Chuck Pagano ranks 134th out of 144 coaches since 1989 on 4th down aggressiveness.

[crazycolt1]

33 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

When Broomstick runs or throws on a 4th down,  that call comes from the Head Coach.

 

Always.

 

That decision was not made by the special teams coach.     If Boom is given the green light to use his best judgement,   that green light comes from the HC.

 

Always.

It is Boomsticks judgment. So at that point the head coach didn't call the play, Boomstick did. Even though the head coach is responsible for calls made he is not the only one who calls plays. I don't understand why you have  problem with that comment?

[WoolMagnet]

7 hours ago, Dustin said:

 

Yes he is. The HC always makes the call whether to go on it on 4th down or not. If you have proof that Pep Hamilton decided when to go for it on 4th down, id love to see it, 

Simma donn na ..... Thats the thing you chose to argue?

i'm sure its a group effort sometimes , sometimes not:.  I didn't read that far into it.  I laughed at the" if you have proof" comment. Well, dou have proof Pep didn't?  I just felt like Peewee telling Francis " I know you are but what am I?"

who cares really?  It comes down to the HC anyway.

But with the seemingly high level of emotion you replied with; i gues i can seat you on the "fire Pagano" side of the party. 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

It is Boomsticks judgment. So at that point the head coach didn't call the play, Boomstick did. Even though the head coach is responsible for calls made he is not the only one who calls plays. I don't understand why you have  problem with that comment?

 

Because the way you write it,  you make it sound like it's all on McAfee and Pagano is not involved.

 

They have studied tape all week.    They think their might be a weakness.    Nagano has given the green light before Sunday has even come around.      Pagano is involved in the decision making process.    McAfee doesn't run without Pagano's blessing.       It may be McAfee's call if he's making a split second judgement call,    but Pagano has been involved in the process all along.

 

[southwest1]

So Dustin, are you upset that Pags isn't aggressive enough on 4th down to your liking or that when he goes for it against the Patriots & INDY crashes & burns on natl. TV? 

 

I get that you wanted Jim Irsay to go in a new direction on the sidelines & all that, but it's not like an NFL regime change is on the table anymore for say 3 years at least. 

 

I guess what I'm driving at is this: What did you hope to accomplish with this thread exactly? Slam Chuck for his deficiencies again as you see them? Okay, fine. I just don't see the need in finding any way & every way to cut Chuck down now. He's like a prom date you agreed to go to the dance with. You don't get to change your mind & alter the past anymore. It is what it is Dustin. 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Because the way you write it,  you make it sound like it's all on McAfee and Pagano is not involved.

 

They have studied tape all week.    They think their might be a weakness.    Nagano has given the green light before Sunday has even come around.      Pagano is involved in the decision making process.    McAfee doesn't run without Pagano's blessing.       It may be McAfee's call if he's making a split second judgement call,    but Pagano has been involved in the process all along.

 

The way I write it? What are you even talking about?

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

The way I write it? What are you even talking about?

 

You write it as if it's all McAfee and very little Pagano.

 

And that's not the case.

 

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You write it as if it's all McAfee and very little Pagano.

 

And that's not the case.

 

I didn't write any such way. You took it upon yourself to add your own twist to it. I have news for you. You are not the only forum member who knows something about football. You have a way of talking down to not only me but others too like your knowledge of the NFL is above everyone's. I sent an olive branch to you and you ignored it like it was nothing. Not one thought did you give it. Now all you want to do is be argumentative. No thanks. I am done with you and your high and mighty attitude.

[WoolMagnet]

I've been waiting for u guys to lock horns.

kinda like a ticking timebomb. I knew it was inevitable.

maybe the disappointment of last year, but man we Colt fans are testy this offseason

[Gavin]

Mcafee was given the go ahead by Pagano well before the game even started. That decision WAS NOT made in game by Pagano. The decision was made by Mcafee but ok'd by Pagano BASED ON if the snap brings him out of the pocket.....and it was ok'd before the season even started. It brought him out of the pocket so Mcafee made the call. Mcafee even stated they discussed that once in TC

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

I didn't write any such way. You took it upon yourself to add your own twist to it. I have news for you. You are not the only forum member who knows something about football. You have a way of talking down to not only me but others too like your knowledge of the NFL is above everyone's. I sent an olive branch to you and you ignored it like it was nothing. Not one thought did you give it. Now all you want to do is be argumentative. No thanks. I am done with you and your high and mighty attitude.

 

We've been down this road before,  but I guess it bears repeating....

 

Let's avoid each other.      I'll try not to respond to your posts,  and you can extend me the same courtesy.

 

And if THAT was your idea of an olive branch,  you've got more to learn than just about football.....

 

And I certainly did NOT ignore it.   I certainly didn't understand it,  but that's not surprising coming from you.

 

Good luck to you....

 

 

[Dustin]

On 6/6/2016 at 0:00 PM, crazycolt1 said:

Boomstick has the clearance to go for it on 4th down from a punt formation. So you are wrong if you think the call is only called by the head coach.

 

It's amazing how you're always wrong. 

[Dustin]

18 hours ago, WoolMagnet said:

Simma donn na ..... Thats the thing you chose to argue?

i'm sure its a group effort sometimes , sometimes not:.  I didn't read that far into it.  I laughed at the" if you have proof" comment. Well, dou have proof Pep didn't?  I just felt like Peewee telling Francis " I know you are but what am I?"

who cares really?  It comes down to the HC anyway.

But with the seemingly high level of emotion you replied with; i gues i can seat you on the "fire Pagano" side of the party. 

 

I'm not arguing. Just telling you you are wrong. 

[Dustin]

17 hours ago, southwest1 said:

So Dustin, are you upset that Pags isn't aggressive enough on 4th down to your liking or that when he goes for it against the Patriots & INDY crashes & burns on natl. TV? 

 

I get that you wanted Jim Irsay to go in a new direction on the sidelines & all that, but it's not like an NFL regime change is on the table anymore for say 3 years at least. 

 

I guess what I'm driving at is this: What did you hope to accomplish with this thread exactly? Slam Chuck for his deficiencies again as you see them? Okay, fine. I just don't see the need in finding any way & every way to cut Chuck down now. He's like a prom date you agreed to go to the dance with. You don't get to change your mind & alter the past anymore. It is what it is Dustin. 

 

I'm not upset at anything. It was an interesting stat. 

[Jason_]

12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You write it as if it's all McAfee and very little Pagano.

 

And that's not the case.

 

 

22 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

It is Boomsticks judgment. So at that point the head coach didn't call the play, Boomstick did. Even though the head coach is responsible for calls made he is not the only one who calls plays. I don't understand why you have  problem with that comment?

 

This is for both of you:

 

 

You're both right, and your recent spats back and forth are the only reason you're arguing again.  Yes it is true that Pat wouldn't go for 4th down at his discretion if Pagano had not empowered him to do so.  However, Pagano did empower Pat to go for it, at Pat's discretion based on tendencies and the way the other team plays that particular snap.  The "go for it" dropped pass by McDonald is a perfect example.  Pat had the authority to make the on-the-fly decision to go for it instead of punting.  Chuck was not directly involved in the decision to go for it on that particular play.  However, Pat also wouldn't have gone for it had Chuck not indirectly given him permission to do so.  

 

So in a way, you're both right.  Go have a drink, simmer down, and STOP DERAILING EVERY THREAD!

 

 

12 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

It's amazing how you're always wrong. 

 

What was wrong with that particular post?  Crazycolt was right in that particular post.

[Gavin]

7 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

 

This is for both of you:

 

 

You're both right, and your recent spats back and forth are the only reason you're arguing again.  Yes it is true that Pat wouldn't go for 4th down at his discretion if Pagano had not empowered him to do so.  However, Pagano did empower Pat to go for it, at Pat's discretion based on tendencies and the way the other team plays that particular snap.  The "go for it" dropped pass by McDonald is a perfect example.  Pat had the authority to make the on-the-fly decision to go for it instead of punting.  Chuck was not directly involved in the decision to go for it on that particular play.  However, Pat also wouldn't have gone for it had Chuck not indirectly given him permission to do so.  

 

So in a way, you're both right.  Go have a drink, simmer down, and STOP DERAILING EVERY THREAD!

 

 

 

What was wrong with that particular post?  Crazycolt was right in that particular post.

I have no idea what's even to debate in this case. I stated exactly why Mcafee made the play that he did and it was Mcafee's own words

[Jason_]

1 minute ago, Gavin said:

I have no idea what's even to debate in this case. I stated exactly why Mcafee made the play that he did and it was Mcafee's own words

 

[NewColtsFan]

12 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

 

This is for both of you:

 

 

You're both right, and your recent spats back and forth are the only reason you're arguing again.  Yes it is true that Pat wouldn't go for 4th down at his discretion if Pagano had not empowered him to do so.  However, Pagano did empower Pat to go for it, at Pat's discretion based on tendencies and the way the other team plays that particular snap.  The "go for it" dropped pass by McDonald is a perfect example.  Pat had the authority to make the on-the-fly decision to go for it instead of punting.  Chuck was not directly involved in the decision to go for it on that particular play.  However, Pat also wouldn't have gone for it had Chuck not indirectly given him permission to do so.  

 

So in a way, you're both right.  Go have a drink, simmer down, and STOP DERAILING EVERY THREAD!

 

What was wrong with that particular post?  Crazycolt was right in that particular post.

 

That's not the way I remember that play....   I believe it was against Dallas before that game quickly got out of hand.       Anyone have a link to a story?      I thought Pagano talked about how they practiced that all week.   They were looking to use that in the game.       I don't see McAfee throwing from practically his own goal line without Chuck being involved in that play.     I'd love to look at write-ups or see tape of a Pagano interview.

 

Either I'm misremembering -- always a possibility -- or someone else is.....

 

[Jason_]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

That's not the way I remember that play....   I believe it was against Dallas before that game quickly got out of hand.       Anyone have a link to a story?      I thought Pagano talked about how they practiced that all week.   They were looking to use that in the game.       I don't see McAfee throwing from practically his own goal line without Chuck being involved in that play.     I'd love to look at write-ups or see tape of a Pagano interview.

 

Either I'm misremembering -- always a possibility -- or someone else is.....

 

 

I remember them saying they'd practiced that play, but don't remember them specifically practicing it that week.  Either way, the way I remember it they both said that Pat made the decision on the fly because Pagano told him to go for it if he got a favorable look.  

[Jason_]

20 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

That's not the way I remember that play....   I believe it was against Dallas before that game quickly got out of hand.       Anyone have a link to a story?      I thought Pagano talked about how they practiced that all week.   They were looking to use that in the game.       I don't see McAfee throwing from practically his own goal line without Chuck being involved in that play.     I'd love to look at write-ups or see tape of a Pagano interview.

 

Either I'm misremembering -- always a possibility -- or someone else is.....

 

 

I think you're confusing the Dewey McDonald drop with the Colt Anderson/Griff Whalen botched snap.  Both Pagano and McAfee said that the Anderson/Whalen play had been practiced all week, but with someone else as the C.  As for the Dewey play, Pat said they'd been practicing that play all year.  

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/colts-fake-punt-chuck-pagano-patriots-sunday-night-football-nfl/kv7074fja2q81ffy7y86g2ryd

 

This is in regards to the Whalen/Anderson fake..Pagano says:

 

""I didn’t do a good enough job of coaching it during the week.”"

 

http://www.colts.com/news/article-1/Pat-McAfee-Breaks-Down-Colts-Fake-Punt-Defends-McDonald/207388df-da98-4594-8684-7ad4e93e768e

 

In this link, Pat talks about the dropped pass play as having been practiced all year:

 

"“We’ve been literally practicing that all year,” said Punter Pat McAfee. “They brought a hot corner. It was an automatic check to a gunner.”"

 

[Gavin]

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2015/9/28/9411921/pat-mcafee-called-that-fake-punt-run-for-the-colts

 

This was a situational thing," McAfee said.  "If I happen to get a snap that brings me out of the pocket a little bit and I see that the edge is wide open, I kinda got the green light.  And that's talked about probably once in training camp, but if that situation ever pops up, you know you'd better go ahead and get it.  But if I don't get it there, I'm probably walking back to a punch in the face from Coach Pagano and Tom McMahon, our special teams coach.  Very happy we got it; picked up some momentum there. Wish we would have done something with it, but that's just situational ball where, we have such good coaches here.  Tom McMahon, Brant Boyer, and Pagano keep us on our p's and q's with every situation that pops up.  That one popped up, we took advantage of it, it was a lot of fun.  I'm still trying to catch my breath from it."

[WoolMagnet]

2 hours ago, Dustin said:

 

I'm not arguing. Just telling you you are wrong. 

thats funy

well thank you for sharing your supreme knowledge, kind sir.

[Dustin]

2 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

 

This is for both of you:

 

 

You're both right, and your recent spats back and forth are the only reason you're arguing again.  Yes it is true that Pat wouldn't go for 4th down at his discretion if Pagano had not empowered him to do so.  However, Pagano did empower Pat to go for it, at Pat's discretion based on tendencies and the way the other team plays that particular snap.  The "go for it" dropped pass by McDonald is a perfect example.  Pat had the authority to make the on-the-fly decision to go for it instead of punting.  Chuck was not directly involved in the decision to go for it on that particular play.  However, Pat also wouldn't have gone for it had Chuck not indirectly given him permission to do so.  

 

So in a way, you're both right.  Go have a drink, simmer down, and STOP DERAILING EVERY THREAD!

 

 

 

What was wrong with that particular post?  Crazycolt was right in that particular post.

 

McAfee making a decision by proxy of Pagano is still Pagano making the decision. McAfee doesn't make the choice out of his own volition, but based on situations deemed acceptable by the HC.

[Jason_]

Just now, Dustin said:

 

McAfee making a decision by proxy of Pagano is still Pagano making the decision. McAfee doesn't make the choice out of his own volition, but based on situations deemed acceptable by the HC.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Pat makes these choices of his own volition without being in situations where the HC deems acceptable.  All crazycolt is saying is that in certain situations, Pat McAfee makes the decision on the field to go for the first down instead of carrying out the punt that was called in from the sidelines.  In those situations, Chuck didn't tell the ST coach to go for it.  Chuck didn't give any sort of hand-signal to Pat telling Pat it's ok to change the play.  Pat changed it on his own, but only because Chuck trusts him and empowered him to do so.

[Dustin]

Just now, Jason_S said:

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Pat makes these choices of his own volition

 

Then he's not the one making the decision of whether to fake the play or not. 

 

If we both agree that McAfee is making the decision by proxy for Pagano (because of circumstances and situations outlined by him) then I don't see the need for this to continue. 

[Jason_]

Just now, Dustin said:

 

Then he's not the one making the decision of whether to fake the play or not. 

 

If we both agree that McAfee is making the decision by proxy for Pagano (because of circumstances and situations outlined by him) then I don't see the need for this to continue. 

 

He's the one making the decision in the moment because he was authorized to make the decision by Pagano.  I don't see any need for this to continue either.  Both Pat and Chuck were involved in the making of those decisions.  I don't see why that's such a point of contention.

[Dustin]

7 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

He's the one making the decision in the moment because he was authorized to make the decision by Pagano.  I don't see any need for this to continue either.  Both Pat and Chuck were involved in the making of those decisions.  I don't see why that's such a point of contention.

 

Just answer this question:

 

Does Chuck Pagano decide when to go for it on 4th down? Be it before or during the game?

[Jason_]

7 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

Just answer this question:

 

Does Chuck Pagano decide when to go for it on 4th down? Be it before or during the game?

 

this is getting old.  I've already answered.  See my previous replies.  

[Dustin]

Just now, Jason_S said:

 

this is getting old.  I've already answered.  See my previous replies.  

 

I'll take that as a yes, which means my original statement was correct. 

[Jason_]

1 minute ago, Dustin said:

 

I'll take that as a yes, which means my original statement was correct. 

 

Take it however you want.  That's pretty much your M.O. anyway.

 

Bottom line, I very clearly, in plain English, answered the question you asked in the post above it.  In certain situations, Pat makes the decision to go for it in the heat of the moment because Chuck empowered him to do so.  Do I need to get out some crayons and construction paper? 

[Dustin]

Just now, Jason_S said:

 

Take it however you want.  That's pretty much your M.O. anyway. ;)

 

Bottom line, I very clearly, in plain English, answered the question you asked in the post above it.  In certain situations, Pat makes the decision to go for it in the heat of the moment because Chuck empowered him to do so.  Do I need to get out some crayons and construction paper? ;)

 

[Jason_]

Just now, Dustin said:

 

 

I don't want your factory.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Gavin said:

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2015/9/28/9411921/pat-mcafee-called-that-fake-punt-run-for-the-colts

 

This was a situational thing," McAfee said.  "If I happen to get a snap that brings me out of the pocket a little bit and I see that the edge is wide open, I kinda got the green light.  And that's talked about probably once in training camp, but if that situation ever pops up, you know you'd better go ahead and get it.  But if I don't get it there, I'm probably walking back to a punch in the face from Coach Pagano and Tom McMahon, our special teams coach.  Very happy we got it; picked up some momentum there. Wish we would have done something with it, but that's just situational ball where, we have such good coaches here.  Tom McMahon, Brant Boyer, and Pagano keep us on our p's and q's with every situation that pops up.  That one popped up, we took advantage of it, it was a lot of fun.  I'm still trying to catch my breath from it."

 

Gavin....

 

I don't know how to break this to you.....    but we're not talking about the same thing.

 

As far as I know we're talking about McAfee's pass to Dewey McDonald in the Dallas game in December of 2014 when the Colts got killed.       The Colts were trailing 7-0 early in the first quarter and had a 3 and out series.

 

McAfee took the snap and passed the ball to a wide-open McDonald who dropped the pass for what would've been a 25-30 yard gain.      Dallas got the ball and immediate scored and the blow-out started.

 

We're not talking about McAfee running the ball against Tennessee last year.

 

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

I think you're confusing the Dewey McDonald drop with the Colt Anderson/Griff Whalen botched snap.  Both Pagano and McAfee said that the Anderson/Whalen play had been practiced all week, but with someone else as the C.  As for the Dewey play, Pat said they'd been practicing that play all year.  

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/colts-fake-punt-chuck-pagano-patriots-sunday-night-football-nfl/kv7074fja2q81ffy7y86g2ryd

 

This is in regards to the Whalen/Anderson fake..Pagano says:

 

""I didn’t do a good enough job of coaching it during the week.”"

 

http://www.colts.com/news/article-1/Pat-McAfee-Breaks-Down-Colts-Fake-Punt-Defends-McDonald/207388df-da98-4594-8684-7ad4e93e768e

 

In this link, Pat talks about the dropped pass play as having been practiced all year:

 

"“We’ve been literally practicing that all year,” said Punter Pat McAfee. “They brought a hot corner. It was an automatic check to a gunner.”"

 

 

I think we see the same thing differently.     The way I read you two,  you and Crazy Colt see this as more McAfee's play.

 

I see this as much Pagano and the rest of the staff as McAfee.    They practiced it all year,  and McAfee does not have the green light unless Pagano and staff give it to him.       No punter is passing in the shadow of his own goal posts without approval of the HC.    

[Jason_]

 

14 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Gavin....

 

I don't know how to break this to you.....    but we're not talking about the same thing.

 

As far as I know we're talking about McAfee's pass to Dewey McDonald in the Dallas game in December of 2014 when the Colts got killed.

 

 

Actually no, the conversation began referring to going for it on fourth down in general, not in that one specific instance.  Re-read your previous post:

 

On 6/6/2016 at 2:13 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

When Broomstick runs or throws on a 4th down,  that call comes from the Head Coach.

 

Always.

 

That decision was not made by the special teams coach.     If Boom is given the green light to use his best judgement,   that green light comes from the HC.

 

Always.

[Jason_]

19 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think we see the same thing differently.     The way I read you two,  you and Crazy Colt see this as more McAfee's play.

 

I see this as much Pagano and the rest of the staff as McAfee.    They practiced it all year,  and McAfee does not have the green light unless Pagano and staff give it to him.       No punter is passing in the shadow of his own goal posts without approval of the HC.    

 

I don't know why you're reading it that way.  I've been very clear on this.  Maybe re-read the replies I've posted in the last hour or 2? Not really sure how else to put it.  I definitely have not said that Pat didn't have Chuck's approval and I don't think crazycolt did either.

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

I don't know why you're reading it that way.  I've been very clear on this.  Maybe re-read the replies I've posted in the last hour or 2? Not really sure how else to put it.  I definitely have not said that Pat didn't have Chuck's approval and I don't think crazycolt did either.

 

 

I think this thread should die a quick, but quiet death.

 

I think we should all go to neutral corners and forget about it.      Prolonging this isn't going to help anyone.

 

Tomorrow will hopefully be a better day for all of us......

 

 

[southwest1]

10 hours ago, Dustin said:

 

I'm not upset at anything. It was an interesting stat. 

I didn't find the stat all that interesting personally. Not a negative reflection upon you at all who I hold in high regard BTW. 

 

144 coaches as a sample size is pretty tiny in scope & it really doesn't encapsulate anything of substance to me on a large scale to be of any value. Get a sample size of say 10,000 or 100,000 & then you can start drawing conclusions that mean something. 

 

All that stat really says is that Chuck isn't bold on 4th down. That's it. Not exactly a profound statement & it doesn't explain or account for the situation on the field either. Is it a regular season game or post season one? Which INDY unit was playing better in a given week? The offense or the defense? What team are we playing against? Our arch rival NE or a lousy team like say the Lions? What weather conditions are present? 

 

In isolation, your random thread title means absolutely nothing at worst or is grossly vague & incomplete at best. Ergo, nothing interesting can be drawn from it either about Pagano's coaching tendencies or his aggressiveness or indecision on the sidelines either way. 

[Jason_]

11 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

I think this thread should die a quick, but quiet death.

 

I think we should all go to neutral corners and forget about it.      Prolonging this isn't going to help anyone.

 

Tomorrow will hopefully be a better day for all of us......

 

 

 

I was actually having a fine day yesterday.

[Jason_]

11 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

I think this thread should die a quick, but quiet death.

 

with this I do agree

[GoColts8818]