colts and dwayne allen discussing contract

[csmopar]

2 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

people get what you're saying...you're just ridiculously exaggerating Allen terms of being "made of glass".  I never said he should be given a huge contract.  I never said he wasn't injury prone...but there are definitely degrees of being injury prone. 

 

I agree that an incentive-laden contract would be best for Allen at this point.  What I don't agree with is the comparison of Allen to Bob Sanders.  You have a point to make and it's a good one, but your hyperbole is distracting people from it making YOU think that they don't agree with your underlying point.

i dont see it as an exaggeration.  With his age, hes young, but as injury prone as he has been, odds are, he gets hurt more and more often.

 

That said, I do agree with you on the incentive contract, that would be the only way I'd hope theyd offer him one.

[Jason_]

Just now, csmopar said:

i dont see it as an exaggeration.

 

And I don't see how you could possibly not.  but whatever...we agree on the most important part which is that his contract should be handled carefully.

 

[Bluefire4]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

Or what? 

More years of mediocrity. 

[csmopar]

54 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

And I don't see how you could possibly not.  but whatever...we agree on the most important part which is that his contract should be handled carefully.

 

because the facts dont lie.  He's missed 33% of possible games, not counting play off games. How is that exaggerating his injury proneness?  If thats not injury prone and sign hes fragile, then what is?

 

Now, I'll give you the bob sanders comment being exaggeratory, but not the made of glass comments.

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

because the facts dont lie.  He's missed 33% of possible games, not counting play off games. How is that exaggerating his injury proneness?  If thats not injury prone and sign hes fragile, then what is?

 

Now, I'll give you the bob sanders comment being exaggeratory, but not the made of glass comments.

Football is a brutal sport.  Injuries happen.  Other than his IR season he hasn't missed a ridiculous amount of snaps.

[Dustin]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

because the facts dont lie.  He's missed 33% of possible games, not counting play off games. How is that exaggerating his injury proneness?  If thats not injury prone and sign hes fragile, then what is?

 

Now, I'll give you the bob sanders comment being exaggeratory, but not the made of glass comments.

 

He missed all of one season because of a pre-existing hip issuethat was aggrevated. It is the definition of a freak injury. 

 

He's missed 6 games the past 2 years (3 a peice) which isn't what you want, but it's not exactly crazy. 

 

He's missed 33% of his games, but it's not like he's missing 33% of his games every year.

 

[COLTS449]

We'd be crazy to bring back Allen over Fleener. I want us to bring both back if we don't overpay, but between the 2 you gotta take Fleener all day. You can find a good blocking TE pretty easily to back him up

[Bluefire4]

18 minutes ago, COLTS449 said:

We'd be crazy to bring back Allen over Fleener. I want us to bring both back if we don't overpay, but between the 2 you gotta take Fleener all day. You can find a good blocking TE pretty easily to back him up

But Allen is not just a blocking tight end. He can catch the football too and has proven to be a quality red zone threat. People are overrating Fleener who is soft and inexistent in many games even though he always has a big pass catching role unlike Allen. Allen has a chance to be a top 10 tight end because he can do it all. I don't want to pay 8 million for a guy who will never develop into a Tyler Eifert or Rob Gronkowski type.. I don't even think he'll be better than Zach Ertz.

[BOTT]

16 hours ago, CantBeStopped said:

I dont believe that fleener was drafted to be a blocker. He is good at what he was drafted to be

He wasn't , but he's not exactly Dallas Clark as a receiving TE....and that's the problem.

[BOTT]

8 hours ago, IVORYsDAD said:

Just like Fleener fans say about his well documented below average blocking skills are a myth Dwayne Allen being injury prone is a myth.

 

We need what Dwayne brings to the table more than what Fleener does BOTTOM LINE you Fleener/Stanford fans need to realize that.

Both are kinda true.  I would rather keep DA, but even Dwayne has talked about his need to stay healthy.

[csmopar]

1 hour ago, Bluefire4 said:

But Allen is not just a blocking tight end. He can catch the football too and has proven to be a quality red zone threat. People are overrating Fleener who is soft and inexistent in many games even though he always has a big pass catching role unlike Allen. Allen has a chance to be a top 10 tight end because he can do it all. I don't want to pay 8 million for a guy who will never develop into a Tyler Eifert or Rob Gronkowski type.. I don't even think he'll be better than Zach Ertz.

Allen dropped more passes this yr than fleener...

[Bluefire4]

29 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Allen dropped more passes this yr than fleener...

I said nothing about drops. I said toughness. I'm not giving Fleener 8 million a year. I just couldn't do it. Remember what this thread is about. Grigson said in his combine interview that it would be hard to sign both tight ends but we could get a comp pick for one of them and this thread says Allen is in contract discussions.. doesn't say anything about Fleener.

[BOTT]

29 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

I said nothing about drops. I said toughness. I'm not giving Fleener 8 million a year. I just couldn't do it. Remember what this thread is about. Grigson said in his combine interview that it would be hard to sign both tight ends but we could get a comp pick for one of them and this thread says Allen is in contract discussions.. doesn't say anything about Fleener.

You think Fleener is soft?

[csmopar]

54 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

I said nothing about drops. I said toughness. I'm not giving Fleener 8 million a year. I just couldn't do it. Remember what this thread is about. Grigson said in his combine interview that it would be hard to sign both tight ends but we could get a comp pick for one of them and this thread says Allen is in contract discussions.. doesn't say anything about Fleener.

Toughness. ...

 

Let's see, 1 has started and played in every game since 2012...the other has missed 33 percent of those same games...........

[Nesjan3]

i think overall DA is the better TE but seriously the difference in talent between the two players is not enough to mask the fact that Fleener has played in every game since 2012^ as stated above, where Allen cant stay health, so if i had to choose its Fleener all day

[Knuckles79]

I prefer Fleener over Allen. I hope they can get the both of them signed. I believe we haven't seen the best and either players yet. If we let either walk I believe we as fans will be disappointed to see them produce on another team.

[Bluefire4]

4 hours ago, csmopar said:

Toughness. ...

 

Let's see, 1 has started and played in every game since 2012...the other has missed 33 percent of those same games...........

Not toughness in terms of injuries.. anybody can get injured at any time. Luck missed a lot of games this year and no one questions his toughness. Fleener will not fight for extra yards and does not have have a big impact on the game like the top tight ends.

 

Here's what I'm talking about: Forty-seven tight ends caught a greater percentage of the passes sent their way than Fleener's 66.7 percent last season, 52 bettered his yards per catch (9.1), 60 gained more yards per reception after the catch (3.2 yards) and 27 broke more tackles (two).

[Bluefire4]

4 hours ago, BOTT said:

You think Fleener is soft?

Yes. He never fights for extra yardage and you can't depend on him game in and game out like other tight ends.

[iLoveMyBoys]

Bottom line is this Dwayne may lose a few bucks for missing a few games just like Fleener should lose a few bucks for being a one trick pony.

 

We need what Dwayne brings to the table more im sure every player has been injured a few times in their career and bounce back to have stellar careers.

 

One thing Fleener fans dont realize and i wouldnt want to replace him but is he is very inconsistent he has a big game one week and invisible the next few weeks again i like Fleener tho.

 

 

 

[ricker182]

11 hours ago, Bluefire4 said:

Yes. He never fights for extra yardage and you can't depend on him game in and game out like other tight ends.

I have to agree.  

He's a 5ft 120lbs guy playing in a 6'6" 250lbs body.  

  

He plays like a small guy and doesn't use his size.  

  

That being said, he is a way better receiving tight end than Allen, but Allen is a way better blocker. This hasn't changed in the past 4 seasons either.

[BOTT]

11 hours ago, Bluefire4 said:

Yes. He never fights for extra yardage and you can't depend on him game in and game out like other tight ends.

I don't think that anything to do with toughness.  imo he doesn't get much YAC because he isn't quick at all...he gets no momentum to take on a tackler.

 

Fleener was never going to be Mark Bavaro, but I think the above just exacerbates it.

[Dark Superman]

I think both Fleener and Allen will be back with us next year. I think the Colts value both and see them both as the future of this organization.

 

Build an offensive line and get another stud RB and this offense can be deadly.

[SteelDragon]

On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 6:05 PM, BOTT said:

He wasn't , but he's not exactly Dallas Clark as a receiving TE....and that's the problem.

 

Well, he's putting up better numbers through 4 years:

 

Fleener: 183- 2154, 17 TDs

Clark: 121-1618, 14 TDs

(Fleener ' s numbers suffered a bit with Luck out last year too)

 

I hope we keep both TEs without over-paying them.  

[BOTT]

2 minutes ago, SteelDragon said:

 

Well, he's putting up better numbers through 4 years:

 

Fleener: 183- 2154, 17 TDs

Clark: 121-1618, 14 TDs

(Fleener ' s numbers suffered a bit with Luck out last year too)

 

I hope we keep both TEs without over-paying them.  

That's what I call the "Blair White argument".  

[SP_21]

Honestly Allen should go somewhere where he will have a larger role in the offense. He should be used like Jason Witten. Roughly 50/50 blocking and running routes. 

 

Allen has the potential to be one of the best all around TEs in the league. Whether he stays or goes somewhere else I know he'll surprise a lot of people on this forum. 

[BOTT]

50 minutes ago, SP_21 said:

Honestly Allen should go somewhere where he will have a larger role in the offense. He should be used like Jason Witten. Roughly 50/50 blocking and running routes. 

 

Allen has the potential to be one of the best all around TEs in the league. Whether he stays or goes somewhere else I know he'll surprise a lot of people on this forum. 

With an actual OC at the helm I assume DA will have a larger role.  If I was a TE and Chud was the OC I would be pretty excited.

[JH8788]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 4:50 PM, Bluefire4 said:

But Allen is not just a blocking tight end. He can catch the football too and has proven to be a quality red zone threat. People are overrating Fleener who is soft and inexistent in many games even though he always has a big pass catching role unlike Allen. Allen has a chance to be a top 10 tight end because he can do it all. I don't want to pay 8 million for a guy who will never develop into a Tyler Eifert or Rob Gronkowski type.. I don't even think he'll be better than Zach Ertz.

Gronk is in a league of his own despite ending up on IR twice & Eifert actually gets utilized properly unlike Coby & Dwayne even though he too has dealt with his injuries but you can't name very many iron men at the TE position. Jason Witten, Tony Gonzalez, Heath Miller are freaks of nature to be that durable for so long & be productive.

[Jason_]

On 2/27/2016 at 6:43 PM, BOTT said:

That's what I call the "Blair White argument".  

 

Luck is not even close to being as good as Manning was at making other players around him better than they are.  That's not a knock on Luck either...4 years into his career, Manning wasn't either.  Manning was in year 12 I think when he limped the Colts into the playoffs with Blair White as a starter.

[Jason_]

On 2/27/2016 at 0:30 AM, Bluefire4 said:

Not toughness in terms of injuries.. anybody can get injured at any time. Luck missed a lot of games this year and no one questions his toughness. Fleener will not fight for extra yards and does not have have a big impact on the game like the top tight ends.

 

Here's what I'm talking about: Forty-seven tight ends caught a greater percentage of the passes sent their way than Fleener's 66.7 percent last season, 52 bettered his yards per catch (9.1), 60 gained more yards per reception after the catch (3.2 yards) and 27 broke more tackles (two).

 

The only one of those stats that I'm even remotely concerned about is the lack of broken tackles.  Where did these numbers come from?  In terms of the 2/3 of passes thrown his way being caught, I'd be curious to know if they only include catchable passes or if that's all passes thrown his way.  Many of the misses have been because Luck tends to severely overthrow him.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 2/27/2016 at 10:30 PM, Bluefire4 said:

Forty-seven tight ends caught a greater percentage of the passes sent their way than Fleener's 66.7 percent last season, 52 bettered his yards per catch (9.1), 60 gained more yards per reception after the catch (3.2 yards) and 27 broke more tackles (two).

LOL, there definitely are not 47 TEs in the league that are better than Fleener. What's the minimum amount of snaps for these stats? They could be very skewed if some of these guys only had 10 or 15 balls thrown their way over the course of the entire season.

[ColtsLegacy]

2 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

LOL, there definitely are not 47 TEs in the league that are better than Fleener. What's the minimum amount of snaps for these stats? They could be very skewed if some of these guys only had 10 or 15 balls thrown their way over the course of the entire season.

 

It doesn't say there are 47 TEs better than Fleener.

[ColtsLegacy]

On 2/27/2016 at 6:40 PM, SteelDragon said:

 

Well, he's putting up better numbers through 4 years:

 

Fleener: 183- 2154, 17 TDs

Clark: 121-1618, 14 TDs

(Fleener ' s numbers suffered a bit with Luck out last year too)

 

I hope we keep both TEs without over-paying them.  

 

This is why people say stats lie.

 

Comparing these two is an insult to Clark.

[ColtsLegacy]

On 2/27/2016 at 7:24 PM, csmopar said:

Allen dropped more passes this yr than fleener...

 

Making % up doesn't help your "argument".

 

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2015/

 

2015

Dwayne Allen - 0 drops

Coby Fleener - 3 drops

 

Nice try.

[csmopar]

30 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Making % up doesn't help your "argument".

 

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2015/

 

2015

Dwayne Allen - 0 drops

Coby Fleener - 3 drops

 

Nice try.

I'm not sure what they consider drops then. Because I've got it on my dvr from this season where he dropped a wide open 7 to 8 yard pass.  Unless someone else wore 83 this year.....

[ColtsLegacy]

16 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I'm not sure what they consider drops then. Because I've got it on my dvr from this season where he dropped a wide open 7 to 8 yard pass.  Unless someone else wore 83 this year.....

 

No, you don't and even if you did, that would only make 1 drop. But, I'm pretty sure a wide open drop would be considered a drop.

[RockThatBlue]

On 2/25/2016 at 4:07 PM, CR91 said:

The people here bashing fleener are ridiculous

Agreed. 

 

He runs good routes. He's fast. He's improved as a blocker. He actually stays on the field unlike Allen. His main problem is he's not that good at breaking tackles. I see nothing to hate him for. He may never be an elite TE but he's a good TE. 

[crestmount]

I think the Colts will keep both--cost dependant.  It's OK saying, "Let's get rid of this guy, or that guy,", but you have to be able to get a better player in to replace them.  Fleener and Allen may not be the best TE's in the NFL, but I don't think you will find anyone better via FA or in the draft--we have more pressing needs than to draft a TE in the first 3-4 rounds, and by then, the cream will have been long gone

[RockThatBlue]

On 2/26/2016 at 1:38 AM, southwest1 said:

I don't know CBS. It seems to me that a TE's ability to block & catch should be a mandatory skillset in the NFL. 

 

To me, it's not a 1 or the other proposition. Why can't Fleener learn to block? Fleener is just like Jimmy Graham. Solid hands for catching balls through the air, but he just refuses to learn how to block well on running plays. I wish HOF TE Shannon Sharpe could give Fleener a crash course & teach him a thing or 2. 

 

I know Allen gets nicked up a lot, but it really bothers when Coby just treats blocking like an after thought. We will never ring another ring with that kind of block when I feel like it attitude IMO. 

Fleener is a much better blocker than Jimmy Graham. 

 

For those that think Fleener is a terrible blocker, go back and re watch the thursday game this past year against Houston. A big reason we shut JJ watt down was because of Fleener. Just saying... 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 hour ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

It doesn't say there are 47 TEs better than Fleener.

What's the point of that stat then if it's not an attempt to imply that Fleener is a bottom-tier TE?

[JPFolks]

On 2/25/2016 at 6:37 AM, MPStack said:

I much prefer resigning Allen over Fleener. I think he fits more into what the Colts want to do with the run game. I think there is a good chance both are resigned though. The Luck, Fleener history helps IMO. 

Glad to read that others support keeping Allen as well.  I was gang tackled in another post by Allen haters/Fleener worshippers.