Matt Miller: The love is real for Ryan Kelly in Indianapolis

[Dustin]

1 minute ago, Gavin said:

No I didn't. your point is that rush linebacker is a premium position and more important, especially compared to Center.....Of course it is but the draft is not as black and white as that.  Your not drafting premium positions.

 

Yes you are. 

[Zoltan]

I really would like to see a trade back, I think Kelly at 18 is to high but I think him and Martin will be gone by our pick in the second round, I also don't like any of the edge rushers this year for in the first round and not a fan of the Cornerbacks I do like some of the Inside linebackers but think the first round talent will be gone by our pick

[Gavin]

7 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

Yes you are. 

You do that and you end up with Everette Brown or a Larry English......For example going with that 2009 draft class...You want them or Mack?

[Dustin]

7 minutes ago, Gavin said:

You do that and you end up with Everette Brown or a Larry English......For example going with that 2009 draft class...You want them or Mack?

 

I'd rather have Brian Orakpo or Vontae Davis, or Clay Matthews. 

[Gavin]

2 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

I'd rather have Brian Orakpo or Vontae Davis, or Clay Matthews. 

Cant go wrong with any of them any way we spin it. Sticking with that draft Max Unger went in the 2nd.... though I have not really been keeping tabs on how he has played since being drafted specifically. I know he was named 1st team all pro once and a 2 time pro bowler

[Surge89]

1 hour ago, Gavin said:

Well its more like Alex Mack instead of Clay Matthews considering Mack went in 2009 right before Matthews who went 5 picks later. But I think you have to live that. You cant worry about some other player doing well if you have a player that you had graded slightly higher doing just as well at another position

 

I don't see it like that.

 

I see it as positional value must be considered in all grades.  It isn't pigeon holding certain positions to the first round per se but it is to a point.  Certain positions just simply do not equate higher talent to direct correlated production.  Center is one of those positions in which even though the talent grade is high it will not create a much higher level of production than someone who is not rated as high via talent grade. 

 

On the other hand the disparity between high talent pass rushers and low talent ones is extremely huge.  15 sacks year with 10 or so guaranteed pressure per game is simply more production than 5 sacks a year 4 pressures a game.  (exaggerated).  With this prior knowledge the grading should then look different.  In the perfect world of talent vs talent the center may be 8.9 and the pass rusher 8.7.  But calculate in the production produced by said talent and you will find that the pass rusher would be more of a 9.0 level grade and the center an 8.1 (example).  What also impacts this is of course surrounding talent level as well.  If you have multiple centers rated at 8.0 talent level and the next rated pass rusher is a 6.2 I'd say you are more than inclined to take the pass rusher regardless of the grade.  

 

Just my opinion on the matter

[southwest1]

18 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

Dorsett will make you eat your doubting words this yr 

I not doubting his talent CF just where we took him in the draft last April in round 1 at 29. Grigs has always been way too WR happy even going back to his Philadelphia scouting days IMO. 

[Traines]

7 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

Just my opinion on the matter

I absolutely agree with you, but it's the same people who continue to not get it so I imagine this point will pass them by as well...

[Superman]

9 hours ago, BOTT said:

I didnt make it up.  I have listened to former interior lineman say it's the easiest...including Damian Woody.  It's only fans who think it's of great im

9 hours ago, BOTT said:

 

portance.

Mobile formatting, sorry...

 

Center is the easiest position, physically. Not mentally, not from a leadership standpoint. Those intangibles are reflected in scouting, but physical stature, talent and ability are way more important. 

 

So the guys with the size and movement ability to play tackle usually get drafted higher than guys who are too small, too stiff, too slow. Kelly plays center because he's at Alabama, not because he's not good enough to play elsewhere. He'd be a standout guard, and he's the same size as Whitehair who plays tackle at Kansas State; Kelly actually has slightly longer arms. His talent and refinement move him up the board, compared to guys who are less equipped than him.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Colton Stenger said:

I really would like to see a trade back, I think Kelly at 18 is to high but I think him and Martin will be gone by our pick in the second round, I also don't like any of the edge rushers this year for in the first round and not a fan of the Cornerbacks I do like some of the Inside linebackers but think the first round talent will be gone by our pick

That is one of the better summaries of the dilemma. 

 

No real edge guys outside of Floyd who are 1st round worthy.  He and the top CBs will likely be gone by #18.  A DT will be there, but now you have to think of need...and if you pass on Kelly and Martin isn't there at #48, we have no real chance to upgrade the OL....which is something that MUST be done, IMO.

[southwest1]

18 hours ago, dgambill said:

The odds are about the same either way. ROH caliber players are a long shot either way. First rd centers are just so rare. People are more forgiving of you pass on a pro bowl caliber center for a pass rusher that flames out than if you pass on a pro bowl pass rusher for an center that does. I'd say center and rb have about the same value in the NFL. Just not a lot of separation from a good one to an avg one where at other positions the margins are more clear. That said like an AP if you have a stud you find a way to take them. In the end I will trust our staff. Hard to argue since they have all the info but it would be hard for me to value Kelly as the 18th best player in the draft and the difference in what we might get from him and one in rds two three or later I don't think are as big as say other positions. 

I agree that no one really knows what draft picks are really gonna pan out at the next level unless a kid comes from good bloodline stock like say Howie Long's sons or something like that. I get that pass rushers & quality corners are more of an asset than say a RB by committee approach is, but I don't know if I'd say RBs & centers are valued the same. Usually, teams that say that are grossly deficient at 1 or both spots. Look, I get it. GMs put a premium on left tackles, QBs, & DBs where the bulk of their salary cap goes in most cases. 

 

However, I'm tired in not being able to run the darn ball. Seattle can run it, Pittsburgh can run it, the Rams can run it why the hades can't INDY? I wanna runs of like 4 yards a carry every time Gore touches the ball & the only way we do that is movement up front with the power pigs in the trenches. We sure haven't found Jeff Saturday's successor now have we dgb?  Nick Mangold has been a rock in the big apple for the Jets & his presence is crucial to their production on the ground. Every season the Colts go thru competition at center can't we just fill that spot with confidence already & give Gore a darn chance? 

 

I'm not mad at you buddy. I'm just sick of our pitiful yards on the ground I guess. If you wanna select a guy that can rotate every position on the line fine, I'm cool with that. 

[southwest1]

17 hours ago, Hoose said:

Memorize this guy:  RYAN KELLY. New Colts Center. For the next 10 years. 

I hope you're a prophet Hoose. By my own definition, I yield to draft gurus I trust on here. You know who you are.

 

If Mr. Kelly fits that bill, fantastic. Just stop the bleeping. That's all I ask. 

[MSColtsFan]

What's interesting to me is the sense I get that some are suddenly forgetting the evaluations of the edge rushers this year, the clear-as-mud mess that is those prospects this draft.  None of second half of the first, early second round edge rushers have the same evaluation discussions as Kelly.  The truth is Kelly may be the safest pick in the entire draft, one of the very few players who nearly all agree is a start from day one, team leader, hard working blue collar kinda guy with a proven track record against the most elite competition in college over multiple years.  Drafting in hindsight is easy.  I won't argue that an OLB has more value than a C.  But we're not talking about 2009, or 2011, we're talking about tomorrow, and those kids.  I don't know if I were Grigs looking at Spence, or Dodd, or Ogbah, for example, and also saw Kelly there, if I could dismiss the long list of issues with the DE/OLB guys, and not just take Kelly.  If it's Lawson or Floyd, it's a moot point, it's not the same discussion.  But for the rest, there is a ton of gray, a ton more than with Kelly at least.  I get that's it's safe and unsexy.  But sometimes singles and doubles work just as well as home runs.  You just need more of them.  Maybe Grigs makes six solid picks, instead of trying to swing for the fences, which I think he's tried to do in the past, with very mixed results. 

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, southwest1 said:

I agree that no one really knows what draft picks are really gonna pan out at the next level unless a kid comes from good bloodline stock like say Howie Long's sons or something like that. I get that pass rushers & quality corners are more of an asset than say a RB by committee approach is, but I don't know if I'd say RBs & centers are valued the same. Usually, teams that say that are grossly deficient at 1 or both spots. Look, I get it. GMs put a premium on left tackles, QBs, & DBs where the bulk of their salary cap goes in most cases. 

 

However, I'm tired in not being able to run the darn ball. Seattle can run it, Pittsburgh can run it, the Rams can run it why the hades can't INDY? I wanna runs of like 4 yards a carry every time Gore touches the ball & the only way we do that is movement up front with the power pigs in the trenches. We sure haven't found Jeff Saturday's successor now have we dgb?  Nick Mangold has been a rock in the big apple for the Jets & his presence is crucial to their production on the ground. Every season the Colts go thru competition at center can't we just fill that spot with confidence already & give Gore a darn chance? 

 

I'm not mad at you buddy. I'm just sick of our pitiful yards on the ground I guess. If you wanna select a guy that can rotate every position on the line fine, I'm cool with that. 

Whatever it takes to run the ball I'm good with. I'm just of the feeling that there might not be that big of advantage from the best center in the draft to the second best...and second best to third best....and yet there is basically a full rd difference in draft placement....soo the value might be in waiting to take our center and opting to take another position higher....but by all means lets run the ball...#1 priority for me!

[Track Guy]

17 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Reitz gets hurt every time he plays guard. I think they need to leave him at tackle, where he's better than serviceable. 

 

Could that just kind of be coincidence though? I mean, are guards statistically injured more than tackles? I agree he's good enough to start at either spot. 

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, Track Guy said:

 

Could that just kind of be coincidence though? I mean, are guards statistically injured more than tackles? I agree he's good enough to start at either spot. 

 

I'm done trying to figure it out, I just know it always seems to happen when he's at guard. 

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

Mobile formatting, sorry...

 

Center is the easiest position, physically. Not mentally, not from a leadership standpoint. Those intangibles are reflected in scouting, but physical stature, talent and ability are way more important. 

 

So the guys with the size and movement ability to play tackle usually get drafted higher than guys who are too small, too stiff, too slow. Kelly plays center because he's at Alabama, not because he's not good enough to play elsewhere. He'd be a standout guard, and he's the same size as Whitehair who plays tackle at Kansas State; Kelly actually has slightly longer arms. His talent and refinement move him up the board, compared to guys who are less equipped than him.

For what its worth I've heard several analysts say he would be one of the best guards in the draft as well. Even though I may not be pushing to taking him at 18 I don't think he is a bad athlete or prospect. I've heard nothing but really good things about him....I just wonder how much better he is than a 2nd or 3rd rd center prospect and if we aren't paying a premium because he is an Alabama offensive lineman with name recognition. If the evaluators convince Grigson to go with him then I'll trust our leaders are making the right choice and be optimistic.

[GoColts00]

On 4/26/2016 at 3:19 PM, krunk said:

 

Kelly can play it's just better and more impactful athletes will be available at that pick.  The team is not cursed if we draft Kelly, we just think there's a number of really good centers in this draft that can be acquired outside of Pick 18

Totally agree. I think Matt Skura, Duke is underrated. He makes correct line calls which is why Duke's offensive line ranked 2nd in ACC & 6th nationally in fewest TFL. He was voted 2nd Team All-American by USA Today.

[BOTT]

6 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

I think it's funny that Woody would say that considering his struggles at center in his pro career

His struggles were the actual snapping of the ball, not the other things people associate the position with.

[BOTT]

7 hours ago, Shafty138 said:

hmm...ok

I assume that means you are going to believe what you want.

[jvan1973]

20 minutes ago, BOTT said:

His struggles were the actual snapping of the ball, not the other things people associate the position with.

That's the first thing that a center needs to do after calling out protection.    He couldn't snap out of shotgun.    If he couldn't handle that,   how can he say the position is easier than guard?

[krunk]

I've seen a number of rumors that say the Detroit Lions want Kelly pretty bad. And they pick 2 spots in front of us at 16. We may end up having to pick that center elsewhere.

[BOTT]

2 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

That's the first thing that a center needs to do after calling out protection.    He couldn't snap out of shotgun.    If he couldn't handle that,   how can he say the position is easier than guard?

I guess that tells you how easy the rest of playing center was for him.  Hell, on passing plays much of the time they are helping or not blocking anyone.

[jvan1973]

2 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I guess that tells you how easy the rest of playing center was for him.  Hell, on passing plays much of the time they are helping or not blocking anyone.

Not against a 3-4 defense they aren't

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

Not against a 3-4 defense they aren't

Depends.  I watched Setele get worked by the packers because he tried to help too much...when the best thing he could have done was nothing.  sadly he never figured out the delayed blitz that would smoke right past him.

[richard pallo]

5 minutes ago, krunk said:

I've seen a number of rumors that say the Detroit Lions want Kelly pretty bad. And they pick 2 spots in front of us at 16. We may end up having to pick that center elsewhere.

 I have also seen him mocked to Arizona, Seattle, Houston, Tennessee, among others all in the 1st. round.  Seems like a lot of experts think he is a center worth taking in the 1st. round.  And Detroit would pick him earlier than us. Wouldn't that be a shock.  

[stitches]

Matt Miller is pushing hard for Ryan Kelly to the Colts:

 

 

[DougDew]

For as much complaining I read about drafting a C at 18...and I am generally one of them...... Frederick, Pouncey, Pouncey, and Mack have all turned out pretty well.  Its hard to tell if any college rookie will be as good as them, but it seems like the scouting reports on Kelly sound about the same as the scouting reports did on the players mentioned.

[Coltfreak]

soooo.   What happens if Kelly is not available at 18???

 

i think he'll be gone  to Detroit 

 

can we move to a defensive playmaker??

  Can we???

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, Coltfreak said:

soooo.   What happens if Kelly is not available at 18???

 

i think he'll be gone  to Detroit 

 

can we move to a defensive playmaker??

  Can we???

Nkemdiche 

[richard pallo]

2 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

soooo.   What happens if Kelly is not available at 18???

 

i think he'll be gone  to Detroit 

 

can we move to a defensive playmaker??

  Can we???

If Kelly is gone go to Whitehair.  OL 1st.  Defense round 2. 

[Coltfreak]

2 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

If Kelly is gone go to Whitehair.  OL 1st.  Defense round 2. 

No way we draft a guard as our first pick. 

 

Go defense (which wins championships) then Martin in round 2

[richard pallo]

1 minute ago, Coltfreak said:

No way we draft a guard as our first pick. 

 

Go defense (which wins championships) then Martin in round 2

They could move him to center.  He has played all OL positions. He finished college playing tackle.

[krunk]

I'm okay with Whitehair or a DT like Austin Johnson as our #1 pick if we do a trade back to acquire more picks. Honestly I'd be okay with Austin Johnson at 18 if you ask me.

[hoosierhawk]

16 hours ago, BOTT said:

I didnt make it up.  I have listened to former interior lineman say it's the easiest...including Damian Woody.  It's only fans who think it's of great importance.

if it is that easy and that unimportant then if you definitely believe in best player available I would be surprise if a center ever showed up on anyone's draft board. as for Woody's quote, i'd have to hear it in context. I could h  Peyton making a statement like 'Playing QB was easy for him.' Could that be construed as playing QB is easy for everyone? We have a couple Cs on our roster that may disagree that playing C is easy..

[krunk]

i just feel we need to have at least 8 picks in this draft. We can get a bunch of very solid ball players. The value is there.

[rockywoj]

Mayock mocked RK to us, tonight.  He also said he's a big body that can play all 3 inside line positions.   I had also read, from several sources, that he's a guy that will step right in immediately at C and will likely be a Pro Bowler in short order.

 

If you accept that he's an immediate starter and will quickly establish himself as a Pro Bowl caliber centre, given the Colts' inside OL needs, I say you grab him with glee and you don't worry about the nit pickers that say at the 18th pick is 4-6 spots too high.  For goodness sakes, he sounds like the perfect player at a position of extreme need.  No regrets if he's the actual choice.

[southwest1]

6 hours ago, dgambill said:

Whatever it takes to run the ball I'm good with. I'm just of the feeling that there might not be that big of advantage from the best center in the draft to the second best...and second best to third best....and yet there is basically a full rd difference in draft placement....soo the value might be in waiting to take our center and opting to take another position higher....but by all means lets run the ball...#1 priority for me!

I read ya dgb. I just want a center that INDY can plug in for 12 yrs & go that position is wrapped up for a long time & not a liability anymore. If we just achieve that in this class alone, SW1 will be ecstatic man. Hopefully, Kelly is that man. 

[southwest1]

18 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

Mayock mocked RK to us, tonight.  He also said he's a big body that can play all 3 inside line positions.   I had also read, from several sources, that he's a guy that will step right in immediately at C and will likely be a Pro Bowler in short order.

 

If you accept that he's an immediate starter and will quickly establish himself as a Pro Bowl caliber centre, given the Colts' inside OL needs, I say you grab him with glee and you don't worry about the nit pickers that say at the 18th pick is 4-6 spots too high.  For goodness sakes, he sounds like the perfect player at a position of extreme need.  No regrets if he's the actual choice.

I trust Mike Mayock's football judgement implicitly. High praise from Mikey there. Pull the trigger Ryan. Don't hesitate. 

 

I often listen to Mike broadcast Notre Dame Football Games & NFL Network games. The man knows what the hades he's talking about both as a broadcaster & evaluator. Did he call Kelly a "meathead?" That's code for a meat & potatoes, rough & rouged, smart football player. A non sexy, in the trenches, freaking stud. 

[JPFolks]

On 4/26/2016 at 2:19 PM, Manning1887 said:

I was watching the NFL channel last night and they were hyping up Ryan Kelly big time! They were talking about the Redskins at #21, but mentioned generally teams in the 15-20 range being interested in him as well. 

Polian says he's the 4th best player in the draft.  He says Elliot is best.  For what it's worth anyway.