US Appeals Court Reinstates Brady's Suspension

[southwest1]

15 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I do understand the punishment is for obstructing the investigation and not cooperating...but the original sin here...to me that's worthy of a fine....and others here think he should be kicked out of the NFL....I'm just not understanding that mentality is all. I can understand as well that Tom wouldn't want to hand over his personal phone...its personal...it isn't a work phone....that said to stonewall the investigation etc...yeah I get the suspension....but to be a the point we are now...lets get back to football because this circus side show makes both sides look awful because the NFL botched things so badly they look horrible too. That's why I was like just settle it and be done. To think this all started over a few ounces of psi...its hard to believe we take sports this serious in America and we think its worthy of tying up the Supreme Court etc.

I do agree that since there is a fine for tampering with equipment/footballs with a specified fine, there is validity to the argument that the CBA clearly specifies that crime & monetary punishment in writing. 

 

Here's Judge Katzmann's best argument: 

 

"I am troubled by the Commissioner’s decision to uphold the unprecedented four‐game suspension. The Commissioner failed to even consider a highly relevant alternative penalty and relied, instead, on an inapt analogy to the League’s steroid policy. This deficiency, especially when viewed in combination with the shifting rationale for Brady’s discipline, leaves me to conclude that the Commissioner’s decision reflected “his own brand of industrial justice.”

 

In other words, a PED violation & an equipment violation are not an infraction of equal merit. Therefore, it's unfair to apply a drug violation to a performance standard based on a lowered PSI scale. Discipline rules have to be applied to a reasonable corresponding violation of identical scope. Has any other athlete in the NFL been given a 4 game suspension for the exact same violation in years past? Okay, there is some merit to this line of questioning even I can't deny that fact. 

 

But to me, anytime a person is accused of conduct "detrimental" to the integrity of the game coupled with obstruction, a suspension seems justified. Everybody signs the CBA willingly much like a credit card agreement. No one gets to alter the rules after they've agreed to comply with the terms & conditions contained therein even if you didn't read every word in the document. 

[bababooey]

40 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Let me ask you this... what if the 8th circuit appelate court rules against the NFL's appeal in the Adrian Peterson case?  Do we not have 2 different Federal Circuit courts divided in interpretation/application of Federal Law?  What is the job of the Supreme Court of the U.S.A. if not to resolve such discrepancies of this nature?

 

Therefore, the potential for this case to be heard by the SCOTUS is still a possibility.

 

I rest my case...

You're acting like each case is the same. Imagine the uproar if one of the 3% or so of cases the SC hears is this one?

[aaron11]

On 4/26/2016 at 9:46 AM, bayone said:

 According to SportsLine, the answer isn't if Garoppolo can win two games, it's if he can win three.

As you can see in the tables above, the Brady suspension only negatively impacts the Patriots by -0.4 losses. In fact, they'll boast a better than 70 percent chance to win three of the four games -- with the only tough matchup coming against the Cardinals.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25566302/jimmy-garoppolo-redux-examining-patriots-chances-without-tom-brady

i gamble sometimes, but  i cant put much stock in those odds right now.  we havent even had the draft yet and there is like half a year for injuries to happen

 

the colts were heavy favorites to make the playoffs last year too at this time

[ColtsBlueFL]

7 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Nice post CBFL. I wasn't angry with you personally my friend. Yes, Jeffrey Kessler & co. have every right to pursue whatever legal remedies they wish on behalf of their client that is true. I just hope other courts defer to the CBA in this matter. Thereby ending any further motions in this case. 

 

Also, most dissenting opinions aren't given any legal validity establishing new precedent so it really doesn't matter what Judge Katzmann thinks in this case. He's entitled to his opinion sure, but does his argument create new law or strengthen Brady's case for a complete dismal of the original suspension? No, not in a courtroom of law it doesn't. 

 

NP, I know your beef isn't with me.  And everyone wants it over with (especially those of us that are n favor of the decision currently). Is it not possible that Kessler and friends hope that maybe 12 out of the 22 will side with Katzmann?  (I personally feel there will not but I digress...)  Thus what's the harm to ask for a full circuit judge panel hearing of the case?  It would stay the suspension and give time for the 8th circuit to release their ruling in the NFL appeal in the Adrian Peterson case.  Depending upon that outcome lies the potential to successfully petition the Supreme Court to make a final ruling.

 

I don't know where this will lead, but from the very beginning I've felt  it to be about “... the integrity  of  the  process  rather  than  the  propriety  of  the  result.”

 

I said that unless the NFLPA can prove one of the following was blatantly violated by Goodell/NFL-

 

* Where the award was procured by corruption, fraud, or undue means;

 

* Where there was evident partiality or corruption in the arbitrators;

 

* Where  the  arbitrators  were  guilty  of misconduct  in  refusing  to  postpone   the  hearing,  upon  sufficient  cause  shown,  or  in  refusing  to hear  evidence  pertinent  and  material  to  the  controversy,  or  of  any  other  misbehavior  by  which the rights of any party  have been prejudiced; or

 

* Where  the  arbitrators  exceeded  their  powers,  or  so imperfectly  executed  them  that  a  mutual,  final,  and  definite  award  upon the subject  matter  submitted was not made.

 

That's a tall order to fill.  It felt like Kessler and group kept moving off the prize (listed above) toward tricking the court in retrying the case and then 'legislating from the bench' in a technical / judicial shell game.  2/3 panel in 2nd circuit court felt  none of the above listed was flagrantly violated, addressed Berman's 'outstanding issues' of the case, and thus remanded the case back to Berman with only one recourse- Confirm the Award.  (Seems weird that in the end, the Award is the potential 4 games suspension of Tom Brady.)

 

Pretty firm, but not the absolute end, yet, if the NFLPA / Brady wish to continue to drag it out.

[southwest1]

16 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

NP, I know your beef isn't with me.  And everyone wants it over with (especially those of us that are n favor of the decision currently). Is it not possible that Kessler and friends hope that maybe 12 out of the 22 will side with Katzmann?  (I personally feel there will not but I digress...)  Thus what's the harm to ask for a full circuit judge panel hearing of the case?  It would stay the suspension and give time for the 8th circuit to release their ruling in the NFL appeal in the Adrian Peterson case.  Depending upon that outcome lies the potential to successfully petition the Supreme Court to make a final ruling.

 

I don't know where this will lead, but from the very beginning I've felt  it to be about “... the integrity  of  the  process  rather  than  the  propriety  of  the  result.”

 

I said that unless the NFLPA can prove one of the following was blatantly violated by Goodell/NFL-

 

* Where the award was procured by corruption, fraud, or undue means;

 

* Where there was evident partiality or corruption in the arbitrators;

 

* Where  the  arbitrators  were  guilty  of misconduct  in  refusing  to  postpone   the  hearing,  upon  sufficient  cause  shown,  or  in  refusing  to hear  evidence  pertinent  and  material  to  the  controversy,  or  of  any  other  misbehavior  by  which the rights of any party  have been prejudiced; or

 

* Where  the  arbitrators  exceeded  their  powers,  or  so imperfectly  executed  them  that  a  mutual,  final,  and  definite  award  upon the subject  matter  submitted was not made.

 

That's a tall order to fill.  It felt like Kessler and group kept moving off the prize (listed above) toward tricking the court in retrying the case and then 'legislating from the bench' in a technical / judicial shell game.  2/3 panel in 2nd circuit court felt  none of the above listed was flagrantly violated, addressed Berman's 'outstanding issues' of the case, and thus remanded the case back to Berman with only one recourse- Confirm the Award.  (Seems weird that in the end, the Award is the potential 4 games suspension of Tom Brady.)

 

Pretty firm, but not the absolute end, yet, if the NFLPA / Brady wish to continue to drag it out.

The funny thing is that most judges don't want to write new law just interpret what's already there. Kessler is basically saying Brady can only be held accountable for what the CBA spells out specially in writing nothing more. Whereas the Commissioner is more or less saying that this situation was so unprecedented that no CBA jargon would have covered this violation & therefore some room for additional interpretation on the part of this infraction is warranted & in fact, necessary. 

 

At some point, Deflate Gate must die or run out of steam right? LOL! No side gets everything they want litigation wise. Brady's got serve some time for this: 2 games at a bare minimum. Will that happen? Who knows. 

 

Nice talking with you as always CBFL.

[ColtsBlueFL]

23 minutes ago, bababooey said:

You're acting like each case is the same. Imagine the uproar if one of the 3% or so of cases the SC hears is this one?

 

Judge Doty vacated an NFL arbitration award against Adrian Peterson in a conduct detrimental case.  Judge Berman vacated an NFL arbitration award in a conduct detrimental case against Tom Brady.

 

NFL appeals Adrian Peterson case-

"We believe strongly that Judge Doty's order is incorrect and fundamentally at odds with well-established legal precedent governing the district court's role in reviewing arbitration decisions," McCarthy said. "As a result, we have filed a notice of appeal to have the ruling reviewed by the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals."

 

NFL appeals Tom Brady case-

"We are grateful to Judge Berman for hearing this matter, but respectfully disagree with today’s decision," Goodell said in a statement. "We will appeal today’s ruling in order to uphold the collectively bargained responsibility to protect the integrity of the game. The commissioner’s responsibility to secure the competitive fairness of our game is a paramount principle, and the league and our 32 clubs will continue to pursue a path to that end. While the legal phase of this process continues, we look forward to focusing on football and the opening of the regular season."    {Second Circuit Court of Appeals}

 

Second circuit court beats the 8th to a decision ultimately ruling for the NFL (Remands case back to Berman to confirm the award).

 

What if the Eighth Circuit rules in favor of the NFLPA / Adrian Peterson?

 

 

"Well, as sports attorney Daniel Wallach explained Monday on 98.5 The Sports Hub’s “Zolak and Bertrand,” a circuit split — a situation in which two appellate courts issue conflicting rulings on similar cases — would emerge if the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals rules in favor of Peterson. And that ultimately would be a good thing for Brady, whose four-game Deflategate suspension was reinstated Monday by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. “If you have two different federal appellate courts viewing the role of an arbitrator under the NFL CBA differently, you have a split among the circuit courts,” Wallach said, via CBS Boston. “And circuit splits are the No. 1 reason why the U.S. Supreme Court takes a case. Ninety percent of the Supreme Court’s dockets are because of circuit splits, to try to afford uniformity in federal law."

 

 

[bababooey]

35 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Judge Doty vacated an NFL arbitration award against Adrian Peterson in a conduct detrimental case.  Judge Berman vacated an NFL arbitration award in a conduct detrimental case against Tom Brady.

 

NFL appeals Adrian Peterson case-

"We believe strongly that Judge Doty's order is incorrect and fundamentally at odds with well-established legal precedent governing the district court's role in reviewing arbitration decisions," McCarthy said. "As a result, we have filed a notice of appeal to have the ruling reviewed by the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals."

 

NFL appeals Tom Brady case-

"We are grateful to Judge Berman for hearing this matter, but respectfully disagree with today’s decision," Goodell said in a statement. "We will appeal today’s ruling in order to uphold the collectively bargained responsibility to protect the integrity of the game. The commissioner’s responsibility to secure the competitive fairness of our game is a paramount principle, and the league and our 32 clubs will continue to pursue a path to that end. While the legal phase of this process continues, we look forward to focusing on football and the opening of the regular season."    {Second Circuit Court of Appeals}

 

Second circuit court beats the 8th to a decision ultimately ruling for the NFL (Remands case back to Berman to confirm the award).

 

What if the Eighth Circuit rules in favor of the NFLPA / Adrian Peterson?

 

 

"Well, as sports attorney Daniel Wallach explained Monday on 98.5 The Sports Hub’s “Zolak and Bertrand,” a circuit split — a situation in which two appellate courts issue conflicting rulings on similar cases — would emerge if the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals rules in favor of Peterson. And that ultimately would be a good thing for Brady, whose four-game Deflategate suspension was reinstated Monday by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. “If you have two different federal appellate courts viewing the role of an arbitrator under the NFL CBA differently, you have a split among the circuit courts,” Wallach said, via CBS Boston. “And circuit splits are the No. 1 reason why the U.S. Supreme Court takes a case. Ninety percent of the Supreme Court’s dockets are because of circuit splits, to try to afford uniformity in federal law."

 

 

Brady serves. If there wasn't a chance the NFL would reopen settlement talks 

[BloodyChamp]

The loser of the Championship games are usually hung over. It would be no surprise if AZ took a massive fall this year. We all know Palmer is near the end, Fitz is a year older, and a ton of other guys are too. I love that team personally and that's not necessarily my prediction, and it's probably nobody elses............which would make it hilarious if Jimmy beat them by 50 and the homers already had to damage control for Brady like they were already 4-0 lol!

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

The loser of the Championship games are usually hung over. It would be no surprise if AZ took a massive fall this year. We all know Palmer is near the end, Fitz is a year older, and a ton of other guys are too. I love that team personally and that's not necessarily my prediction, and it's probably nobody elses............which would make it hilarious if Jimmy beat them by 50 and the homers already had to damage control for Brady like they were already 4-0 lol!

If the Pats start 4-0 without Tom I think their fans would be so confused that they wouldn't be sure to be happy or sad because they think Tom walks on water  I actually enjoyed Hass winning games while Andrew was injured. I just want wins for my team.

[BloodyChamp]

O yeah just imagine the comebacks they whip up about how Hass won in Indy like he put on passing clinics against the Jags and Titans lol!

[2006Coltsbestever]

15 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

O yeah just imagine the comebacks they whip up about how Hass won in Indy like he put on passing clinics against the Jags and Titans lol!

Had we made the Playoffs without Andrew I am sure they would use that as ammunition against how important Andrew is too Indy. They were doing that with Peyton when Brock won a few games in Denver. I actually was glad we were winning but unfortunately Hass was 1 dimensional as he couldn't run or throw deep. He did play smart and threw the short ball quickly and well which I hope Andrew improves on. Losing to the Texans here in Indy was when Hass ran out of steam, Andrew would've won that game IMO.

[southwest1]

I don't buy this parallel stickum argument that deflation of footballs is the same as applying a substance that increases a player's grip either. 

 

"The League prohibits the use of stickum, a substance that enhances a player’s grip. Under a collectively bargained‐for Schedule of Fines, a violation of this prohibition warrants an $8,268 fine in the absence of aggravating circumstances. Given that both the use of stickum and the deflation of footballs involve attempts at improving one’s grip and evading the referees’ enforcement f the rules, this would seem a natural starting point for assessing Brady’s penalty. Indeed, the League’s justification for prohibiting stickum—that it “affects the integrity of the competition and can give a team an unfair advantage" 

 

It's not just about a QB's gripping ability Judge Katzmann. It about the distance a ball travels with less air in it & what about RBs who are less likely to fumble a ball with less air in it? Stickum usually refers to pitchers in baseball & the use of that product usually only provides an unfair advantage to that single player alone on the mound. However, less air pressure in a football can give an advantage to a QB, a RB, a WR, or a TE. Anybody on offense that touches the ball. 

 

I find it odd that anyone who sides with Brady always cites science, exact CBA wording, or the Commissioner for overstepping his authority. Instead of asking Brady why he felt the need to be evasive? Why he felt his reputation was so threatened or compromised by Goodell's suspension? And if you were confronted again with the same circumstances, what would you do now? Ignorance of the rules or CBA stipulations that you yourself signed & agreed to adhere to is no excuse or defense Brady. 

 

Yes, I know Brady supporters will always say well what about Aaron Rogers who over inflates his footballs? Easy to counter just by saying that a ball with more air in it is heavier, travels slower that a lighter one on passes, & if anything, a ball with more weight to it adds has a higher probability of injury to the WR or TE who catches it with broken or dislocated fingers equaling no competitive advantage to the GB Packers in NFL regular season games etc. etc.  

[southwest1]

"But the Commissioner’s murky explanation of Brady’s discipline undercuts the protections for which the NFLPA bargained on Brady’s, and others’, behalf. It is ironic that a process designed to ensure fairness to all players has been used unfairly against one player." 

 

Murky explanation Judge Katzmann? It's 1 thing to believe that the duration of a suspension seems excessive in your view, but just because you disagree with the Commissioner's reasoning doesn't mean that the penalty is draconian or malicious in scope. Brady isn't being singled out as a diabolical villain here. 

 

I would ask magistrate Katzmann this question: How fair is it to waste all of the players association's financial resources on one elite HOF QB exclusively in a single case? Their membership consists of more than Tom Brady correct? Not every player in the union is thrilled with spending so much money on 1 marquee player I would imagine. 

[southwest1]

I also wonder why every time that there is a new appeal heard in Deflate Gate a  summary of events that transpired in this case seems to always be required. We all know the key participants & how things unfolded here. It's a waste of time, typing, & covering old ground. Why not just discuss the current dynamic at hand? Namely, whether or not the league has the authority to discipline Brady based on what they deem as obstruction or stonewalling an investigation? Why even mention the Wells Report findings at this juncture? 

 

No wonder briefs/motions take so long to read. I just don't care to rehash material that isn't relevant to what the Second Circuit is determining today or within the past few days. I get the value in a historical NFL reference context, but not every single time Deflate Gate has a new ruling.  

 

I feel like followers of this case keep getting bombarded with a duplicate retelling of this case every time something new develops. Like a just in case you forgot crash course reminder session. It's both unnecessary overflow & hilarious at the same time. Just an observation. 

[BullsColtsFan1]

http://nesn.com/2016/04/ex-bronco-loves-tom-brady-ruling-compares-patriots-to-mlb-steroid-era/

[bayone]

On 4/28/2016 at 8:11 PM, aaron11 said:

i gamble sometimes, but  i cant put much stock in those odds right now.  we havent even had the draft yet and there is like half a year for injuries to happen

 

the colts were heavy favorites to make the playoffs last year too at this time

 

didnt say i believed it, , just posted it in response  to those saying 1 & 4 or  0 & 4 were  possible

[csmopar]

Brady granted a 2 week extension to file appeal after adding top lawyer a Olson to team

 

 

Sounds like crybaby still isn't done and this heads to the Supreme court

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Brady granted a 2 week extension to file appeal after adding top lawyer a Olson to team

 

 

Sounds like crybaby still isn't done and this heads to the Supreme court

 

I can't imagine this ever goes to the Supreme Court. They pick what cases they want, and I don't think this one would make the cut.

 

He likely will appeal to the full circuit court, though, and if that doesn't go his way, he'll submit to the Supreme Court. No other reason to hire a former solicitor general.

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, csmopar said:

Brady granted a 2 week extension to file appeal after adding top lawyer a Olson to team

 

 

Sounds like crybaby still isn't done and this heads to the Supreme court

 

Not likely, unless the 8th circuit court rules in favor of Adrian Peterson.  Then the Supreme court would be obligated to take the case and resolve the federal appellate court split.

[bababooey]

12 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Not likely, unless the 8th circuit court rules in favor of Adrian Peterson.  Then the Supreme court would be obligated to take the case and resolve the federal appellate court split.

How is the Supreme Court obligated to take one case based on the resolution of a separate case?

[ColtsBlueFL]

3 hours ago, bababooey said:

How is the Supreme Court obligated to take one case based on the resolution of a separate case?

 

Because one circuit court (8th) would have then (if they do so) vacated an arbitration award from the NFL, and another circuit court has confirmed an award for the NFL in an arbitrated case.  It one of the main responsibilities of the Supreme Court.  Either the CBA protects the sovereignty of the NFL in its punitive actions decided by an agreed upon binding process, or it does not.  It can't be both. That's where the Supreme Court comes into play.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_split#Resolving_circuit_splits_at_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

 

 

 

 

[csmopar]

21 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I can't imagine this ever goes to the Supreme Court. They pick what cases they want, and I don't think this one would make the cut.

 

He likely will appeal to the full circuit court, though, and if that doesn't go his way, he'll submit to the Supreme Court. No other reason to hire a former solicitor general.

What I meant was that he's gonna fight it all the way to the Supreme court....or at least try too

[bababooey]

On 4/26/2016 at 11:27 PM, Superman said:

 

I've said all along that I don't think Brady winds up serving a single game.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, bababooey said:

 

You didn't have to break out the shovel. I beat you to it in the other thread.

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 4/27/2016 at 8:09 PM, bababooey said:

You're acting like each case is the same. Imagine the uproar if one of the 3% or so of cases the SC hears is this one?

 

They are labor law cases involving Arbitration awards either being confirmed or vacated. Details are less important unless they show bias, fraud, or evident partiality on the part of the arbitrator.

 

The U.S. Congress and SCOTUS do not want Federal courts having to deal with arbitration cases: a venue specifically designed to lessen the workload of the court system itself.  Only is specific cases and it boils down to the above, not whether the arbitrator made the 'right' decision or not.

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

 

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

You didn't have to break out the shovel. I beat you to it in the other thread.

 

I was inclined to believe in this too.  We were all wrong.

[bababooey]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

You didn't have to break out the shovel. I beat you to it in the other thread.

I couldn't keep up. I'm just playing, bud. Even Michael Jordan missed a few shots, and if this was one thing to be wrong on then we are all happy!

[lollygagger8]