Colts Festivus: The Airing of Grievances

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, SteelDragon said:

I'm just stating the obvious here: Grigson doesn't know what he's doing. You guys have already hit on a number of complaints. If you come in here under the mantra of "run the ball/stop the run," and 4 years into the build process you haven't improved at all, what else needs to be said? There's nothing left to evaluate with this staff.

The whiffs on first round draft picks and the misspent money on free agents have taken its toll. This team is long in tooth at some critical positions and just plain bad at others.  It's not only time for a new regime,  this team is going to need a considerable overhaul.

 

I think any time a poster -- any poster -- is writing a sentence that has the phrase "Grigson really doesn't know what he's doing" -- that poster really needs to get a grip.

 

For a guy who didn't know what he's doing we've won an enormous amount of football games on his watch.

 

There are a lot of franchises who would kill for what we've done the last 3+ years.     Did GM's Jerry Reese and Tom Coughlin get stupid over night?     They've won 2 Super Bowl's and they're struggling to get to 500 this year.

 

Grigson may not be great,  but he's been enough to do some pretty impressive things his first 3 years.   Tons of problems this year, and it may costs him his job.      But "Doesn't know what he's doing..."     No.    Just no.

Sorry.

 

[RockThatBlue]

My grievances:

 

Everything.

 

/thread.

[RockThatBlue]

5 hours ago, krunk said:

 

Sio had a whopping 8 snaps according to Stampedeblue. I know Sio has got to be quietly simmering.

Djoun Smith had 1 snap

 

What is Manuskys deal with this stuff?  Mcnary and Brown both sucked.

 

He's obviously not that high on Smith it seems to allow a guy freshly called up from injury waivers to just come in and start over DJ.  I known Brown was here in the offseason, but come on you drafted this kid in the 3rd round and he's got talent. Let the kid get his feet wet.

I didn't understand why we cut Josh Thomas to bring Jalil brown back either.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

One more thing:

 

1) Penatlies -- in 2012 we were the 10th least penalized team in the NFL, in 2013 we were the 3rd least penalized team in the NFL, in 2014 we were the 3rd most penalized team in the NFL and right now we are the 15th most penalized team in the NFL.

 

Penalties can be a killer, and they have surely played part in multiple loses this season.  I don't know if this is on the coaching staff and don't know how in the first 2 years we are in the top half of least penalized teams and the past 2 years we have switched to be in the top half of most penalized teams.

 

You would think that being the 3rd least penalized team in the league in Pagano's first full year at HC (2013) would be a reflection of the coaching staff, and therefore think that being the 3rd most penalized team the following year is also a reflection of the coaching staff.  Some of these things might be due to rule changes, etc..

 

Some of the reason for this may also be on the lack of addressing the offensive line.  We have 88 total penalties -- 42 on offense, 32 on defense and 14 on special teams.  Of the 42 offensive penalties (accepted penalties), 17 have been holding, 13 have been false starts, 5 have been delay of games, 2 have been ineligible lineman down the field, 1 was a chop block, 1 was a horsecollar tackle (Denzelle Good) and 1 was intentional grounding (we are tied for 6th most holding and 6th most false starts in the league).  Anyway, 42 out of 88 means 47% of our penalties come on offense.  Of these 42 penalties, 28 are on our OL (that is 32% of the team's total penalties, or 67% of our offensive penalties).  Then we have 4 offensive holding penalties by our TEs, a chopblock by Gore, and  5 delay of games (which get credited to the QB) -- so 38 penalties on offense may be contributed to the OL (90% of our offensive penalties).

 

So, while I think coaching needs to take some of the blame for our penalty issues -- I would like to point out that inadequate talent at OL might be to blame for a big increase in penalties.  In case anyone is wondering, after the 28 OL penalties, the only other groups with more than 10 penalties are the DBs with 23 (though at least 7 of these have come on STs) and the LBs with 18 (with at least 2 coming on STs). 

 

I think that a lot of people were in agreement prior to the season that our areas of greatest concern were OL, LB, DL, and DB -- we did basically nothing to address the OL and not only does it show by the eye test, but it shows by the amount of penalties they are committing, we got Lowery and Geathers but did nothing (except draft Smith who hasn't amounted to much) to address lack of depth at CB. 

 

My point here is, there is only so much a coaching staff can do -- there is no argument, we are outmatched on the OL in many games -- you can't coach talent, and in some cases this is inherently going to lead to committed penalties.  We also have done pretty much nothing to address our pass rush (except hope Mathis would return to form, which he hasn't yet, and sign an aging Cole) or our lack of depth at CB -- this may be a major reason why we are seeing so many penalties by our secondary and LBs (multiple defensive holding or pass interfence calls).

[RockThatBlue]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

Oh, add to the list that we can't run screen passes. I'm really baffled by that.

Its a struggle anytime Matt and Andrew try to throw screen passes to Gore. Its sad. 

[Flash]

There are many grievances to air but I will go with the one that has me alarmed the most -- which has much to do with the future of this team.

 

You can make an argument that the only positions of strength on the team are 1) Receivers, 2) TEs and 3) D-line. Going forward, if these units remain intact, we are good there for the foreseeable future. QB obviously, as long as Luck remains healthy.

 

My grievance is that we do not have a healthy outlook at DB, MLB, OLB, OL, or RB. 

DB - The only play maker at DB is V. Davis. Butler is average and everyone else is below average. D. Smith is an unknown commodity.

S -(Adams - age, not a part of the future). Geathers is a player that must step up. Lowery is average.

 

MLB - DQ is old and we shouldn't expect him to produce at the same level moving forward. Freeman is average. I am not as high on Irving or Sio Moore as others may be. We shall see what happens with them, but I have my concerns still that these positions will need to be addressed in the near future, which means more draft picks and FA acquisitions to shore up a position that we have tried to address numerous times.

 

OLB - The cupboard is bare.I mean bare. Mathis is old and only getting older. Cole was a band-aid and will not be around. Werner, no need to discuss him any further. Newsome has been a disappointment this year.

 

O-Line - The O-line is an issue with many teams, not just the Colts. There is a lack of quality lineman coming into the league and when they do come in, it takes time to develop. However, a case can be made that Grigson could have placed a much higher priority to the O-line than he has. The O-line issue has been discussed ad nauseum.

 

RB - Frank Gore is a band aid. He is old and we can see him start to wear down already. He will not be a part of the future. Boom is average. Bradshaw - IR'd again. I am not high on Varga -- he is a hard runner but he is not the answer at RB. Robinson flashed some talent. Overall, we will have some holes to fill here.

 

As yo can see, after 4 years with Grigs, what has he built? An offensive unit with great skill players (QB, RE, TE) who are negated by average to terrible O-line play, and still no run game.

 

After 4 years, we have mostly the same problems on defense: bad secondary, no pass rush, an overall marshmallow soft defense. We have limited draft picks and limited money to spend and almost an entire team's worth of positions to fill. I know we have Andrew Luck, which means that we will find a way to win games, but how does this not look like a coming rebuild?

 

[RockThatBlue]

The Jags game was a disturbing wake up call. They looked faster and younger. We looked old and slow. The Jags have themselves a nice young core there, but they just bent us over. 

[rockywoj]

- a poor offensive scheme / design

 

- a perpetually deficient defense

 

- Coby Fleener - I think he plays slow and plodding and couldn't make a first defender miss if his life depended on it (or we have an offensive scheme that simply sucks at using whatever talent he supposedly has).  

 

- Dwayne Allen - that we don't use him properly to take advantage of his talent, which I perceive as being much higher than Fleener's. 

 

- the OL generally always being the weakest link

 

- stupid penalties (like blocking in the back on punt returns)

 

- horrible punt coverage

 

- people that don't realize how good Frank Gore actually (still) is

 

- That we opted not to bring back Reggie Wayne for one last year (assuming he was going to be back to 100% healthy by the time the season started), thus instead signing Andre Johnson, whom is a big downgrade as compared to a healthy Reggie Wayne. 

 

- that Luck rarely throws with the accuracy of Peyton Manning (though, especially this year, that might be blamed on the poor OL / bad offensive design).

 

- using Griff Whalen as a primary punt returner

 

- not using Griff Whalen more as a 3rd down outlet receiver

 

- that Bjorn Werner has turned out to be such a bust

 

- that every year the Colts suffer too many key injuries

 

- that Bert Jones does not receive the universal acclaim that he deserved, because of a premature end due to injury.  He was one of the best QBs off all-time, while he played. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

I can see the logic to it, but in that article Grigson says he went from not wanting anyone under 28 to thinking it'd be good to sign only players over 33 (I'm sure he exaggerated on that some), but to totally change your philosophy during your 4th year into a job because the Mike Adams signing worked out is a little worrisome to me. 

 

I get why he could be burnt out on some young players (to add to the list of those you menitoned, we've had Da'Rick Rogers, Loucheiz Purifoy, Joe LeFeged, etc.), but that IMO shouldn't be reason to focus going after older players.  Cole, AJ, and Herremans were all pretty clearly on the decline elsewhere before we brought them in here.

 

If you add Cole to your list, I'd say we're closer to 50% -- with Gore and Langford being successes, Lowery being neutral, and Cole, AJ, and Herremans being failures.  Nate Irving also showed some positive, but I'd say he'd be classified as neutral.

 

Given Grigson's overall failing grade in previous free agencies (successes include D'Qwell, Overton, Redding, Adams, Butler, Walden, maybe Donnie Avery, and Jerrell Freeman are the only I can think of, with a fair number of neutrals and failures including Samson Satele, Tom Zbikowski, Brandon McKinney, RJF, Landry, D. Thomas, Sidbury, Cherilus, Aubrayu Franklin, Heyward-Bey, Costa, Nicks, etc.), I could also see why he wanted to change his strategy.  However, it is obvious that this strategy is not going to help sustain this team over Luck's career (I doubt Herremans, AJ, or Cole is in a Colts uniform next year and doubt we'll get more than 1 more year out of Gore). 

 

What is most alarming to me is that it leaked after the player's only meeting in early Nov that Grigson controls who Pagano puts on the field.  I have no idea how the talent evaluation process and scouting go on behind the scenes in Indy, but if Pagano doesn't have the power to manage how the players on his roster are managed, I can't imagine he has a lot of control in terms of the players who get to be put on the roster thru free agency and the draft.  So, while I agree with you that Grigson had some logic behind his moves, I just don't see a good track record for him in free agency and he hasn't really shown to be improving in his 4th season -- I get where he is coming from with 'when you have 12, you have to aim to win now' comments, but I'm really not sure that addressing the offensive line (I think every fan on here was in agreement that the OL was a major area of concern going into this season) by signing a washed-up 33 year old guard, drafting a tackle in the 7th round, and signing a guy from the CFL is really putting this team in position to protect our QB and win football games.

 

I left out Cole. That's puts it at 50%, which is still good, IMO. Irving doesn't qualify; he's 27, not an older vet. Langford isn't even 30, but I'd include him. 

 

I don't think the strategy was to intentionally go after older guys. I think AJ and Gore just happened to work out; I don't think they were always targets. Herremans, Langford and Cole were released, so they didn't count against the compensatory system (not that it matters, we're not getting a pick). Lowery was a June signing. None of them were meant to be building blocks. Individually, I have no problem with the players. Collectively, none of them are going to be here in two years. 

 

I also don't buy into the so-called reports about Grigson dictating lineups. It never added up, and he directly denied it, and it's never come up since. I'm done with those rumors.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

49 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

45 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I left out Cole. That's puts it at 50%, which is still good, IMO. Irving doesn't qualify; he's 27, not an older vet. Langford isn't even 30, but I'd include him. 

 

I don't think the strategy was to intentionally go after older guys. I think AJ and Gore just happened to work out; I don't think they were always targets. Herremans, Langford and Cole were released, so they didn't count against the compensatory system (not that it matters, we're not getting a pick). Lowery was a June signing. None of them were meant to be building blocks. Individually, I have no problem with the players. Collectively, none of them are going to be here in two years. 

 

I also don't buy into the so-called reports about Grigson dictating lineups. It never added up, and he directly denied it, and it's never come up since. I'm done with those rumors.

 

I am not too happy about 50% in free agency, not the way this went.  All 6 of those players being used to determine the % were signed to be starters or very significant contributors (Cole, I believe, was signed to start earlier in the season as Mathis worked his way into the line-up and then to continue to have a significant role as a pass-rusher -- the rest were signed to start and contribute for this team).  I would be happy about 50% if 50% of the players signed weren't expected to come in and make large contributions, but rather be serviceable depth players.

 

I understand that Grigs inherited a very bad team, and a team which did not have the personnel suited to play the system that he, Pagano, Irsay, etc. claim they desire (big and physical, win in the trenches, run the ball, stop the run, etc...).  That said, I know it is not possible to fix every position overnight and this team has had a lot of issues that need fixing at the talent level.  However, I don't understand his logic or philosophy as to how he has gone about trying to get things fixed in many instances.  Since day 1, OL has been a major (I think the primary) concern about this team -- 4 years later OL is still a major (I think the primary) concern about this team.  We knew going into the offseason that Cherilus and D. Thomas were both big concerns due to injury, we knew that Thornton and Holmes were struggling to develop, we saw Harrison struggle mightily as a rookie, we knew that Reitz is an average back up in the NFL, and we knew that Mewhort and Castonzo were the only real areas where we could be comfortable about the OL in 2015 (with little depth behind them).  IMO, it is unacceptable that all Grigs did to address this position (especially given that running the ball and protecting Luck are 2 of Grigs' top priorities) was sign a washed-up Herremans, a player from the CFL and draft a D-II player in the 7th round. 

 

I see the logic in Gore and Johnson signings -- they are older but still were producing at a pretty high level last season (though Johnson did have a drop in production by 24 receptions).  I see the logic in Langford, he was relatively cheap and still fairly young (and we drafted 2 young DL, so Langford could be a stop gap while they develop).  I see the logic in Lowery, especially after we drafted Geathers (i.e., have Lowery come in to fill a hole while a young player develops behind him and then determine when Adams is ready to retire if Lowery is worth keeping around).  I do not see the logic behind Cole or Herremans -- the last time Cole had over 10 sacks was in 2011, and IMO he was obviously on the decline, whereas Herremans was never more than an average OL and also on the decline.  I would get it if those 2 guys were brought in to serve minimal roles and challenge for a roster spot, but it is pretty clear to me that they were signed with the expectation of coming in to likely become starters and significant contributors.  It would also make some sense to me if we addressed those positions by adding some young players to develop behind them, but we didn't and we are now seeing the repercussions of a lack of depth at both positions and, quite frankly, we look slow and nonathletic at both positions. 

 

In this article, (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000480431/printable/ryan-grigson-has-indianapolis-colts-targeting-super-bowl-50) , Grigson says: ""I didn't want anyone over 28. And then last year, I told (safety) Mike Adams, who was playing well for us, 'You know what? We might need to start signing everybody who's over 33.' I kinda got worn down by some of the youth -- some of the knuckleheads who weren't all in, who don't make the commitment. You get tired of it. Those are the guys who are gonna bring the team down. We've had guys we've had to get rid of, because they weren't with the program. " 

 

That leads me to believe he was purposely targeting older players in free agency. I get that logic to some extent, but to sign 2 players (Cole and Herremans) who are obviously on the decline at positions of major need and expect them to all the sudden have a resurgence and be major contributors for us, to me, is asinine, especially without doing anything to get younger players to develop underneath them or provide stable depth.

 

[NBColtsFanatic]

9 hours ago, Track Guy said:

On offense we got one dimensional because our running game was no good. We started throwing a lot more which subjected our QB to many hits. Very little creativity in play calling, not enough play action or bootlegs imo. We also lead the league in WR drops in 2014. Lost our pro bowl, chain-moving possession WR.

 

On defense we lost Rob Mathis for 2014. We never were able to get enough other players who could pass rush effectively. This exposed even more of our weakness in the secondary and middle linebacking group. 

Thanks, it's just crazy to think how every single season is so different.

[coltsfeva]

I struggle to make broad-brush comments about this team, i.e. Talent is not good, Colts are soft, Grigson doesn't know what he is doing, Pagano can't coach, O-line stinks, etc. etc. etc.

Winning or losing changes people's opinions from week-to-week. The thing that is so frustrating, is that we have seen the Colts play well (NE, Carolina, Denver) but they have not played well consistently for 60 minutes.

My biggest gripe is that they have not played up tp their potential as evidenced by the penalties, dropped passes and turnovers.

I just want to see a clean game this week (hopefully MH will play and play well). I want to see this team show us on the field that they are better than their record shows. There was a reason for the pre-season consensus that the Colts could make the SB. 

The season is by no means over but it's time to bring it. The time for talk is over.  

 

 

[krunk]

For the life of me I can't understand why we are not utilizing Sio Moore at least as a blitzer off the edge in key situations.  This guy is an excellent blitzer especially off the edge.  Somebodies going to come and tell me he is an ILB which is true, but this guy can play every one of those linebacker spots.  I've seen a lot of film of this guy rushing off the edges getting to the QB.  I still remember when he knocked Mallett out of the Houston game.  Oh no we still want to keep putting scrubs like Mcnary and Werner out there!

[Defjamz26]

Just now, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think any time a poster -- any poster -- is writing a sentence that has the phrase "Grigson really doesn't know what he's doing" -- that poster really needs to get a grip.

 

For a guy who didn't know what he's doing we've won an enormous amount of football games on his watch.

 

There are a lot of franchises who would kill for what we've done the last 3+ years.     Did GM's Jerry Reese and Tom Coughlin get stupid over night?     They've won 2 Super Bowl's and they're struggling to get to 500 this year.

 

Grigson may not be great,  but he's been enough to do some pretty impressive things his first 3 years.   Tons of problems this year, and it may costs him his job.      But "Doesn't know what he's doing..."     No.    Just no.

Sorry.

 

I get what you're saying, but his successes are greatly overstated. If you look at his resume objectively, it's very average to subpar:

 

Since Luck was an Irsay pick he doesn't get credit for that. Now looking at his entire 4 years here, who have been his best acquisitions be it FA, trade, or draft?

 

Vontae Davis and T.Y. Hilton. And Hilton is a really good player for us, but I wouldn't call him a unique talent where it'll be hard to find another Hilton. Plus WR is a very easy position to upgrade.

 

Now that doesn't mean that everyone else he's acquired has been terrible, but that his best players are a lockdown CB and a good WR. That's not exactly a top tier resume worthy of tons of praise. Sure he managed the cap well and all that stuff, but it's not unusual to manage the cap well in a rebuilding effort. The past few seasons, the Raiders have also been overflowing with cap. Same with the Jags.

 

And look at the O-line in depth. Granted every GM will inherit good players from the previous regime, but two of the best lineman are from the previous regime. Imagine the Colts if we didn't have Castonzo or Reitz. It's scary.

 

My point is that I get that maybe  some people don't give him some credit he deserves, but since 2012 people have greatly overrated Grigson's success as a GM. He's not the worse GM I've seen but he's not really that good, nor has he demonstrated the propensity to be anything more than "serviceable" like most of his players.

[Dustin]

The problem is that Grigson cant really build a football team. Not even on an individual player level, but just as a single entity. The Colts entire teams is constructed of mismatched parts that don't fit together to form a singular identity. There are some good player, but the way the roster is built doesn't make sense on a philosophical level. And a roster that is built this way loses any ability to establish a consistent identity. 

 

If i asked you what the identity of the Colts is, how would you answer? Could you even come up with a response?

[bababooey]

13 hours ago, BOTT said:

Chuck's use of "ya know".  You are 50 Chuck, not 16.

13 hours ago, Superman said:

 

"Ya know" isn't something a 16 year old says. They say "like." And that's infinitely more annoying than "ya know." 

One of the partners at my firm says "ya know" so much I sometimes tick in my notepad every time it's said in a meeting. "Like" and "um" would be more disconcerting to hear.

 

 

[jet1968]

Oh boy !!!!!!!!! A person could make up a list a mile long.

I guess my biggest thing is Toast Toler.  The biggest, slowest, most un althletic person on the team can do just as well as Toler when it comes to pass coverage. Even I can chase a receiver around and not cover them.  To me he is the worst one to watch and I get frustrated every game watching opposing quarterbacks throw his way play after play

[jet1968]

10 minutes ago, bababooey said:

One of the partners at my firm says "ya know" so much I sometimes tick in my notepad every time it's said in a meeting. "Like" and "um" would be more disconcerting to hear.

 

 

My accountant uses " At this time" after almost every sentence.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Dustin said:

The problem is that Grigson cant really build a football team. Not even on an individual player level, but just as a single entity. The Colts entire teams is constructed of mismatched parts that don't fit together to form a singular identity. There are some good player, but the way the roster is built doesn't make sense on a philosophical level. And a roster that is built this way loses any ability to establish a consistent identity. 

 

If i asked you what the identity of the Colts is, how would you answer? Could you even come up with a response?

 

Well.....    before this year,  I'd say the Colts play hard and they play smart.

 

Then 2015 happened and everything has gone wrong.     Everything.

 

[Dustin]

Just now, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well.....    before this year,  I'd say the Colts play hard and they play smart.

 

Then 2015 happened and everything has gone wrong.     Everything.

 

 

Playing hard isn't an identity. You'd be hard pressed to find a team that doesn't play hard that isn't a bottom feeder. 

 

As far as playing smart, i'd disagree. The Colts have been one of the more penalized and turnover prone teams in Pagano/Grigson tenure. 

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

I get what you're saying, but his successes are greatly overstated. If you look at his resume objectively, it's very average to subpar:

 

Since Luck was an Irsay pick he doesn't get credit for that. Now looking at his entire 4 years here, who have been his best acquisitions be it FA, trade, or draft?

 

Vontae Davis and T.Y. Hilton. And Hilton is a really good player for us, but I wouldn't call him a unique talent where it'll be hard to find another Hilton. Plus WR is a very easy position to upgrade.

 

Now that doesn't mean that everyone else he's acquired has been terrible, but that his best players are a lockdown CB and a good WR. That's not exactly a top tier resume worthy of tons of praise. Sure he managed the cap well and all that stuff, but it's not unusual to manage the cap well in a rebuilding effort. The past few seasons, the Raiders have also been overflowing with cap. Same with the Jags.

 

And look at the O-line in depth. Granted every GM will inherit good players from the previous regime, but two of the best lineman are from the previous regime. Imagine the Colts if we didn't have Castonzo or Reitz. It's scary.

 

My point is that I get that maybe  some people don't give him some credit he deserves, but since 2012 people have greatly overrated Grigson's success as a GM. He's not the worse GM I've seen but he's not really that good, nor has he demonstrated the propensity to be anything more than "serviceable" like most of his players.

 

You're so frustrated with where we are that you are overstating how easy it is to build a loser and understating the good things that he's done.

 

In that world Grigson sucks.       If the job were as easy as you say,  why are the same teams below average to worse no matter who the head coach is, and no matter who the GM is?     Answer that question and you'll begin to see that this job is really, really hard.

 

It'll also make you appreciate just how great New England really is.    They've sustained excellence for roughly 15 years.     Their run has been nothing short of amazing.

[NewColtsFan]

3 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

Playing hard isn't an identity. You'd be hard pressed to find a team that doesn't play hard that isn't a bottom feeder. 

 

As far as playing smart, i'd disagree. The Colts have been one of the more penalized and turnover prone teams in Pagano/Grigson tenure. 

 

Playing hard isn't an identity?       This is going to come as a big surprise to people in sports.    If you think most teams really play at the same level of effort,  I'd love to sell you a bridge....

 

One of the years under Grigson/Pagano we were the least penalized team in football.   And if I'm off on that one,  it's not by much.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Playing hard isn't an identity?       This is going to come as a big surprise to people in sports.    If you think most teams really play at the same level of effort,  I'd love to sell you a bridge....

 

One of the years under Grigson/Pagano we were the least penalized team in football.   And if I'm off on that one,  it's not by much.

 

I think in 2012 we played pretty smart, oddly enough it was Luck's rookie season. He turned the ball over quite a bit but in crunch time he didn't much and we never committed dumb penalties then. Of course Arians was the Coach though.

[Dustin]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Playing hard isn't an identity?       This is going to come as a big surprise to people in sports.    If you think most teams really play at the same level of effort,  I'd love to sell you a bridge....

 

One of the years under Grigson/Pagano we were the least penalized team in football.   And if I'm off on that one,  it's not by much.

 

No playing hard is not an "identity". Not in the sense as in when people normally talk about it. I could name you 20+ teams in the NFL that "play hard", but I could only name you a few teams that run a base cover-3 defense with large press corners and rangy linebackers (the Seahawks). I could only name one team who runs an offense  that routinely stretches the field vertically with under-sized deep threats and doesn't use tight ends or runningbacks much in the pass game (Arizona). Those teams have identities. 

 

 

Quote

 

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

No playing hard is not an "identity". Not in the sense as in when people normally talk about it. I could name you 20+ teams in the NFL that "play hard", but I could only name you a few teams that run a base cover-3 defense with large press corners and rangy linebackers (the Seahawks). I could only name one team who runs an offense  that routinely stretches the field vertically with under-sized deep threats and doesn't use tight ends or runningbacks much in the pass game (Arizona). Those teams have identities. 

 

 

 

Let me put it another way......

 

I'll give you props that you're the first here to note that a large chunk of our success is based on wins in the AFC South.     

 

That said,  we did sweep the good teams we faced in 2013 (Seattle, SF,  Denver, KC x2)  and we've won 3 playoff games.      So we ARE beating some quality teams.

 

Let me ask you,  how are we doing that?    We all know we don't have a very talented roster, and it's been that way every year under the new regime.    And it's not just Andrew Luck.      If you want to say other teams are playing hard -- fine.    But the Colts are playing harder and smarter when we're beating better teams.   And that's a credit to Chuck and the coaching staff and to Grigson for bringing in the right type of people.

 

[Superman]

12 hours ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

I am not too happy about 50% in free agency, not the way this went. 

 

Well, 50% is about what you're gonna get in free agency. Maybe less. Doesn't matter what caliber of free agent you're bringing in -- role player, starter, etc. -- you're gonna be hard pressed to hit on half of them. This is historical. 

 

It's also not entirely true that the six guys we're talking about were meant to be starters and serious contributors. Herremans was a depth signing. Gore was to be part of a platoon. Lowery was to compete for a starting spot, which he won. Yeah, they wanted all of them to come in and help the team, but I don't think the hopes of this team in 2015 were hung upon these free agents. Langford is probably the most critical one, and he's played reasonably well. 

 

As for Grigson targeting older players, I heard his interview. He wasn't fully serious when he said that, at least that was my impression. I took his point to mean that he wasn't ruling out older players anymore, and was fine making commitments to proven, professional vets. Not that he was purposely looking to add older guys. That was my read on it.

 

I'd rather have Searcy (not having a great year), Crabtree and McPhee. Nothing wrong with being critical of our offseason. I just don't mind the age issue. 

[bababooey]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Let me put it another way......

 

I'll give you props that you're the first here to note that a large chunk of our success is based on wins in the AFC South.     

 

That said,  we did sweep the good teams we faced in 2013 (Seattle, SF,  Denver, KC x2)  and we've won 3 playoff games.      So we ARE beating some quality teams.

 

Let me ask you,  how are we doing that?    We all know we don't have a very talented roster, and it's been that way every year under the new regime.    And it's not just Andrew Luck.      If you want to say other teams are playing hard -- fine.    But the Colts are playing harder and smarter when we're beating better teams.   And that's a credit to Chuck and the coaching staff and to Grigson for bringing in the right type of people.

 

What better teams???? The bolded section was 2 seasons ago. Since that win over Denver in Peyton's homecoming they have been the only elite team we have beaten since. KC later that year was a high quality comeback (despite they were missing their top guys) but nowhere near an elite team. Denver is the only elite team we have beaten in the last two years. That's a lot of steps backwards.

 

If anything I'm asking how we go from lowest turnovers/lowest penalties to being on the higher side in two years, not giving credit on wins 2 years ago that if we rolled into those games with the team we have now we'd get spanked.

[Superman]

3 hours ago, Dustin said:

The problem is that Grigson cant really build a football team. Not even on an individual player level, but just as a single entity. The Colts entire teams is constructed of mismatched parts that don't fit together to form a singular identity. There are some good player, but the way the roster is built doesn't make sense on a philosophical level. And a roster that is built this way loses any ability to establish a consistent identity. 

 

If i asked you what the identity of the Colts is, how would you answer? Could you even come up with a response?

 

I don't think they're mismatched parts. I just don't think they've worked out.

 

Had Grigson's efforts to build an offensive line been more successful, if Richardson didn't bust, and had Pep Hamilton been better, the offense would be good at running the ball, good at play action, and explosive in the passing game. If Landry and Werner worked out, the defense would be physical and aggressive up front, and rangy and hard hitting on the back end. I could use other examples as well, but I think I understand the staff's intentions as the team has been built.

 

The identity of this team has been undermined by failed efforts to establish that identity. And as those failures have compounded, the team has stalled out. Add in injuries to critical players, and we're giving up 51 points to the Jaguars.

 

Long and short, I don't have a problem with the philosophy with which this team was built, not the way I understand it. I have a problem with the execution of the plan, particularly the scouting.

[NewColtsFan]

35 minutes ago, bababooey said:

What better teams???? The bolded section was 2 seasons ago. Since that win over Denver in Peyton's homecoming they have been the only elite team we have beaten since. KC later that year was a high quality comeback (despite they were missing their top guys) but nowhere near an elite team. Denver is the only elite team we have beaten in the last two years. That's a lot of steps backwards.

 

If anything I'm asking how we go from lowest turnovers/lowest penalties to being on the higher side in two years, not giving credit on wins 2 years ago that if we rolled into those games with the team we have now we'd get spanked.

 

I was speaking about the 4-year Big Picture,  not this year.      This year is a disaster.

 

As to last year,  the Colts beat the Ravens and Cincy x2, plus Denver at Denver in the playoffs.

 

If you want to discount all the other games,  that's your right,  but somehow you're managing to make winning 13 games a nothing achievement,  and I think that should stop you dead in your tracks.     It won't, but I think it should.

 

Your attitude is those 13 wins aren't very impressive because there weren't enough elite teams on the schedule.   Hey,  all you can do is beat the teams on your schedule.    

 

Your complaining about a team that was nearly razed top to bottom in 11 & 12, and all they've done is make the playoffs the first three years of Grigson's time here and go further in the playoffs each year.

 

If you look back at my original post,  all I said was people should not be saying Grigson doesn't know what he's doing.     I didn't say Grigson is great, or even very good.    But he's made enough mistakes that it may cost him his job.    Maybe he gets another shot with another team,  or maybe not.....    no way to know....

 

[bababooey]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I was speaking about the 4-year Big Picture,  not this year.      This year is a disaster.

 

As to last year,  the Colts beat the Ravens and Cincy x2, plus Denver at Denver in the playoffs.

 

If you want to discount all the other games,  that's your right,  but somehow you're managing to make winning 13 games a nothing achievement,  and I think that should stop you dead in your tracks.     It won't, but I think it should.

 

Your attitude is those 13 wins aren't very impressive because there weren't enough elite teams on the schedule.   Hey,  all you can do is beat the teams on your schedule.    

 

Your complaining about a team that was nearly razed top to bottom in 11 & 12, and all they've done is make the playoffs the first three years of Grigson's time here and go further in the playoffs each year.

 

If you look back at my original post,  all I said was people should not be saying Grigson doesn't know what he's doing.     I didn't say Grigson is great, or even very good.    But he's made enough mistakes that it may cost him his job.    Maybe he gets another shot with another team,  or maybe not.....    no way to know....

 

I didn't say the win total wasn't impressive. It is. Even considering how bad our division is, record 16 consecutive wins is something to be proud of. The team was razed top to bottom in 11 and 12 and immediately could have won a SB had they been able to get past one particular team. I don't think Grigson shouldn't get another shot, but I think his time here is up as many happen to believe he could have done things differently. That's for another thread when the season is over.

 

Until this year Cincy has never been an elite team. Remember week 3 last year when Cincy was "the most complete team" in football and then the Pats whooped them after they got killed in Kansas City. We did play the Ravens tough who had a strong year as well. Aside from the Denver wins this year and last year we also had:

 

Last year: 

Give up 31 to Denver, 30 to Philly, 51 to Pitt, 42 to NE, 42 to Dallas, and 45 to Ne. Only the first two did we actually have chances to win. No wins over elite teams minus Denver in the playoffs.

 

Year before (same year we beat SF, Seattle, Denver - all elite teams):

Lose to the Dolphins and Chargers playing like garbage, get blown out by giving up 38 to the Rams, 40 to the Cardinals, 42 to the Bengals. Luckily beat the depleted Chiefs in the playoffs by one point by scoring 45 then getting blown out and giving up 43 to NE.

 

I don't need to go in depth for this year. One signature win over an elite team. Our non-Denver signature wins are getting further and further away from us with every passing week. Jacksonville and Tennesee all have young playmakers that are a great core and we can no longer rely on 6 wins a year.

 

You act like it's a bad thing to complain when we've seen ourselves beating elite teams a year after the rebuild while committing little turnovers and penalties to getting blown out multiple times a year, beating nobody elite outside of Peyton, and committing the most turnovers and penalties in the span of 2 seasons. If you aren't complaining then you aren't paying attention.

[Mjølner]

22 hours ago, krunk said:

He's obviously not that high on Smith it seems to allow a guy freshly called up from injury waivers to just come in and start over DJ.  I known Brown was here in the offseason, but come on you drafted this kid in the 3rd round and he's got talent. Let the kid get his feet wet.

 

I'm in complete agreement with you. This is something I simply can not understand either. Sure, he got burned a whole lot in TC, but then if I remember correctly, reports also said they were teaching him to not only play man, but all kinds of positions.

When Toler went down I was kinda happy actually. Sure, we'd most likely be worse at CB (I guess..), but at least I would get to watch some more from Smith. Then they pick up Brown the week of, and have him start?! Throw the kid into the fire and get a glimpse of what you've got, for heavens sake! Needless to say I was disappointed.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, bababooey said:

I didn't say the win total wasn't impressive. It is. Even considering how bad our division is, record 16 consecutive wins is something to be proud of. The team was razed top to bottom in 11 and 12 and immediately could have won a SB had they been able to get past one particular team. I don't think Grigson shouldn't get another shot, but I think his time here is up as many happen to believe he could have done things differently. That's for another thread when the season is over.

 

Until this year Cincy has never been an elite team. Remember week 3 last year when Cincy was "the most complete team" in football and then the Pats whooped them after they got killed in Kansas City. We did play the Ravens tough who had a strong year as well. Aside from the Denver wins this year and last year we also had:

 

Last year: 

Give up 31 to Denver, 30 to Philly, 51 to Pitt, 42 to NE, 42 to Dallas, and 45 to Ne. Only the first two did we actually have chances to win. No wins over elite teams minus Denver in the playoffs.

 

Year before (same year we beat SF, Seattle, Denver - all elite teams):

Lose to the Dolphins and Chargers playing like garbage, get blown out by giving up 38 to the Rams, 40 to the Cardinals, 42 to the Bengals. Luckily beat the depleted Chiefs in the playoffs by one point by scoring 45 then getting blown out and giving up 43 to NE.

 

I don't need to go in depth for this year. One signature win over an elite team. Our non-Denver signature wins are getting further and further away from us with every passing week. Jacksonville and Tennesee all have young playmakers that are a great core and we can no longer rely on 6 wins a year.

 

You act like it's a bad thing to complain when we've seen ourselves beating elite teams a year after the rebuild while committing little turnovers and penalties to getting blown out multiple times a year, beating nobody elite outside of Peyton, and committing the most turnovers and penalties in the span of 2 seasons. If you aren't complaining then you aren't paying attention.

 

This whole exchange -- not just with you, but other posters -- is because I've said you can't say Grigson doesn't know what he's doing.    And I said that because the Colts have won enough on his watch to earn that right.

 

I didn't say he was great or even very good.  

 

But he's won enough to say he's a good GM.    

 

I don't know if he'll keep his job, but if he does,  he's got to have a winning/playoff caliber season next year.

I doubt Irsay would allow back to back years of what we're watching this year.

 

Now the question is.......   will Irsay let go of Grigson when he lets go of Pagano?

 

 

[bababooey]

6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

This whole exchange -- not just with you, but other posters -- is because I've said you can't say Grigson doesn't know what he's doing.    And I said that because the Colts have won enough on his watch to earn that right.

 

I didn't say he was great or even very good.  

 

But he's won enough to say he's a good GM.    

 

I don't know if he'll keep his job, but if he does,  he's got to have a winning/playoff caliber season next year.

I doubt Irsay would allow back to back years of what we're watching this year.

 

Now the question is.......   will Irsay let go of Grigson when he lets go of Pagano?

 

 

I know Grigson knows what he's doing. Problem is what he's doing isn't right. He's hit some homers and he's been burned badly. It could be a worse. At least our cap isn't like New Orleans. I think Irsay cleans house honestly. Sunday is a bad loss not soon to be forgotten.

[TheRustonRifle#7]

My biggest grievance has been one that has haunted Indy through this regime....it seems too often that the team either comes out uninspired and clueless or gets completely destroyed in the second half and gives up? Pick whomever to blame but it is a problem.

[Defjamz26]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You're so frustrated with where we are that you are overstating how easy it is to build a loser and understating the good things that he's done.

 

In that world Grigson sucks.       If the job were as easy as you say,  why are the same teams below average to worse no matter who the head coach is, and no matter who the GM is?     Answer that question and you'll begin to see that this job is really, really hard.

 

It'll also make you appreciate just how great New England really is.    They've sustained excellence for roughly 15 years.     Their run has been nothing short of amazing.

 

Hardet circumstances. The Browns play in a division with the Steelers, Ravens, and Bengals. Also the lack of a franchise QB. It's essential to building a great team.

 

Name a team with a legit franchise QB that consistently struggles. Not maybe one or 2 down seasons, but a team that's bad for a number of years?

 

His job was easier than most. Landed the best QB prospect in the last 10 years in a weak division that at the time was filled with what? Yup, teams with no franchise QBs. He walked into the job with a franchise QB and franchise LT as well. But the losing record outside of the division drives my point home.

 

 

[TheRustonRifle#7]

18 hours ago, rockywoj said:

- a poor offensive scheme / design

 

- a perpetually deficient defense

 

- Coby Fleener - I think he plays slow and plodding and couldn't make a first defender miss if his life depended on it (or we have an offensive scheme that simply sucks at using whatever talent he supposedly has).  

 

- Dwayne Allen - that we don't use him properly to take advantage of his talent, which I perceive as being much higher than Fleener's. 

 

- the OL generally always being the weakest link

 

- stupid penalties (like blocking in the back on punt returns)

 

- horrible punt coverage

 

- people that don't realize how good Frank Gore actually (still) is

 

- That we opted not to bring back Reggie Wayne for one last year (assuming he was going to be back to 100% healthy by the time the season started), thus instead signing Andre Johnson, whom is a big downgrade as compared to a healthy Reggie Wayne. 

 

- that Luck rarely throws with the accuracy of Peyton Manning (though, especially this year, that might be blamed on the poor OL / bad offensive design).

 

- using Griff Whalen as a primary punt returner

 

- not using Griff Whalen more as a 3rd down outlet receiver

 

- that Bjorn Werner has turned out to be such a bust

 

- that every year the Colts suffer too many key injuries

 

- that Bert Jones does not receive the universal acclaim that he deserved, because of a premature end due to injury.  He was one of the best QBs off all-time, while he played. 

No argument here ;)

[LockeDown]

It could be worse, we could be the Saints.....oh, wait....they beat us....and we want their coach.  

[Superman]

59 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

Hardet circumstances. The Browns play in a division with the Steelers, Ravens, and Bengals. Also the lack of a franchise QB. It's essential to building a great team.

 

Name a team with a legit franchise QB that consistently struggles. Not maybe one or 2 down seasons, but a team that's bad for a number of years?

 

His job was easier than most. Landed the best QB prospect in the last 10 years in a weak division that at the time was filled with what? Yup, teams with no franchise QBs. He walked into the job with a franchise QB and franchise LT as well. But the losing record outside of the division drives my point home.

 

So many disagreements here.

 

1) The Browns are mismanaged. It's not playing in a tough division, it's not not having a QB. They have been bad since they've been in existence. All of the other three teams in that division have had down years and then bounced back, including the Bengals who were once a doormat. The Browns could have had Dalton, as a matter of fact. And they don't have a great coach; Marvin Lewis is firmly average. The Colts are not the Browns, and wouldn't be the Browns if they were in the AFC North (where they should be, geographically). 

 

2) The Colts don't struggle consistently. Not sure if you were implying that they do...

 

3) Grigson's job wasn't easy at all. That's ridiculous. He took over a team that was devoid of talent, and was asked to make them a championship contender. He only picked at the top of the draft once, and had to take a QB, so didn't get the other high picks that would put talent around that QB that other teams usually get. He had cap issues. His coach got sick. He had to replace the OC after one season. There was nothing easy about this job, and the Colts did more in three years than anyone expected them to when Grigson and Pagano were hired.

 

None of that is to say that it's not fair to criticize him for his mistakes. But you are entirely misrepresenting the situation.

[Superman]

9 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

It could be worse, we could be the Saints.....oh, wait....they beat us....and we want their coach.  

 

Not sure why Sean Payton is so popular among Colts fans. The Saints have completely fallen apart in the last four years.

[Nesjan3]

The overall failure of what we originally set out to do, build a championship team to dethrone the Pats and contend for a championship. Last year was our best shot with this regime as we have degressed greatly, and yet we got pummeled once again at the hands of Brady and Belicheck. Grigson and Pags gave it the old kick at the can but ultimately failed. Time to hit the reset button and hopefully in 3 years Brady will be retired and we will be where we want to be.