Robert Kraft tried to regain Patriots' draft pick in a letter to Roger Goodell

[Yehoodi]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

It became more of an issue with the refusal of Brady to be forthright in an investigation. It then and only then became more than just a simple fine for $8,600 when Brady destroyed his cell phone in an attempt to tamper with proof or the ability to clear his involvement in this matter. You can omit what you care to but the facts are what they are. It don't take a rocket scientist to know when someone is ask a direct yes or no question and the reply is "I don't know"  puts serious doubt into the truthfulness of the answer. You say folks try to make it bigger than it is? No, Brady himself made it bigger than it is himself by not doing what he could have done to clear this up. He is the one and the only one who had the opportunity to end this when given the chance.

 

Really?  More of an issue when Brady "refuse" to answer a question to your satisfaction.   You are now getting into the facts of the case. 

 

I was making a simply point of taking it at its worst for the Pats is all you have is X, this is the inflation of footballs not national security, bugging a locker room, stealing playbooks, hacking into computers or something.   Actions by folks, resources dedicated and reactions need to be reflective and proportional of the act committed.   Remember how the NFL reacted when they caught the Vikings/Panthers warming footballs?  . . .   "move along boys" 

 

As for the facts and how Brady should of handle the situation, you and I both know when reasonable minds can understand that the facts show innocence as much as guilt.  And if Brady was indeed innocent, why should he admit to guilt?  Just to satisfy folks?  And you must remember the leak by the NFL two days after the event was patently false. 

 

Also, btw, here is the exact quote:

 

When asked if he was a cheater Brady responded.

 

"I don’t believe so. I feel like I’ve always played within the rules. I would never do anything to break the rules. I believe in fair play and I respect the league and everything they’re doing to try to create a very competitive playing field for all the NFL teams. It’s a very competitive league. Every team is trying to do the best they can to win every week. I believe in fair play and I’ll always believe in that for as long as I’m playing."

 

The words "I would never do anything to break the rules" are clear and so is the intent of the person saying those words or how a person was describing his actions with respect to the rules.  The only thing we need to concern ourselves with is Brady's feeling if he broke a rule and he was clear about this point.  Never=No.   

 

But in the end of the day my initial point was that the reaction was bigger than the crime.  It is kind of like this recent HGH thing.  There are active players and retried players named.  Should the NFL spend a few million to investigate this situation, or just spend some resources to investigate?  Should the NFL give the 3rd degree to the named persons to see if they crack? Try to get cells phones to see if they can get an admission in a text? Etc? And same holds true for any other alleged act.  Things need to be in perspective.  The more heinous the act, the more investigation may be required.  

 

I do not disagree with your points about an individual forting an investigation when he is guilty of the crime and takes some level of responsibility for things escalating.  At the same time we must understand if one is indeed innocent he should not capitulate just to make things "easy."  As for "ending things" the NFL could of just as easily fined the pats 100K-300k the week after the AFCCG for 12 balls that appeared to have some level of human tampering and this would of been all over by January 23, 2105.   But the NFL chose not to take that route.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Really?  More of an issue when Brady "refuse" to answer a question to your satisfaction.   You are now getting into the facts of the case. 

 

I was making a simply point of taking it at its worst for the Pats is all you have is X, this is the inflation of footballs not national security, bugging a locker room, stealing playbooks, hacking into computers or something.   Actions by folks, resources dedicated and reactions need to be reflective and proportional of the act committed.   Remember how the NFL reacted when they caught the Vikings/Panthers warming footballs?  . . .   "move along boys" 

 

As for the facts and how Brady should of handle the situation, you and I both know when reasonable minds can understand that the facts show innocence as much as guilt.  And if Brady was indeed innocent, why should he admit to guilt?  Just to satisfy folks?  And you must remember the leak by the NFL two days after the event was patently false. 

 

Also, btw, here is the exact quote:

 

When asked if he was a cheater Brady responded.

 

"I don’t believe so. I feel like I’ve always played within the rules. I would never do anything to break the rules. I believe in fair play and I respect the league and everything they’re doing to try to create a very competitive playing field for all the NFL teams. It’s a very competitive league. Every team is trying to do the best they can to win every week. I believe in fair play and I’ll always believe in that for as long as I’m playing."

 

The words "I would never do anything to break the rules" are clear and so is the intent of the person saying those words or how a person was describing his actions with respect to the rules.  The only thing we need to concern ourselves with is Brady's feeling if he broke a rule and he was clear about this point.  Never=No.   

 

But in the end of the day my initial point was that the reaction was bigger than the crime.  It is kind of like this recent HGH thing.  There are active players and retried players named.  Should the NFL spend a few million to investigate this situation, or just spend some resources to investigate?  Should the NFL give the 3rd degree to the named persons to see if they crack? Try to get cells phones to see if they can get an admission in a text? Etc? And same holds true for any other alleged act.  Things need to be in perspective.  The more heinous the act, the more investigation may be required.  

 

I do not disagree with your points about an individual forting an investigation when he is guilty of the crime and takes some level of responsibility for things escalating.  At the same time we must understand if one is indeed innocent he should not capitulate just to make things "easy."  As for "ending things" the NFL could of just as easily fined the pats 100K-300k the week after the AFCCG for 12 balls that appeared to have some level of human tampering and this would of been all over by January 23, 2105.   But the NFL chose not to take that route.

To my satisfaction? Not hardly. Brady did nothing to change the perception of the Patriots within the NFL or the general public. You have rehearsed your take or opinion so much you have convinced yourself to be the total truth.

[Yehoodi]

4 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

 To my satisfaction? Not hardly. Brady did nothing to change the perception of the Patriots within the NFL or the general public. You have rehearsed your take or opinion so much you have convinced yourself to be the total truth.

 

I have not rehearsed anything.  

 

I feel the same way about this case as I did with the Ray Rice, Adrian Pederson case, and to the extent I followed the Bounty Case cases.   My theme has been consistent and always will be, I don't view the law or discipline by the color of a jersey. 

 

In the end of the day crazycolt1, nobody, me nor you, can change how the NFL viewed and acted, prior to Jan 2015, towards folks who messed with footballs and there have been a few in the past few years that have done so.   Similarly, no one can change how the NFL has treated folks who deny their actions and/or do not hand over cell phones prior to Jan. 2015, and again there have been many. 

 

You and I can have differences of opinion as to how the Pats and Brady should be treated, fair enough, but we can not change the NFL's disciplinary history.

 

 

 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Yehoodi said:

 

I have not rehearsed anything.  

 

I feel the same way about this case as I did with the Ray Rice, Adrian Pederson case, and to the extent I followed the Bounty Case cases.   My theme has been consistent and always will be, I don't view the law or discipline by the color of a jersey. 

 

In the end of the day crazycolt1, nobody, me nor you, can change how the NFL viewed and acted, prior to Jan 2015, towards folks who messed with footballs and there have been a few in the past few years that have done so.   Similarly, no one can change how the NFL has treated folks who deny their actions and/or do not hand over cell phones prior to Jan. 2015, and again there have been many. 

 

You and I can have differences of opinion as to how the Pats and Brady should be treated, fair enough, but we can not change the NFL's disciplinary history.

 

 

 

So you feel repeat offenders should not be dealt with with harsher penalties? Even the court systems don't see it that way. You also contradict yourself when you say the color of the jersey makes no difference to you. Correct me if I am wrong in saying the Patriots and Robert Kraft have been the most penalized team in the league. I would love to hear your excuses for that.

[Yehoodi]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

So you feel repeat offenders should not be dealt with with harsher penalties? Even the court systems don't see it that way. You also contradict yourself when you say the color of the jersey makes no difference to you. Correct me if I am wrong in saying the Patriots and Robert Kraft have been the most penalized team in the league. I would love to hear your excuses for that.

 

Sorry long post, thanks in advance for your patience.

 

Crazycolt1, I think we need to be careful throwing around the repeat offenders label.  I do not view it as perhaps you, and others, may view the label.  

 

Yes laws do increase penalties for repeat offenders, but it is always the same person (entity) that is committing the crimes.   It may be increase penalties for the same crimes, like 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. OUIs.  It could also be a harsher penalty for a different crime but you have a three page rap sheet of different crimes.  But regardless it deals with the same person committing the crime themselves, and that is why they impose it on you as you are the one that is repeatedly doing it.  I do agree with increase penalties for repeat offenders.

 

What is dicey about Deflategate is the fact that Brady, a player, was the one committing/ordering the act, as opposed to the team administrators or coaches ordering the action, an institutional action by the team.  For me, there is a difference there and I do not impose the liability for the actions taken by Brady on to the team.  

 

Indeed, honest question Crazycolt1.  In 2009, the Jets were caught violating the same rule in question when its employees and kicker were caught altering kicking balls, from my memory the NFL had employees suspended.  In 2014, the owner of the jets was caught tampering with Revis.  In your heart of hearts do you feel that the Jets in the second act a repeat offender?  Or do you feel like it the acts where one by a player and one act by the team? 

 

I throw in there the special team incident a few years ago when the Jets ST coach ordered the players to line up just outside the white chalk and a player stuck out his knee when the dolphin gunner ran by and got hurt.  Do any of these three incidents make you think that the Jets are repeat offenders when all actions were done to gain an unfair advantage for the team?  Or do you view them as separate acts by separate levels of the team?  

 

See I view them as being committed by separate parts of the team, just as I do Deflategate and Spygate.  The latter was action by the coach and the former by a player.  I can see the one by the coach be attached to the team but not the one by the player (as I view the jets kicker incident above, and again same rule btw).   Now had the coaches ordered the alterations of the ball then I would agree the pats are repeat offenders, two institutional acts to gain an unfair advantage.

 

Some blur the lines above, but in my book one can not honestly do so.   Indeed, do the Atlanta Falcons have to live with the Sword of Damocles over their head if a player is caught with PEDs just because the team has a "prior" of the piping in crowd noise?  I think most would say no.

 

Sorry for long winded explanation but is the only way I can lay out my thoughts and it also it not a simple connection.  Again thanks for reading.

 

As for the color of the jersey, it is not the pats that have gotten the short end of the stick, as I have mentioned in the other incidents I cited.  For instance the Ray Rice case.  Both precedent of prior suspensions (30 to be exact) and a clause in the NFL docs have a domestic violence action to be only a 2 game suspension which is what Goodell originally imposed until the upheaval by the masses (understandably so). 

 

Goodell then claimed he was "wrong" and raised the suspension, which was wrong.  But Rice is out of football.  Sure the team might of cut him but that is for the team to do and does not justify Goodell's decision to raise the suspension ex post facto.   The same pattern is seen in the other cases that I cited.  An action, national upheaval and ex post facto actions by Goodell.   So its not just the pats that have this happen to them. 

 

And yes I do think the penalties are too harsh.   And again I do not have a problem with large fines going to each Brady (act + obstruction) and the team (altering rule).   The fact that Vincent and Goodell imposed the penalties that they did does not change my view above nor does it make me think the actions by Brady were any more heinous than the actions of similarly situated players (jets kicker to name one).  

 

Crazycolt1, thanks again for taking time to read my post.  

[Yehoodi]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

So you feel repeat offenders should not be dealt with with harsher penalties? Even the court systems don't see it that way. You also contradict yourself when you say the color of the jersey makes no difference to you. Correct me if I am wrong in saying the Patriots and Robert Kraft have been the most penalized team in the league. I would love to hear your excuses for that.

 

Oh and one more thing.  Although I do agree with harsher penalties for repeat offenders, the harsher penalties still need to be within the guidelines for the penalties of the subsequent actions, and not just a piling on of increasing penalties. 

 

So if first incident carried a penalty of a first round pick, but the second one had a range of penalty of a fine between 0 and 1 million dollars.  The second penalty can not be two first round picks, but something higher on the fine scale than someone who is committing his first offense. 

[southwest1]

4 hours ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Really?  More of an issue when Brady "refuse" to answer a question to your satisfaction.   You are now getting into the facts of the case. 

 

I was making a simply point of taking it at its worst for the Pats is all you have is X, this is the inflation of footballs not national security, bugging a locker room, stealing playbooks, hacking into computers or something.   Actions by folks, resources dedicated and reactions need to be reflective and proportional of the act committed.   Remember how the NFL reacted when they caught the Vikings/Panthers warming footballs?  . . .   "move along boys" 

 

As for the facts and how Brady should of handle the situation, you and I both know when reasonable minds can understand that the facts show innocence as much as guilt.  And if Brady was indeed innocent, why should he admit to guilt?  Just to satisfy folks?  And you must remember the leak by the NFL two days after the event was patently false. 

 

Also, btw, here is the exact quote:

 

When asked if he was a cheater Brady responded.

 

"I don’t believe so. I feel like I’ve always played within the rules. I would never do anything to break the rules. I believe in fair play and I respect the league and everything they’re doing to try to create a very competitive playing field for all the NFL teams. It’s a very competitive league. Every team is trying to do the best they can to win every week. I believe in fair play and I’ll always believe in that for as long as I’m playing."

 

The words "I would never do anything to break the rules" are clear and so is the intent of the person saying those words or how a person was describing his actions with respect to the rules.  The only thing we need to concern ourselves with is Brady's feeling if he broke a rule and he was clear about this point.  Never=No.   

 

But in the end of the day my initial point was that the reaction was bigger than the crime.  It is kind of like this recent HGH thing.  There are active players and retried players named.  Should the NFL spend a few million to investigate this situation, or just spend some resources to investigate?  Should the NFL give the 3rd degree to the named persons to see if they crack? Try to get cells phones to see if they can get an admission in a text? Etc? And same holds true for any other alleged act.  Things need to be in perspective.  The more heinous the act, the more investigation may be required.  

 

I do not disagree with your points about an individual forting an investigation when he is guilty of the crime and takes some level of responsibility for things escalating.  At the same time we must understand if one is indeed innocent he should not capitulate just to make things "easy."  As for "ending things" the NFL could of just as easily fined the pats 100K-300k the week after the AFCCG for 12 balls that appeared to have some level of human tampering and this would of been all over by January 23, 2105.   But the NFL chose not to take that route.

Yehoodi, 

 

Because I respect you & your well thought arguments, I will concede that NE fans do have a legitimate reason to be upset that the Vikings got a pass on warmed up footballs & the Atlanta Falcons got off with a joke of a fine over pumping fake noise into their stadium. So, Foxboro fans are justified in their anger that their penalties imposed by the league are usually harsher than they need to be in comparison to other franchises. 

 

Regarding what I highlighted in blue. It's more than just if Brady believes he didn't break the rules. I do applaud you for putting his full statement there for context. It's a question of what we already know from the Wells Report minus it's scientific findings. 1 equipment manager called himself "the deflator" in text messages & the other one was called up to Brady's office once & only once & asked by Brady "how are you holding up?" Now, is it possible that Brady ordered these equipment managers to lower air pressure in balls & Brady didn't believe or know that PSI levels were a closely observed NFL rule? Sure, it is. I didn't know there was a specific air pressure rule in the NFL until this incident unfolded at the AFC Championship Game. I won't lie to ya. I had no idea. Is it possible other owners wanted retribution from SpyGate? Probably. I just think Tom didn't want to throw his equipment guys under the bus for something he instructed them to do originally. I just needed Brady to be outraged at the notion that he cheated finding the accusation absurd & I never got that which shocked me. I needed a visceral reaction of furry & never received it. 

 

Yes, on the surface, the PSI infraction is a minor one. A valid point Yehoodi. Not much of a competitive edge since after halftime, the balls were fully inflated & Tom Brady kicked my Colts's caboose. Touche. 

 

I also understand NE fans frustrations over the alleged HGH Manning scandal. I came to his defense & called the charges ridiculous myself. Why Foxboro got so mad is that Peyton had legions of defenders dismissing the charges while Boston fans were left feeling like Brady was a pariah simply because of what Bill Belichick was fought guilty of in 2007 with SpyGate. I get it; the sins of the HC should not stain permanently & unfairly your HOF QB. Makes perfect sense. 

 

I'm over Deflate Gate. I also believe that if he wasn't disciplined in the season the infraction took place why bother now? I know it's a Commissioner CBA power thing. But, it's a bad look now by Goodell punishing Brady a year later JMO. 

 

Always a pleasure talking to you Yehoodi. 

[crazycolt1]

27 minutes ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Oh and one more thing.  Although I do agree with harsher penalties for repeat offenders, the harsher penalties still need to be within the guidelines for the penalties of the subsequent actions, and not just a piling on of increasing penalties. 

 

So if first incident carried a penalty of a first round pick, but the second one had a range of penalty of a fine between 0 and 1 million dollars.  The second penalty can not be two first round picks, but something higher on the fine scale than someone who is committing his first offense. 

I do appreciate your thoughts as this has been kept civil on both sides of the issue. My reply to the issues you brought up regarding the Jets, Vikings and Falcons is they were not charged with actions detrimental to the league as far as I can remember. The seriousness of that charge does bring stronger penalties, as it should. Your arguments are based in the concept that what other teams did should set the preference on what the Patriots did or didn't do. That concept was negotiated away with the collective bargaining agreement agreed to by the players. They themselves gave Goodell the power to have soul power to determine penalties and fines. Now the Patriots want to call foul when Goodell did come down on them with the concept that it wasn't fair or that is not what was done to other teams. All I can say to that is fairness has zero to do with it. To point a finger at Goodell when Kraft is one of the owners who went right along with the collective agreement and signed off on it. In a sense the players themselves were responsible by not covering issues such as this in the agreement. As far as Goodell is concerned he is only the face of majority ownership. I wont go down that road because that is a whole different issue.

[Yehoodi]

11 hours ago, southwest1 said:

Yehoodi, 

 

Because I respect you & your well thought arguments, I will concede that NE fans do have a legitimate reason to be upset that the Vikings got a pass on warmed up footballs & the Atlanta Falcons got off with a joke of a fine over pumping fake noise into their stadium. So, Foxboro fans are justified in their anger that their penalties imposed by the league are usually harsher than they need to be in comparison to other franchises. 

 

Regarding what I highlighted in blue. It's more than just if Brady believes he didn't break the rules. I do applaud you for putting his full statement there for context. It's a question of what we already know from the Wells Report minus it's scientific findings. 1 equipment manager called himself "the deflator" in text messages & the other one was called up to Brady's office once & only once & asked by Brady "how are you holding up?" Now, is it possible that Brady ordered these equipment managers to lower air pressure in balls & Brady didn't believe or know that PSI levels were a closely observed NFL rule? Sure, it is. I didn't know there was a specific air pressure rule in the NFL until this incident unfolded at the AFC Championship Game. I won't lie to ya. I had no idea. Is it possible other owners wanted retribution from SpyGate? Probably. I just think Tom didn't want to throw his equipment guys under the bus for something he instructed them to do originally. I just needed Brady to be outraged at the notion that he cheated finding the accusation absurd & I never got that which shocked me. I needed a visceral reaction of furry & never received it. 

 

Yes, on the surface, the PSI infraction is a minor one. A valid point Yehoodi. Not much of a competitive edge since after halftime, the balls were fully inflated & Tom Brady kicked my Colts's caboose. Touche. 

 

I also understand NE fans frustrations over the alleged HGH Manning scandal. I came to his defense & called the charges ridiculous myself. Why Foxboro got so mad is that Peyton had legions of defenders dismissing the charges while Boston fans were left feeling like Brady was a pariah simply because of what Bill Belichick was fought guilty of in 2007 with SpyGate. I get it; the sins of the HC should not stain permanently & unfairly your HOF QB. Makes perfect sense. 

 

I'm over Deflate Gate. I also believe that if he wasn't disciplined in the season the infraction took place why bother now? I know it's a Commissioner CBA power thing. But, it's a bad look now by Goodell punishing Brady a year later JMO. 

 

Always a pleasure talking to you Yehoodi. 

 

SW1, thanks again for your kind words and thoughts.  And thanks for the response as I always enjoy reading your post.

 

I do not disagree with you regarding Brady's response in January as not coming off as being not as forceful as one might expect.  There were many here in Boston feeling the same way as it would of been nice to have been forceful.  However, at the same time we had this report indicating that the balls were 2 psi below the legal level which on the surface points strongly to human intervention.  Brady like a lot of us were kind of our back heels.  

 

Maybe Brady was innocent but yet could not come to grips with the numbers that were leaked as we all thought they were true.  "Did my guys do something?" he may of been thinking.  Also the word cheater can include things outside of simply breaking a rule and maybe Brady does things that are cheesy (like hiking the ball while a guy is running off the field) that some may feel as a cheater and Brady did not to totally commit on that word and perhaps some of things he does might fall under it.  For me thought, non forcefulness withstanding, he did make a clear statement that he did not violate a rule.   True it could be a lie, but he did say it.

 

Without rehashing the facts, I am not so sure if the Pats did anything.  I would really like to see some PSI numbers at halftime of games to see if there is any deflation of football due to natural deflation and/or due to wear and tear of a half of football.  If say there is a deflation of 0.5 psi then that and temperature concerns would cover the results found by the refs at the AFCCG.

 

The text go both ways for me.  The deflator comment was an isolated comment in May, the off season.  And it could refer to things outside of air pressure and diets.   Yes there were some comments that look damaging but at the same time what confused me was the comment that during one home Jet game the balls were over 16 psi.  So if there was a plan to deflate balls after it left the locker room, how did the employees not deflate the 16 psi balls.  

 

The HGH does not bother me too much one way or the other.  In the end all it is a 4 game suspension, my sense is a lot of folks take HGH, so its a low priority.  As such the NFL does not need to make a federal case out of it.  I was pointing it out to show as an example of other investigations that can be made and how much level of effort the NFL should put into it given its priority level.

 

As for the Deflategate case, I think it is very important.  The case is bigger than the incident.  It boils down to whether the court will uphold the notion that the NFL needs to work within guidelines (precedent, notice, prior suspensions, etc.) when handing our discipline (NFLPA position) or it is free to shoot from the hip in a case by case basis when handing out discipline (NLF preference).   So the ruling is important.  I have sided with the NFLPA position with the prior cases and this one. 

 

Nice to chat with you SW1 

[Yehoodi]

11 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I do appreciate your thoughts as this has been kept civil on both sides of the issue. My reply to the issues you brought up regarding the Jets, Vikings and Falcons is they were not charged with actions detrimental to the league as far as I can remember. The seriousness of that charge does bring stronger penalties, as it should. Your arguments are based in the concept that what other teams did should set the preference on what the Patriots did or didn't do. That concept was negotiated away with the collective bargaining agreement agreed to by the players. They themselves gave Goodell the power to have soul power to determine penalties and fines. Now the Patriots want to call foul when Goodell did come down on them with the concept that it wasn't fair or that is not what was done to other teams. All I can say to that is fairness has zero to do with it. To point a finger at Goodell when Kraft is one of the owners who went right along with the collective agreement and signed off on it. In a sense the players themselves were responsible by not covering issues such as this in the agreement. As far as Goodell is concerned he is only the face of majority ownership. I wont go down that road because that is a whole different issue.

 

Yes Crazycolt1, our conversation has been enjoyable and thanks for your feedbacks and responses. 

 

I have a few things.

 

1) How can the NFL discipline its players.

 

As I mentioned in my last paragraph to SW1, the Brady case is bigger than just Deflategate.  It is about the 5th case in which the players have sought outside help, be it an arbitrator or a court, regarding the authority of the Commissioner to act in his discipline.  So far the NFL has not won a case, well not been able to uphold its discipline it metered out to the players.   As such, this case is important as it is dealing with this issue and is one of the second highest court in the land short of the US Supreme Court.  Its ruling how the CBA is to be viewed in relation to itself/other NFL docs and labor laws will help determine how the NFL can act towards its players.

 

For me I come down on the side of the NFLPA.  For me, when one enters into a contract there is a good faith agreement that the folks will exercise their rights and duties in good faith.  Also, when I look at the CBA as whole I do not read it as having one clause (Art. 46) to supersede other portions of the CBA/NFL docs/policies that have set discipline guidelines, otherwise the latter would be rendered moot if Art 46 allows the Commish to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted.  Something that is not logical for me nor agreed to, imo, by the NFLPA to have been read/interpreted in this matter.   When one agrees to a contract one agrees to it to be read in a whole and that Art 46 needs to be read in relation to everything between the NFLPA and NFL.   My two cents.  

 

For me, labor laws and my view of the CBA, the Commish needs to follow whatever has been done before and/or is set out in the NFL Docs.  If there is a hole and something is not listed then one needs to fine something that is similar to the act to garner some idea what a good discipline would be for the act.  Brady thinks stickem discipline, Goodell thinks PED discipline.

 

It will be interesting to see how the 2nd Circuit comes down. 

 

 

2) Team discipline

 

Yes the Pats have Spygate and whatever aftermath comes from this issue.  I do think though that what the Falcons did, pumping in crowd noise for about three years, is on par with taping signals, both gain an unfair advantage.  I was a little bummed that the Falcons got less of a penalty but they were not doing it as long as the pats too.   But I would consider them both as "priors" for the teams.

 

Quickly on the other teams, I was just bringing out a few points and one of which is the ball altering rule did not seem as serious a crime in Jan 2015 as it appears to be now.   And lastly, would have no problem with a hefty fine to the pats, as the team is on the hook for the ball altering rule regardless if they order it, and even a shot across the bow low draft pick to remind the team to keep its players in order especially after Spygate.   I just think to place the onus on the team for committing the act, when even the Wells report said the coaches and team were not involved, is a bit much for me.  My two cents.   

[southwest1]

2 hours ago, Yehoodi said:

 

SW1, thanks again for your kind words and thoughts.  And thanks for the response as I always enjoy reading your post.

 

I do not disagree with you regarding Brady's response in January as not coming off as being not as forceful as one might expect.  There were many here in Boston feeling the same way as it would of been nice to have been forceful.  However, at the same time we had this report indicating that the balls were 2 psi below the legal level which on the surface points strongly to human intervention.  Brady like a lot of us were kind of our back heels.  

 

Maybe Brady was innocent but yet could not come to grips with the numbers that were leaked as we all thought they were true.  "Did my guys do something?" he may of been thinking.  Also the word cheater can include things outside of simply breaking a rule and maybe Brady does things that are cheesy (like hiking the ball while a guy is running off the field) that some may feel as a cheater and Brady did not to totally commit on that word and perhaps some of things he does might fall under it.  For me thought, non forcefulness withstanding, he did make a clear statement that he did not violate a rule.   True it could be a lie, but he did say it.

 

Without rehashing the facts, I am not so sure if the Pats did anything.  I would really like to see some PSI numbers at halftime of games to see if there is any deflation of football due to natural deflation and/or due to wear and tear of a half of football.  If say there is a deflation of 0.5 psi then that and temperature concerns would cover the results found by the refs at the AFCCG.

 

The text go both ways for me.  The deflator comment was an isolated comment in May, the off season.  And it could refer to things outside of air pressure and diets.   Yes there were some comments that look damaging but at the same time what confused me was the comment that during one home Jet game the balls were over 16 psi.  So if there was a plan to deflate balls after it left the locker room, how did the employees not deflate the 16 psi balls.  

 

The HGH does not bother me too much one way or the other.  In the end all it is a 4 game suspension, my sense is a lot of folks take HGH, so its a low priority.  As such the NFL does not need to make a federal case out of it.  I was pointing it out to show as an example of other investigations that can be made and how much level of effort the NFL should put into it given its priority level.

 

As for the Deflategate case, I think it is very important.  The case is bigger than the incident.  It boils down to whether the court will uphold the notion that the NFL needs to work within guidelines (precedent, notice, prior suspensions, etc.) when handing our discipline (NFLPA position) or it is free to shoot from the hip in a case by case basis when handing out discipline (NLF preference).   So the ruling is important.  I have sided with the NFLPA position with the prior cases and this one. 

 

Nice to chat with you SW1 

I appreciate such an elaborate & well articulated response my friend. I guess one could make the argument that when a scandal mushrooms like deflate gate did & Brady was caught in the middle of it & trying to make sense of it as he is living thru it live. As in, what the hades is going on & what am I being accused of doing exactly? So, your back on our heels comment does carry some weight as an organization since when this story broke, nobody ever asked the question: How many other franchises knew that there was a PSI regulation & if they could name what the minimum requirement was without looking it up or googling it? 

 

I will admit that if the Jets did play a game with 16 PSI in their footballs; it does make you wonder what the penalty would be for over inflation. If nothing did happen to the Jets for over inflation, it does add fuel to the fire  that the league unfairly punishes NE because they keep winning year after year & fines or draft picks are the only way to slow them down & make their lives more difficult. 

 

I will never believe that 'the deflator' signifies that a person wants or needs to go on a diet though. However, by dismissing both equipment managers permanently from your organization, you essentially eliminate any negative stigma they created for your franchise. Sure, others may believe the deflator texts add to a conspiracy of habitual cheating. I don't though because Robert Kraft fired both men, which is what most reasonable bosses would do in the same situation. 

 

You do make a valid point that NFL discipline for infractions must be spelled out exactly in the CBA in writing because why certify the agreement at all if on a whim a Commissioner can change his mind & impose a harsher penalty outside CBA parameters? The idea behind the CBA is to treat all franchises equally penalty wise no exceptions. Also, you can't claim that Deflate Gate is a continuation of alleged foul play by the same franchise because Spy Gate revolved around Bill Belichick not Tom Brady making your QB really only a 1 time offender as opposed to a continued conspiracy of loosing following the rules as many NE detractors love to claim. 

 

Funny, you bring up HGH. I always view it as an accelerated healing tool as opposed to an unfair competitive advantage. I basically view HGH as a way for an athlete to earn more game checks by being available longer. Yeah, to me, I agree with you. HGH isn't that big of a deal to me. 

 

In the end, I like Tom Brady's competitiveness & his thirst to win. I dislike my Colts losing to him all the time but he is a talented SOB on the field so I learn to live with it. LOL! And, even if Brady is forced to sit down a few games this season, I admire how supportive Tommy will be of Jimmy G. & Matt Cassel back in 2008. 

 

Brady will probably win another ring & once he gets fitted for his inevitable yellow jacket, this deflate gate thing won't even be mentioned because HOF careers are all about milestones, winning, & longevity at the end of the day. 

 

If Luck was accused of a PSI violation & the story blew up all over the internet, what would my reaction be? I ask myself that question a lot. I'd be outraged & think the media is making a mountain out of a molehill so yeah, I get NE's frustration. 

[southwest1]

It would interesting to ask Roger Goodell at league meetings & rule change negotiation conferences how he approaches rule violations by teams? Does he immediately consult the CBA & wait for officials to conclude their investigation? How do you respond to the impression that the Falcons fine seemed a bit light in the loafers penalty wise? Is there a penalty fine scale, outside of PED usage, for 1st thru 4 time offenders & how closely is this financial scale for infractions followed regardless of the logo on the side of the helmet? 

 

Equality of discipline is very important to me with no exceptions whatsoever. Yes, I know some form of discretion is always involved. I always wonder though what's tougher to be aware of? Biases toward teams you revere or biases toward teams you have a disdain for? For me, I'm more aware of teams I dislike like Dallas than teams I am loyal to. 

 

[Yehoodi]

1 hour ago, southwest1 said:

I appreciate such an elaborate & well articulated response my friend. I guess one could make the argument that when a scandal mushrooms like deflate gate did & Brady was caught in the middle of it & trying to make sense of it as he is living thru it live. As in, what the hades is going on & what am I being accused of doing exactly? So, your back on our heels comment does carry some weight as an organization since when this story broke, nobody ever asked the question: How many other franchises knew that there was a PSI regulation & if they could name what the minimum requirement was without looking it up or googling it? 

 

I will admit that if the Jets did play a game with 16 PSI in their footballs; it does make you wonder what the penalty would be for over inflation. If nothing did happen to the Jets for over inflation, it does add fuel to the fire  that the league unfairly punishes NE because they keep winning year after year & fines or draft picks are the only way to slow them down & make their lives more difficult. 

 

I will never believe that 'the deflator' signifies that a person wants or needs to go on a diet though. However, by dismissing both equipment managers permanently from your organization, you essentially eliminate any negative stigma they created for your franchise. Sure, others may believe the deflator texts add to a conspiracy of habitual cheating. I don't though because Robert Kraft fired both men, which is what most reasonable bosses would do in the same situation. 

 

You do make a valid point that NFL discipline for infractions must be spelled out exactly in the CBA in writing because why certify the agreement at all if on a whim a Commissioner can change his mind & impose a harsher penalty outside CBA parameters? The idea behind the CBA is to treat all franchises equally penalty wise no exceptions. Also, you can't claim that Deflate Gate is a continuation of alleged foul play by the same franchise because Spy Gate revolved around Bill Belichick not Tom Brady making your QB really only a 1 time offender as opposed to a continued conspiracy of loosing following the rules as many NE detractors love to claim. 

 

Funny, you bring up HGH. I always view it as an accelerated healing tool as opposed to an unfair competitive advantage. I basically view HGH as a way for an athlete to earn more game checks by being available longer. Yeah, to me, I agree with you. HGH isn't that big of a deal to me. 

 

In the end, I like Tom Brady's competitiveness & his thirst to win. I dislike my Colts losing to him all the time but he is a talented SOB on the field so I learn to live with it. LOL! And, even if Brady is forced to sit down a few games this season, I admire how supportive Tommy will be of Jimmy G. & Matt Cassel back in 2008. 

 

Brady will probably win another ring & once he gets fitted for his inevitable yellow jacket, this deflate gate thing won't even be mentioned because HOF careers are all about milestones, winning, & longevity at the end of the day. 

 

If Luck was accused of a PSI violation & the story blew up all over the internet, what would my reaction be? I ask myself that question a lot. I'd be outraged & think the media is making a mountain out of a molehill so yeah, I get NE's frustration. 

 

SW1,

 

a few points . . .

 

In that Jets game at Foxboro it was the Pats balls that were over inflated, not the Jets balls.  What happened was the refs pregame inflated the balls and ended up over inflating the Pats balls to 16 PSI.    This point shows me a few things.  The NFL does not appear overly concerned about PSI if the refs do not recheck the balls after inflation.  And more importantly was my earlier point and that was if there was a scheme to deflate the balls by the pats why did not McNally deflate the balls in the Jets game after getting them from the refs?

 

I have another theory as to what the Deflator might mean and I can PM on this one.

 

And getting back to HGH, I understand that is helps folks heal faster and perhaps keeps them in games if they just have day to day wear and tear.   Where I kind of have an issue with the healing defense is if you have two teams with two WRs injured of the same caliber.  Team A does the standard medicine and their WR comes back after say 10 weeks.  Team B has its WR use HGH and comes back in 5 weeks.   In the end Team B with HGH has the use of its WR for 5 weeks while Team A had to wait the full 10 weeks to get it WR back on the field.   Therefore Team B gets to have its WR for 5 more games than Team A, and there in lies the benefit to Team B, even though the use, for healing purposes, seems innocent. 

 

 

[southwest1]

59 minutes ago, Yehoodi said:

 

SW1,

 

a few points . . .

 

In that Jets game at Foxboro it was the Pats balls that were over inflated, not the Jets balls.  What happened was the refs pregame inflated the balls and ended up over inflating the Pats balls to 16 PSI.    This point shows me a few things.  The NFL does not appear overly concerned about PSI if the refs do not recheck the balls after inflation.  And more importantly was my earlier point and that was if there was a scheme to deflate the balls by the pats why did not McNally deflate the balls in the Jets game after getting them from the refs?

 

I have another theory as to what the Deflator might mean and I can PM on this one.

 

And getting back to HGH, I understand that is helps folks heal faster and perhaps keeps them in games if they just have day to day wear and tear.   Where I kind of have an issue with the healing defense is if you have two teams with two WRs injured of the same caliber.  Team A does the standard medicine and their WR comes back after say 10 weeks.  Team B has its WR use HGH and comes back in 5 weeks.   In the end Team B with HGH has the use of its WR for 5 weeks while Team A had to wait the full 10 weeks to get it WR back on the field.   Therefore Team B gets to have its WR for 5 more games than Team A, and there in lies the benefit to Team B, even though the use, for healing purposes, seems innocent. 

 

 

I do know that Aaron Rogers prefers his footballs on the upper end of the PSI scale & he was never talked to be league officials about it so that does add credence to the argument that Goodell has little to no interest punishing balls, or teams rather, that exceed the PSI limit. Yeah I know, you never mentioned his name. LOL! Sorry about getting your point backwards there Yehoodi. Chalk it up to a mental brain fart on my part. 

 

Your HGH Team B argument has some merit in terms of recovery speed, but games usually come down to 5 or 6 key plays determining a team victory not just 1 miraculous yard after the catch into the end zone usually though. But, I will admit if a WR used HGH to repair knee ligament damage or inflammation & scored 3 TDs in 1 game by himself you'd have a point. 

 

Competitive advantage can get dicey though. I remember a discussion I had with moderator Superman I had over a yr. ago & he brought up whether the league should ban any form of lasik surgery as tipping the scales unfairly on the playing field. He was just playing devils advocate. But say a DB had a procedure to give them 20/20 vision & increase their range of vision. If he already has lighting fast speed & can pick off more QB throws easier now then his team has a better shot at a bye week in the playoffs & 1 less game on route to a SB Championship. Superman proposed an interesting dilemma not PED related but essentially by removing any blind spots in an athlete's eyes that's an unfair advantage. I just found Superman's point intriguing. 

 

I will concede that if the refs didn't seem to care about over inflated balls it's hard to raise a fuss over under inflated ones. There is the theory that given the magnitude of the game being played, the AFC Championship Game & a violation never being called out before in a public setting that the NFL zebras had a lot riding on their plates I guess, but it will be interesting to see if the league issues a reminder to all 32 teams about proper PSI levels or not before the season starts. 

 

Sure, you can PM on what the deflator exchange could have meant. We're friends & I respect your opinion. 

 

I should also take some responsibility for the fact that maybe I was too quick to believe Tom was up to no good based on his response to the cheating accusation that didn't sit well with me. Just cause Tommy acted aloof at that presser doesn't mean he's evil, cunning, & diabolical. I will own my mistake there. 

 

If there is 1 thing in Brady's favor now, it's this: Deflate Gate has gone on too long now & the longer the story remains in the headlines the more it looks like Roger has a vendetta against NE. 

[Yehoodi]

1 hour ago, southwest1 said:

I do know that Aaron Rogers prefers his footballs on the upper end of the PSI scale & he was never talked to be league officials about it so that does add credence to the argument that Goodell has little to no interest punishing balls, or teams rather, that exceed the PSI limit. Yeah I know, you never mentioned his name. LOL! Sorry about getting your point backwards there Yehoodi. Chalk it up to a mental brain fart on my part. 

 

I will concede that if the refs didn't seem to care about over inflated balls it's hard to raise a fuss over under inflated ones. There is the theory that given the magnitude of the game being played, the AFC Championship Game & a violation never being called out before in a public setting that the NFL zebras had a lot riding on their plates I guess, but it will be interesting to see if the league issues a reminder to all 32 teams about proper PSI levels or not before the season starts. 

 

If there is 1 thing in Brady's favor now, it's this: Deflate Gate has gone on too long now & the longer the story remains in the headlines the more it looks like Roger has a vendetta against NE. 

 

A couple of things.

 

Teams have to do two things: one is the hand in balls that meet the specs, and another is not mess with them after inspection.   The later might be more of a heinous act than the former, but both are required.    Not sure if Aaron Rodgers was handing in balls overinflated all the time or not, and/or the pats handing in balls under inflated all of the time. 

 

But part of me thinks that the refs were not always strict with checking the balls pregame and perhaps there may have been a policy of letting the teams hand in the balls how they choose so long as they are close to the range.  And if this was the case and all teams had an opportunity to hand in what they want, then all is even playing field.

 

Another thing regarding the refs, for all the years since 2006 when the QB could mess with the balls, and even before, with all of the handling by the refs the balls during the game, there was never a complaint by a ref to the pats they their balls were soft.  Which to me means that either any change was not noticeable, or the refs did not worry about it.  

 

I will send you the PM on the deflator points.

[southwest1]

32 minutes ago, Yehoodi said:

 

A couple of things.

 

Teams have to do two things: one is the hand in balls that meet the specs, and another is not mess with them after inspection.   The later might be more of a heinous act than the former, but both are required.    Not sure if Aaron Rodgers was handing in balls overinflated all the time or not, and/or the pats handing in balls under inflated all of the time. 

 

But part of me thinks that the refs were not always strict with checking the balls pregame and perhaps there may have been a policy of letting the teams hand in the balls how they choose so long as they are close to the range.  And if this was the case and all teams had an opportunity to hand in what they want, then all is even playing field.

 

Another thing regarding the refs, for all the years since 2006 when the QB could mess with the balls, and even before, with all of the handling by the refs the balls during the game, there was never a complaint by a ref to the pats they their balls were soft.  Which to me means that either any change was not noticeable, or the refs did not worry about it.  

 

I will send you the PM on the deflator points.

Sorry, for me delay in writing you back. My oldest nephew just dropped by my house out of the blue & I had to chat with him so I wasn't ignoring you on purpose. 

 

I agree that league officials need to more clearly clarify how game balls will be evaluated & how questionable PSI balls will be addressed if discovered on site. Meaning: Giving them the opportunity to remove the ball from use or re-inflate it. I don't care about assessing blame right now just establishing protocol that every team understands precise regulations that remove any confusion or ambiguity. 

 

Neither side in deflate gate is changing there position over this incident. I just want a platform where teams can lean on & go okay here's what the PSI rules are, how questionable pig skins are handled, & with this new understanding in hand, what would qualify as a 'repeat offender' organization now? 

 

1 last point: I don't hold grudges against teams. Once they pay their price with fines or draft picks. I consider the matter closed & I don't lord it over their head anymore. I just mean that  this approach is my perspective generally on any team generally. It's just SW1's way at looking at things in general. Every year, all teams get a clean slate in my book. 

 

I'm not calling anyone out personally here. I just hit the reset button a lot. That's my only point here. 

[Yehoodi]

42 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Sorry, for me delay in writing you back. My oldest nephew just dropped by my house out of the blue & I had to chat with him so I wasn't ignoring you on purpose. 

 

I agree that league officials need to more clearly clarify how game balls will be evaluated & how questionable PSI balls will be addressed if discovered on site. Meaning: Giving them the opportunity to remove the ball from use or re-inflate it. I don't care about assessing blame right now just establishing protocol that every team understands precise regulations that remove any confusion or ambiguity. 

 

Neither side in deflate gate is changing there position over this incident. I just want a platform where teams can lean on & go okay here's what the PSI rules are, how questionable pig skins are handled, & with this new understanding in hand, what would qualify as a 'repeat offender' organization now? 

 

1 last point: I don't hold grudges against teams. Once they pay their price with fines or draft picks. I consider the matter closed & I don't lord it over their head anymore. I just mean that  this approach is my perspective generally on any team generally. It's just SW1's way at looking at things in general. Every year, all teams get a clean slate in my book. 

 

I'm not calling anyone out personally here. I just hit the reset button a lot. That's my only point here. 

 

It seems like the NFL new attention to the matter makes things clear on how they are going the handle the balls moving forward.

 

Although I would love to know some of the PSI numbers taken at half time and at the end of games.

[jvan1973]

21 hours ago, Yehoodi said:

 

SW1,

 

a few points . . .

 

In that Jets game at Foxboro it was the Pats balls that were over inflated, not the Jets balls.  What happened was the refs pregame inflated the balls and ended up over inflating the Pats balls to 16 PSI.    This point shows me a few things.  The NFL does not appear overly concerned about PSI if the refs do not recheck the balls after inflation.  And more importantly was my earlier point and that was if there was a scheme to deflate the balls by the pats why did not McNally deflate the balls in the Jets game after getting them from the refs?

 

 

 

 

Allegedly

[Yehoodi]

31 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Allegedly

 

Allegedly what?

[jvan1973]

2 hours ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Allegedly what?

The balls were over inflated in the Jets game

[lollygagger8]

[Yehoodi]

19 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

The balls were over inflated in the Jets game

 

Exactly.  Its spelled out in the texts between McNally and Jastremki. 

[jvan1973]

41 minutes ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Exactly.  Its spelled out in the texts between McNally and Jastremki. 

But they were never tested by the league.    Which is why I said allegedly

[Yehoodi]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

But they were never tested by the league.    Which is why I said allegedly

Yes they were tested by the league in that game.  It is in the texts cited in the Wells Report.   Long story short and with clean language, the exchange between Jags and McNally was that the refs overinflated the balls and did not recheck them after inflating them.  Jags tested a few the Monday after the game and told McNally some were almost 16 psig.   

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, Yehoodi said:

Yes they were tested by the league in that game.  It is in the texts cited in the Wells Report.   Long story short and with clean language, the exchange between Jags and McNally was that the refs overinflated the balls and did not recheck them after inflating them.  Jags tested a few the Monday after the game and told McNally some were almost 16 psig.   

Do you understand the word alleged?  They can't confirm if that actually occurred or not

[bluebombers87]

9 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Do you understand the word alleged?  They can't confirm if that actually occurred or not

That's actually a good point.

 

If my job were to deflate the footballs for Brady and they came back way too high for his liking, I'd blame the refs too.

 

Also wasn't this the same guy who threatened to overinflate the day lights out of them because Brady didn't approve of his work? I honestly don't know.

[crazycolt1]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 1:56 PM, Yehoodi said:

 

SW1,

 

a few points . . .

 

In that Jets game at Foxboro it was the Pats balls that were over inflated, not the Jets balls.  What happened was the refs pregame inflated the balls and ended up over inflating the Pats balls to 16 PSI.    This point shows me a few things.  The NFL does not appear overly concerned about PSI if the refs do not recheck the balls after inflation.  And more importantly was my earlier point and that was if there was a scheme to deflate the balls by the pats why did not McNally deflate the balls in the Jets game after getting them from the refs?

 

 

 

 

Because he couldn't find an empty rest room with no toilet?

[Yehoodi]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 4:00 AM, crazycolt1 said:

Because he couldn't find an empty rest room with no toilet?

 

Yah, all of the "occupied" lights were on.

[Yehoodi]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 5:51 PM, jvan1973 said:

Do you understand the word alleged?  They can't confirm if that actually occurred or not

 

I know what the word alleged means, thank you.  Not sure what you mean by it "actually occurred."   We have no "proof" of nearly every thing else stated in the texts but some how most folks are not claiming all those text messages contain "alleged" facts just because there are statements in texts.  Indeed, most of them were used to prove the actions alleged.

 

Bottom line jvan, we folks on both sides of the isle need to view all the evidence in the same light when it comes to the texts, we can't pick and choose or we look foolish. 

 

If someone says he is the deflator or hands over needles or measures ball pressure we must view them in the same light, as I do.  

[Synthetic]

 

I don't blame the Pats at all for this. They deserve to get the draft picks back, as did the Saints over "bountygate". 

 

Goodell has a god complex. This stopped being about deflategate long ago, it's about the power and the ego of Goodell ever since he was beat in court by Brady. 

 

[jvan1973]

2 hours ago, Bogie said:

 

I don't blame the Pats at all for this. They deserve to get the draft picks back, as did the Saints over "bountygate". 

 

Goodell has a god complex. This stopped being about deflategate long ago, it's about the power and the ego of Goodell ever since he was beat in court by Brady. 

 

No,   it's about holding people and teams accountable when they break the rules.  Goodell simply puts down the punishment the other owners deem sufficient 

[OffensivelyPC]

Wonder if he closed with:

 

"Hugs and Kisses XOXO,

 

BFF"

 

 

 

[Superman]

5 hours ago, Bogie said:

They deserve to get the draft picks back, as did the Saints over "bountygate". 

 

 

[crazycolt1]

12 hours ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Yah, all of the "occupied" lights were on.

It said "occupotty"?