[ColtsBlueFL]

On July 12, 2016 at 8:24 AM, DougDew said:

Basically the rule change means that Dez Bryant's incompletion would now be ruled a catch since he displayed a "football move" by extending and reaching for the goal line after controlling the ball with two feet on the ground.

 

I think the change eliminates that dopey incomplete call when the player takes forever to hit the ground despite clearly possessing the ball beforehand.

 

That's not correct. Blandino has come out and said that 'extending out the football while falling to the ground'  does NOT establish the receiver as a runner, (note: football move is not part of the rule). He elaborated and said such a receiver should be clutching it into maintain control and possession (a catch) rather than risk an incompletion (not a fumble) reaching the ball out and losing control.  They did not change the rule, they changed the language trying to maske it clearer.  It appears to be failing, as /I felt it would, and I even hinted at at the bottom of my initial post.

 

The same rulings will be made this year as prior, wait and see.