Colts Free Agency Grievances Thread [Mega-merge]

[Superman]

2 hours ago, Indeee said:

If this whole thing has to do with Lucks Contract then what are we waiting for? Sign him to whatever it is already

 

What "whole thing" are you referring to? The approach to the offseason is standard for a team that has to closely manage its cap.

 

2 hours ago, Indeee said:

Why sign Tolzien? What was wrong with Freeman? Was it that Tolzien was the cheapest available?

 

Freeman would have cost less than Tolzien does, so that's not it either. They obviously think Tolzien is better.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, COLTS449 said:

Junior Galette, Patrick Robinson, and Stefen Wisniewski.

 

Galette is a head case. Robinson and Wisniewski are average. 

 

The Colts are being frugal for a reason. They're trying to prioritize the long term prospects of the team, and put themselves in better position to build through the draft. I'd love for them to sign a couple starters at positions of need, but a) I understand why they're laying low (and it's not rocket science, everyone else should understand it, too), and b) there will be decent options in secondary free agency, especially after June 1 when additions don't affect the comp pick system.

[Nesjan3]

2 hours ago, BProland85 said:

It also seems a little odd to me that Indy all of a sudden has zero cap space to bring anyone, anyone at all, into the fold.

 

If Grigson would have simply cut D'Qwell and resigned Freeman for his 4-5 mil per year, that right there would save some cap space. And from what I understood, they had a little over 30 mil in cap space after cutting Andre, Bjoern, and getting pay cuts from Cole and Jones. As long as they don't give Luck an insane contract, and rather offer him a very fair deal (22-23 mil per year), they should have had enough space to bring in a few starters for low cost deals (Wisnewski, Laurenaitus, resigning Freeman as a few examples).

i wasnt aware Jones restructured do you have a link?

[Nesjan3]

2 hours ago, BProland85 said:

It also seems a little odd to me that Indy all of a sudden has zero cap space to bring anyone, anyone at all, into the fold.

 

If Grigson would have simply cut D'Qwell and resigned Freeman for his 4-5 mil per year, that right there would save some cap space. And from what I understood, they had a little over 30 mil in cap space after cutting Andre, Bjoern, and getting pay cuts from Cole and Jones. As long as they don't give Luck an insane contract, and rather offer him a very fair deal (22-23 mil per year), they should have had enough space to bring in a few starters for low cost deals (Wisnewski, Laurenaitus, resigning Freeman as a few examples).

im pretty sure Lucks 5th year option at 16 or 17 mil is already counted toward our cap, so if we sign him to 25 mil it wont make the biggest difference, someone like superman or one of the other cap gurus could clarify this

[Superman]

33 minutes ago, Nesjan3 said:

im pretty sure Lucks 5th year option at 16 or 17 mil is already counted toward our cap, so if we sign him to 25 mil it wont make the biggest difference, someone like superman or one of the other cap gurus could clarify this

 

He's on the books at $16m right now. The obvious unknown is the structure of Luck's new contract, but that won't be done until later in the offseason.

 

As of right now, the Colts are around $17m under the cap, adjusted for draft picks and met incentives. Even if Luck's cap hit in 2016 is $25m (and I doubt that it will be), the Colts would still have cap space to add a player or two on a reasonable contract, and I still think they will. Just not until the market settles, maybe not until after June 1, unless an attractive player gets released between now and then.

 

I really think the approach right now is about stockpiling draft picks and having a TON of cap space next offseason. The Colts presently have $88m committed for 2017. Add in draft picks and other new contracts, plus Luck's new deal, and they'll probably have about $125m committed by September. The cap could be $170m, and if the Colts roll forward $10m, they'll be able to spend $180m. They'll have around ten draft picks, and $50m in cap space. If Jones, Jackson and Gore get cut, that's another $13m.

 

Free agents will be Thornton, Holmes, Adams, Walden, Mathis, Butler, Cole, Moore, Doyle, Brown and Guy. No one to break the bank on, unless one of those young guys has a really good season. The Colts could be major players in free agency a year from now. I think that's important to the staff, and it's a significant influence on how this offseason is going.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Bluefire4 said:

We could get a 4th, 6th, and 7th next year that will all be tradable. I think Luck gets a 24-26 million per year deal with a huge number this year.. probably around 28-29 million cap hit the first year. 

 

Right now, Andrew Luck is set to be paid roughly $16 Mill in 2016.

 

One of the reasons to do a new deal with him now is to LOWER his cap hit this year.      It might not get lowered much,   but odds are high that it will be lowered.       Now, what it is in year 2 is unknown.     But typically in these type of deals they're structured to be re-done,  restructured multiple times during the life of the contract.

 

The benefit to the team is the lowering of the cap hit and gives the team more financial room to sign players.   The benefit to the player is more upfront guaranteed money.     So, it's win-win for the player and the franchise.

 

I would not expect a 28-29 Mill cap hit in year 1 or 2.     But if it does happen,  it will get re-done so the team never has to deal with that.......

 

[Surge89]

14 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Right now, Andrew Luck is set to be paid roughly $16 Mill in 2016.

 

One of the reasons to do a new deal with him now is to LOWER his cap hit this year.      It might not get lowered much,   but odds are high that it will be lowered.       Now, what it is in year 2 is unknown.     But typically in these type of deals they're structured to be re-done,  restructured multiple times during the life of the contract.

 

The benefit to the team is the lowering of the cap hit and gives the team more financial room to sign players.   The benefit to the player is more upfront guaranteed money.     So, it's win-win for the player and the franchise.

 

I would not expect a 28-29 Mill cap hit in year 1 or 2.     But if it does happen,  it will get re-done so the team never has to deal with that.......

 

 

I think there's one minor thing you are overlooking.  Our owner is Irsay.  And he really likes to throw money at his QBs.  I'm not saying he's gonna get paid 28 or 29 million a year but let's not forget this is the owner who has multiple times came out and said he wants to make his QB the highest paid ever...

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, BProland85 said:

It also seems a little odd to me that Indy all of a sudden has zero cap space to bring anyone, anyone at all, into the fold.

 

If Grigson would have simply cut D'Qwell and resigned Freeman for his 4-5 mil per year, that right there would save some cap space. And from what I understood, they had a little over 30 mil in cap space after cutting Andre, Bjoern, and getting pay cuts from Cole and Jones. As long as they don't give Luck an insane contract, and rather offer him a very fair deal (22-23 mil per year), they should have had enough space to bring in a few starters for low cost deals (Wisnewski, Laurenaitus, resigning Freeman as a few examples).

 

Sorry....    no post.

 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Nesjan3 said:

i wasnt aware Jones restructured do you have a link?

 

Sure.....    here you go....    from a few days ago....

 

Takes a 2 Mill paycut...    but can make it all back with incentives....

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/indianapolis-colts/post/_/id/16205/colts-dt-art-jones-restructures-contract

[Goatface Killah]

2 hours ago, esmort said:

 

 

You would lose that bet about complexity of jobs.  And I never said anything about them being able to build a SB team right off the bat you just felt like adding that part for some reason. 

 

 

Irrelevant to the discussion you jumped into.

 

 

Two SB's with 1 win during all of Peyton's career with the other HOF pieces we had in place is underachieving. Feel free to be content with low expectations.  Not quite sure how this pertains to the discussion you jumped into, maybe I forgot something though.

 

 

Yes there are fans who could do as well as Grigson.  At this point it seems like you jumped into a debate without even reading what has been said ... I said more than once "I was not saying "I" could do it", only that there are very smart people with equally complex jobs who have high level football experience and IQ that happen to work in other professions that could do it. 

 

 

Again I never said me ... but preach on ... lol 

 

 

Get off your soapbox.  Also you might want to make sure you have actually read and comprehended the conversation next time before you jump in and give some ridiculous sanctimonious lecture. 

 

So let me get this straight. You don't know WHO could do it. You don't have any names. You just know that SOMEBODY out there could do it? Not really a regular guy, but someone out there who also has a very complex job and a background in football at high levels? But again, you don't know who. Just somebody like that. That's a pretty short list. 

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but I try to look at the fact that Jim Irsay has actually been a GM himself, and worked alongside pretty successful GMs in Bill Tobin and Bill Polian, and then I think of the fact that he not only saw something in Ryan Grigson, but he apparently seen enough to sign him to a contract to run his football team twice. 

 

If the Colts ever do fire Ryan Grigson, I guarantee you they either hire somebody with prior GM experience or someone who is currently working in the NFL scouting players for some other team. To suggest some guy who fits your criteria could do as good of a job because he's smart and knows football is pretty silly and a complete fantasy that would never actually happen.

 

 

Im not on a soapbox. I just have respect for other people and feel its disrespectful to minimize them accomplishing things I can only dream of.

 

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

27 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

I think there's one minor thing you are overlooking.  Our owner is Irsay.  And he really likes to throw money at his QBs.  I'm not saying he's gonna get paid 28 or 29 million a year but let's not forget this is the owner who has multiple times came out and said he wants to make his QB the highest paid ever...

 

I'm not overlooking that at all...   but there's a difference in actual payout per year and cap hit per year.   Those numbers are rarely the same.     Lowering the cap hit won't hurt either Luck or Irsay.    It's all about how the deal is structured.

 

So, one important reason to do a deal now with Luck is to lower his cap hit.     It won't impact the money he gets...      he's going to get a huge guaranteed number....     his guaranteed number might be the biggest in NFL history.    

 

But the key is to lower the cap hit.     That's what I'm expecting and I'll be surprised if that doesn't happen.

 

[Goatface Killah]

2 hours ago, BOTT said:

You guys build up these GM's to be more than they are.  Yes, some are very intelligent and great at their jobs.  But a lot of these guys are just....guys.   Ex college jocks who weren't good enough for the pros and went into scouting and worked their way up.

The job entails more than talent evaluation, obviously.....but if you can't evaluate talent you won't have the job for long.  Yes, they know far more about football than fans, but talent evaluation is a tricky thing that doesn't always seem to go hand in hand with pure football knowledge.  I wouldn't let Mike Holmgren pick the roster of my nephew's pee wee team.

 

Well, I am of the belief that your nephews pee wee team would absolutely dominate if you allowed someone who accomplished as much as Mike Holmgren to be involved, and your nephew would be a much better football player because of his involvement. 

 

Again this is about respecting people who have done amazing things that guys like us can only dream of and understanding the difference between doing it on Sundays without the benefits of hindsight that we enjoy as fans.

 

I understand you may not be a Mike Holmgren fan, I'm not either and wouldn't want him running the Colts...... But if he wanted to coach my son I would beg him to do it and be grateful for the opportunity he has given my child to work with someone who has seen it all in the game of football.

 

People make great judges when talking about others mistakes and great lawyers when talking about their own.

[Surge89]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I'm not overlooking that at all...   but there's a difference in actual payout per year and cap hit per year.   Those numbers are rarely the same.     Lowering the cap hit won't hurt either Luck or Irsay.    It's all about how the deal is structured.

 

So, one important reason to do a deal now with Luck is to lower his cap hit.     It won't impact the money he gets...      he's going to get a huge guaranteed number....     his guaranteed number might be the biggest in NFL history.    

 

But the key is to lower the cap hit.     That's what I'm expecting and I'll be surprised if that doesn't happen.

 

 

Ah gotchya :-)

[NewColtsFan]

4 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

Ah gotchya :-)

 

Honestly,  I don't expect everyone to get all this stuff...   it even baffles GM's...    teams actually hire finance specialists whose job it is to deal with the cap and figure out how to structure deals favorable to the team without screwing the player.

 

Not all teams are good at this.     Seriously.    Some teams do a better job of this than others -- and the Colts are especially good at contracts.    It's one of the better things the franchise does....

 

I have a pretty good idea of this stuff...    but only broader, bigger picture.    The micro-level goes over my head... Superman is much better at this than I am....     it's not easy....

 

[Yoshinator]

Learning that we won't lose Compensatory Picks after June 1st, and being as high on the draft as Iam has made me a lot more calm now about the FA situation. If that is indeed the case that we are building up Comp picks and get a 4th, 6th, and 7th round pick next year, I'm all for it. Lets follow the plan. We just need to have a plan which has seemed to be the problem. I guess we should focus on having the best draft possible at this point, whether that means trading up, trading down and getting more picks, or going BPA at 18. Just fill this team with the best possible talent that you have scouted and feel comfortable with. If we are rebuilding this season, lets take a major step forward, get everyone on track, and build chemistry among the team, players and coaches alike.

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, Indeee said:

I basically set back and kept thinking at some point, something positive and clear towards our off season would eventually surface, however this is getting really weird.

 

If this whole thing has to do with Lucks Contract then what are we waiting for? Sign him to whatever it is already

 

Also, why isn't there any scheduled visits from other players lined up, I mean I'm hearing nothing to this point.

 

I'm starting to wonder if there's something else at work here, almost like... "Hey Chuck, if you think you're such a good coach, let's see you coach up a bunch of crappy players".

 

Why sign Tolzien? What was wrong with Freeman? Was it that Tolzien was the cheapest available?

 

I'm seriously confused.. there is no way we will fill all our holes enough to compete for a SB with this draft. Did Irsay tell them they had 4 years to win a SB? I don't get what's going on here...

 

 

 

There's no conspiracy theory here....    nothing sinister.

 

The team has decided it's going to be much tighter going forward with FA $$$.

 

So,  the team has also decided to steal a page from the Patriots and other teams...   that is...   to try to attain compensatory draft picks by losing more talent than they take in.     You earn more picks to replace the players you lost.

 

And there's an actual date -- I believe it's June 1 -- where after that date,  you can sign free agents and it doesn't impact your ability to acquire more compensatory picks.     So,  we're likely to be very, very quiet until June 1.

 

Am I in love with this approach?     Not really....     but I'm willing to give it a year and see how it plays out.

 

A year from now we'll know about the Comp picks we've acquired and we'll have a better feel for how the late-signed free agents did for us.

 

It's a new era in Colts free agency.   Other teams have done this and succeeded....    now we'll see if the Colts can.....

 

 

[Superman]

16 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Am I in love with this approach?     Not really....     but I'm willing to give it a year and see how it plays out.

 

I don't see this approach being held to next year. Not only should the team have more cap space, but this is the year they actually had some free agents that other teams might spend some money on. I don't think that will be the case next year.

 

In any event, whatever the approach winds up being from year to year, they HAVE to draft better. 

[Bluefire4]

8 hours ago, BProland85 said:

 

That would be insane and honestly sort of reckless to throw all that money at him at this point in his career. If he had already won a Superbowl I could see it, but if he wants to win a championship, I wouldn't want to see him get a contract like that. 23 mil per year is very fair, since Russell Wilson who has lead his team to two Superbowls, is getting paid 21 mil per year.

They will pay Luck more than Aaron Rodgers in my opinion.

[Indeee]

7 hours ago, Superman said:

 

What "whole thing" are you referring to? The approach to the offseason is standard for a team that has to closely manage its cap.

 

 

Freeman would have cost less than Tolzien does, so that's not it either. They obviously think Tolzien is better.

It may not be accurate but I was under the assumption that the Luck deal was crippling our money situation this year. IE, can't sign players until luck's contract numbers we're figured out on how much left we would have

[Defjamz26]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't see this approach being held to next year. Not only should the team have more cap space, but this is the year they actually had some free agents that other teams might spend some money on. I don't think that will be the case next year.

 

In any event, whatever the approach winds up being from year to year, they HAVE to draft better. 

I think that is the center of the new approach by the FO. A lot of our offseason moves have showed that there will be more emphasis on the draft.

 

At the combine we had Grigs and Pagano both scouting together at the combine. At Alabama's pro day we had like 4 prominent people there. No big FA moves, and letting certain guys walk. Grigson's stressing of the importance of comp. picks. It all points towards one thing IMO.

 

I think they're taking the Seahawks approach, except they draft better receivers.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I understood the rebuilding of the team philosophy driving heavy Free Agency pickups over the last few years.  But I actually am used to, and like the Buzzkill Bill (Polian) approach we have taken this season.  Build through the draft, and only sporadically use FA / Trades.  Draft well, develop guys, and when they become really good players, you sign your own Free Agents.  Often at a bargain rate compared to the open FA market; especially in these days where cap space loaded teams that are being forced to spend their money make a play at most every fairly good player by offering overpriced elite deals.  I want us to avoid that.  Pay our own 'very good' players "Very Good" money." Pay our elite players "Elite" money.  Keep Sometimes have to let 'good' players walk, but keep drafting and building / replacing. You don't let talent walk out the door.

 

 

[Nesjan3]

10 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sure.....    here you go....    from a few days ago....

 

Takes a 2 Mill paycut...    but can make it all back with incentives....

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/indianapolis-colts/post/_/id/16205/colts-dt-art-jones-restructures-contract

thanks

[BOTT]

16 hours ago, GoatBeard said:

 

Well, I am of the belief that your nephews pee wee team would absolutely dominate if you allowed someone who accomplished as much as Mike Holmgren to be involved, and your nephew would be a much better football player because of his involvement. 

 

Again this is about respecting people who have done amazing things that guys like us can only dream of and understanding the difference between doing it on Sundays without the benefits of hindsight that we enjoy as fans.

 

I understand you may not be a Mike Holmgren fan, I'm not either and wouldn't want him running the Colts...... But if he wanted to coach my son I would beg him to do it and be grateful for the opportunity he has given my child to work with someone who has seen it all in the game of football.

 

People make great judges when talking about others mistakes and great lawyers when talking about their own.

I'm a Mike Holmgren fan....excellent coach.  But despite all his football knowledge, the record shows he couldn't pick talent to save his life.

 

we differ on what's "amazing"....and that's ok.